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More Brexit Lunacy #1055924
8th Jun 2018 1:44pm
8th Jun 2018 1:44pm
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wirral
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Our chief negotiator - seeking a firm end date for her proposed membership of the customs union - seems to think that "we expect it to end in 2021" is acceptable!

God only knows what he will think is acceptable from the EU.

Not that it matters two hoots. The EU have already rejected the whole idea anyway.

We have a government composed of buffoons, idiots and dunces and there is no hope of them making any sort of fist out of brexit. We need to stop the whole nonsensical business.

Those keen to leave are free to do a little more planning before another referendum about leaving can be held. I think leaving at all is the wrong thing to do, but to do so without planning is just crazy! What a pity labour wont oppose brexit.

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Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055932
8th Jun 2018 4:35pm
8th Jun 2018 4:35pm
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Putting ourselves in weak negotiation strategy from day one has resulted in us being totally walked over.

We should have started with the presumption that it will be a hard Brexit unless Europe want to negotiate anything better.

The knock-on from this has been non-EU negotiators are also taking the Mick. Never show weakness!!!

Future growth is mostly outside the EU, if we stay in the EU we get the few breadcrumbs that Europe allow us and even then we get penalised.

How much growth of our trade can we expect within Europe in the next couple of decades, virtually none, we are best out if we want to grow.


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055937
8th Jun 2018 5:25pm
8th Jun 2018 5:25pm
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wirral
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Voting to stick tariffs on 40% or more of our trade is a really stupid thing to do. Whatever you do after that is not going to make it less stupid.

Like deciding to walk down Grange Road stark naked one Saturday morning is a stupid decision to make. Whether you walk forwards or backwards or sideways or whether you play the bagpipes as you do so doesn't alter the fact that it is still a stupid thing to do and people are going to laugh at you.

It isn't helped, however, by a cabinet composed of dumkopfs who have a totally unrealistic view of the situation we are in, and argue over the fine details of a scheme that the EU has already said it will not accept. It is really simple. the EU doesn't have to give us ANYTHING. we are leaving, and have nothing to offer them in exchange for any concessions we hope for. Our government seem utterly incapable of grasping this, and are pretending to concoct schemes as if they can browbeat the EU into compliance.

We are heading for a hard brexit, the immediate effect of which will be that anything we hope to sell into the EU will become uncompetitive. That will mean closures here. Customs delays in food from the continent etc. etc. Moreover, the pound will go down a lot more than it did when the result of the resolution was announced, and we will all find food and other goods becoming a lot more expensive. Our banking industry will decamp to the EU - they have already started which is why london property prices are falling. The government will say yes to anything Trump demands in a desperate attempt to get a trade agreement - ANY trade agreement with America, and given the apparent negotiating skills of people like Davies it will be disastrous for us. As will any other trade agreement made in desperation.

One interesting fact is that things like cars manufactured within the EU have, according to EU rules, to contain a high percentage of European made components. This means that there will be a strong incentive to get them from - say - Germany rather than us. Indeed they may be unable to use our components even if they want to!.

It should be apparent to everyone by now that brexit is a big mistake. We are all going o suffer for it if it goes ahead. The sensible thing is to stop it.

Those still wanting to leave can prepare a little more carefully for it next time. If they do a proper job and outline how difficulties can be overcome I might even vote to leave myself then.

It is not a matter of SHOWING weakness as you and Boris seem to believe DD. We have PUT OURSELVES into a position of weakness which is abundantly apparent to everyone, in or out of the EU.

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055948
8th Jun 2018 9:31pm
8th Jun 2018 9:31pm
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Birkenhead
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How can the EU be so good when most countries in the world aren't part of it and don't want to be part of it, being a member is a way of isolating ourselves in a protectionist environment of which we have no control.

We (and other EU countries) have begged the EU to be more flexible and less controlling but the EU has not taken this on board at all. It is focussed on becoming an all consuming super-state driven by power hungry politicians for their own careers and greed.

We have never had any sway with European "law", they only wanted us to join because we would be one of the main net contributors. They wanted our money and we were stupid enough to give them it. What have we got in return? Nothing!

Being honest, leaving Europe is a bad thing, but encouraging Europe to continue is even worse. The best thing that can happen is that Europe breaks up.

We are a net importer, if people want to play silly games with tariffs, it makes us richer and them poorer, who is the fool?


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055949
8th Jun 2018 11:25pm
8th Jun 2018 11:25pm
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You are as delusional as our politicians. If you play tit for tat by raising import tariffs, you and I have to pay more!

The EU has grown and continues to grow. What does that tell you about the advantages of being in it?

It is particularly true of areas like ours, traditionally ignored by the affluent south and the Westminster government. You can thank the EU for the amount of new building in Liverpool for instance. The EU's primary objective - I will remind you - Objective One, is to get deprived areas in member countries up to economic scratch, and they have done it. Our own lot at Westminster failed for decades to do the same.

You don't seem to realise that "Taking back control" means the tories taking control again, not you, and spending every penny on London, and sucking the life out of what they contemptuously refer to as "The regions".

Brexit is a complete disaster, made even worse by incompetent and delusional handling by the UK. We are now the laughing stock of the world.

We are going to suffer badly from it if it goes ahead. Surely that is as obvious as the nose on your face.

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055952
9th Jun 2018 8:55am
9th Jun 2018 8:55am
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keef666 Online content
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Doesn't matter about Brexit any more this counrty is finshed, Labour and the Tories have seen to that, when my father joined The Common Market as it was called back then under Wilson, he told me that was the biggest mistake he made, over the years we have signed up to so many deals its just silly the people of this counrty never signed up for all that, whether money comes back here to build homes in Liverpool or London, we have allowed our Government over the years to get away with it and relied on the funding to come from the E.U.
Brexit is just the start after we are out the government is next, we need a fairer and more honest leaders not the corrupted bunch who think about linning their own pockets first, Laws hundreds of years old need to be scrapped and new ones brought in, loop holes for crimmals, fat cat bosses, big supermarket chains done away with, Plastic waste needs to be dealt with now, not years down the line when it too late, and we also need to get rid of bloody chewing gum!

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055954
9th Jun 2018 10:23am
9th Jun 2018 10:23am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,119
Birkenhead
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The EU has not paid a single penny to any projects in the UK, the money has come from our own coffers but the projects have been labelled EU.

As the UK is a net importer, any tit-for-tat tariffs means that the UK makes a profit, they make a loss. How our Government distributes that profit depends on whether we allow the Tories to carry on giving money away to the tax dodging rich.

We can kick the Tories out when the lies in the media are fully realised eg that the Conservatives not Labour have always been the party that has borrowed more and destroyed our economy.

We have virtually zero control over the EU, UKIP have more MEP's than any other UK party but even they have no sway whatsoever in Europe.

We cannot fight two Governments.

We cannot survive with two Governments looking after their own interests rather than UK's interests.


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055955
9th Jun 2018 11:00am
9th Jun 2018 11:00am
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wirral
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The point is that the projects would never have happened without the EU. EU money WAS forthcoming. I believe the system is is that 50% comes from EU funds and 50% from the country's government funds. you can argue that the EU funds are partly UK contributions anyway, but the fact remains that Merseyside and many other deprived areas of the UK received investment which - on its past record - is most unlikely to come from the Westminster government.

As to the 'control' argument, you might as well argue that Merseyside has virtually no control over the UK government and therefore would be better off outside the UK, and go on to argue that New Ferry has virtually no control over Merseyside and would, therefore, be better off outside Merseyside and so on... This is an argument in favour of NO government - anarchy. Is that what you want?

The point is that Europe has been very good for the UK. We have done well out of it, particularly the areas that were - and no doubt will be again - virtually abandoned by the Westminster government. Of the two, I would much prefer to be governed by the EU than from Westminster. They are far better at it. The effects of tit-for-tat tariffs are twofold. 1. Trade to the EU will fall, meaning factory closures here. 2. Incoming tariffs will mean goods - including food etc. from the EU will rise in price in the shops. There will be NO profits for the government to share out, as the departure of work and employment from the UK will mean less corporation and income tax. If you think we are going to be better off after brexit, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

The EU is a superbly successful project. It has done well for everyone in it, without subverting the individual governments. It is a union of countries and has no ambitions to ape the USA. We are beeing downright stupid in leaving!

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055956
9th Jun 2018 11:50am
9th Jun 2018 11:50am
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Birkenhead
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Like it or not, all the "EU projects" for Merseyside were initiated, proposed and constructed by the UK Government, all the EU did was rubber stamp our proposals to allow us to spend OUR money on them.

If you pay a maintenance company to look after your property, it is your own money that pays for everything, the maintenance company gives you nothing.

A Government is a servant or a service, it is not a master, as such it should be democratically controllable which the EU most certainly isn't.

The only countries that wanted to join the EU (apart from stupid us) were those that are going to be given substantial amounts of money and be net-recipient. In turn the EU is abusing its position by targetting weaker, poorer countries in order to continue its take-over.

As I keep on saying, once the EU runs out of money to give to Poland, they will leave, the amount they have received has been totally disproportionate in order to bribe them to stay.

The EU can't carry on bribing the majority of members, the ration of contributors to recipients is ridiculous and unsustainable. They have had many years to get some of these countries into being contributors but it hasn't happened.

Britain is a very rich country but we are becoming a third world country day by day, putting flashy short-livid buildings up does not give value, it is a waste. The projects are more about appearance and sending money upwards to the rich than sustainable growth for the people.

Britain is a mess compared to quite a few EU countries that are poorer than us.

The USA has no active plans of take-overs and expansion, the EU has.


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055958
9th Jun 2018 12:14pm
9th Jun 2018 12:14pm
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wirral
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I don't know what planet you are on. but it's not mine. Have you never heard of Objective One funding? That was defined - by the EU - before the UK was even in it!

You voted to leave. You are responsible for the mess we are in now, and will be for the even greater mess that is to come. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055959
9th Jun 2018 12:21pm
9th Jun 2018 12:21pm
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Dont know how the original common market worked before we sleep walked into the EU

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055961
9th Jun 2018 12:47pm
9th Jun 2018 12:47pm
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Birkenhead
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Originally Posted by Excoriator
I don't know what planet you are on. but it's not mine. Have you never heard of Objective One funding? That was defined - by the EU - before the UK was even in it!

You voted to leave. You are responsible for the mess we are in now, and will be for the even greater mess that is to come. You should be ashamed of yourself!


So name one project in Merseyside that the EU proposed, it didn't happen.

In fact, the EU did not even propose Objective One funding for Merseyside, it was a very hard battle to get them to agree with it, despite Merseyside being widely recognised as one of the highest priority areas in Europe. Even then we were short changed and didn't get the full funding, it was cut by 30%.

Despite the supposed EU control and inspection of the Objective 1 funding, it most certainly could have been better used and some of the projects failed miserably.

I voted leave, I did not vote to leave 10% of the EU control and legislation, I voted to leave all of it. Leave means leave.

The only thing I can be accused of is not campaigning harder to ensure the Tories were not in power. I also disagree with Labour's stance on Brexit but at least that is a more logical compromise.


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055969
10th Jun 2018 7:45am
10th Jun 2018 7:45am
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wirral
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It's not up to the EU to 'propose projects' or to force funding on an area.

It is up to the area itself to bid for it. If they make a good case for money to be spent, it is forthcoming. Incidentally, the reason the money was cut was because the UK government - yes, that Westminster one that seem to admire so much - objected to paying their share. The EU, naturally took the view that if the UK government was not prepared to pay their share, neither would they.

You have foolishly voted to leave a successful, growing organisation of which the UK was a part, as a result of a load of implausible propaganda from groups who have lied about things like 'EU laws' - which don't exist as the EU has no law-making powers - and given power to wealthy industrialists who funded it all. The result looks like the UK suddenly faced with a massive drop in exports to its biggest customer and left adrift- possibly for decades - before any new treaties with other countries can be agreed.

It is not helped by a piss-poor government who are simply not up to the job of managing a painless transition. Rather than engaging with the EU, they are currently debating which of two alternative proposals to put to them, despite both being ruled out by the EU! Frittering away the time allocated to manage the transition are gently as possible.

It is looking as if a 'hard brexit' is inevitable. On day one of our independence, you can expect a dramatic drop in the pound, queues of lorries at Dover and Calais full of spoiling food, a large increase in food prices, border posts in Ireland followed by further terrorism there, departure of much industry, and quite possibly food and fuel shortages. I would advise everyone to set up a Euro bank account and transfer as much money as you can afford into it, and stockpiling as much tinned food as you can buy. You may not need either, but there is no harm in doing it, and you may be very grateful if you have done so.

Leaving is a very, very stupid thing indeed to do. You voted for it. You are responsible for the consequences whether you accept them or not.

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: fish5133] #1055970
10th Jun 2018 7:50am
10th Jun 2018 7:50am
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Quote
Dont know how the original common market worked before we sleep walked into the EU


It worked just like the EU does now. The EU simply provided a means of establishing - by agreement - common standards for goods moving between the countries.

You can blame only yourself if you sleep walked into the EU by the way. You may have done. I certainly didn't.

Re: More Brexit Lunacy [Re: Excoriator] #1055973
10th Jun 2018 2:25pm
10th Jun 2018 2:25pm
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