Forums Forums Wirral Information Jobs - Training Wages in Engineering on Wirral

There was a EU mandate that 2 major ship yards in the UK where to go to the wall. The 2 yards that where selectd where Swan Hunters and Cammell Lairds. This came to light during Frank Fields fight to get access to the intervention fund that the EU where using to keep the east german yards open. This was after Lairds had been sold {given to Barrow& Furnace} and then earmark for closure by them 2 years prior to the final ssk submarine been completed by Lairds.

The Thatcher government certainly didn't pour money into British shipbuilders, what money was put in was never enough to help us compete with other parts of the world, as i said before were heavily subsidised by their governments to win orders and keep their workers in employment, what money was invested in BS was used for paying off past debts and not for modification and the up keep of British yards. This is were government and senior management failed the shipbuilding industry in this country. This is where you may say the ship yard workers have to modernise also, this is true, i was involved in some of the negotiations at the time, if you could call it that, what was proposed wasn't open to negotiation, it was more like rammed down your throat. All it was doing was paving the way for what was to come, closure and/or privatisation, When Sir Robert Atkinson was made chairman his sole mandate was to get rid of shipbuilding in this country, orders from maggie. This is well documented and i even seen the programme myself, when he was interviewed on TV.

Automation and modernisation of pits had absolutely nothing to do with the 1984 miners strike. This was completely Thatchers ideology and pay back time for what happened to the Ted Heath government. She had one thing on her mind and nothing else, to break trade unionism in this country and especially the miners union which at that time was the strongest. Right from gaining power she was stock piling coal and even bringing it in from abroad, she even changed the method of transporting the stuff in case other unions refused to move it. I'm not saying the miners union were angles in all of this, but i wont accept there was any more meaningful reason for it. It was pay back time and self preservation of a government and ideology.

I do buy British when i can and yes i do look, obviously its not always possible or practicable to do so, but i don't buy anything if i know it comes from those countries who still employ slave labour.

I can say 10+ years Civil Engineering brings in good money. If you're willing to do the work, it can be well paid. I don't know of a single mate with a engineering discipline job that isn't well off.

The British Industry should never be in competition with countries whose workers are paid next to nothing.

There are always wheels within wheels, Nissan had a lot of negotiating and agreements with the government before they impacted this country.

The government had a policy to support ICL (computer industry), even AFTER ICL was sold abroad.

The quality of Japanese ships and their engineering exceeded what Cammel Lairds could do - but as has been said, there were a lot more workers killed and maimed in the process.

Shoving money in India's direction has caused more poverty not less. This has come about because wages rose, process of food etc rose, but those people that weren't employed by foreign investment had the same old wage and could afford the food. The other governments should have protected India from this affect.

@Bandycoot - totally agree - the unions should stay within their bounds, I am annoyed when they have sub-groups such as gay, black, one-eyed etc - to a union a worker should be just a worker. They also should get involved in foreign politics. But it is up to the membership to censure their union - the union is not a separate entity like a company - it is the membership - the members have control - if you don't like something - put a letter in the union rag-mag and let others know what is going on and get it stopped.

We never play by the same rules - the government were not allowed to subsidise certain competitive industries, but other countries do it through the back door, by subsidising the power producing industries (electricity supply), who then provide cheaper power to industry - subsidising by stealth.

Foreign call centres should near enough be banned, very few produce adequate service (let alone good service), we have bodies that are supposed to protect the consumer - they should be able to fine companies with poor call centre service.

We should never have been in the EU, there are no advantages other than MP's promotion prospects. There are many disadvantages.

Health and Safety saves money not costs money - what is the cost of a death or major injury, what are the costs of fines. Oh I forgot, an industry can expect a factory inspector about once every 100 years now. Even food shops have very little hygiene checks, I think its about once every five years on average. The government has been saving pitifully small amounts of money by getting rid of these safeguards - or tying them down at the office to do paperwork.

To quote John Lennon "I've got blisters on my fingers" and the keyboard needs a rest ....

I'm all debated out too. If I write anymore tonight I'd probably give myself a headache.

Been some really useful points discussed and I think if we took it much further, we'd probably best get the BBC in to make ourselves some money with a tv program.

Neil.

thanks Neil, been interesting to say the least.

A lot of what you guys have been discussing has gone straight over my head but I just wanted to say how refreshing it was to read a debate that has stayed on track and not developed into a slanging match.

Ahhh, you didn't see the PMs .... just joking

This has been a difficult one belive me! And I sent no PM's - Promise. But was tempted!

Another thing that hacks me off is the way foreign firms are allowed to take over British firms, not to keep them open but to gain access to the advanced technology and then set about shutting them down and transferring the technology and know how back to their own country, after a short honeymoon. The Steel industry is a case in point. As for the slave labourers, without their pittance coming in to buy their rice bowl they have nothing, which is ever the way of the ordinary working man.

Quite right Bandy, hacks me off also, all in the name of free enterprise and so called progress. The closing of a factory or a mill doesn't just stop there, it also closes communities and a the loss of generations of knowledge, never to be returned.

The slave labour question, disgusting it still goes on, and yet a catch 22 situation, if we don't buy, they go hungry, if we do buy we keep them repressed in a terrible situation. Similar of how it must have been here at one time. In this day and age the rest of the world should act and do something about it.

engineering wages on the wirral are cack, you'll be lucky to push £12p/h ltd or £10 paye. hence the reason why i work offshore or do the power station shutdowns

A frustration for me is companies that go into liquidation to cancel all their debits. I lost thousands of pounds on that one and it's something that myself and Nigel went through in an engineering outfit in the early 90's.

These places practically continue trading like nothing else has happen but it's the suppliers that loose out.

My advice is to never let customers run away with a bill if you're self employed and try to get them to pay for materials up front, wherever possible. There are useful tools you can buy like the "risk disk" that will help you assess a company's financial viability before you give credit.

For me, I bug my computer software so if they don't pay me it times out and renders itself useless. Bad payers go on proforma and have to pay up front. If they want the work doing they will find the money.

Also, a cheque is just a piece of paper until it is cleared so don't fall for "it's in the post".

Never do any work without a valid PO (preferably a document and not just an order no over the phone).

and finally you may as well do nothing at all than be a busy fool.

Well said Neil !

This is sadly a true fact of todays world.