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Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry #1075225
11th Mar 2020 11:04am
11th Mar 2020 11:04am
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 4
Derby uk
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soonguy Offline OP
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soonguy  Offline OP
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Please, are there any legal eagles who can unpack this newspaper report from 1852. What it seems to say is that the landlord Richard Crafter (an ancestor) of the Derby House (now the Derby Arms) in Rock Ferry has got into financial difficulties and is, I guess, owing both the leasehold owner of the building, and the brewery. But how does this differ from bankruptcy? For, in fact, Richard Crafter was to happily continue as landlord there for another nine years, not only operating the Derby Arms, but also doing mobile catering at events on the race course in Chester.

I would also like to find an old photo of the Derby Arms, if anyone knows of one.

Grateful thanks.

Attached Files
creditors 1852.JPG (59 downloads)
Last edited by soonguy; 11th Mar 2020 11:05am.
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Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: soonguy] #1075231
11th Mar 2020 9:51pm
11th Mar 2020 9:51pm
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Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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As trustees had been appointed, this may be after bankruptcy had been sought, this would be then be the liquidation and distribution of assets.

There are mechanisms for trustees to be appointed without bankruptcy through voluntary liquidation especially if all the creditors agreed to the settlement.

It partly depends if the action was forced or voluntary. There are a lot of different variants of liquidation with the ultimate object being to minimise losses to creditors. If there is a substantial return available to the creditors then bankruptcy can be detrimental to the process.

I don't think there is enough detail to decide if bankruptcy was the case or not.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: soonguy] #1075253
12th Mar 2020 3:58pm
12th Mar 2020 3:58pm
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Norton Offline

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'The London Gazette' has details from the Bankruptcy Courts. Search on the gov.uk website.

Try this link - Insolvency searches

"Search for an insolvent person or company
You might need to find out if someone or a company is insolvent.
To search for companies registered in the UK, you can use the Companies House service, or search the London Gazette.
If you’re looking for an insolvent or bankrupt person, you can search the individual insolvency register. If the person or company you’re looking for is not on this list, they are not currently in formal insolvency proceedings."

Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: diggingdeeper] #1075263
13th Mar 2020 11:09am
13th Mar 2020 11:09am
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soonguy Offline OP
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soonguy  Offline OP
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Thanks so much both for your wisdom. Much appreciated.

Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: soonguy] #1075324
17th Mar 2020 7:46am
17th Mar 2020 7:46am
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granny Offline
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Richard Crafter was my Gt, gt.gt. Grandfather. He didn't own the Derby Arms Pub, so don't know how he could have been made bankrupt. He wasn't an ancestor of Derby House , don't know what that's supposed to mean. He worked there according to one of the census. He was born in Kent and moved up to this area (Liverpool first I believe ) to work as a gardener. Previously he had worked for The East India Company .
After leaving the Derby Arms Pub, he went to the Chester Arms , Parkgate. (now the Old Quay)

I have a photo of the Derby Arms Pub. watch this space and I will put it up later. Copy taken from a book

I can't read the link you have posted, so I don't know what it says, however if you wish to know anything more, please say.

Last edited by granny; 17th Mar 2020 7:55am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: soonguy] #1075325
17th Mar 2020 8:09am
17th Mar 2020 8:09am
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Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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diggingdeeper  Offline

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An ancestor of original poster. Presumably he leased the Pub then agreed to work for the owners to settle his debt.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Legal question from 1852 Derby Arms pub Rock Ferry [Re: soonguy] #1075326
17th Mar 2020 8:32am
17th Mar 2020 8:32am
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,330
Wirral
granny Offline
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granny  Offline
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Maybe that's it, I've just sent a message to my sister. She knows all the ins and outs of this family. I know that there was legal business carried out on the premises (don't know what they are called off hand) Relating to maybe accidents, or incidents in the locality. The Derby Arms was where they held the inquires into such matters. (such inquests were mentioned in the Old Mersey Times .)

At the time Richard Crafter was there they also had a number of residents, so maybe unpaid bills. I don't understand legal jargon

If Soonguy is an ancestor, he's going to get his head in knots.

Last edited by granny; 17th Mar 2020 8:38am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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