Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request History behind a walking stick.

We have a hand carved walking stick come to us through the family , that we would like to know a bit more about. Its in the attic at the minute so no photo, but its the written info carved into it which is the useful stuff.
Its handcarved over every inch. The handle lifts and converts when tilted 90deg , to a smokers pipe. The top shaft is square with a caged ball amongst decorative carving. On one side is carved the word PRESENT ,and next to it a match holding 'hole' covered with a copper sliding door bearing the inscription surname proably Sinnon or possibly Simon - the initials for the forename could be IJ or JS - really dont know . Next to that, the heavily carved date 1896.
The next side says (all writing heavily carved the width of stick ) FROM MOLD TO, the next one M.ROBERTS.HAWT and the last one HORN DEENE CHESTER

The lower part of the stick has scallops carved out of it all round . The funny thing is, in every scallop is clearly carved 2x2 or sometimes that , but written vertically
2
x
2
so Im thinking it might be a bespoke piece for a presentation or something.To a retiring teacher maybe?

Ive learned nothing from googling Horn Deene . The person the stick ended up with (not the owner) is dead, so we cant ask about its origin , but he never went out of the old Flintshire area as far as we know.His family were gamekeepers and farm workers/estate cooks.

Anyone know anything about whether Horn Deene was a place, school, place of work etc ? Were walking sticksa traditional retirement present once? Has anyone seen another stick with a pipe for a handle?

That sounds like a lovely piece of work - a picture would be great to see, sometime. Have you thought of sending a photo of it to the Grosvenor Museum in Chester? They might be able to shed some light on what/where Horn Deene was, to take you further back in its tale.

Just reading your post again, it occurs to me that the carving might carry on from line to line, which would give you Hawthorn Deene. There is a house called Hawthorn Dene (only one e) at Puddington, near Chester. Perhaps you could check out census listings for the house 1891 - 1901 to see if M Roberts lived there.

Hi Greenwood. Thanks for your posts. Yes, I hadnt thought of the HAWT linked to THORN --It could be couldnt it . Not very professional looking if it is though!!Dont really thnk the Puddington 'Dene' would be involved though as the DEENE is very clear -- wouldnt know how to check a census address in any case. Think Ill do your first suggestion though when I get a photo , and see if they can throw any light on it. Thanks.

Might be, might not be. Haven't read it all and to be honest I can't understand what I have read.

Leave that to you

http://www.2x2ministry.org/2x2_timeline.php

2x2 Religion Founder William Irvine

The "2x2" religion, "2 by 2" religion or "two by two" religion is the religion founded by William Irvine (Master Mason degree in 1885) in about 1897. According to William Irvine, to become a WORKER, one must sell everything (including your house), give them all your money and follow the OVERSEER'S and your older WORKER COMPANION's instructions (WORKERS assigned together call each other "companions").

Excellent and interesting find granny but the sadly the dates area against you.

Oh, sorry. What date are we looking for, I thought it was 1896 ?

Yes, two by twos was founded in Ireland in 1897, the society itself didn't use that name until many years later, it was a nickname for them.

Wow ,good spotting granny -- imagine if it had been something to do with that, that would have been a real find wouldnt it . Strange co-incidence though, all these 2's .

It is remarkably coincidental, I was trying to find a precursor group but found nothing.

Also found zilch on Hawthorne Deene around Cheshire.

A good shout by Greenwood I think.

I can find 2 mentions of Hawthorn Dene, Chester.

1889.
An Auction held by Messrs Churton Elphic & Co of Household Furniture, Pictures, etc, at,

Hawthorn Dene, Hoole Rd, Chester.

Instructions from Rev H P Ramsden (Reverend Henry Plumtre Ramsden, Inspector of Schools)


1890,

Mrs Maclaverty, Hawthorn Dene
Lady Patroness, Chester Artillery & Rifles

Haven't found the property in any census yet.

Perhaps the walking stick has a tenuous connection to Noah's ark, the caged ball could be a metaphor for the Earth and every living thing caged, or confined aboard the ark. The scallops have an obvious marine theme and, of course, the animals boarded 2 x 2. I'm probably talking a load of tosh, but our forebears were very keen on symbology.

Yep, things are starting to jigsaw together ....

It did say 'about 1987', that was why I thought there was a slight discrepancy.

William Irvine was a member of the 'Faith Mission in 1896 he joined in 1895 and he was still a Freemason.

quote ""As we continue to receive word that certain itinerant workers (associated with Mr. Irvine and Mr. Cooney) frequently pass under the title of "Pilgrims" or "Faith Workers", we wish it to be observed that the name "Pilgrim" was adopted for our evangelists from the formation of the Faith Mission in 1886, and that the workers of this new association differ very widely..in aims, principles, and methods from those of our Mission"

There is so much to read about this William Irvine and another coincidence is that he had two sisters, one lived in Scotland and one lived in Wales. When he died in Israel he had been there for many years with very few possessions and I wonder if he left some of his possessions with his sister when he went to Israel . Maybe his walking stick ??

Masonic walking sticks or possibly staffs quite often had the caged ball incorporated. Maybe it was symbolic of his split with the Faith Mission and his previous Freemason connections and embarking on his new . The stick didn't necessarily have to have been made in 1896 but could have included 2 x 2 from a later date.

Well, I am a romanticist at heart, but it fits quite well so far. Pilgrims would have travelled and used a walking stick/staff and as he died of throat cancer, he probably smoked too !

There are many links I could put up but unless anyone wishes to read them there is little point, as relevant script is difficult to find amongst the massive history written about him.

I'm wondering if this was connected to Chester Union Workhouse which was on Hoole Road from 1873. This had a school and a church.

There may well have been symbolism involved lud, who knows. Could also have been the maker thinking ah, ball in a cage, seen that done, I can do it to make this look more impressive, and Ill do quick scoops all round the bottom third , to make up the time! Thats part of the magic of the stick isnt it. We will never know exactly what was in the carvers mind c 130 years ago!

Bert , have you found in the past that the words Dene and Deene are used for the same reference to a valley or whatever?
Wonder if the stick was just picked up in an auction rather than originally owned by someone local.Could be in some way connected with Deene in Northants if so.
Its clear it was presented to M ROBERTS , so perhaps the inscription Sinnon on the matchcover was added by a later owner - as its quite sketchily done.

@granny - yes, of course the 2X2 could have been scribed at a later date - I hadn't thought of that and it wouldn't be an unusual practice.

I think you are on the right track, Lud. Definitely symbolic and could be a folk art piece, added to as years went by.

I'm a bit puzzled by the Lord bishop of Chester possibly having a few puffs as he went on his merry way.

@ Venice, I think the caged ball in walking staffs, was to do with balance. I did read that somewhere, but how it works is a mystery.

Found it......

"Hiking staffs, or staves, as they were called, were used ever since man stood up right. All people in mountainous areas carried five-foot staves to assist themselves going up and down hills. In Europe, the famous Alpine staff is the favorite. It is an oak staff with a ball on the top and a steel spike at the bottom; the ball balances the staff"

http://www.customwalkingsticks.com/ws_du_sec.shtml

How tall is the walking stick.
and could Sinnon be Simeon or Sion ?

http://s376.photobucket.com/user/maryloy/slideshow/

Have used an old photobucket thing. Hope it works. Bit disorganized order for photos, but you'll get the overall picture. Ill measure it shortly granny.


ps Its 86cm tall

I see Ive missed off an example of the 2x2 scallop sideways version. Ill see if I can find it and add.

ok seems to have added although not to the same batch. Youve got everything now.

Theres the remains of a small link chain on the shaft ,one either side but only a few links left so dont know how long it was. You can see it in one of the photos, I think it would be too uncomforable to be a wrist strap, but cant think of any other purpose?

Hawthorn Dene, Hoole Road, Chester. Is that not the present Dene Hotel ?

Maybe the lady from there, moved to Puddington and named her cottage after her old house.

Interesting, it appears to have been carved by at least three people - or one person in a rush at times.

Its not professionally carved or inscribed, I doubt if its an apprentice piece also.

Typical of prisoner-of-war type pieces but unlikely in this case.

I'd plump for a school piece.

I presume the chain "latched" the handle down?

@granny will come along and blow all I've said out the water now with something she finds

QUOTE DD "I'd plump for a school piece." Could be - its definitely a bit scabby here and there . Pretty skilled in the ball and chain area though for a schoolgoer.Still you do find gifted 'artists' show up young.

Thanks for everyones input , most interesting. Ill let you know if I get any further after contacting the museum - and I think there may be a history society for Flintshire .

Thanks for posting the pics - it does have a kind of 'sampler' feel to it. My great-uncle Ernie's walking stick, very simple with a ball top to fit in the palm of the hand, measures 84cm in length, for comparison. He was not a tall man. Quite a mystery!

All the 2's that are really throwing me. 2 is a very important number and particularly in Judaism .

Ludwig may be close.

Judaism
The number 2 is important in Judaism, with one of the earliest reference being that God ordered Noah to put two of every unclean animal (Gen. 7:2) in his ark (see Noah's Ark). Later on, the Ten Commandments were given in the form of two tablets. The number also has ceremonial importance, such as the two candles that are traditionally kindled to usher in the Shabbat, recalling the two different ways Shabbat is referred to in the two times the Ten Commandments are recorded in the Torah "


This link seems to have various description on the symbolism of 2.

http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu2.php

The stick looks quite battered and it's lovely to see it, which gives a different idea and thought process.

Maybe it was a leaving gift to a head of a school , possibly a religious school, but that's another trail to be followed DD. i.e.Your job

Really interesting Venice, and it's beginning to annoy me , but something will turn up, I'm sure. All eyes focus on Bert

Thanks for the pics Venice.....been struggling to visualise this Stick.

Grandad (95 y.o) uses his Grandads stick but it is just a basic wooden one with nobbles et al.

I find it odd that there is so little mention of Hawthorn Dene, Chester. Mention of it in newspapers is proof it existed as a residence and yet it doesn't seem to be in directories or census returns. To prove or eliminate M Roberts actually living there at any time, Electoral registers may be the only way. I think they would have to be searched at Cheshire records office.


While searching various sources, I did come across prizes for Bike races, Winners receiving money, runners up, Walking sticks. The mind boggles, who needs a walking stick if you can finish second in a bike race.
Just thought I'd mention it.

Dont forget the Deene is spelled differently Bert. (Maybe as in Caldy the place and Calday the Grammer school within) . However Im wondering if maybe Hawthorne Deene was a small private church school too small or short lived/poverty stricken to get a mention , and that the stick was a present to its benefactor or head master, carved by a schoolgoers parent or something when it closed. The actual property it was housed in,may have been a private residence called something else entirely .

Its funny how lumps of history do disappear, Ive got photograph of a yearly festival held somewhere round Northop Hall Clwyd where they held ' The Queen of the Lakes' competition . No mention at all that I could find though , online.Some things just arent important enough to survive .

I've looked for various spellings of Dene/Deene, Chester, same result, very little on offer. It wouldn't have Chester if it was elsewhere in the country, I feel certain of that.
The problem around that period of time, writing and spelling was poor. The carver may not have been familiar with how Dene was spelt or that's how it looked if his instructions were badly written.

Whichever way its spelt, it should show up in records or on maps, strange that it doesn't. Perhaps it will eventually, live in hope.

I think it's Masonic. Following two quotes with links , seems to give some sort of explanation.

Masons such as Jabez Wilson (REDH) or John Hector McFarlane (NORW) might have had one a three-sided Masonic cane among their collection.

http://www.jadedcompass.com/ocular_helmsman/attire/canes.html

EIGHT - 8

Among the Pythagoreans the number eight was esteemed as the first cube, being formed by the continued multiplication of 2 by 2 by 2, and signified friendship, prudence, counsel, and justice; and, as the cube or reduplication of the first even number, it was made to refer to the primitive law of nature, which supposes all men to be equal.

http://masonicdictionary.com/numbers.html

OR... straight back to where we began to the Faith Mission and/or William Irvine of 1896 ,who was himself a freemason.

If it quacks and walks like a duck, then it is a duck.

Well, not a good start, my email has come back as undeliverable from the Chester museum website email contact given(which I cut and pasted) Will ring them tomorrow.
Fascinating stuff granny. Might that not be a bit 'above' the unprofessional level of the stick though? I feel if it was a commissioned piece by masons, it would have had to be accurate and better done . There again , maybe this WAS a reject , hence its being passed on and perhaps 'claimed' by Sinnon! That would fit with Bert saying carvers could have been ill educated. Gosh the possibilities are endless arent they.

One for the Antiques Road Show this Venice. If they're ever near by maybe worth a visit ....

Reference to carvers being ill educated.

Yet again we return to the Faith Mission.(or 2 x 2's) It was a group of pilgrims who were encouraged to give up their homes and travel. Preaching whatever they believed and at the same time teaching their crafts wherever they went.

So this stick could really fit in well with that approach. A combined piece of work from teacher to various levels of different skills.

Ive just been reading a site about schools in Chester in the 19C and apparently the small religious and free'rag' schools were at their height in Chester during the second half. Didnt find any mention of Hawthorn or any form of Deene though sadly.

Just to eliminate one thing, the Dene Hotel was definitely not Hawthorn Dene in that era. The name and building came much later.

Oh , Ive been looking for a histotical map I had once off here, that you place over todays map to see what it was like, to see if there was maybe any school marked there, so youve saved me that thanks DD . I dont reckon we are going to get to the bottom of this one.

Rev. H P Ramsden ( Henry Plumtre Ramsden) was Rector of Cottingham 1889 to 1902 (East Riding of Yorks)

And on offer was,

Cottingham , not Cheshire+

The Bishop of Chester is both the rector and patron of Cottingham, and the owner of the great tithes, though the parish is in the diocese of York.

Ah, thats the one, thanks Bert Ill stick it on my desktop. So we know there was a property called Hawthorn Dene on Hoole Rd - once yet no mention of its existence now. So, its name must have been changed on sale ? Must have been a decent size/quality of property judging by its sale contents.Think Ill Google earth myself up that road and see whats to be seen.

Chester Education and Schools.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/ches/vol5/pt2/pp277-291

His son was born in Cheshire so I presumed he moved over here, not a lot of history on him which I find surprising.

Good man, DD!
..and maybe he was appointed to Chester, but I understood it to be Cottingham from the article I read. Granny probably got it wrong. He didn't seem to be here long enough for that,really.

He was in Chilham,Kent in 1871
Married in Kensington,London in 1887, baby born Hoole in 1888, and then moved to Cottingham 1889.Same year as the auction. Do we assume H,P.R. was the vicar at All Saints's Church, Hoole ? He died 1901 aged 53yrs. Had 4 children, William was the eldest.


William Havelock Chaplin Ramsden
England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900


christening:

24 November 1888

Hoole, Cheshire, England


residence:

24 November 1888

, Hoole, Cheshire, England


father:

Henry Plumptre Ramsden


mother:

Ethel Frances Alice

All Saint's Vicar 1871-1907 was Frederick Anderson.

Previous to Chester, Rev H P Ramsden was Diocesan Inspector for Newcastle, appointed in 1881 and took up his post at Chester in 1882, succeeding J F Buckler who took up a post at Bedson.

Henry Plumtre Ramsden married Ethel Frances Alice Havelock.

Their son,

Major General William Havelock Chaplin Ramsden, Military Cross, 1918. DSO, 1939. CBE, 1940. CB, 1943.
Died, 1969, Aldershot.

Back to the Walking Stick,
We still need to know if M Roberts lived at Hawthorn Dene or the stick is referring to an area of Chester.

If it was the property, it may give us an understanding of his standing in society, previously being occupied by the Reverend and Mrs Maclaverty, very likely the wife of Lieut-General Maclaverty, RA.

The last person to own the stick, is his/her family history known.
Could it have been handed down from a Roberts relative?

Although it came to me via family , I didnt get the impression it was an 'heirloom', but Ill have a look back on the little family history there is on that side , and see if theres a Roberts .

I looked along Hoole Rd to see what houses may have been Hawthorn Dene . The most likely one, to me , is a building which is on the old map , next to the church, now a primary school called St Martins Academy . Its only been this school for a couple of years, was vacant a year before that (owned by local authority) but dont know its history beyond that .



Asking a family member , this stick is more likely to have come to us via the spouse of the person we thought - so the family werent gamekeepers , they were farmers , same area. Flintshire.

If the above is right, via an Edward Hooson born 30th Nov 1823 in Northop. Died 14th April 1881.He married Dinah Roberts in 1849 at Holywell. She was born in 1829 in Northop. No date of death.

If she was born in 1829 , its likely her father was born around 1800, so would have been 96 when the stick was presented, so not likely .I suppose its just possible she had brothers who would have carried on the Roberts name, and that one of Dinah's children inherited the stick from a cousin. Stretching it a bit though .

The most likely death for Dinah Hooson, 1913 aged 84, gives a birth date, 1829, registered at Holywell

Also in Hoole Rd is the Dene Hotel, has that name for a reason, even if not around at the time. Also in the correct time period, Hawthorn Villas, six in all.
I did wonder if one of these villas carried the name Hawthorn Dene, even though they are numbered 1 to 6 on the census returns.

I have the probates for Edward & Dinah if you would like me to post them, above death for Dinah is correct.

If youre saying that Hawthorne Deene was earlier,
Couldnt it have been on that hotel site though , and hence later the Dene hotel was partly called after it?

I will pm you Bert

This is a stretch Bert, but Hawthorn villas -Are they still there? Could they maybe have formed a private school -Hawthorn school-? Maybe too in the same way the Deene could have been mispelled Dene, it could also have been a misspelling of Dean ,as in Dean of a religious school in Hoole Rd Chester.
M ROBERTS -HAWTHORN DEAN - CHESTER.

Grasping at straws now lol! Google cant find any school deans called Roberts! - and why a present from Mold.

Alert Re-group, re-group.

Why are we concentrating on Hoole and have we forgotten about Hawthorn Dene of Puddington, that Greenwood originally mentioned ?

Details

SJ 37 SW PUDDINGTON C.P. THE VILLAGE

3/14 Hawthorn Dene and Lilac Cottage. 12.6.85 II Formerly farmhouse now 2 houses: early 18 century with later extension, upwards, to rear and to right side, some 20 century alterations. English bond and English garden wall bond red brick. Welsh slate roof and 3 brick chimneys. Double-pile plan. 3-storey, nearly symmetrical 3-bay front. Brick band at 1st floor and simple brick cornice. Windows are 3-light casements with transom, under segmental brick heads, simpler windows in top storey. Central wooden doorcase contains fanlight with vertical glazing bars and a 5-panelled door. Extension to right is of 2 storeys, and is now a separate house. Similar casements and added gabled porch against right side. Interior: heavy ceiling beams visible in Hawthorn Dene.


Add to that Bishop Wilson School, Puddington Lane, Burton.

But why would it state Chester then ?

Don't know. Maybe he had a new job in Chester.


Located within the City of Chester and West Cheshire according to this..

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.c...e-lilac-cottage-puddington-#.VorHov8rHmI

I don't know exactly where the Villas were and I haven't got a decent enough map of Chester, all I can say they were in Hoole Rd. Properties close to them, Bee Hive Hotel, Moor House, The Elms.

Haven't dismissed it completely,

I get only one hit for Hawthorn Dene, The Village Puddington, that's in the 1984 telephone book.

There's no mention of it in the 1911 Summary Books (Puddington, Entire) the Enumerators words, not mine.

It could come under Burton, Bert. Puddington being like a spot.

No, can't find it in Burton.

Losing the will to live now

I think we all are, but maybe one last 'go' hey Bert. Could it be under Neston ?

http://www.dustydocs.com/link/5/24910/178329/parish-page-familysearch.html

How about Lilac Cottage as the two were knocked into one, or was it the other way around?

Very common to use Chester meaning Cheshire.

This is a tad frustrating, quite a lot of information to start with and every route is coming up with absurd problems.

I agree the "from Mold" without any qualification is strange.

Going to get rid of this rocking horse. Back and forth, back and forth....

There is also an area in Denbighshire called Hawthorn Dene.

That's just to add confusion. Mold used to be in Denbyshire, but I don't know if this is a newly named area or not.

http://www.pentalocal.uk/wales/denbighshire/hawthorn-dene/

No and no for Lilac Cottage.

Always thought that place was full of ghosts.

Im just grateful for all the extra possibilities Ive heard via you all thanks, its been really interesting , and I never expected really to find much more of info out .Ive learned loads of 'asides' too on the way. You should all have a well earned rest , and I will get back to you on it if the Grosvenor gets back to me.

Just one last thought --I hadnt actually considered till Bert said, that it might have been from a member of the family - having not been given that impression at all, but it looks to me that that angle could be ruled out, if Dinah Roberts didnt have any boys with a name beginning with M. Does wherever you found Dinah show that Bert?

I haven't looked into Dinah's family, other than a quick glimpse. The possibilities would be endless and only someone researching their own Roberts line would get to the bottom of it, in terms of time spent and any expense involved. There would be to many, Uncles, Cousins, Nephews, etc. assuming that is, M Roberts is a man.

Ah right, thanks bert. Im ignorant when it comes to family history options. I do hope the museum get back, although they havent acknowledged the email or anything so far. They may of course just rely on the same resources our history buffs on here have used , so this may be the end of the line. Not to worry , its been an interesting journey thanks everyone.

I would get in touch with these, ask if Hawthorn Dene, Hoole Rd, Chester shows on the Electoral register between 1890 & 1900 and if M Roberts occupies it within those times.

Cheshire Archives and Local Studies
Browse repositories

Cheshire Record Office
Duke Street
Chester
England
CH1 1RL

Telephone:

01244 972 574

Fax:

01244 973 812

Email:

[email protected]

Right, that emails gone off Bert, thanks. Fingers crossed.

This is from the record office .Thats nice of them. It came with some old maps which may or may not show hawthorne Dene on them . They are so small and even on full screen they go no bigger . Am going out now, will fiddle later to see what I can do with them.


We are only able to carry out short searches free of charge and searching the electoral register for the period you require would be subject to a search fee of £12.50. I have however checked the 1892 Kelly’s Directory of Cheshire for 1892 and under the listing for Hoole I noted the following:



Roberts William Morris, com. Traveller, Hawthorn Dean, Hoole Road

That sounds promising , but not ideal that he's a commercial traveller.

Something to get stuck into though, I still got no hits for that, had to search manually.

Hawthorne Dene/Dean/Deene is very likely to be 87 Hoole Rd, at least that was the address of William Morris Roberts, 1901 census.

1896 Directory,

William Morris Roberts, born 1848, Carnarvon married Catherine Williams Pierce,born 1849, Rhosesmor, Parish of Northop. Married 1872, Carnarvon.

Places they lived,

1881, Shrewsbury
1891 Mold
1892 Hoole rd Chester
1896 "
1901 "
1911, The Shrublands, Hoole, Chester,

He was a commercial Traveller and in 1911 he was a director of a Lead Mine.

Brilliant. Well done.

Here is a bit more of interest on William Morris Roberts. The last post made December 2015. Might be interesting if he should know anything about the walking Stick. Wouldn't it be nice if it could be returned to the family ?

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=9321

Wow bert, thanks . So I it looks like this is our man!!?? Its like a real mystery unfolding piece by peace !

piece by piece even!

Thanks for your last post too granny. All very interesting. Will register and do a post in answer to the last one and see if a link can be established between Dinah and jessie Jones. Will consider your suggestion seriously too after looking further into connections.

Well well whoever would have thought we would have got this far .Do you think its the same chap, granny? Bert? DD ? Greenwood?
Im a bit thrown that the carving is done in the initial of the middle name , but I suppose if it wasnt a formal presentation ,a perhaps more commonly used middle name would be quite normal.