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Blue Screen #864492
14th Mar 2014 9:19am
14th Mar 2014 9:19am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Never happened before on this pc, first time it done it was when I installed the bitdefender, and i used internet explorer to log into my bank.


Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BlueScreen
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 2057

Additional information about the problem:
BCCode: 4a
BCP1: 000000007746132A
BCP2: 0000000000000002
BCP3: 0000000000000000
BCP4: FFFFF88007762B60
OS Version: 6_1_7601
Service Pack: 1_0
Product: 768_1

Files that help describe the problem:
C:\Windows\Minidump\031414-12823-01.dmp
C:\Users\Willo\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-52837-0.sysdata.xml

Read our privacy statement online:
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=104288&clcid=0x0409

If the online privacy statement is not available, please read our privacy statement offline:
C:\Windows\system32\en-US\erofflps.txt


..
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Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864500
14th Mar 2014 10:01am
14th Mar 2014 10:01am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 749
Wirral
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rhoobarb2002 Online shifty
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rhoobarb2002  Online Shifty
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Bit hard to tell what the problem is just from that message.

Has the computer been acting funny at all?
Have you updated any drivers recently?
Do you have updated drivers?
Any new hardware added to the computer?
Any new software?
Have you changed any BIOS settings?
etc, etc.

Basically has anything changed recently?

Could you post the log up?

Last edited by rhoobarb2002; 14th Mar 2014 10:03am.
Re: Blue Screen [Re: rhoobarb2002] #864518
14th Mar 2014 10:19am
14th Mar 2014 10:19am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rhoobarb2002
Bit hard to tell what the problem is just from that message.

Has the computer been acting funny at all?
Have you updated any drivers recently?
Do you have updated drivers?
Any new hardware added to the computer?
Any new software?
Have you changed any BIOS settings?
etc, etc.

Basically has anything changed recently?

Could you post the log up?

Computer has been fine
No drivers updated recently
All drivers up to date
No hardware added
No settings changed
I installed bitdefender this morning, and since then, lots of sites i can't go on, i went to log on to my bank and pc crashed and gave blue screen, did not get chance to read it or take picture.

Dont know how to get to the log

Windows did a update this morning

Security Update for Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Service Pack 1 Redistributable Package (KB2565063)

Installation date: ‎14/‎03/‎2014 09:06

Installation status: Successful

Update type: Important

A security issue has been identified leading to MFC application vulnerability in DLL planting due to MFC not specifying the full path to system/localization DLLs. You can protect your computer by installing this update from Microsoft. After you install this item, you may have to restart your computer.

More information:
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=221007

Last edited by Willo_; 14th Mar 2014 10:22am.

..
Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864532
14th Mar 2014 10:46am
14th Mar 2014 10:46am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 749
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rhoobarb2002 Online shifty
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When does the Blue Screen come up?
Is it random or predictable?
Does windows get to the desktop OK or does it crash on startup?
Can you start up in Safe Mode?
Can you get to System Restore?
Do you have any other AV programs installed?

If you can get in to windows, download this;
http://sourceforge.net/projects/hjt/
run it and post the log.

There are a couple of things it could be.

-It could be that bit defender is causing issues if there is another AV program installed.
-Maybe bit defender found a virus that infected a system file or driver file and cleaning it technically corrupted it.
-Maybe the system update has caused an issue. One of the recent Windows 7 updates actually caused my PC to BSOD and I had to re-install windows (quickly removed by MS though).

I don't let windows automatically update anymore frown

Last edited by rhoobarb2002; 14th Mar 2014 10:49am.
Re: Blue Screen [Re: rhoobarb2002] #864537
14th Mar 2014 11:04am
14th Mar 2014 11:04am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
When does the Blue Screen come up? It flashes on during boot up (sometimes) also pc just flashes it up during normal use and pc shuts down.

Is it random or predictable? Random

Does windows get to the desktop OK or does it crash on startup? get to desktop fine but flashes blue screen then reboots and goes to desktop fine then

Can you start up in Safe Mode?
Can you get to System Restore? I turn restore of on all my pc's

Do you have any other AV programs installed? Just deleted bitdefender and put MSE back on

Logfile of Trend Micro HijackThis v2.0.5
Scan saved at 10:57:42, on 14/03/2014
Platform: Windows 7 SP1 (WinNT 6.00.3505)
MSIE: Internet Explorer v11.0 (11.00.9600.16521)


Boot mode: Normal

Running processes:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Drive\googledrivesync.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Drive\googledrivesync.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller Driver\Application\iusb3mon.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Acer\Hotkey Utility\HotkeyUtility.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Glary Utilities 4\Integrator.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Cyberlink\MediaEspresso\DeviceDetector\DeviceDetector.exe
C:\Users\Willo\Desktop\HijackThis.exe

R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL = http://acer.msn.com
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://acer.msn.com
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=255141
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Search_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=255141
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,SearchAssistant =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,CustomizeSearch =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Local Page = C:\Windows\SysWOW64\blank.htm
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Toolbar,LinksFolderName =
F2 - REG:system.ini: UserInit=userinit.exe
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In SSV Helper - {761497BB-D6F0-462C-B6EB-D4DAF1D92D43} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre7\bin\ssv.dll
O2 - BHO: Windows Live ID Sign-in Helper - {9030D464-4C02-4ABF-8ECC-5164760863C6} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live\WindowsLiveLogin.dll
O2 - BHO: Evernote extension - {92EF2EAD-A7CE-4424-B0DB-499CF856608E} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIE.dll
O2 - BHO: SkypeIEPluginBHO - {AE805869-2E5C-4ED4-8F7B-F1F7851A4497} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In 2 SSV Helper - {DBC80044-A445-435b-BC74-9C25C1C588A9} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre7\bin\jp2ssv.dll
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [USB3MON] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller Driver\Application\iusb3mon.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SuiteTray] "C:\Program Files (x86)\EgisTec MyWinLockerSuite\x86\SuiteTray.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Hotkey Utility] C:\Program Files (x86)\Acer\Hotkey Utility\HotkeyUtility.exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SunJavaUpdateSched] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Adobe ARM] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\ARM\1.0\AdobeARM.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [GoogleDriveSync] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Drive\googledrivesync.exe" /autostart
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Skype] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Phone\Skype.exe" /minimized /regrun
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /autoRun (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\RunOnce: [mctadmin] C:\Windows\System32\mctadmin.exe (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-20\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /autoRun (User 'NETWORK SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-20\..\RunOnce: [mctadmin] C:\Windows\System32\mctadmin.exe (User 'NETWORK SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-18\..\Run: [Bitdefender Wallet Agent] "C:\Program Files\Bitdefender\Bitdefender\pmbxag.exe" (User 'SYSTEM')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-18\..\RunOnce: [IsMyWinLockerReboot] msiexec.exe /qn /x{voidguid} (User 'SYSTEM')
O4 - HKUS\.DEFAULT\..\Run: [Bitdefender Wallet Agent] "C:\Program Files\Bitdefender\Bitdefender\pmbxag.exe" (User 'Default user')
O4 - HKUS\.DEFAULT\..\RunOnce: [IsMyWinLockerReboot] msiexec.exe /qn /x{voidguid} (User 'Default user')
O8 - Extra context menu item: Clip image - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIERes\Clip.html?clipAction=4
O8 - Extra context menu item: Clip selection - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIERes\Clip.html?clipAction=3
O8 - Extra context menu item: Clip this page - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIERes\Clip.html?clipAction=1
O8 - Extra context menu item: Clip URL - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIERes\Clip.html?clipAction=0
O8 - Extra context menu item: E&xport to Microsoft Excel - res://C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~4\OFFICE11\EXCEL.EXE/3000
O8 - Extra context menu item: New note - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\EvernoteIERes\NewNote.html
O9 - Extra button: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WindowsLiveWriterShortcuts.dll,-1004 - {219C3416-8CB2-491a-A3C7-D9FCDDC9D600} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WriterBrowserExtension.dll
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WindowsLiveWriterShortcuts.dll,-1003 - {219C3416-8CB2-491a-A3C7-D9FCDDC9D600} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WriterBrowserExtension.dll
O9 - Extra button: Skype Click to Call - {898EA8C8-E7FF-479B-8935-AEC46303B9E5} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O9 - Extra button: Research - {92780B25-18CC-41C8-B9BE-3C9C571A8263} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~4\OFFICE11\REFIEBAR.DLL
O9 - Extra button: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\Resource.dll,-101 - {A95fe080-8f5d-11d2-a20b-00aa003c157a} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\\EvernoteIERes\AddNote.html
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\Resource.dll,-101 - {A95fe080-8f5d-11d2-a20b-00aa003c157a} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Evernote\Evernote\\EvernoteIERes\AddNote.html
O10 - Unknown file in Winsock LSP: c:\program files (x86)\common files\microsoft shared\windows live\wlidnsp.dll
O10 - Unknown file in Winsock LSP: c:\program files (x86)\common files\microsoft shared\windows live\wlidnsp.dll
O11 - Options group: [ACCELERATED_GRAPHICS] Accelerated graphics
O18 - Protocol: skype-ie-addon-data - {91774881-D725-4E58-B298-07617B9B86A8} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Toolbars\Internet Explorer\SkypeIEPlugin.dll
O18 - Protocol: skype4com - {FFC8B962-9B40-4DFF-9458-1830C7DD7F5D} - C:\PROGRA~2\COMMON~1\Skype\SKYPE4~1.DLL
O18 - Protocol: wlpg - {E43EF6CD-A37A-4A9B-9E6F-83F89B8E6324} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Photo Gallery\AlbumDownloadProtocolHandler.dll
O23 - Service: Adobe Acrobat Update Service (AdobeARMservice) - Adobe Systems Incorporated - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\ARM\1.0\armsvc.exe
O23 - Service: Adobe Flash Player Update Service (AdobeFlashPlayerUpdateSvc) - Adobe Systems Incorporated - C:\Windows\SysWOW64\Macromed\Flash\FlashPlayerUpdateService.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Alg.exe,-112 (ALG) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\alg.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Content Protection HECI Service (cphs) - Intel Corporation - C:\Windows\SysWow64\IntelCpHeciSvc.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\efssvc.dll,-100 (EFS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: EgisTec Ticket Service - Egis Technology Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\EgisTec\Services\EgisTicketService.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\fxsresm.dll,-118 (Fax) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\fxssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Google Update Service (gupdate) (gupdate) - Google Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Update\GoogleUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: Google Update Service (gupdatem) (gupdatem) - Google Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Update\GoogleUpdate.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology (IAStorDataMgrSvc) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology\IAStorDataMgrSvc.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ieetwcollectorres.dll,-1000 (IEEtwCollectorService) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\IEEtwCollector.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Capability Licensing Service Interface - Intel(R) Corporation - C:\Program Files\Intel\iCLS Client\HeciServer.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) ME Service - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Management Engine Components\FWService\IntelMeFWService.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Dynamic Application Loader Host Interface Service (jhi_service) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Management Engine Components\DAL\jhi_service.exe
O23 - Service: @keyiso.dll,-100 (KeyIso) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Live Updater Service - Acer Incorporated - C:\Program Files\Acer\Acer Updater\UpdaterService.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Management and Security Application Local Management Service (LMS) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Management Engine Components\LMS\LMS.exe
O23 - Service: @comres.dll,-2797 (MSDTC) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\msdtc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Nero\Update\NASvc.exe,-200 (NAUpdate) - Nero AG - C:\Program Files (x86)\Nero\Update\NASvc.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\System32\netlogon.dll,-102 (Netlogon) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\psbase.dll,-300 (ProtectedStorage) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\Locator.exe,-2 (RpcLocator) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\locator.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\samsrv.dll,-1 (SamSs) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Skype Updater (SkypeUpdate) - Skype Technologies - C:\Program Files (x86)\Skype\Updater\Updater.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\snmptrap.exe,-3 (SNMPTRAP) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\snmptrap.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\spoolsv.exe,-1 (Spooler) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\spoolsv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\sppsvc.exe,-101 (sppsvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\sppsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ui0detect.exe,-101 (UI0Detect) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\UI0Detect.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Management and Security Application User Notification Service (UNS) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Management Engine Components\UNS\UNS.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vaultsvc.dll,-1003 (VaultSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vds.exe,-100 (vds) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\vds.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\vssvc.exe,-102 (VSS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\vssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Wat\WatUX.exe,-601 (WatAdminSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\Wat\WatAdminSvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\wbengine.exe,-104 (wbengine) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbengine.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%Systemroot%\system32\wbem\wmiapsrv.exe,-110 (wmiApSrv) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbem\WmiApSrv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%PROGRAMFILES%\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe,-101 (WMPNetworkSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe (file missing)

--
End of file - 11780 bytes


..
Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864601
14th Mar 2014 3:34pm
14th Mar 2014 3:34pm
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,237
Wirral
Mark Offline

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Mark  Offline

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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,237
Wirral
Booting up in safe mode loads the basic windows sevices and drivers.
If your pc is stable in safe mode then its could be a corrupt file causing problems as stated above.

Bit Defender will do a pre scan before installation but I think you would be prompted about any issues.

Google bit defender uninstall tool. This will remove any trace. Its more thorough than windows un installer.

Personally I would turn on system restore as its pretty quick at getting things back to how they were.

Last but not least there could be a bit of hardware loose or failing. A restore would have helped with resolving that issue.

Antivirus programs go very deep into the file system as part of monitoring.

Its not an easy one to fix until the problem is narrowed down.

Try running in safe mode reboot a few times into safe mode too.

Have you tried a scan disk ?
There may be a corrupt file that windows can fix.


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Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864602
14th Mar 2014 3:35pm
14th Mar 2014 3:35pm
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,237
Wirral
Mark Offline

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Mark  Offline

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Posts: 21,237
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Is this windows 7 or 8

You can repair only the system files in win 7 & 8. Ive not got the how to with me but google repair win7 file system.

Ive not tried it but read about it online, its one of them secrets windows doesn't shout too loud about.

Last edited by Mark; 14th Mar 2014 3:38pm.

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Re: Blue Screen [Re: Mark] #864605
14th Mar 2014 3:39pm
14th Mar 2014 3:39pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark
Is this windows 7 or 8

You can repair only the system files in win 7 & 8. Ive not got the how to with me but google repair win7 file system.

Ive not tried it but read about it online, its one of them secrets windows doesn't shout too loud about.
Win 7 64bit


..
Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864607
14th Mar 2014 3:42pm
14th Mar 2014 3:42pm
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,237
Wirral
Mark Offline

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Mark  Offline

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Posts: 21,237
Wirral

Last edited by Mark; 14th Mar 2014 3:44pm.

My Avatar images are all from the Wirral Gallery.Click Me
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Re: Blue Screen [Re: Mark] #864636
14th Mar 2014 4:57pm
14th Mar 2014 4:57pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Thanks, will try it when I get in.


..
Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #864836
15th Mar 2014 10:31am
15th Mar 2014 10:31am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,518
Merseyside
Willo_ Offline OP
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Willo_  Offline OP
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Result of scan

Attached Files Capture1.PNG

..
Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #865264
17th Mar 2014 11:16am
17th Mar 2014 11:16am
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,229
Oxton
Gibbo Online content
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Gibbo  Online Content
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Blue screens happen. Considering how random a system can be with different manufactuers of devices, drivers, operating system, age of components, and whatever you're running all at the same time its amazing that computers work as well as they do.

Shrug it off, restart, make sure your OS and drivers are up to date, do a couple of scans of the memory, hard drive and a full antivirus and spyware scan and only worry if it happens frequently.

Re: Blue Screen [Re: Willo_] #865398
17th Mar 2014 8:33pm
17th Mar 2014 8:33pm
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,237
Wirral
Mark Offline

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Mark  Offline

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I would be thinking of starting over too.
If you have unplugged all external devices and the blue screens continue then it must be a corrupt driver file that windows may not check as its not the proprietor, (Owner of the driver software).

Windows 7 has a great backup program built in.
Back up and turn on system restore it can save you so many problems in the future if it becomes a reoccuring problem. You can always turn them off at a later date when your happy again.

I always keep a base back up after ive installed all my crap and ran windows updates. That can save a few hours down the line.

Bit defender and other Antivirus programs can cause problems with the files system as they have to be installed at such a low level to protect your system, it is a catch 22 at times. Personally its one of the first things i install after the O/S



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