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History behind a walking stick. #996722
1st Jan 2016 2:11pm
1st Jan 2016 2:11pm
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venice Offline OP

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We have a hand carved walking stick come to us through the family , that we would like to know a bit more about. Its in the attic at the minute so no photo, but its the written info carved into it which is the useful stuff.
Its handcarved over every inch. The handle lifts and converts when tilted 90deg , to a smokers pipe. The top shaft is square with a caged ball amongst decorative carving. On one side is carved the word PRESENT ,and next to it a match holding 'hole' covered with a copper sliding door bearing the inscription surname proably Sinnon or possibly Simon - the initials for the forename could be IJ or JS - really dont know . Next to that, the heavily carved date 1896.
The next side says (all writing heavily carved the width of stick ) FROM MOLD TO, the next one M.ROBERTS.HAWT and the last one HORN DEENE CHESTER

The lower part of the stick has scallops carved out of it all round . The funny thing is, in every scallop is clearly carved 2x2 or sometimes that , but written vertically
2
x
2
so Im thinking it might be a bespoke piece for a presentation or something.To a retiring teacher maybe?

Ive learned nothing from googling Horn Deene . The person the stick ended up with (not the owner) is dead, so we cant ask about its origin , but he never went out of the old Flintshire area as far as we know.His family were gamekeepers and farm workers/estate cooks.

Anyone know anything about whether Horn Deene was a place, school, place of work etc ? Were walking sticksa traditional retirement present once? Has anyone seen another stick with a pipe for a handle?

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Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996748
1st Jan 2016 5:44pm
1st Jan 2016 5:44pm
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That sounds like a lovely piece of work - a picture would be great to see, sometime. Have you thought of sending a photo of it to the Grosvenor Museum in Chester? They might be able to shed some light on what/where Horn Deene was, to take you further back in its tale.

Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996761
1st Jan 2016 6:09pm
1st Jan 2016 6:09pm
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Just reading your post again, it occurs to me that the carving might carry on from line to line, which would give you Hawthorn Deene. There is a house called Hawthorn Dene (only one e) at Puddington, near Chester. Perhaps you could check out census listings for the house 1891 - 1901 to see if M Roberts lived there.

Last edited by Greenwood; 1st Jan 2016 6:11pm.
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996806
1st Jan 2016 10:19pm
1st Jan 2016 10:19pm
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venice Offline OP

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Hi Greenwood. Thanks for your posts. Yes, I hadnt thought of the HAWT linked to THORN --It could be couldnt it . Not very professional looking if it is though!!Dont really thnk the Puddington 'Dene' would be involved though as the DEENE is very clear -- wouldnt know how to check a census address in any case. Think Ill do your first suggestion though when I get a photo , and see if they can throw any light on it. Thanks.

Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996817
1st Jan 2016 11:12pm
1st Jan 2016 11:12pm
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Might be, might not be. Haven't read it all and to be honest I can't understand what I have read.

Leave that to you laugh

http://www.2x2ministry.org/2x2_timeline.php

2x2 Religion Founder William Irvine

The "2x2" religion, "2 by 2" religion or "two by two" religion is the religion founded by William Irvine (Master Mason degree in 1885) in about 1897. According to William Irvine, to become a WORKER, one must sell everything (including your house), give them all your money and follow the OVERSEER'S and your older WORKER COMPANION's instructions (WORKERS assigned together call each other "companions").


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996819
1st Jan 2016 11:34pm
1st Jan 2016 11:34pm
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diggingdeeper Offline

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Excellent and interesting find granny but the sadly the dates area against you.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper] #996821
2nd Jan 2016 12:33am
2nd Jan 2016 12:33am
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granny Offline
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Excellent and interesting find granny but the sadly the dates area against you.


Oh, sorry. What date are we looking for, I thought it was 1896 ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996822
2nd Jan 2016 1:49am
2nd Jan 2016 1:49am
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diggingdeeper Offline

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Yes, two by twos was founded in Ireland in 1897, the society itself didn't use that name until many years later, it was a nickname for them.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996823
2nd Jan 2016 2:04am
2nd Jan 2016 2:04am
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venice Offline OP

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Wow ,good spotting granny -- imagine if it had been something to do with that, that would have been a real find wouldnt it . Strange co-incidence though, all these 2's .

Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996825
2nd Jan 2016 7:10am
2nd Jan 2016 7:10am
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diggingdeeper Offline

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It is remarkably coincidental, I was trying to find a precursor group but found nothing.

Also found zilch on Hawthorne Deene around Cheshire.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper] #996826
2nd Jan 2016 8:03am
2nd Jan 2016 8:03am
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A good shout by Greenwood I think.

I can find 2 mentions of Hawthorn Dene, Chester.

1889.
An Auction held by Messrs Churton Elphic & Co of Household Furniture, Pictures, etc, at,

Hawthorn Dene, Hoole Rd, Chester.

Instructions from Rev H P Ramsden (Reverend Henry Plumtre Ramsden, Inspector of Schools)


1890,

Mrs Maclaverty, Hawthorn Dene
Lady Patroness, Chester Artillery & Rifles

Haven't found the property in any census yet.


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996830
2nd Jan 2016 10:47am
2nd Jan 2016 10:47am
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Perhaps the walking stick has a tenuous connection to Noah's ark, the caged ball could be a metaphor for the Earth and every living thing caged, or confined aboard the ark. The scallops have an obvious marine theme and, of course, the animals boarded 2 x 2. I'm probably talking a load of tosh, but our forebears were very keen on symbology.

Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996834
2nd Jan 2016 2:03pm
2nd Jan 2016 2:03pm
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Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

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Yep, things are starting to jigsaw together ....

Quote
The Rev. Henry Plumptre Ramsden, 8.A., has been appointed by tbe Lord Bishop of Chester a diocesan inspector of schools for this diocese.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper] #996836
2nd Jan 2016 2:59pm
2nd Jan 2016 2:59pm
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granny Offline
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
It is remarkably coincidental, I was trying to find a precursor group but found nothing.



It did say 'about 1987', that was why I thought there was a slight discrepancy.

William Irvine was a member of the 'Faith Mission in 1896 he joined in 1895 and he was still a Freemason.

quote ""As we continue to receive word that certain itinerant workers (associated with Mr. Irvine and Mr. Cooney) frequently pass under the title of "Pilgrims" or "Faith Workers", we wish it to be observed that the name "Pilgrim" was adopted for our evangelists from the formation of the Faith Mission in 1886, and that the workers of this new association differ very widely..in aims, principles, and methods from those of our Mission"

There is so much to read about this William Irvine and another coincidence is that he had two sisters, one lived in Scotland and one lived in Wales. When he died in Israel he had been there for many years with very few possessions and I wonder if he left some of his possessions with his sister when he went to Israel . Maybe his walking stick ??

Masonic walking sticks or possibly staffs quite often had the caged ball incorporated. Maybe it was symbolic of his split with the Faith Mission and his previous Freemason connections and embarking on his new . The stick didn't necessarily have to have been made in 1896 but could have included 2 x 2 from a later date.

Well, I am a romanticist at heart, but it fits quite well so far. Pilgrims would have travelled and used a walking stick/staff and as he died of throat cancer, he probably smoked too !

There are many links I could put up but unless anyone wishes to read them there is little point, as relevant script is difficult to find amongst the massive History written about him.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice] #996837
2nd Jan 2016 3:08pm
2nd Jan 2016 3:08pm
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diggingdeeper Offline

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I'm wondering if this was connected to Chester Union Workhouse which was on Hoole Road from 1873. This had a school and a church.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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