Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
One man (maybe two?) and a knife in an area well covered with armed police hardly sounds like its planned by a terrorist organisation. The term terrorist is used very loosely these days, the decision to call it terrorist activity is a political decision not a criminal decision.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Erm, what would you call it then DD? Quote- Definition of a terrorist. A person who uses unlawful violence intimidation ,especially against civilians in the pursuit of political aims. One person or how ever many all cowardly terrorists in my book. More than likely shouting those words I won't say.
Erm, what would you call it then DD? Quote- Definition of a terrorist. A person who uses unlawful violence intimidation ,especially against civilians in the pursuit of political aims. One person or how ever many all cowardly terrorists in my book. More than likely shouting those words I won't say.
Terrorist incident suggests they already know something about the perpetrator...in contrast to it being say a mentally ill or doped up non terrorist. No witnesses saying he was shouting in Arabic. How would police know it was for political aims? Sad day indeed.
Heartbreaking, condolences to all those involved, these people are most certainly terrorists, whether or not this incident was planned by a group or just one person is irrelevant, he or they are inspired by a religious ideology, a religion that appears to be so ambiguous that it can be interpreted to mean whatever its followers wish it to mean, eg: jihad, and until its religious leaders stand up and distance themselves from the extreme then this will continue, and I don't mean a few local headsheds ringing their hands but the the mainstay or whatever it may be deemed.
I agree with you Casper, these leaders should be doing alot more too try and stop all these crazy youth getting radicalized, let's have them all standing up and be seen to condemn it all, never happen through...
They were all in a state of shock later in the day after spending 5 hours in a secure environment with security forces like ants all over the place.
I'd like to know what intentions did one guy with a knife, hope to succeed had he gained entry to Westminster ? Not a lot, I shouldn't have thought and was there a bit of theatrical media ?
Maybe the empathy might be a bit stronger for others now, rather than the statuary 'very sorry' and 'condolences to family 'which is usually passed off without any true feelings of emotion.
It is a case of not being able to identify unless ones been hit with the same broom and I hope it doesn't happen again, but the protected now know a little more of how the ordinary man /woman/child might feel.
Last edited by granny; 23rd Mar 201712:36pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
[quote=casper]Sadly, all religions can be interpreted in that way. Even our good old Bible.
In one passage it says that its wrong to eat Halal Meat. In another it says that its a sin to waste food.
Which passages ? I can't find them with that exact meaning .
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Just think if he had lived after his jail sentence he could have become a politician and helped in bringing peace between radicalised muslims and Brits.
Getting tired of the wall to wall news items about it. Good news or maybe not 1900 new jobs going with MI5 MI6 etc
some people on here need to give there head a wobble
People have been killed, just think before posting
Does it matter if he is getting called a terrorist or not to me a terrorist is someone who makes us afraid to go there, someone post about have they found his passport maybe yes as they want people to know who they are, as for rolling news TURN THE TV OFF OR OVER THEN
Put it this way your team makes it to the cup so you book 2days in London to look around one thing most of us will like to see is big ben next thing you know your under a car from out of no-where, then people tell you the guy that's just killed most of your mates/family isn't a terrorist and it was setup as his passport was found on him.
If any of my friends or family were killed by someone, I would want the real reason they were murdered not the media's/politician's convenient version of events.
So yes, it does matter. The media are totally out of control and the politicians frequently have to pamper to them. This is desegregating society which helps these sort of events take place, a few years ago it would be much more unlikely that this guy would have got as far as he did, people would help each other and try to prevent it.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Well DD give us a clue as to what you think about this? Don't mean to offend but it seems to me you and Fish are well into conspiracy theories, do you think all these attacks are carried out by others for other purposes, just like 9/11 wasn't as it appeared?? As I say just asking not meaning to get into a disagreement.
I wonder whether the unarmed policemen guarding the Houses of Parliament have or could have had stabproof or bulletproof vests issued them. Also what if this person had had a gun or explosives, how far would he have got if not for the fact a ministerial bodyguard had just arrived by chance at that time and was able to shoot him dead.
Derek..The murdered PC was wearing a stab vest according to a police guy speaking on the news.
Cools..my last post got nothing to do with conspiracy. The first comment was a reference to murderer Martin Mcguinness who our Govt did a deal (or conspired) with so he could escape prosecution. The comment about 1900 jobs with MI5 MI6 was on BBC news. Brexit comment was just sarcasm.
After watching a Panorama programme years back showing how they would deal with a major incident in London--it was quite clear the powers that be would feed the media with what they wanted to put out in order to control the public.(including half truths and lies) So like DD I don't trust and believe everything I first hear from media outlets.
Notice how the Govt and media always refer to them as "Islamic Terrorists" rather than "muslim nutters"
Eddtheduck---I don't have a TV I just wanted to listen to something on the radio whilst driving around --getting fed up with the media interviewing all and sundry for their take on it. Radio phone ins to see if people are changing their plans to visit London. I did hit the off button.
I think the word is Kill not injure. This must be considered a big fail using your distorted reasoning as hundreds if not thousands were in terror of what was going on.A car driven on the pavement of a bridge full of people one woman's option was under a bus another in the Thames.This animal knew he was on a one way ticket to Hell and wanted to kill as many as possible.I know nutters and the odd criminal, please do not insult them. My thoughts are with the families and those who are still suffering.
...and today we see world leaders attending the funeral of Martin Mcguinness. Doesn't ring true really.
Bishopsgate 1993
and the Baltic Exchange bombing 1992
The one-ton bomb was contained in a large white truck and consisted of a fertilizer device wrapped with a detonation cord made from 45 kg of semtex. It killed three people: Paul Butt, 29, Baltic Exchange employee, Thomas Casey, 49, Baltic Exchange doorman, and 15-year-old Danielle Carter. Another 91 people were injured.[
Last edited by granny; 23rd Mar 201711:45pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Now that the media know the birth name of this convert I wish they would refer to him by that name,it feels to me as though he is being honoured by using his chosen name.
I think the guy is a nutter and a criminal, he wasn't trying to terrorise he was trying to injure.
So he is a nutter and a criminal, who wasn't trying to terrorise just trying to injure!!! if this is so what was his motive or gain from this as a criminal venture? did he get some monetary gain some reward? did he drive to London just for the thrill of mowing people down which he could of done in his hometown, well the answer is so very obvious and plain to see, he wanted maximum impact, maximum publicity for his cause, the preferred method of the terrorist now is to use what is at hand, materials to make explosives can be hard to come by and can be noticed and traced, guns in this country are hard to come by unless they have contact with the criminal underground but would they then trust the Kaffir? so we are left with a heavy vehicle and an easily obtained Knife, we now have four fatalities and some very seriously injured people and an armed attempt to enter parliament, if not for terrorism then to what end DD?
So he is a nutter and a criminal, who wasn't trying to terrorise just trying to injure!!! if this is so what was his motive or gain from this as a criminal venture? did he get some monetary gain some reward? did he drive to London just for the thrill of mowing people down which he could of done in his hometown, well the answer is so very obvious and plain to see, he wanted maximum impact, maximum publicity for his cause, the preferred method of the terrorist now is to use what is at hand, materials to make explosives can be hard to come by and can be noticed and traced, guns in this country are hard to come by unless they have contact with the criminal underground but would they then trust the Kaffir? so we are left with a heavy vehicle and an easily obtained Knife, we now have four fatalities and some very seriously injured people and an armed attempt to enter parliament, if not for terrorism then to what end DD?
The reason he may not have a real motive is why I have classed him as a nutter, ie its an irrational action.
Doing this action in his hometown could have had a much bigger impact - would you fear walking through Wallasey town centre because of this incident? To create maximum impact you choose an unusual and random target, that way everybody in the country would fear they are at risk. So the answer is not obvious nor plain to see.
The same amount of publicity would have happened wherever it occurred in the UK.
Explosives and guns are not hard to obtain/make, incendiaries are even easier. They are plain unnecessary though, as has been seen in this case, they hold higher risk without much gain.
If this was a terror plot then it has totally failed, nobody is walking around in fear of this idiot - he is dead. A terrorist would think of ways to achieve maximum terror, there is little evidence of this here, it could have been planned on the back of a fag packet in less than a minute over a pint of Watney's Red Barrel.
Try to see beyond the simplistic sensationalism of the media, the word terrorist came out long before the media knew what had happened, at best it was a wild guess, equally it could have just been a racist assumption - I read an early article that said he had stabbed most of the victims, I've yet to find an article that describes what happened but I'm not bothering to look any longer.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Its not like you to dismiss something this serious without giving it maximum thought DD, sorry but I have to disagree, designed on a fag packet it may have been but the result was exactly what he wanted, maximum publicity, you say it was an irrational action, yet it was quite similar to the attack on Fusilier Rigby, the use of a vehicle and a knife was this then another irrational action? carried out by two other nutters or was it an act of terrorism, well we all know the answer to that, I remember back to the IRA bombing campaign when we as members of HM forces we were advised to check our vehicles for devices after being left unattended, this is part and parcel of the distrust caused by terrorist action basically to have everyone looking over their shoulders, do you not think a lot of people are now doing the same its human nature fear of the unknown, so yes I think he made his impact
If the same happened in Grimsby town centre it would have the same amount of publicity as this has in London, except the perpetrator might well have still been alive and many more people in the country would be in fear of something happening in their area.
Yes a lot of impact has been made but it could have been a lot more if he'd bothered to think about the basics of terrorism hence my disbelief.
I don't know if you have seen the Theresa May evacuation from parliament, it looked like a clown show from Billy Wright's circus. God help us if we have some serious terrorists in the country if that was the performance of our (top?) security services. She had zero body cover and was left to wander around in circles, then the driver showed total uncertainty and was obviously leaving without a lead car.
In the Lee Rigby case, there was a specific target of terror - the military forces, not the general public.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I certainly agree with you on the evacuation from parliament of the icon of Vogue magazine, it was a shambles.
I also think the showing of that footage shows another lapse in security and shouldn't have been shown, and highlights a weakness in the system.
However I still disagree that if this incident had happened in Grimsby that it would have had the same impact, the emphasis here has been the attack on parliament and our so called democracy, and therefore an attack on the Crown.
Well I think the security services did great and obviously being real life not a movie , nerves will make for errors but all in all Think she was evacuated very well. I hope now that security and police officers are made to wear stab vests at all times on duty, and very strong Taser guns. Too late for poor PC Palmer.
Apart from the tragic loss of life , injuries, psychological damage to the children, and others who will no doubt be looking over their shoulders for many years to come. The obvious lack or confusion of security measures mentioned in relation to Mrs May and her exit from the Houses of Parliament,(although I didn't view it),including the fact that London is on High Alert and has been for a long while, it would seem that security have not adhered to any training for High Alert procedures, and he has had a big impact even though he alone was armed with a knife and a vehicle.
Why wasn't the policeman who died armed , as he was in a pretty important placement of position ? Why were the gates open ? Why were there no other security in the immediate area of his access point ? Westminster possibly thought it would never happen here !! Well it did.
There is another casualty too. His mother ! Although not having had contact for twenty years (according to the media reports) she has lost a son because he became an extremist ,and guilty of killing others. The pain ,anguish and probably guilt she must be carrying through her sons actions, must also be devastating.
ISIS have said they are responsible, and maybe got a grip of him when in prison. On the other hand ISIS might just be talking shit, to create a terror campaign. He may have been recruited at a very low level having got mixed up with the wrong types.
If it had been a significant intention by ISIS to harm Westminster and civilians, why no gun, or explosives ?
I personally think he was a man who has not been in total control of his actions for many years and would agree that he was a nutcase filled with anger. Isn't that the type of person that ISIS recruit in many cases i.e. people with weaknesses ?
He has had a huge impact which has raised the profile of ISIS yet again. The media have made a meal out of a situation and at the same time raised the 'anti' feelings that are running through this country like a fever to another level.
Mission accomplished . They could easily start to retaliate in defence !
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
ISIS don't have to "recruit" they are not always organised with distinct chains of command. Its very possible that the London nutter was not "part" of ISIS in any way and may never had had any contact with them other than reading watching their ideology on internet. "brainwashed" to some extent ..but then most of us are to some degree or another without realising it. What wicks me off with this guy is that he was born here, benefited from our society and still wanted to smack the hand that fed him. Can understand some muslim from another land coming here for revenge. I doubt we would have had the same media coverage if it had been a white uk male with mental illness carrying out exactly the same scenario. There was an incident few years back in London where a big black guy stormed his way through back gardens smashing down fences killing an old lady and getting shot dead one garden away from young children. Half a day media coverage because he had not taken his medicine for a while. Proud to be British !!
Andrew Neils speech Poundland Terrorist in an estate car...
Well I think the security services did great and obviously being real life not a movie , nerves will make for errors but all in all Think she was evacuated very well. I hope now that security and police officers are made to wear stab vests at all times on duty, and very strong Taser guns. Too late for poor PC Palmer.
Have you seen the video of May's evacuation? Unless the car had run her over it couldn't have been much worse.
PC Palmer was wearing a stab vest which shows that they don't make a lot of difference in real life scenarios.
Originally Posted by casper
However I still disagree that if this incident had happened in Grimsby that it would have had the same impact, the emphasis here has been the attack on parliament and our so called democracy, and therefore an attack on the Crown.
Well I feel at zero extra threat because of this incident, I also think the risk to parliament was minimal and feel no extra threat to parliament. When the IRA was bombing relatively indiscriminate targets everyone felt that their safety was threatened, I avoided numerous places including Chester.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The Police have now stated that he acted alone and his motives may never be known. Which is what I was saying, all the talk of terrorism by the media was 100% wild guesswork to make a good story.
The "terror" was created by the media even though this was an abominable act.
The Police have now stated that he acted alone and his motives may never be known. Which is what I was saying, all the talk of terrorism by the media was 100% wild guesswork to make a good story.
The "terror" was created by the media even though this was an abominable act.
Wouldn't go as far as saying 100% guesswork given the other recent vehicle attacks and being a year to the day. The running into Westminster and stabbing a PC suggests a possible political motive but as you say as possible just a lone wolf copycat nutter with no real orchestrated organisation behind it. I would be more worried about drunk drivers ---
So in the space of a couple of days the police can say he acted alone and they have no motive for the attack, wow that's excellent work, a story put forward by the same media that created the alleged terror attack story, well it must be a relief for the security services and the police to have it all sorted in such a short space of time.
Just a point on stab vests, I read there was a ISIS article published on the web on how to fatally attack someone wearing a stab vest, body armour and stab vests mainly protect vital organs but like everything the have their weakness.
DD In one breath you say you don't believe the media and in the next you're quoting the Guardian, saying he was a druggie who liked to play with knives, how do you know this is not some cock n bull by the paper to sell more, it's not like a newspaper to tell lies is it
Its usually this type of person they recruit, weak minded individuals with a criminal background or easily influenced kids, this stems from their dislike of authority whom they blame for their lifestyles and also the belief that they are unfairly treated, so they are given a cause in with to channel their hatred a way to get even or strike back, with the reward of 72 virgins at the end of it, bet they are well pissed when they find out its all lies.
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