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Bromborough Ju88 incident #847278
2nd Jan 2014 4:09pm
2nd Jan 2014 4:09pm
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mikeeb Offline OP

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Just found a fascinating book online regarding the shooting down of the Ju88 german bomber Click here

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Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847282
2nd Jan 2014 4:39pm
2nd Jan 2014 4:39pm
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birkenhead
mikeeb Offline OP

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Originally Posted by billy anorak59
Did you ever get an answer to this one? (My father lived very nearby and actually witnessed the crash as a 12 year old - he knows precisely where it ended up, because he 'liberated' the wingtip and made off with it - it included the landing light, the bulb stated - 'OSRAM Made in England'!!!. It's been lost over the years tho'

I can ask him about the location if you still need the info)

BTW, I believe two of the crew died, buried in Hooton Cem - but later re-interred in Germany (I think)

Cheers,
Billy.


Got this quote from click here

Is it your dad mentioned in this book? the lads on the boat as it crashed?

Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847399
2nd Jan 2014 11:19pm
2nd Jan 2014 11:19pm
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Wirral
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Helles Offline
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Not really doubting anyone but German personnel who died in the UK are usually buried in the German military cemetery in Cannock, Staffs. Some were obviously buried locally to where they died but later they were disinterred and reburied with their comrades there. I doubt any were sent home unless they were from extremely wealthy families and were sent home years after the war ended?

Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847412
3rd Jan 2014 12:37am
3rd Jan 2014 12:37am
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mikeeb Offline OP

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Not sure what you mean helles
He was removed from hooton and reinterred in cannock
Who was sent back to germany regarding this story?

Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847413
3rd Jan 2014 12:42am
3rd Jan 2014 12:42am
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Posts: 7,253
Our House In Our Road
ZipperClub Offline
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Our House In Our Road
This bit..
"BTW, I believe two of the crew died, buried in Hooton Cem - but later re-interred in Germany (I think)

Cheers,
Billy. "


One Way Or Another
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: ZipperClub] #847433
3rd Jan 2014 7:40am
3rd Jan 2014 7:40am
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bert1 Offline

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Crew of Ju88,

Helmut Bruckman, POW
Helmut Weth, POW
Horst Lehman, POW

Herbert Schlegel, Killed,

Buried at Hooton Village Church and moved in 1962 to German cemetery section, Cannock, Staffordshire,
Block grave number 3, grave number 117.

Attached Files
cannock.JPG (309 downloads)
Last edited by bert1; 3rd Jan 2014 7:48am.

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847436
3rd Jan 2014 7:59am
3rd Jan 2014 7:59am
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 213
Cambridgeshire
billy_anorak59 Offline

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Quote
Mikeeb
Is it your dad mentioned in this book? the lads on the boat as it crashed?

Yes Mike Ė thatís my Dad! He was in the boat when he heard the anti-aircraft guns down the river open up, but had just managed to get to the shore as the crash took place. Thanks very much for posting.

Quote
Helles
Not really doubting anyone but German personnel who died in the UK are usually buried in the German military cemetery in Cannock, Staffs. Some were obviously buried locally to where they died but later they were disinterred and reburied with their comrades there.

Mmmm, quite right. when I wrote that, I didnít know the full story, which is why I put the (I think) bit in my original post Ė sorry, lack of knowledge at the time.

In the event only one of the crew were killed, Leutnant Herbert Schlegel who was the observer, receiving a bullet through the head. He was originally buried in Hooton Cem, but later re-interred at Cannock, so that ties in neatly with your statement.

I also thought that Sonderfuhrer Horst Lehmann (acting as rear gunner) was killed, but it seems that he survived, very badly injured. He was in the ventral gondola (underneath the aircraft) which could be detached in emergencies, and it seems he opted to do that just before the aircraft hit the ground, rather than joining the crew in the cockpit.

I believe that Colin Schroeder, the e-booksí author, is revising it, as he has received more information from new sources. I donít know when it will be available, however I think heís done a great job gathering all the pieces of information together.


Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: billy_anorak59] #847442
3rd Jan 2014 8:40am
3rd Jan 2014 8:40am
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bert1 Offline

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Going off memory and it was probably written by Colin Schroeder, I'll try and find it, the 3 POW's were sent to Canada, two if not all three were repatriated in a prisoner exchange organised through the Red Cross.


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847453
3rd Jan 2014 9:10am
3rd Jan 2014 9:10am
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Posts: 213
Cambridgeshire
billy_anorak59 Offline

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It's OK Bert - information here:

Pilot Helmuth Bruckmann (26 yr old):
To Cockfosters, London for interrogation (1 week)
To Grizedale Hall, Lake District for interrogation (3 months)
To Canada as POW: Camp for Officers
Repatriated May 1944 by the International Red Cross
D 2001

Leutnant Herbert Schlegel (24 yr old):
Originally buried at Hooton Village Churchyard. Re-interred in 1962 Cannock, Staffordshire, block No.3, grave No.117.

Unteroffizier Helmut Weth (25 yr old):
To Cockfosters, London for interrogation (1 week)
To Grizedale Hall, Lake District for interrogation (3 months)
To Canada as POW: Angler, Lake Superior and Lethbridge, Alberta (7 years)
Repatriated 1947 via England as ĎForced labourerí
D 1985

Sonderfuehrer Horst Lehmann (37 yr old):
To Clatterbridge to recover
POW (Canada?)
Repatriated October 1943 by the International Red Cross
D ????



Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: billy_anorak59] #847459
3rd Jan 2014 9:55am
3rd Jan 2014 9:55am
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bert1 Offline

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Thanks Billy,
it was this piece I remember reading, with credit going to Colin.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/ju88.html

What happened to the German Prisoners, near the end.

Last edited by bert1; 3rd Jan 2014 9:57am.

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: billy_anorak59] #847514
3rd Jan 2014 1:29pm
3rd Jan 2014 1:29pm
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 795
birkenhead
mikeeb Offline OP

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Originally Posted by billy_anorak59
Yes Mike Ė thatís my Dad! He was in the boat when he heard the anti-aircraft guns down the river open up, but had just managed to get to the shore as the crash took place. Thanks very much for posting.


WOW! Thats amazing, a live link to the book smile
All this info is in the link in my original post
It is only a short read (30 pages) and was written by Colin Shroeder
The reference to your dad is on page 17 "Dennis Housley who lived in Magazine Village at the time"
"Dennis was one of three 12 and 13 year old boys who had a half day off school"


Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: ZipperClub] #847516
3rd Jan 2014 1:36pm
3rd Jan 2014 1:36pm
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 795
birkenhead
mikeeb Offline OP

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Originally Posted by ZipperClub
This bit..
"BTW, I believe two of the crew died, buried in Hooton Cem - but later re-interred in Germany (I think)

Cheers,
Billy. "


Ahh! I get it now
That was posted on the other thread I linked to, missed that
All the correct info is in my 1st link to the book

Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #847569
3rd Jan 2014 4:17pm
3rd Jan 2014 4:17pm
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,792
Heswallish
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fish5133 Online content
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Heswallish
Pilot Helmuth Bruckmann (26 yr old):
To Cockfosters, London for interrogation (1 week)
To Grizedale Hall, Lake District for interrogation (3 months)
To Canada as POW: Camp for Officers


wonder what the form of interrogation was--especially moving up to the lake district--water boarding ? having to eat Kendal Mint Cake? or listen to hours and hours of Vera Lynn ,

Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #848457
7th Jan 2014 1:17pm
7th Jan 2014 1:17pm
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 213
Cambridgeshire
billy_anorak59 Offline

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Iíve been trying to get the flight paths of enemy and defending aircraft right in my mind; the flight path of the action at a local level is the one area I have never seen documented graphically either in the e-book, or anywhere else. It helps in my understanding of the way this incident panned out.

However, there are two things that niggle me regarding the accounts given by eyewitnesses.
Iím not dismissing them; quite the opposite - itís just that I canít fit them into the whole story easily. Can anyone help make the statements fit the known facts?

Firstly, a recap of what is known may be useful:
1. The enemy aircraft is noted by observer on George Henry Lees flying up river
2. 312 Squadron notified of incoming raid
3. The Ju88 target is the Rootes Factory at Speke Ė so the Ju88 must have flown close to the factory
4. 312 Squadron Yellow Section scrambled to patrol Hoylake
5. 289 AA Battery of 93rd Artillery at Ince open up at lone Ju88 heading from Helsby direction and heading Northwest
6. 312 Squadron airborne and climbing Ė Yellow 3 notices the AA bursts over Stanlow area and turns to port to intercept. Yellow 1 and 2 follow.
7. Guns cease with the arrival of the 3x312 Squadron Hurricanes
8. Enemy aircraft engaged and shot down, landing on reclaimed land at Bromborough Dock, close to Magazine Village

So now the bits that I canít get to fit in my mind.

One eyewitness states they were 5 years old and living in Western Avenue in Speke and saw the Ju88 being pursued by 2 Hurricanes. How can that be when the two sets of aircraft only engaged in the Ince area (when the AA guns ceased firing)? I donít think they turned around and had a battle over Speke?

The other thing is that I donít get is another eyewitness report that stated that the Ju88 ďveered, and nearly hit Bromborough Church steepleĒ. Given that the crash site was just over a mile away, the twists and turns required to get back onto the known crash glide path donít make sense (to me). Nothing is mentioned in any reports of two 90 degree turns in the final seconds of the battle, so how can the flights proximity to Bromborough Church be explained?

And another thingÖ. (thatíll be 3 things then smile ) Iíve never understood how Denys Gillam (Yellow Section Leader - "Yellow 1")could be at the crash site within 15 minutes eitherÖ thatís some going in a 30s car, through the Mersey Tunnel from Speke. My father, who witnessed the final moments of the action, did see one of the pilots, but he was a Czech, and had walked along the river side from Hooton Park where he had landed after the action.

Iíve knocked up a plan of what Iím Ďassumingí to be the flight paths, compiled from the known facts (1 to 8 above) Ė I hope itís close. I would also hope that the questions I have posed make more sense when applied to the paths plotted on it. The inset picture shows the projected Bromborough Church manoeuvres in a bit more detail to try and explain what Iím on about. Iím not sure how the picture will appear in the forum environment, so here's hoping it's OK.

Attached Files
FP-081040.jpg (179 downloads)

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Re: Bromborough Ju88 incident [Re: mikeeb] #856405
7th Feb 2014 12:40pm
7th Feb 2014 12:40pm
Joined: Jan 2014
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Ellesmere Port
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Steve59 Offline
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Very interesting read.

My father (as a boy) witnessed this Ju88 Incident from Magazine Village, where he lived at the time. He was playing in the woods nearby with his friends when he heard the Ju88 plane fly over in his words 'as low as low'. His account of this is in the Ju88 Incident report under the 'Reports and Witness Statements' by Ron Wright.

He recalls that his friends and himself were first onto the scene before officials arrived. He remembers people taking so called souvenirs from the crashed plane. He remembers that one of his friends grabbed a dinghy from the aircraft and took it home, where he then stored it under the stairs. During the course of the next few days, the family all become unwell, and the cause of the illness was put down to the smell coming from the dinghy.

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