Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past Wirral History Cross Hill ,Thingwall

Not from the other side though, Fish, where the old path leads from Thingwall to Storeton Woods (now across Holmwood Drive) . It is like an embankment along that stretch of path.
It would be interesting to see levels from OS maps for Thingwall, Landican, Cross Hill, Woodchurch.
I know Thingwall is said to be one of the highest points on Wirral.
Yesterday , I noticed the incline from Asda at Woodchurch (roughly opposite Landican Lane) up to the traffic lights at Arrowe Park. It's quite steep.

There were also three brooks in Thingwall. Landican Brook, Dale End Brook, and Thingwall Brook. They all fed into Prenton Brook.
Dale End Brook is the ancient boundary between Thingwall and Barnston, likewise Landican Brook is the ancient boundary between Landcan and Thingwall.
There is (or was) a Saxon Bridge crossing the river at Landican. It was on one of the maps and I know someone who found it, (eventually) about 15 yrs ago.

Water ,water everywhere, but 2 wells and 2 springs in Landican village has to be of some importance with regard the settlement , the priest, and the larger than average community mentioned in the DB. Originally priests just used the homestead for their gatherings , there weren't so many people to warrant a 'church' as such.

No mention of Arrowe anywhere that I can find.

One interesting point I have just read on Wikipedia about 'Wirral' it says before the Romans, Wirral was inhabited by a Celtic tribe, traders came from Gaul and the Mediterranean . Then it says " Evidence of Celtic Christianity from the 5th or 6th centuries is shown in the originally circular shape of churchyards at Bromborough, Woodchurch and elsewhere, and also in the dedication of the parish church at Wallasey to a 4th-century bishop, Hilary of Poitiers"

That would mean the circular shape at Woodchurch might have been Celtic Christian rather than Druid.

( Interesting that Wallasey was really small in the Doomsday survey. 1 villager, 1 smallholder, 1 Frenchman and 2 ploughmen)

Granny,

If it helps with the Saxon Bridge,

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/675088/2.html

Thanks Bert 1, will have a look later.

When I said someone I know found the Saxon bridge, he said it was really only remnants of it, like a bit of a post. It was shown on a Wirral Council map, which I did see but have not seen the same map since.

One side of the Saxon bridge was completely blocked up when we went in 2015.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3571323,-3.0648615,71m/data=!3m1!1e3

Can't see those images DD, because I no longer pay my rent.

Is this the footbridge, Stanley Wood. ? Repaired in 2017

Scroll down

https://briansimpsons.wordpress.com/category/bridges/

Just for you @granny ...

Oh ! I thought it was a titchy wooden thing, that was no longer. That's quite big. They must have picked up some of the building techniques from the Romans. How do we know it wasn't Roman ?

Thank you.

Parts of it are probably Roman, it’s by part of the Roman Road but it probably replaced an earlier bridge which could have been wooden.

Although its position looks like it was moved over when the railway was built, it wasn’t.

The Roman Road was the reason I mentioned it with a question mark.

A few more bits and bobs that might be of interest.

There were three main tribes in Wales One named DECEANGLI also named DECEANGI (Pronounced DECANI by a Welshman ,, (Llan- Decani ?)

Named as 'Landechene' in the Doomsday Book is clearly a Norman interpretation of an Anglo Saxon or Old English named place .

The DECEANGI tribe were iron age Germano- Celts who invaded around 100 BC and they lived in Wales , Anglesey and West Cheshire at some point their in history. Anglesey was the stronghold of the Druids and the Romans on reaching Anglesey the final conquest, slaughtered the Druids.

The Deceangni tribe mined for lead and silver .
.
"In about AD 49, Publius Ostorius Scapula, governor of Britain (47–52), marched against the Deceangli. Actually, Tacitus, who reports the event in his Annals, calls the tribe the Decangi, but inscriptions on lead ingots suggest it should really be Deceangli "

Lead ingot at The British Museum



From the middle of the seventh century the pagan Anglo-Saxons were converted to Christianity
The Vikings invaded Brittain at the very end of the 8th century.
That is the reason I am convinced Landican of today had it's own settlement with a Christian priest and 2 wells and 2 springs which were always connected in close proximity to the Christian meeting places having spiritual connections .

Then we come to the Viking god Odin. An important god in Germanic paganism .

In wider Germanic mythology and paganism, the god was known in Old English as Wōden, in Old Saxon as Wōdan, in Old Dutch as Wuodan and in Old High German as Wuotan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

Although not recorded in the Domesday Book, Woodchurch was recorded as Wude Church in 1093 .

That sounds very much like 'wooden church ' , so the site could have been named after the Viking god Odin and used for Pagan rituals prior to the Norman invasion , and maybe it was a disused Druid circular burial place, but I doubt a Christian meeting place would have been allowed to practice on a pagan site. Absolute no, no !
Thors Stone at Thurstaston and Cross Hill at Thingwall, to me seems there has been a cross over from paganism to Christianity over a period of time involving both Anglo Saxons and Vikings and each period has left behind their own pagan rituals and moved to Christianity . When the Normans arrived they had to decipher which was which, and used their own influential terms and ideology to form a new direction for all people .

We are a bit of a mixed bag really. These are only my thoughts and there is no reason why anyone should take any notice, but one day some more might turn up and send us spinning in another direction.
And all of this because I decided to clear my bookcase !

One more point of interest :
Aescwulf , the free man in Landican in the Doomsday Survey , was obviously an important Saxon leader :

Ring found :
Steyning: found during excavation, 1989; now in Worthing
Museum; gold; c. 20 mm diameter; 9th century; Old English; cescwvlf mec ah,
'Aescwulf owns me'

To jump back a bit I'll give you some heights (going round the circle).

Prenton Bridge 52ft (beside the bridge)
End of Landican Lane 71ft
Arrowe Park "Roundabout" 137ft
Entrance to cemetery 165ft
Top of Landican Road 189ft
Bottom of Landican Road 144ft
Triangle in Landican Village 136ft
Sharp bend in Landican Lane 92ft

Across the road from Crosshill Reservoir the highest point of the Ting is 225ft

And that is the problem with a village being there, its bloomin' wet, water pours down past Landican Village, its boggy land. The village road is pretty messy most of the year. We were walking through the woodland on the south and east sides of Arrowe Park recently and most of it was like mango swamps.

I guess the cemetery land was cheap because it was not much use for anything else and must have needed draining.

The field opposite Asda looks like its been raised considerably at some time, perhaps when they levelled the land for the Woodchurch estate?

Just for info, the highest ground level point I could find in Thingwall was at the northern end of Mayfield Lane at 237ft matched by Ridgewood Park, both are borderline Thingwall/Pensby. Pensby hall is 310ft then Poll Hill 358ft.

There was a well beside Holy Cross, Woodchurch and that could have been one of the two wells?

Interesting heights . Woodchurch (according to Wikipedia) 'with the centre of the village at an elevation of approximately 41 m (135 ft) above sea level.'
Therefore Woodchurch is a foot lower than Landican village at 136 ft. and considerably different to other points in your above list.
More interestingly is Thurstaston Hill at the highest point is 298 ft, the highest of all. Why was that not used as a Viking Parliament meeting place ? Maybe that's where they performed their pagan rituals.. on Thor's stone ? I think that has already been suggested many moons ago.

Was there a ' ancient well ' beside Holy Cross ? Didn't know that , and can't find anything about it, anywhere.

Settlements/ancient villages through time have nearly always been near rivers.

I doubt the fact that Landican being a muddy mess ,or anywhere else for that matter in the last few months, gives a fair picture of weather pre- climate change , 2000 yrs ago. It was clearly a village at some point in time , for a long time and therefore the conditions you experienced were maybe not usual, and even if they were, not a problem to the farming community over the generations.

As we see in the last few weeks, and people are still under water in various parts of the country with the floods, particularly villages that were built by rivers !

There are two more points in defence of the 'muddy ' Landican' lane , and Thingwall area. Firstly, the land in the area is still arable farming land and generally has good drainage all year around, secondly if the land was so wet and boggy there would not be any horses in the area as it would be too wet . As it is , Thingwall farmstead (when it was) down Thingwall Lane , is awash with horses in the fields despite the brooks .
The land is good and drains well ,in contrast to e.g. Irby , which is mostly clay or it was when I lived there. Thingwall to Landican village across from Gallopers Lane must be less than half a mile across the footpaths, which have now been closed off by the owners of a property. (That pisses me off, they move in from a town, think they can wield the rod of iron, get their own way by changing the layout of the land, call an old lane a private road, put up gates and get away with it ! )

Woodchurch estate was definitely farming land prior to the estate being built, so I'm assuming Landican Cemetery would also have been at some time . I think Woodchurch land was compulsory purchase . Population of Woodchurch in 1901 was 140. Thingwall 48, Landican 71.

Have to say, although I am not as high as Cross Hill (Ting) from my bedroom window there are fantastic views across to Liverpool and beyond . At times, when conditions are right, I can see the hills of the Pennines. (think they're the Pennines range.) I always wondered about Thingwall, Liverpool and if there was any connection with beacons at times of Parliament and communication. Another Thingwall also on Isle on Man . Would Liverpool connect to Isle of Man. We always seem to see paintings of Vikings carrying flaming torches.

That was the sort of thing Elizabeth 1 did during the Armada. Sent messages from one high point to another with beacons around the country.

....and I blame 'Ivan the Boneless' ......things could have been so much different.

Poll Hill is the highest point on the Wirral at 358ft and quite a natural shape for a defensive position. Loads of bed rock to dig into and make it what you like but it got reservoired.

Well was in the road immediately north of Holy Cross https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...=-3.09027&layers=6&right=BingHyb

The other Well is in the southern courtyard of Landican village [url]https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...3.08021&layers=168&right=BingHyb[/utl]