Welcome to WikiWirral, sharing is what we do best.
Forum Statistics
Forums65
Topics76,371
Posts1,033,342
Members14,588
Most Online16,551
Feb 2nd, 2024
Who's Online Now
9 members (3 invisible), 10,629 guests, and 552 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters
sunnyside 45,164
MattLFC 22,315
Mark 21,269
granny 17,791
_Ste_ 16,345
Newest Members
EricB, H2OH2O, Jasontodd, jamiemc75, Bunny
14,588 Registered Users
New General Forums
Hi to everyone
by PaulRobson - 15th Apr 2024 1:18pm
Last person to post wins...
by GaryB - 9th Oct 2007 9:15pm
New Wirral History
Through the Window: GWR Paddington to Birkenhead
by yoller - 16th Aug 2017 7:09pm
Possible crop marks in Landican?
by tomstevens - 21st Apr 2010 4:53pm
Top Posters(30 Days)
casper 4
lincle 4
granny 3
Topic Replies
garage wanted
by robin47 - 3rd May 2024 5:53pm
Looking for an old engine
by diggingdeeper - 3rd May 2024 2:36pm
Restaurant/pub with outdoor seating - Bromborough
by capitulinagarage - 3rd May 2024 12:55pm
What song are you listening to?
by GaryFromWirral - 3rd May 2024 5:36am
Plastic sheds
by muzzy2 - 2nd May 2024 2:41pm
Hi to everyone
by casper - 30th Apr 2024 6:59pm
turkish sofa
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 8:24pm
italian furniture
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 7:07pm
leather sofa set
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 4:47pm
May
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
casper 1
Top Likes Received
bert1 14
casper 4
Mark 4
granny 3
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 10 of 25 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 24 25
Erainn #474028 17th Feb 2011 8:25am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,632
Likes: 14
Wiki Veteran
Offline
Wiki Veteran
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,632
Likes: 14
Referring back to Pinz's thoughts and memories, I can as a child remember flooding and a fast flowing Fender, obviously after heavy rainfall, anyone who tried to play football or rugby on the bottom pitches at Woodchurch school or the community center will testify to that, knee deep in mud springs to mind. As the coastal defences where well in place by then, that flooding was caused by the water coming from up high, Noctorum, Oxton, etc. All that is not getting the baby washed.
Back to the Main Fender/Birket, I've always assumed it was a natural water course which led to the River Fender/ Ford Brook, or should that be the Fjord Brook. If the name Fender was used for a defensive barrier and not as a natural river name, am i being silly thinking its being suggested it was dug out by some medieval navvies. If so, when the break through came about and connection to the Birket, the whole stretch adopted the name Birket. As for the Ford Brook being changed to The River Fender, is the river named after the valley it sits in or is the valley named after the river that flows through it?


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Google Ads
Erainn #474029 17th Feb 2011 8:57am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
Forum Veteran
Online Content
Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,210
found this on googlebooks using fender as search word
It appears that the word fender is used quite a bit for raised banks of rivers
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bk...onepage&q=river%20fender&f=false

Attached Images
fender.jpg (81.58 KB, 316 downloads)
bert1 #474038 17th Feb 2011 10:03am
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Erainn Offline OP
Smartchild
OP Offline
Smartchild
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Interesting to note that information. Is there evidence of such constructions along the course of the River Fender? Moreover is a date known for such banks?


Last edited by Erainn; 17th Feb 2011 10:07am.
bert1 #474039 17th Feb 2011 10:08am
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Erainn Offline OP
Smartchild
OP Offline
Smartchild
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
With you on those questions, it is, to my albeit limited knowledge, unusual for a river to be named at some medieval/post-medieval or even later period, and then after an artificial construction. More so when considering that other nearby rivers, equally prone to flood, retained an original name unconnected with river management. As to naming, my understanding is a valley takes its name from the river, hence Wye Valley etc

Geekus #474240 17th Feb 2011 6:02pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 376
Likes: 1
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 376
Likes: 1
This has been a fascinating and informative thread. My interest is in the Birket/Fender (I don’t know the Ford/Fender area well enough to comment. I've done a bit of reading up and would like to throw in my two penn’orth.

From what I’ve read here and found in old books I’ve come round to the idea that the name Fender was descriptive of its purpose rather than a river name, i.e. that it was an ancient sea defence and outfall (see the posts by geekus) based on a stream which conveniently emptied into Wallasey Pool. In his book ‘A History of Wirral’ Stephen Roberts states “The river was named Birket after Birkenhead by the Ordnance Survey in the 19th century. Its course has been altered by man, but the strange way in which it runs parallel to the north coast, rather than emptying into the Irish Sea, is thought to be natural and a result of the sand-dune barrier”. I have been unable to find any old maps with it being called the River Fender (17th and 18th century maps seem to show rivers without naming them). The only time Fender is shown, is on the early 19th century map provided by bertione when it is called ‘The Main Fender’. Again, could this be descriptive – if it was a river name, why ‘Main’ when at that time there was no other River Fender on the Wirral?

If Roberts is right and the Ordnance Survey named the river The Birket after Birkenhead (incidentally the river is variously called Birkett, Birken and Birkin in subsequent documents), the questions are when? and why? The earliest reference I can find was written in 1838: “From the confined nature of the Hundred of Wirral there is only one stream of any importance, and that is very small; it has however obtained the name of the Birkin; it rises at Newton Carr, and runs along Bidston Marsh, to which it forms a drain falling into Wallasey Pool.” (A Flora of Liverpool, by T.B. Hall).

Shortly before he wrote this, there had been a major development – the building of the Wallasey Embankment which started in 1829, “to prevent the low-lying lands of Meols, Moreton, Leasowe, Bidston and Overchurch from inundation by the sea in consequence of the continual erosion of the sand dunes and the injury likely to arise therefrom to the Port of Liverpool” (Rise and Progress of Wallasey). It could be that from this date the Main Fender was no longer required for its defensive purposes and its name became irrelevant and inappropriate. After perhaps many centuries as a fender, it then reverted to being a rather insignificant river that had no name and Ordnance Survey created one.

I have not been able to find any specific references to ‘our’ Fender prior to the 19th century. However, along with many other duties, the Wallasey Improvement Act of 1845 gave responsibility to the Commissioners for main drainage. Two of the drains were fixed as “one of which to follow the ancient fence dividing the said tract called Wallasey Pasture from the Wallasey Leasowe; and one running in a southwardly direction to the ancient fender or watercourse running from Newton Carr towards Wallasey”. Note the ‘ancient’, and ‘fender’ spelt without a proper name capital letter.

That there had been problems with flooding and coastal erosion in this area is not in doubt. In a report made by William Chapman in 1813 he states that the first embankment (or ‘slope wall’) had been built in 1794 and this had needed replacing two or three times, each time further inland. An interesting comment in his report which might be relevant was “The winds and tides in October last year [1812], with only a 16-ft tide, tore up the last slope wall, constructed to defend the shore, and not only prostrated that work but advanced upon the land from ten to twelve yards for an extent of nearly 2,000 yards. This overflow, had it not been for the short period at which the tide continued at its height, would have perfectly inundated the low grounds. As it was, considerable damage was occasioned, and the water on the fall of the tide passed off through the sluices into Wallasey Pool”. The last sentence is particularly interesting as it seems to indicate that a water management or control scheme was in place.

Another interesting comment is contained in a letter from Sir Edward Cust (who lived in Leasowe Castle and must have been affected by flooding) to the Mayor of Liverpool in 1828. The letter was written to try to get the Liverpool Corporation interested in building an embankment at Leasowe on the basis that floodwaters were carrying silt into the Mersey via Wallasey Pool which could have a detrimental effect on the shipping channels in the Mersey which Liverpool depended on for its existence. He talks about “…the common danger…from the great dip of the land towards ‘The Fender’ [the apostrophes are his] which would convey any irruption of waters into the Mersey”.

It could be that the position of the Main Fender, running parallel to the coast and feeding into Wallasey Pool, had been used from early times as a defence against flooding and perhaps as part of an early land reclamation scheme (when did Overchurch stop being ‘The Church on the Shore’?) . Later, as the natural defences - the sandhills - became more eroded and flooding more regular, the fender was gradually strengthened and upgraded to initially prevent the spread of flooding and then to channel the water to Wallasey Pool via Warrington’s Bridge where it is known that a system of sluices had been in place since about 1738.

A lot of this is, of course, conjecture and hopefully other older resources will come to light. Still, it’s been an interesting exercise to keep the old grey cells of an armchair historian working!




nightwalker #474254 17th Feb 2011 7:25pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,632
Likes: 14
Wiki Veteran
Offline
Wiki Veteran
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,632
Likes: 14
An excellent post Nightwalker and like all the posts in this thread, very informative and plausible, my thoughts now go to the present day River Fender (Ford Brook), dare we suggest this River was named after an ancient embankment or purley coincidental. In fact, we still don't know why the name changed in the first place, more research i fear.


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
nightwalker #474260 17th Feb 2011 8:22pm
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Erainn Offline OP
Smartchild
OP Offline
Smartchild
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
That's excellent information and illuminating insights offered.

bert1 #474262 17th Feb 2011 8:26pm
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Erainn Offline OP
Smartchild
OP Offline
Smartchild
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Well for sure that's an option, there are equally tempting possible origins, meanwhile if defensive river banks are the source of the name, is there evidence to be found for such structures along the course of the river? Also do we know any documentation, historical or archeological that testifies to when such structures were raised?

Erainn #474323 17th Feb 2011 11:03pm
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Floodgates are clearly shown on the 1665 map, located at the upper reaches of Wallasey Pool (roughly in the area of Reeds Bridge/Leasowe Common). They are specifically labelled as 'Floodgates'.

A number of other structures are also visible crossing the watercourse at regular intervals between Leasowe and Moreton but these are not labelled.

The map is generally accepted as dating from 1665 but some copies bare a cartouche with the date 1656.

Geekus #474332 17th Feb 2011 11:13pm
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Erainn Offline OP
Smartchild
OP Offline
Smartchild
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 562
Apart from more obvious coast-based defences, no indication of embankments, or similar noted by that map along the course of the river itself, more inland?

Last edited by Erainn; 17th Feb 2011 11:18pm.
Erainn #474467 18th Feb 2011 12:46am
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
...I only have a very poor quality photocopy of the Wallasey & Leasowe parts of the estate map. Can't see any indication of embankments but there are one or two fairly large ditches - one of which is labelled 'Moore Ditch' and is shown located directly between what is now Leasowe Castle and the township of Moreton. One of the gate-like structures shown across the watercourse is indicated just before this ditch. I wonder if the name Moore Ditch indicates that this was Moreton's ditch?

A large part of Bidston is shown enclosed by walls. It's common knowledge, of course, that Bidston had an ancient deer park.

The ancient fence mentioned by nightwalker may possibly have been a feature of the Wallasey Race Course which existed in the 18th Century and which stretched between Wallasey Village & Leasowe. This fence is clearly shown on a later map of Wallasey from 1735.

I do, however, recall seeing indications of an 'ancient' embankment around the Bidston end of Wallasey Pool, shown on some of the early plans for the enclosure of the Pool. I can't recall off the top of my head exactly which plans they are but, if I remember I'll let you all know another time.

Snodvan #475363 20th Feb 2011 1:43am
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3
Beginner
Offline
Beginner
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3
just registered/logged on haven't worked out how to use the site yet. I am doing some local history with children. Do you have anything on The Mount big house which I understand stood at the top of the hill on Mount Road and/or can you tell me what was on the corner plot of Hamilton Road before Mount Primary was built in the early 1950'x Any help would be well received,

Erainn #475615 20th Feb 2011 8:03pm
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
Forum Addict
Offline
Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,195
..'s excellent web-site of old Wallasey includes many interesting old photographs of the area. Just noticed one particular one of Leasowe (taken from the top of Leasowe Lighthouse) which shows a property named Bankfield House. It's only a stone's throw from the Birket, so I can't help but wonder if the house was named after an earlier field named the 'Bank Field'? In which case, this may provide some of the evidence you're looking for concerning flood defences.

Erainn #475654 20th Feb 2011 10:24pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 10,000
Awesome
Wiki Master
Offline
Awesome
Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 10,000
May be worth checking tithe maps... looks like it has always been called Bankfield House (map of 1874)

Attached Images
bankfield.jpg (66.78 KB, 141 downloads)
Last edited by Snooze; 20th Feb 2011 10:29pm.
Erainn #475667 20th Feb 2011 11:22pm
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,024
Forum Guide
Offline
Forum Guide
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,024
Some excellent work being done on this ladies and gentlemen thank you,I've just been catching up,I do remember the "Fender" from the railway bridge,Woodchurch rd to Upton when I was a lad it was a natural watercourse,with natural banks, it was then about three feet from the water to the top of the bank with the water about 6" in summer,it varied from about 4ft to 10ft wide,apart from further towards Upton by the railway footbridge it was higher due to a hillock and had running water even in a hot summer,I can remember in the seventies I think ,they used one of those drag line cranes and deepened and widened it out of all recognition, not sure if they carried on all the way,as that time I was elsewhere and was just visiting.

Last edited by davew3; 20th Feb 2011 11:26pm.
Page 10 of 25 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 24 25

Moderated by  Mod 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
garage wanted
by robin47 - 3rd May 2024 5:53pm
Plastic sheds
by muzzy2 - 2nd May 2024 2:41pm
turkish sofa
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 8:24pm
italian furniture
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 7:07pm
leather sofa set
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 4:47pm
For Sale & Free
Member Spotlight
TheComputerLab
TheComputerLab
Wallasey
Posts: 1,317
Joined: May 2011
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
New Wirral Info
Help Needed for Virginia Creeper Removal
by Rinchen - 28th Apr 2024 2:08pm
Wanted Gardener
by dodie - 24th Apr 2024 1:09pm
Plymyard House
by Granada - 23rd Apr 2024 2:35pm
recommendation, please
by muzzy2 - 16th Apr 2024 7:39pm
Traffic Wardens
by Excoriator - 11th Apr 2024 4:11pm
News : New Topics
turkish sofa
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 8:24pm
italian furniture
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 7:07pm
leather sofa set
by Jasontodd - 29th Apr 2024 4:47pm
West Kirby flood defences
by Excoriator - 10th Apr 2024 10:45pm
Sunak and Reality
by diggingdeeper - 4th Jan 2023 12:56am
New Enthusiast Forums
garage wanted
by robin47 - 3rd May 2024 5:53pm
Plastic sheds
by muzzy2 - 2nd May 2024 2:41pm
Looking for an old engine
by TheComputerLab - 27th Apr 2024 3:11pm
Pigeon breeder
by lincle - 22nd Apr 2024 8:17am
Car paint jobs
by PaulRobson - 15th Apr 2024 9:54pm
Popular Topics(Views)
5,072,339 WIKI WALK CHAT
4,019,349 Spotted!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5