Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

Mmmmm, maybe he should look a little closely at the early dedication to the Church at Woodchurch, he may find an interesting clue there.

He also wrote an article suggesting the Liscard place-name was Irish, not Welsh.

See: - 'Liscard and Irish Place-names in Northern Wirral', Journal of the English Place-name Society, 30 (1997-8).

The Irish have the Irish chronicles and I believe the Welsh also have a British chronicles or Cambria or something, do we know if the Welsh one has been translated from Latin? and in a book somewhere and does it have anything on Wirral, but using a name like Erainn I presume you would know, also what about the Vikings in the area would they have named the rivers, I will have to reread the dr Steve Hardings books I have,the books do have field names,I have no idea's on ye olde British people so a clean slate and a willingness to read is all I can offer.

just seen we have gone to page 14

I see, flying in the face of agreed understanding, all for that, however would need to see his writing before concluding such an angle held any truth.

Well, as far as I understand names of natural features, particularly rivers, tend in general to pre-date later settlements from Scandinavia. Take the Tyne and Wear as an example, both Brythonic names that flowed through territories later under both Saxon/Angle AND later still Danish control/settlement, yet the rivers kept their ancient name. There is one river in North Yorkshire, the Greta which does appear to have been named by Danish settlers, so it happens, however usually the old titles continue.

University Of Aberystwyth is your place for the Annals Cambrae (Cymry) it would be surprising if there was not some reference to what we now call Wirral, as it has its Welsh name, as you probably know, and was part of a 'Celtic' territory up until the first Saxon encroachment from the Kings of to be Mercia

Gentlemen/Ladies no arguments or shouting you have an innocent reading your comments me!

Uttered in a Bob Harris whisper 'No problem'

So at the moment we are really back to square one ,with lots of quotes floating about with references from books of various learned gentlemen

Well, we were always in an arena of probability, rather than conclusive fact. For my part I have enjoyed the exchanges, information and have offered a different possible origin for the name of the River Fender. Of course it may well be that the goof folks of the Wirral were a prosaic bunch and did indeed name the river after a defensive sea embankment. However being from Celtic heritage myself that'sd lacking in imagination, so I'm throwing my lot in with a more colorful and ancient origin. However, if Wirralians of yore had a peculiar habit of naming rivers after man-made constructions/artifacts we may now need to start wondering if there was an Arrow factory somewhere north of Woodchurch

You also have to consider that because of its location, North Wirral may have been a politically neutral trading zone of sorts. Not specifically ruled or administered by any one group or peoples. It's a buffer zone between the Welsh kindgoms, the English kingdoms, and the Irish Sea traders. This could be one of the reasons why Meols in particular appears to have survived so long as a trading port (or beach market, as some say).

These groups of people may have co-existed in many respects, and the normal processes identified by linguists or historians for the way in which settlers come to leave their mark in place-name evidence etc., may not necessarily apply so rigidly in the case of Wirral.

That may well be the case, but it's not so much the rulership of a particular group that determines the naming of natural features such as a river, usually it would be a matter of time, with the earliest population having conferred titles. This explains the many Brythonic river-names in Britain as a whole, and who knows may apply to our discussion. What is certain is that the naming of the Fender, if down to a Welsh/British population, may well have been given prior to later settlement from Saxons or Norse, when the peninsular was part of a wide network of British groupings. One thing for sure, if the river was named after a flood barrier, can we accept that earlier peoples, be they Welsh or otherwise, were so bereft of imagination that they were unable to confer a name, upon what would have been an important feature of their environment? Or that such a nameless condition spiralled through the Centuries, until some bright-spark announced, following the construction of an embankment in the 17th or 19th Century 'I know! We'll call that formerly nameless waterway. the Fender!" History come-to- life me thinks

Is there a soap factory in Port Sunlight ?? or did they name it after a soap!!! I can imagine the arguments raging between historians a few centuries from now.

Low ball!.

Appears the irony was a tad too subtle for some

Before this thread my only assosiation with the River Fender was i fell into it a few times and crossed its bridges, there have been some excellent contributions and i have found it to be educational and fascinating, most certainly i would like to thank every one who has contributed and given their formed opinions.
At least the one thing we all agree on is that a river does exist and always has, even though its been interfered with by man, i assume on many occasions.
I have to believe that this river must have always from early times had a name and its unlikely in my mind that its name came from a defensive structure, it would probably be the only river to do so, as previously mentioned all other rivers, brooks and stream have been afforded their own title, and not after a defence barrier. No one can deny the river in question had a defensive barrier which could easily lead anyone thinking thats were its name derives, i throw this in to the pot, is it not possible for The river Fender (Main Fender), needing to be fended.
The thoughts previously expressed on why the Main Fender (river) when there's no other Fender in the area at the time of the map, there's also no evidence that there is a lesser fender(barrier) either. To conclude, The River Fender being fended would throw any cartographer in to confusion.