Spanish are blaming their Government, Italians are blaming their Government, Germany is blaming Italy, France has now said their case was in December 2019 so that could hold them guilty..
Blame does not help the bereaved in any way what so ever, but if there has to be blame, then it's time to stand up to World Governments who allow cross contamination through peculiar, cruel and archaic methods of medicine, which incidentally, WHO gave clearance to China for such things . So, what do you think China is doing now ? Administering medicine for Covid 19 made from bear bile ! Those are the things we need to be challenging, preventing cross contamination , and various other flu epidemics that always rise in the East . That's some indication of where the blame should lie, every time .
As a matter of interest, what would you have changed or been able to change in this specific process of dealing with Covid 19.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
WHO is an advisory body, they cannot give "clearance" for anything. They have been working hard in China to classify traditional medicines because some work and some don't (much the same as some of our NHS drugs). WHO's role is to educate people and Governments, they have no legislative powers.
I'm waiting for the RSPCA to be blamed for Coronavirus, I'm sure that one will be in the wings.
Things that should have been done different ....
Not got rid of our national reserves of PPE, the Government's own reports showed a continual necessity for it. It was only a pittance in the Government's budget.
Put the NHS in charge of Coronavirus instead of Public Health England. The only reason PHE exists is in readiness to be the Ombudsman when the NHS is privatised, their role wasn't related to what had to be done with Coronavirus.
Got the Coronavirus acute units running up earlier and run by specialists.
Not downgraded the classification of Coronavirus - this meant non-acute units were having to deal with it and worse still, the relevant specialist weren't at hand in many hospitals which were landed with the disease. Most hospitals had not even come across wide bore ventilation before and numerous mistakes were made because of lack of experience.
Locked down earlier - we had much more notice than other countries of the severity but threw that lead away in some weird hope that it wouldn't hit us - valuable time was lost.
Locked down flights, we were one of the few Countries that didn't, there was no testing and no isolation.
Stopped the Cheltenham Festival and the Spanish football match in Liverpool going ahead - that was crazy.
Spent some money on ways to protect care-homes - from day one the assumption was that old and vulnerable people were going to get thrown to the dogs. Old people with Coronavirus were being sent back to the care homes from Hospitals - if that isn't attempted manslaughter, what is?
Got the armed forces in to help with deliveries from shops, it has become very clear that shopping is probably the most hazardous thing people can do, delivering food is less hazardous to everybody.
Got testing in place early, if you want to play games of statistics and "scientific evidence" then you need data to play with.
Be clearer on lockdown (and other) rules, in an emergency all instructions have to be crystal clear and not breach common sense without an explanation.
You want more?
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
OK so we'll correct the word 'clearance' and replace it with 'recognised'
According to Reuters, as of May 2019, China has set up a multi-decade plan to promote TCM. It includes hospitals, museums, medicinal zoos, and botanical gardens.
UN : NATURE IS SENDING US A MESSAGE’ says United Nations’ environment chief, Inger Andersen, discussing the current COVID-19 pandemic, the latest in a line of recent environmental impacts. The increasing number of human infectious disease outbreaks includes Ebola, bird flu, Mers, Rift Valley fever, Sars, West Nile virus and Zika virus – all crossed from animals to humans. All the result of human pressures on the earth’s natural systems. Andersen suggests that “our long-term response must tackle habitat and biodiversity lossâ€. Scientists have concluded that it is almost always human actions that causes diseases to spill over from wildlife into humans.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
You can't blame the Chinese for zoonotic diseases, they have been happening since the beginning of time, it is part of nature. It is globalisation that has made them a problem, that makes the difference between a small local epidemic and a pandemic.
Not all TCM is animal based, the article fails to mention that, some of it isn't any form of substance eg acupuncture.
WHO have not completed the classifications yet as to which treatments are effective and which are not, it is a work in progress, the articles are jumping ahead of reality. It would be silly of WHO to jump the gun in case effective treatments were "condemned".
It is not only China that harvests creatures for medicines, it is also done in the west, we even harvest humans!
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
You can't blame the Chinese for zoonotic diseases, they have been happening since the beginning of time, it is part of nature. It is globalisation that has made them a problem, that makes the difference between a small local epidemic and a pandemic.
Not all TCM is animal based, the article fails to mention that, some of it isn't any form of substance eg acupuncture.
WHO have not completed the classifications yet as to which treatments are effective and which are not, it is a work in progress, the articles are jumping ahead of reality. It would be silly of WHO to jump the gun in case effective treatments were "condemned".
It is not only China that harvests creatures for medicines, it is also done in the west, we even harvest humans!
I will blame China for it's continuation of a practice from archaic dynasties into the 21st century . We all know how cruel the Chinese are.. and do you think that harvesting animals and creatures and human organs even in the West, makes it ethical, right and above scrutiny ? I don't , and we know most of the Asian countries are responsible too, that's why the trafficked animals from Africa ,India and other places are leading to world extinction of so many species, and thus distorting the balance of nature, which we rely upon so much. I can't see how donkeys being poached out of Africa for their skins to make Chinese medicine, (just one example) is beneficial to anyone, and certainly taking the livelihood away from African villagers who have no other mode of transport to collect water and goods. A high percentage of TCM is animal based , but if you think it's ok , then it must be because I seldom hear anyone voice any concerns about it, until of course it all bounces back and hits us. We can turn a blind eye and make excuses for so long, and then because a pandemic takes away our civil liberties everyone starts crying and blaming everyone else.
Look at the way the WORLD is and where it is going..... not just the UK.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
No, the majority of TCM is herbal, you are choosing to focus on one tiny part of it and stereotyping a false image.
My general take on a lot of things like this is that we should clean up our own culture before criticising other cultures. The human race is about 200,000 years old, you can't expect all cultures to develop within a few years of each other.
In a newspaper this would be stated that I condone animal treatment in China but that would be based on conjecture.
Its only fifteen years ago that fox hunting was partially outlawed in this country. Its less than 170 years ago since we abolished slavery, within the lives of some people's grandparents.
Look at the treatment of pet rabbits in this country, something I find appalling. I spent a significant part of my childhood chasing rabbits round fields, to see them cooped up in a small hutch is heart breaking, its not like there is even a function of having them like that.
We have a long way to go but lets clean our own doorstep before slagging off others..
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
As a matter of interest, what would you have changed or been able to change in this specific process of dealing with Covid 19.
I think DD answered most of it granny, in simple terms a plain and ordinary risk assessment to start with, what are the risks, how do we stop / reduce them, what are the priorities, these tasks to be carried out by a competent person(s) Back in January at a meeting of these alleged competent persons were still dithering over what to do, herd immunity, Dominic Cummings suggests the deaths of a few pensioners is acceptable, isolation? loath to take advice from those filthy foreigners in Europe, because we are out now, previous government exercises (Ex Cygnus 2016) revealed issues with the shortage of ppe and ventilators in the highly likely case of a future pandemic (no action taken) yet the government was aware of this in January, no testing ,no tracing, not enough ppe, not enough ventilators, basic needs in the fight against this pandemic, yes I blame them granny as I would blame any government for the deaths of over 28,000 people, one more thing that stuck in my mind, the PM saying he would not stop shaking hands with people, oh the arrogance of it, and thereby lies one of the problems.
I think it is wrong to blame the government, they are just following advice off the scientists
A lot of those scientists are on line screaming at the Government. WHO is full of scientists but the Government ignored their advice, they ignored Chinese scientist's advice and they ignored Italian scientist's advice.
Members of SAGE have complained that Cummings did interfere with their meetings and did try to influence their decisions. He was not just a silent onlooker like the Government has tried to portray him.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I think it is wrong to blame the government, they are just following advice off the scientists
Yes, agreed.
All too easy for the ' couch potatoes' ( :) to be pontificating after the event.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I think it is wrong to blame the government, they are just following advice off the scientists
A lot of those scientists are on line screaming at the Government. WHO is full of scientists but the Government ignored their advice, they ignored Chinese scientist's advice and they ignored Italian scientist's advice.
Members of SAGE have complained that Cummings did interfere with their meetings and did try to influence their decisions. He was not just a silent onlooker like the Government has tried to portray him.
WHO gave the wrong advice in the first instance which UK and others followed. I've already shown the evidence of that previously.
SAGE is a sub- committee of COBRA.
I'm convinced you make it up as you go along. Where to you get all this inside information from ?
Here is a list of the SAGE advisory committee for Covid 19. I hardly think that Cummings attendance would have altered anything.
Sir Patrick Vallance FMedSci FRS, Government Chief Scientific Adviser Professor Chris Whitty CB FMedSci, Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser, Department of Health and Social Care Professor John Aston, Chief Scientific Adviser, Home Office Professor Wendy Barclay FMedSci, Imperial College London Professor Phil Blythe, Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for Transport Professor Ian Boyd FRSE, University of St Andrews Professor Andrew Curran, Chief Scientific Adviser, Health and Safety Executive Dr Gavin Debrera, Public Health England Professor Sir Ian Diamond FRSE FBA, National Statistician, Office for National Statistics Professor Yvonne Doyle CB, Medical Director, Public Health England Professor John Edmunds OBE FMedSci, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine Professor Sir Jeremy Farrar FMedSci FRS, Director, Wellcome Trust Professor Neil Ferguson OBE FMedSci, Imperial College London Dr Aidan Fowler FRCS, National Health Service England Professor Julia Gog, University of Cambridge Dr David Halpern, Behavioural Insights Team, Cabinet Office Dr Jenny Harries OBE, Deputy Chief Medical Officer Dr Demis Hassabis FRS, Personal capacity as a data scientist Professor Peter Horby, University of Oxford Dr Indra Joshi, NHSX Professor Dame Theresa Marteau FMedSci, University of Cambridge Professor Dame Angela McLean FRS, Chief Scientific Adviser, Ministry of Defence Professor Graham Medley, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Professor Andrew Morris FMedSci FRSE, University of Edinburgh Professor Carole Mundell, Chief Scientific Adviser, Foreign and Commonwealth Office Professor Catherine Noakes, University of Leeds Dr Rob Orford, Welsh Government Professor Michael Parker, University of Oxford Professor Sharon Peacock FMedSci, Public Health England Professor Alan Penn, Chief Scientific Adviser, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government Professor Steve Powis FRCP, National Health Service England Dr Mike Prentice, National Health Service England Mr Osama Rahman Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for Education Professor Venki Ramakrishnan PRS, Ex Officio as Chair of DELVE, convened by the Royal Society Professor Andrew Rambaut FRSE, University of Edinburgh Professor Tom Rodden. Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Professor Brooke Rogers OBE, Kings College London Dr James Rubin, Kings College London Professor Calum Semple, University of Liverpool Dr Mike Short CBE, Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for International Trade Dr Gregor Smith, Scottish Government, Chief Medical Officer Professor Sir David Spieglhalter FRS, University of Cambridge Professor Jonathan Van Tam MBE, Deputy Chief Medical Officer Professor Russell Viner PRCPCH, University College London Professor Charlotte Watts CMG FMedSci, Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for International Development Professor Mark Walport FRCP FMedSci FRS, UK Research and Innovation Professor Mark Woolhouse FRSE, University of Edinburgh Professor Lucy Yardley, University of Bristol Professor Ian Young, Northern Ireland Executive Professor Maria Zambon FMedSci, Public Health England
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
No, the majority of TCM is herbal, you are choosing to focus on one tiny part of it and stereotyping a false image.
My general take on a lot of things like this is that we should clean up our own culture before criticising other cultures. The human race is about 200,000 years old, you can't expect all cultures to develop within a few years of each other.
In a newspaper this would be stated that I condone animal treatment in China but that would be based on conjecture.
Its only fifteen years ago that fox hunting was partially outlawed in this country. Its less than 170 years ago since we abolished slavery, within the lives of some people's grandparents.
Look at the treatment of pet rabbits in this country, something I find appalling. I spent a significant part of my childhood chasing rabbits round fields, to see them cooped up in a small hutch is heart breaking, its not like there is even a function of having them like that.
We have a long way to go but lets clean our own doorstep before slagging off others..
Might be your approach, DD but having seen more video footage, images and inhumane activities from that part of the world, I can assure you it would turn any mans stomach upside down, your included. You think fox hunting is bad... just one recent snapshot of Asian practices. This is training for circuses.. gives a clue to other practices they administer .
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
As a matter of interest, what would you have changed or been able to change in this specific process of dealing with Covid 19.
I think DD answered most of it granny, in simple terms a plain and ordinary risk assessment to start with, what are the risks, how do we stop / reduce them, what are the priorities, these tasks to be carried out by a competent person(s) Back in January at a meeting of these alleged competent persons were still dithering over what to do, herd immunity, Dominic Cummings suggests the deaths of a few pensioners is acceptable, isolation? loath to take advice from those filthy foreigners in Europe, because we are out now, previous government exercises (Ex Cygnus 2016) revealed issues with the shortage of ppe and ventilators in the highly likely case of a future pandemic (no action taken) yet the government was aware of this in January, no testing ,no tracing, not enough ppe, not enough ventilators, basic needs in the fight against this pandemic, yes I blame them granny as I would blame any government for the deaths of over 28,000 people, one more thing that stuck in my mind, the PM saying he would not stop shaking hands with people, oh the arrogance of it, and thereby lies one of the problems.
I'll deal with you later Casper.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
This is an update to the WHO advice in relation to the outbreak of the novel coronavirus nCoV, published by WHO on 10 January 2020. Since that date, travel-related cases linked to Wuhan City have been reported in several countries. For details about the current outbreak in China and the exported cases, please refer to the Diseases Outbreak News and the situation reports published by WHO. Health measures related to international traffic The current outbreak originated in Wuhan city, which is a major domestic and international transport hub. Given the large population movements, expected to significantly increase during the Chinese New Year in the last week of January, and the observed human to human transmission, it is not unexpected that new confirmed cases will continue to appear in other areas and countries. With the information currently available for the novel coronavirus, WHO advises that measures to limit the risk of exportation or importation of the disease should be implemented, without unnecessary restrictions of international traffic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_Kingdom 1) As soon as cases appeared in the UK on 31 January 2020, a public health information campaign, similar to the previous "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it" 2) Transmission within the UK was first documented on 28 February. By 1 March, there were cases in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland The government unveiled the Coronavirus Action Plan, and declared the outbreak a "level 4 incident 3)On 10th March 6 people confirmed to have died. 4) On 11 March, the outbreak was declared a pandemic. by WHO 5) On 12th March 8 people had died from Covid 19 in UK 6) by the 14th March, panic buying had gone off the richter scale 7) On 15th March—following the outbreak in Italy] and based on forecasting by epidemiologists at Imperial College London—the government said everyone should avoid all "non-essential" travel and contact with others, avoid crowds, and work from home if possible. Those with symptoms, and their household, were asked to self-isolate. Pregnant women, people over 70, and those with certain health conditions were asked to self-isolate for longer 8) On 20 March, the governments shut all schools, restaurants, pubs, indoor entertainment venues and leisure centres, with some exceptions.\l " 9) On 23 March, the government imposed a lockdown on the whole population, banning all "non-essential" travel and contact with people outside one's home (including family and partners), and shutting almost all businesses, venues, facilities, amenities and places of worship. People were told to keep apart in public. Police were given power to enforce the lockdown, and the Coronavirus Act 2020 gave the government emergency powers not used since the Second World War. 10) 23rd March a shipment arrived UK with PPE supplies .
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...idnt-address-chronically-low-ppe-stocks/ (the following is just some of the article) The answer lies in how the Government planned for the pandemic. After the Civil Contingencies Act was passed in 2004, the first UK influenza pandemic contingency plan was published in October 2005, setting out how Britain would handle a mass infection event. Although it suggested stockpiling antivirals, it made no mention of PPE. The follow up-document, a national framework for responding to an influenza pandemic, was published in 2007 and, for the first time, included guidance that PPE should be provided for health workers. But, crucially, it set out that emergency stockpiles would only be triggered in the event of the World Health Organisation (WHO) declaring a pandemic, and that rule has remained in place ever since. The Government keeps mass stocks of PPE at depots around the country, but Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the WHO director general, did not declare a pandemic until March 11, meaning hospitals could not touch the supplies until then. Government reports also warned that it would take seven to 10 days for the UK-wide distribution of centrally held stocks and said organisations should prepare to rely initially on local supplies. When the coronavirus epidemic began, some hospitals had virtually no PPE supplies – so by the time the first emergency stockpiled equipment began arriving, many had run out entirely at exactly the time case numbers were soaring. By the time the UK influenza pandemic preparedness strategy was published in 2011, the Government had stockpiles of face masks and respirators for health and social care workers in place. However, at this point it was agreed that there would be no stockpiling of PPE outside the NHS – a situation that has remained until today and is now causing major problems. The pandemic stockpile was only designed to supply 226 NHS trusts, not the 58,000 other health and social care providers that desperately need equipment in order to keep people safe. To make matters worse, Public Health England (PHE) has since confirmed that gowns were never included in the national pandemic stockpile of PPE equipment, but said they would be in future. ------------------------------------------ Add to that, the supplies ordered from abroad and despatched were the wrong items on one occassion. The world was and is scratching around for supplies , mostly from China which was in lock down for weeks and therfore supplies were unavailable. Of course that's part of the problem, globalisation and procurement manufacturing of items no longer in the UK. Testing kits ordered were faulty and not suitable. What advice did the ' filthy foreigners' in Europe give us ? I Haven't heard that they did and whatever advice it was, didn;t help them. Maybe we should have all worn niqabs, they seem to have saved the ME, when we look at their data ! We couldn;t get mask, all sold out, but we could have bought M & S thongs. Quite multi-purpose apparently. About 85% of Care Homes are privately run, and charging extortionate amounts for residents on a weekly/monthly basis and they should have had their own stockpiles. Put it all together, and I don;t think your obsession with making Boris the scape goat is valid. Sure there has been some chaos, but so too in all other parts of the world, and when a bunch of dick heads are stopped in Snowdonia last weekend, for having a mini break, where do you think they came from. ? London ! Everyone has had a part to play, and most have abided by the advice, but it is/was advice which clearly others have refused to engage with, as we have seen so many times. I can;t see what else could have been done within the time frame, but maybe you have some more ideas to contribute. Add to that, we don't have the full picture of deaths worldwide yet, and doubt we ever will. Once tourism kicks in again, the Chinese will be first on the planes. Being checked at airports e.g. people saying the weren;t checked here on arrivals in UK, but most countries were checking passengers on outward bound flights and therfore it would not have been needed when arrivals landed just a few hours later in UK . If they arrived after lockdown, they would automatically have gone into self isolation, if they'd played by the rules. Are you going to download the App for tracking , Casper.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I wouldn't dream of making Boris ( notable by his continuing absence) a scapegoat, that's his game, no doubt those bright shiny faces on the news will be victims should some truth emerge about how things should have been dealt with,I know Boris holds the NHS in very high esteem, so much so that the lack of PPE is not to be sited as a contributing factor in the unfortunate deaths of medical staff due to Covid 19 the magic marker is already in play, deny deny deny, meanwhile the death toll now the highest in Europe is still rising, If I remember rightly weren't we offered a choice with the Europeans to purchase PPE, a statement was then made by a representative that this was refused because of a political decision, this was then denied, then the next day, the missed opportunity was put down to a miscommunication, oh no it wasn't, oh yes it was, Jesus they can't even lie properly, as to people breaking the self isolation rule, then what would a risk assessment say? the measures in place are not working, next step strengthen measures,mmm bit of a problem here not enough police old boy, what about the army? didn't we run them down too?
Anyhow rant over, yes I will download the app granny anything to assist, still love you xx
:) to be pontificating after the event.
