WikiWirral its great, register, enjoy and welcome.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,031,367
Topics76,000
Members13,973
Forums65
Posts in last 24hrs5
Most Online14,906
Nov 23rd, 2019
Who's Online Now
16 registered members (baldybrewer, 5 invisible), 1,138 guests, and290 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
New General Forums
Booster jab
by casper. 25th Sep 2021 4:28pm
Can anyone recommend an experienced Physio Wirral
by Longnails. 17th Sep 2021 5:41pm
The CB Radio Wirral FB Page
by TheGodSplinter. 14th Sep 2021 3:04am
Our Earth
by granny. 8th Sep 2020 10:02am
New Wirral History
Mersey Park Primary School
by Maisie. 12th Mar 2011 2:14pm
1970s flats on the noctorum
by mark64. 13th Aug 2010 11:47pm
holy trinity church.
by cathcart. 1st Jul 2010 7:19am
Highfield School, Oxton,
by . 10th Jun 2007 10:49pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Cruise liner Anthem of the Seas
Tram by the Penny Bridge
Topic Replies
Road Repairs
by _Ste_. 23rd Oct 2021 4:59pm
Our Earth
by Salmon. 23rd Oct 2021 2:56pm
holy trinity church.
by mikeeb. 23rd Oct 2021 1:21pm
Wanted 1hp single phase electric motor
by spider. 22nd Oct 2021 12:52pm
Hedgehog Rescue
by granny. 21st Oct 2021 12:54pm
Sir David Amess
by keef666. 20th Oct 2021 6:33am
Temporary relocation of Birkenhead Market
by mikeeb. 17th Oct 2021 1:54pm
Doctors appointments
by moretonkiwi. 17th Oct 2021 1:28am
Wanted old unloved gas patio heater any condition
by spider. 14th Oct 2021 12:31pm
October
M T W T F S S
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Royden Hall Christmas Fair
by Greenwood. 28th Sep 2021 10:59am
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Street Lighting - again #1027905
2nd Jan 2017 2:34am
2nd Jan 2017 2:34am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,999
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline OP

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline OP

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,999
Birkenhead
Wirral Council have recently admitted that they know of 1758 unlit lamp fittings - I suspect that the actual numbers of defective lamp fittings may be three times that figure.

Despite all the noise they made last Autumn/Winter about examining all lights and would fix them all by May(iirc), I have seen many lights that were not fixed.

This financial year they have already fixed 3673 fittings but I know they have many to go.

More details and figures can be seen HERE

Of interest is Section 4 of the response where they state they have not spent one penny during the last two and a half years on "money spent on bulk light changes as part of maintenance of Wirral street lighting".

Section 5 would also indicate that the recent LED replacement program has only included 20% of fittings.


We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Google Ads
Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027907
2nd Jan 2017 9:25am
2nd Jan 2017 9:25am
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 522
south wirral
P
pacef8 Offline
Smartchild
pacef8  Offline
Smartchild
P
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 522
south wirral
No mention of which ones they have deliberately switched off then.

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027914
2nd Jan 2017 1:06pm
2nd Jan 2017 1:06pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
Quote
No mention of which ones they have deliberately switched off then.


At least they have been on once. Drive along the New Ferry bypass and enjoy a section where they have NEVER one been on since installation!

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027923
2nd Jan 2017 4:56pm
2nd Jan 2017 4:56pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 753
Wallasey
Norton Offline

Veteran
Norton  Offline

Veteran
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 753
Wallasey
Another interesting find, DD.

Even more interesting is the fact that most lights cost between 3 and 10 times more to run when they are dimmed!! Surely, in most cases, brighter lights would mean fewer lights for the same level of illumination?

Is there no guarantee from the contractors used in the LED conversion, making them go back and repair faults on their work, within a certain time?

If you and I were paying contractors to do work, wouldn't we get them back to sort out what we'd paid for until it was right?

As ratepayers to this Council, we have paid and should be demanding our moneys worth with robust service levels and quality management in place.

And as to the money we paid for street lighting in the past two years that didn't get spent - could someone shine a light on that?

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027924
2nd Jan 2017 5:36pm
2nd Jan 2017 5:36pm
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO £68.36
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO bright £6.32
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO dimmed Low £38.20

Can anyone make sense of this?

The less energy you radiate, the more it costs! Presumably, they cost even more when they are switched off!

The mind boggles! Perhaps Ms Paterson, the Senior Information Management Officer (Business Services - Digital) can shine a light on this oddity.

It is worth noting that there is skill involved in answering freedom of information requests. It consists of making sure that the answer - whilst not overtly dishonest - is incomprehensible to the extent where no real information is released. Studiously avoiding any clue as to what CPO, CLO and CDM mean (if anything) leaving the enquirer guessing is typical of this sort of obfuscation.

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027939
2nd Jan 2017 6:48pm
2nd Jan 2017 6:48pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 216
Seacombe
K
keef666 Offline
Addict
keef666  Offline
Addict
K
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 216
Seacombe
When i have paid my last Council tax payment this week for the last year, i am going to ask them for a refund on account that some of the lights by me have been off for the last 14 months, workmen came out last year changed the bulbs to LED's andthey still never worked, amzed no one has had a crash or been run over as they are on a bend, maybe then the Council will get off its arse and fix them, and don't get me started on potholes!

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: Excoriator] #1027961
2nd Jan 2017 10:45pm
2nd Jan 2017 10:45pm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 37
Great Sutton
P
Papa_Juliet Offline
Newbeee
Papa_Juliet  Offline
Newbeee
P
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 37
Great Sutton
Originally Posted by Excoriator
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO £68.36
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO bright £6.32
140w Ceramic Metal Halide - CPO dimmed Low £38.20

Can anyone make sense of this?

The less energy you radiate, the more it costs! Presumably, they cost even more when they are switched off!

The mind boggles! Perhaps Ms Paterson, the Senior Information Management Officer (Business Services - Digital) can shine a light on this oddity.

It is worth noting that there is skill involved in answering freedom of information requests. It consists of making sure that the answer - whilst not overtly dishonest - is incomprehensible to the extent where no real information is released. Studiously avoiding any clue as to what CPO, CLO and CDM mean (if anything) leaving the enquirer guessing is typical of this sort of obfuscation.


I'm no street lighting expert, but a search of the above abbreviations associated with street lighting revealed the following:

CPO - Philips CosmoPolis™ (CPO) Outdoor Lighting System
See Philips CosmoPolis

CLO - Constant Light Output
See Philips Unistreet LED Lighting system

CDM - Ceramic Discharge Metal Halide
See - Ceramic Discharge Metal-Halide lamp

The Philips 140w Ceramic Metal Halide lamps appear to be incredibly efficient in terms of lumens per watt, producing up to 16,500 lumens of white light for 140 watts which is as good as the best LED's but requires a reflector to redirect light down which reduces output due to light being trapped in the housing. There is no indication in the datasheet that the lamp uses more power when dimmed, but it is slightly less efficient, requiring 60% of the maximum power when the light is dimmed by 50% so I suspect there is an error in the annual running cost figures shown in your FOI reply for these lamps, my guess is the annual cost at full output should be £68.36 and at 50% output £38.20 which roughly lines up with the datasheet figures.

Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: Papa_Juliet] #1027965
2nd Jan 2017 11:03pm
2nd Jan 2017 11:03pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,999
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline OP

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline OP

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,999
Birkenhead
Originally Posted by Papa_Juliet
The Philips 140w Ceramic Metal Halide lamps appear to be incredibly efficient in terms of lumens per watt, producing up to 16,500 lumens of white light for 140 watts which is as good as the best LED's but requires a reflector to redirect light down which reduces output due to light being trapped in the housing.


But a low pressure sodium would produce 29,400 lumens for that wattage albeit not white light.

Low pressure sodium is still the most efficient light source in many power ranges, an LED would be very lucky to get 14,000 for 140W.

What they are hoping for LED is that the life is greatly increased, the efficiency isn't as good but it is dimmable which can give a cost saving.

This graph is slightly out of date for LED efficiency but the order is still correct ...

[Linked Image]

Last edited by diggingdeeper; 2nd Jan 2017 11:06pm.

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Street Lighting - again [Re: diggingdeeper] #1027969
3rd Jan 2017 8:36am
3rd Jan 2017 8:36am
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,778
wirral
New white LEDs claim around 100 l/W, but in theory could soon produce about 250 l/W.

Also of interest are laser illumination which can produce around 170 l/W

(See http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...er-alternative-to-led-light-sources.html)

Something which doesn't seem to have occurred to our council, however, is that whatever light source you use, if the thing is broken, you get NO light from it until it is repaired.


Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Road Repairs
by granny. 21st Oct 2021 10:59am
Hedgehog Rescue
by BultacoAstro. 21st Oct 2021 9:12am
Sir David Amess
by cools. 18th Oct 2021 1:41pm
Royden Hall Christmas Fair
by Smeeble. 27th Sep 2021 7:50pm
Fluoridation
by diggingdeeper. 26th Sep 2021 2:42am
For Sale & Free
Wanted old unloved gas patio heater any condition
by spider. 12th Oct 2021 6:43pm
Arm chair / 2 seat sofa
by Peter0787. 5th Oct 2021 12:31pm
Wanted Yellow Enamel Paint
by BultacoAstro. 30th Sep 2021 12:58pm
Samsung NC10 10" screen Notebook
by gerrymoore. 30th Sep 2021 10:17am
Wanted 1hp single phase electric motor
by spider. 6th Aug 2021 2:42pm
Member Spotlight
spider
spider
Birkenhead
Posts: 414
Joined: August 2009
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Mikew2207, GaryD, DaveSwanage, OscarFelixJake, Owlsofwirral
13973 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Road Repairs
by granny. 21st Oct 2021 10:59am
Royden Hall Christmas Fair
by Smeeble. 27th Sep 2021 7:50pm
Fire logs
by TheComputerLab. 24th Sep 2021 2:53pm
Temporary relocation of Birkenhead Market
by mikeeb. 29th May 2021 1:01pm
Dock Branch Park
by mikeeb. 6th Feb 2021 1:03pm
News : New Topics
Hedgehog Rescue
by BultacoAstro. 21st Oct 2021 9:12am
Sir David Amess
by cools. 18th Oct 2021 1:41pm
Panic buying
by mikeeb. 25th Sep 2021 10:47am
Energy firms going bust
by cools. 23rd Sep 2021 8:49pm
La Plama Volcanic Eruption
by granny. 21st Sep 2021 3:26pm
New Enthusiast Forums
Fluoridation
by diggingdeeper. 26th Sep 2021 2:42am
Spooky image
by cools. 23rd Sep 2021 7:58pm
Bultaco pursang
by Bultaco. 13th Mar 2019 12:43pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Sat 7:55am
Sunset Sat 5:57pm
Local Time Sat 5:46pm
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1