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Project reality? #1063602
29th Dec 2018 11:16am
29th Dec 2018 11:16am
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Excoriator Offline OP
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Effects of a no-deal brexit

1. A large drop in the value of the pound which will mean all imported goods will go up in price and foreign holidays will be more expensive
2. We WILL have to pay the £39 billion. This is money already committed to EU projects. Not paying it would destroy trust in us as a potential trading partner with other nations
3. The foreign companies like Nissan, Toyota, Sony etc who established companies in the UK to supply the whole of teh EU will move out to avoid EU tariffs. The resulting unemployment will mean higher taxes.
4. We - and the EU would have to erect customs posts at the Irish border. We will see a resumption of the chaos we saw in the past.
5. The in desperation to get a trade deal - any trade deal - will sign any disadvantageous deals offered - probably with Trump as top of the list. Enjoy your GM food and hormone stuffed chlorinated chicken!
7. Our financial sector will depart lock, stock and barrel for Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin. In order to trade within the EU they will have to relocate there. This will double our trade deficit and cause the pound to fall further.
8. Without access to the Galileo system, our drones and cruise missiles will be useless. A UK version will take decades and cost tens of billions of our falling pounds.
9. In an attempt to attract inward investment, workers rights will be cut down even further than they are already.
10 . Human rights guaranteed by the EU in the past will be denied us.

I could easily list another dozen major problems, but as our MPs - from all parties - are well aware of them and are united in opposing a hard brexit, I won't bother. It is about the only thing they agree on and 85% of them are prepared to vote against it ever happening. Thank god, there aren't that many nutters like JRM and co. and despite the noise they make, they won't have much effect. A hard brexit is simply not going to happen.

It seems to me that a second referendum is now inevitable. The Government has got itself into a situation where they are unable to accept a free trade settlement or to accept a no-deal brexit, and there is really no alternative to going back to the people to make the decision.

This would be won by remainers now, quite easily due to two years of deaths of the 'Leave' voters, new 'Remain' voters reaching the age of majority and the fact that the 'don't knows' have realised what a cock-up leaving would involve and I suppose a few leavers who have changed their minds.

Irritating for the brexiteers, but having won the battle they have probably lost the war!

Last edited by Excoriator; 29th Dec 2018 11:17am.
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Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063611
29th Dec 2018 6:19pm
29th Dec 2018 6:19pm
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granny Offline
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Rubbish... Archangel of Doom ! So little confidence in your own country, it's disgraceful. I see an ever hopeful wish that UK goes down the pan, which is so often the motive of the Remainers.. then they can say " I told you so ".

If this is your way of attempting to brain wash people into changing their minds in the event of a second referendum.......... forget it ! Not going to happen, and the sky can fall in but if we leave the EU one thing is for certain, we will be out of their treacherous grip , where they continue to keep the poor, poor for the wealthy to remain rich.
Poverty in the EU member states was to be eradicated by 2020. That was their mission, and that mission has failed. Have a look at some of the other southern EU countries, they're in bad shape.
Is that what you wish for our people ? For those who don't have the ability to sit and shove money around all day long, getting the best returns, for those who can barely afford to get to work on minimum wage. Where the companies are kept floating due to the benefit top ups, paid by the government as in credits, to meet the recommended weekly amount for part time workers who had to make way for 3 million EU workers in the early 2000's .All funded by the EU. So as prices rise, the companies make more profits, they keep the profits as they can only pay the minimum wage or they lose out. A set amount of money allocated to wages, but because it's in excess, they then give it out in bonuses to staff who are further up the chain, and NOT on part time minimum wages.
Yes, keep the poor, poor, for the wealthy to remain rich and get richer. I'm assuming you are one of those who is ' well off '. No need to worry, got the pension sorted, nice little stash in the bank and can pay the leccy bill as it drops on the mat. Funeral paid for upfront, and a nice shiny car to run around in. God bless you !


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063612
29th Dec 2018 7:38pm
29th Dec 2018 7:38pm
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Excoriator Offline OP
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Right. So brexit is going to solve all these problems is if Granny?

Why don't you list some of the positive benefits of brexit so we can see how all these problems will melt away Granny?

I thought of ten reasons why we will be worse off after a hard brexit, so perhaps you can think of ten positive benefits of leaving.

Personally I can only think of one which is that we shall see less of that loudmouthed rabble rouser Farage. I doubt you can think of any, but feel free to prove me wrong.

The floor is yours....

Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063617
29th Dec 2018 10:03pm
29th Dec 2018 10:03pm
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Yes I can, but I would first like you to list 10 reason why we would be better off staying within the EU. I am assuming you don't foresee any problems by us staying in the EU . You are pro-EU and therefore you must have positive reasons for your decision, because so far as I know, the referendum campaign run by Remainers did not give any benefits of why we should remain within the union.
Only negatives.. and I'm still waiting to hear any positives .... so far not one has been given.
Probably because nobody knows what will transpire within the EU. How can we when it's run by Brussels for Brussels in secretive meeting behind closed doors ? An organisation we have no influence over and they have no accountability to us , just 'jumped up Jacks', who in many cases spent their youth under the supreme command of the Kremlin and even if they think they now know about democracy they don't, because they have never truly lived it. But we have Merkel (who came from the Eastern block) and the Banks telling Greece how to run their lives,, the country in which democracy was founded over 2000 yrs ago.

To blend people in a mix needs everyone to be the same. It won't work, France hate us, Poles hate the Germans, Hungary won't budge, Italy is about to take revenge, no one can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

So tell me 10 positives of what we would gain from remaining in the EU> You are the one trying to change Brexiteers thought process so do your job and stop being an arse.

Last edited by granny; 29th Dec 2018 10:04pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063622
30th Dec 2018 2:42am
30th Dec 2018 2:42am
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Its impossible to paint a catastrophe as anything but a negative effect. But if you want a list of the benefits of being in the EU here goes.

1. An end to the tribalism that led to two world wars.
2. An appreciation that foreigners are not 'Them' but 'Us' too.
3. The freedom to wander across the EU without visas and hassle.
4. Agreed standards on stuff like meat content of sausages and fruit content of pies.
5. The chance to meet tourists from other European countries.
6. Objective one money - used across the UK to boost the infrastructure of regions traditionally underfunded by Westminster.
7. A large market freely available to UK industry without tariffs or customs
8. The fact that many companies outside the UK established factories here to supply the whole UK, giving us employment
9. A chance to spread the cost of things like thre Galileo project across 28 countries.
10. The ability of Brits to work or live in countries outside the UK.

So come on granny. Where's your list of positive aspects of a hard brexit. This is, I know, a very unfair question. You know as well as I do that there are none. Please spare us ill-defined vague babble about things like 'Sovereignty'. But do your best.

Last edited by Excoriator; 30th Dec 2018 2:43am.
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063632
30th Dec 2018 11:18am
30th Dec 2018 11:18am
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I have never heard such a pitiful list of self indulgent reasons. An end to tribalism ? It just comes in a different form now.

Freedom to wander across the eu without hassle ! My goodness, you didn't travel far before we had the EU membership. that's for sure. We used our passports !

Galileo project ? So the European nations don't have to rely upon the Russians ; I'd call that 'tribalism'

The ability for Brits to live and work in other countries.?? I lived and worked in Greece in the 1970s'... not a problem. Flew in with a passport, went to an employment bureau, got a job and started work. Only requirement was to get our passport stamped every three months at the local police station, giving permission to stay longer. That was during the years of the Junta.

Can't be bothered with the rest of the crass positives you have listed.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: granny] #1063635
30th Dec 2018 11:57am
30th Dec 2018 11:57am
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On the question of a deal,I shall call it the dulux deal one coat covers all which Terry May is proposing,it has been accepted by most that this deal is worse than staying in the EU, which leaves us two choices leave or stay, I cannot see us getting a beneficial compromise, so basically we are still at square one, how do we break the deadlock? the government bangs on about the will of the people, so why haven't we left? that was the result of the referendum, why are we trying to get a deal? well the only thing I can think of is that the leave option is not desired by those in the know who realise how damaging it will be, the politicians don't want to lose face and office by ignoring the will of the people, all this because of a power struggle in the Tory party, democracy the will of the people, really!

Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063636
30th Dec 2018 12:40pm
30th Dec 2018 12:40pm
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1)Making our own rules for our own people who have a different view on many things to Germans and French.

2)We will no longer be dictated to

3)We will keep our Royal family.. unlike all the other ' EU democracies ' that got rid , one way or another. Our Queen is the cornerstone of our society, the only lynch pin we have and I believe our politicians fail to remember that when they are seen squabbling like school children every week in PMQ's. Just as well we'll no longer be part of a newly formed European army, that of course would undermine the Monarchy even more to the great delight of many.

4)Freedom of movement ceases leaving more jobs available for our own people, and if there is more competition to fill positions , wages will rise, as they are doing already within certain sectors or low paid wages. For those who think we need cheap labour to fill shit positions, well turn a few pages back into History and compare yourselves to the Slave Trade. ... aka cheap labour, transported to countries to do work the indigenous people wouldn't do. Does it sound familiar ? Shame on you and although voluntarily coming to this country (and others) for work, of course they would when the jobs are advertised in foreign countries, by- passing the job centres in UK because the wages were so poor . However, it hasn't made our workers better off has it.. part time, 3 jobs ,minimum wage to make ends meet ? Never like that before 1990's now it the accepted norm. It will stop, where our people can get full time jobs with increased wages.

5)We will not become part of a Federal State like a USA where the taxes are all amalgamated and individual countries will lose their identity and become one big state of mixed race, where no one has a sense of belonging or values.

6)Can't see us starving or paying higher food prices. Northern Ireland Agri Food sector : http://ukfoodexports.co.uk/investnibhp.htm
Nearly two thirds of food and drink from Northern Ireland is now bought by retailers and food service organisations in other parts of the UK and increasingly further afield.

Buyers in virtually all the leading grocery retailers, including Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons, now look regularly to Northern Ireland for a broad range of fresh, frozen, chilled and processed products, from fresh meat, dairy and bakery to ready meals, convenience foods. Niche products are also to be found in the food halls at Harrods, Fortnum and Mason, Liberty and Harvey Nichols.


7)Further economic inclusion with EU is likely an economic decline. As a percentage share, British trade with the EU has fallen by almost 20% since 1999. British trade with the US, on the other hand, has grown. When Britain joined the Common Market in 1973, the EU (as it is now) produced 38% of the world’s goods and services – 38% of global GDP.
In 1993, when the EU formally began, it produced just under 25%. Today the EU produces just 17%.
The obvious explanation for this is the rise of the Asian economies, which have taken on a bigger share of global GDP.

8)Leaving the EU more or less secures our NHS. NHS could not survive if we stayed in the EU.
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership will change our NHS from being about public health to being about private wealth.
It’s not just Ukip that know it, trade unions, health workers, and even a top EU law QC knows it, along with the public who have signed anti-TTIP petitions in their hundreds of thousands.
UK, TTIP now dead in the water.

9)Policy on shipping live animals to the EU can change. Where they can end up anywhere, even beyond Europe as they are passed from one country to another in searing heat on trucks with no water.

10)The EU is embarking on one of it's most difficult periods. Far too many economists are predicting the collapse unless things change and rapidly. We do not want to be part of that, and if we stay, there is a move afoot to convert all member states to use the Euro. Which will give more control to Brussels in the form of taxes, benefits, and pensions..
We have escaped that possibility too.

11)EU subsidies for land in the UK. It goes on all over the EU, and another way of the ' EU land banking'. We will now have our own land and our government will pay the farmers subsidies to grow the crops that WE need and that are beneficial to our trade with the world. We might even feed the starving children of this world, instead of worrying about Galileo !

12)The Prison service will not be forced to become contracted out to such as French companies, and the EU integration policies for Prison services and Education will not happen . We had one of the best education systems, when outside influence takes hold it can be used as a tool to dictate who learns what and where. Already the University students of the last 20yrs have been brainwashed into the EU model of society. No longer will should that apply.

13)The railway system in UK run by 23 different franchised TOC's , might just return to normal and become a lot cheaper to travel.. Overseas firms provide half of the UK rail network , a great opportunity for British companies once contacts are due for renewal.
At Romford station, in the Essex centre of “taking back control”, there’s a choice of trains into London: those run by the Dutch, or those run by the Chinese. Anyone heading for nearby Basildon has to change at Upminster and pay a fare to the Italian firm that has been operating C2C since January.
Welsh railways fell to German-owned Arriva long ago, while ScotRail is also in the hands of the Netherlands’ Abellio. The French, as part of Govia, own much of Britain’s biggest commuter franchises, including Southern Rail. Still, the news last week that South West Trains – serving destinations such as Weymouth and Windsor from Waterloo – would from August be operated by First MTR, partly owned by the Hong Kong government, marked a tipping point in Britain’s rail franchising.


14)Open WTO instead of being confined to a Union of underachieving nation states who think and thought UK was the answer to all their dreams. That's why they all want to come here... that tells us everything really doesn't it ? We paid Millions to be part of a club we didn't like , a club that continued to take more of control, a club that told us what additives to put in our food, and said it was OK . A club that brought in millions of immigrants to be scattered all over Europe. A club that continues to threaten us when we leave, a club that has unelected Presidents like Junker who was the only candidate on the ballot sheet ! So with foresight and an expanding future I see only positives for the UK. we can leave all that nonsense, plus a lot more, behind and get on with our lives.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063637
30th Dec 2018 12:55pm
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In the News today :

Angela Merkel: Nation States Must "Give Up Sovereignty" To New World Order

“Nation states must today be prepared to give up their sovereignty”, according to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who told an audience in Berlin that sovereign nation states must not listen to the will of their citizens when it comes to questions of immigration, borders, or even sovereignty.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...es-must-give-sovereignty-new-world-order


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063638
30th Dec 2018 1:21pm
30th Dec 2018 1:21pm
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The womans got a death wish , can see her being bumped off!! Allready lots of people not happy with her and the far right is growing all the time they won't be pleased with that statement!

Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063641
30th Dec 2018 2:16pm
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What Mrs Merkel actually said was that people are more important than sovereignty, and anyone with any humanity would agree with her.

This is an example of the sort of distortion used by right-wing propaganda sites that Granny seems to read and seems to believe every word of.

I note that all the positive benefits of brexit she listed consist of rubbish like "We will not be dictated to" (we aren't anyway! There is nothing positive there at all except claims of freedoms from things we don't suffer anyway. We will not starve or suffer higher food prices because two thirds of the food produced by Northern Ireland goes to UK retailers is another risible claim. If it ALL went to UK retailers, it wouldn't feed us, Granny. It is a small proportion of what the mainland needs to survive.There are also daft rants about Chinese and Italian rail companies ripping off commuters in bonehead central, Essex. Guess what! They won't leave after brexit!

Happily, as Liam Fox hinted today, it is looking more and more like brexit is not going to happen. He put it at 50-50, but I think the odds against it happening are now a lot greater than evens.

Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063642
30th Dec 2018 2:28pm
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Only what was expected from Ex. but to be honest, you are not truly aware of many strategies that are in place for the future of the European Union, which looks very gloomy and dim .

....and the EU does dictate :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46710472

Italy's parliament has approved a revised budget for 2019, amid opposition complaints that it was dictated by the EU.

Last edited by granny; 30th Dec 2018 2:43pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063644
30th Dec 2018 3:55pm
30th Dec 2018 3:55pm
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Opposition allegations = facts?

Your confusion grows daily, Granny!

Italy uses the Euro, and as a result, its actions affect other users.

Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063645
30th Dec 2018 6:24pm
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Originally Posted by Excoriator
Italy uses the Euro, and as a result, its actions affect other users.


And that is where the problem arises, those countries for whom the Euro is over-valued and those counties for whom it is undervalued. The way it is set up it is regressive, those countries that are richer will get richer, those countries that are poorer have no hope of catching up with the richer countries.

Most countries signed up to the Euro assuming that it would drag them along with Germany's riches but of course not only has the opposite happened but it was always set up to be that way - part of the successful takeover of Europe by Germany.

France is holding on by the skin of its teeth which is being enabled by Germany needing some support, once they no longer need that support France will be demoted to the same as the Mediterranean countries.

There will be no unity in the long term, Germany clearly consider the EU as theirs, they are the controlling power despite the numerous other members.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

We should judge our economy by the absence of poverty, not the number of billionaires - Jeremy Corbyn
Re: Project reality? [Re: Excoriator] #1063654
31st Dec 2018 10:16am
31st Dec 2018 10:16am
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The Euro is not part of the EU. It is an indication of the fact that we do not lose sovereignty within the EU that we can decide for ourselves not to use it.

The advantages of it are that when you agree a price with a supplier or customer in another country for something that will not be finished for months or years, that you know how much the transaction costs. If you use different currencies, it may be a lot more or a lot less - in your currency - when the time to pay comes.

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