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#848208 - 6th Jan 2014 12:41pm Reason for no religion ?
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2747
Loc: Wirral
In the light of what Granny said about discussing the historical facts about religion,and her wishing there was a dedicated thread for it,I was puzzled why there wasnt one (It wasnt one of the suggested subjects mentioned in the introduction to LIFESTYLE ) and if you are allowed to post on the subject? Wanted to ask if people had seen a particular utube clip and what they thought of it? Ill wait for a reply before posting the clip incase the answer is 'no'--- the reason being to prevent virtual blood on the threads walls?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWX53mMWapg

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#848211 - 6th Jan 2014 12:56pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
eddtheduck Offline
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Registered: 21st Feb 2011
Posts: 1385
Loc: happy place
A careful analysis of Scripture, however, clearly indicates that December 25 couldn't be the date for Christ's birth. Here are two primary reasons:
First, we know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:7-8


). Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays , Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).
Similarly, The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues "against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted" shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.
Second, Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4




). Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.
Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, "the important fact then which I have asked you to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism" (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus , 1970, p. 62).
If Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25, does the Bible indicate when He was born? The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus' birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.
Since Elizabeth (John's mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36













), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5
). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year ( The Companion Bible , 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200).
It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a child (Luke 1:8-13






). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23-24


). Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus (Luke 1:35-36


)) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.
Although it is difficult to determine the first time anyone celebrated December 25 as Christmas Day, historians are in general agreement that it was sometime during the fourth century. This is an amazingly late date. Christmas was not observed in Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, until about 300 years after Christ's death. Its origins cannot be traced back to either the teachings or practices of the earliest Christians.
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#848213 - 6th Jan 2014 1:21pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
fish5133 Online   content
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Registered: 22nd Mar 2010
Posts: 2997
Loc: Heswallish
Watched the full version of Zeitgeist (spirit of the age) a few years back but its loaded with inaccuracies. First of all Jesus wasnt born on 25th December.The description of Horus in the film is also speculative. Horus was the falcon god and god of the sky Whilst i agree with much in the documentary about lies and deceit the documentary itself is deceitful because it first builds a straw man about Christ being born on the 25th December then proceeds to knock it down.
In one respect the Christ in the bible was correct when its recorded he said that many false christs would arise to deceive.--- th 25th of December Christ possibly being one of them.

The full version of zeitgeist including sections on politics and other things not just religion.

I can understand people wanting to rubbish Christ because the claims he made -if true- have great consequences on us. In the book Lord, Liar, Lunatic the case is put that these are the 3 positions you can come to regarding Christ. I would add ignorance and unbelief as well.


Edited by fish5133 (6th Jan 2014 1:22pm)

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#848225 - 6th Jan 2014 2:16pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
It is recognized in the Western Churches that Christ's birth was not Dec. 25th. it's date given for celebration.
Epiphany the visit of the Magi, is commemorated on January 6th.and onwards.
Referring to the below Epiphany can be extended to Ash Wednesday, within the protestant Churches, which this year would be March 5th. This could coincide with other views on the time of the birth. The calendars were also different in those days, which could also influence the date/s

"In Christianity, the Epiphany refers to a realization that Christ is the son of God. Western churches generally celebrate the Visit of the Magi as the revelation of the Incarnation of the infant Christ, and commemorate the Feast of the Epiphany on January 6. Traditionally, Eastern churches celebrated Epiphany (or Theophany) in conjunction with Christ's baptism by John the Baptist and celebrated it on January 19; however, many have begun to adopt the Western custom of celebrating it on January 6, the twelfth day of Christmas.[13] Protestant churches often celebrate Epiphany as a season, extending from the last day of Christmas until Ash Wednesday"......(wikipedia)

There is absolutely no doubt, that a babe was born in a cattle feeding trough, the shepherds would have been smelly,vagabonds at that time and not respectable folk in cloth caps and overcoats, so bad weather would not have affected them. The News also travelled fast which must have been of great importance. .




This could be a good topic Venice, to explore other peoples findings. Nothing is complete. The bible is continually explored and has been for thousands of years, by dedicated historians from all faiths and oh what a mystery it is.
Will view your vid later.


Edited by granny (6th Jan 2014 2:23pm)
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848226 - 6th Jan 2014 2:16pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2747
Loc: Wirral
Oh, I thought Id deleted that line with the clip. Sorry if its out of order Mark . No doubt you'll delete it if its inappropriate. I thought fish must just have made a good guess at the clip till I read my original post!
Usually, religious discussions I have seen , are short, because there are no comeback arguments to personal faith , and any amount of historical facts will not be relevant to those people.
I hadnt realized at first that this vid was one of a series, Ill have to have a blimp at the others for a rounder picture.

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#848400 - 7th Jan 2014 1:09am Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Have just watched the vid, and then googled Jordan Maxwell, trying to find out who this crank was.
Sorry Venice,it would appear that he is not a very popular chap and some of you may like to read the following:


Debunking Jordan Maxwell by Chris White


Chris White states:


This is a film detailing the many mistakes and outright lies of Jordan Maxwell. After months of research and checking Jordan Maxwell’s “facts” I found him to be a very deceptive and manipulative teacher. In addition to debunking many of his claims, this film looks at his motivations and associations and shows that his philosophy is exactly that of the so called New World Order, although it’s very cleverly hidden.

I used to believe everything this man said. Not anymore. Does the sun die on the cross of the zodiac? Does Christ mean “oil”? Does anoint mean “sex”? Is God merely a volcano? Does the ark of the covenant represent the feminine ability to give life? Did King Solomon exist? Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On? Does OM mean The Sun? Do we call turning on lights “on” because of Heliopolis? Does Solomon’s temple represent sex? Was Manna in the bible psychedelic mushrooms? Does mushroom art in the 1200 speak for Christianity? Does Judaism come from Saturn Worship? Did the Egyptians say the sun was setting because of their god Set? Does Yahweh or YHWH mean the building up and releasing of dynamic energy? And is it associated with sex? Did Jordan Maxwell get his name from Blavatsky’s “Jordanus Maximus” and why is he lying about it?

Jordan calls for a new world order. He says God communicates with us only through symbols. He says the non-human/human hybrids are here and that they have a “divine right” to rule over us and that he is smart enough to accept it. He also says that these hybrids are going to reward him for understanding their symbols. Jordan Maxwell describes his encounter with aliens. He also explains how he told these entities that he would do their will as long as they didn’t come to him in his room or “abduct” him.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848401 - 7th Jan 2014 1:27am Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Moving on:

Does anyone have any interest in the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' and the intrigue surrounding them? Some date back to as early as 150 BC.
Thought to have been written over a period of 200 yrs and hidden in caves from the advancing Roman Army.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/deadseascrolls.html
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848441 - 7th Jan 2014 11:10am Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
svenlock68 Offline
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Registered: 27th Nov 2011
Posts: 279
Loc: svenlock68
read the Richard dawkins book "the god delusion"
funny thing is....if there was no religion in the world would it be worse off???....
less wars, conflict, hatred, division, honour killings, be headings, poverty , cherry picking what part you like etc.
A lot of religions are VERY RICH
they always want MORE
A lot of animal suffering/ cruelty is caused by religions thinking animals are lower class..
theres too many around the world to take them seriously
its all meaningless....
theres a new powerful religion called "being rich , making money,being selfish, im all right jack, MANY FOLLOW THIS ONE.....ESP IN THE UK

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#848451 - 7th Jan 2014 12:38pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Many will know Richard Dawkins and his attempt to shatter any ones belief in anything apart from his own, and is not thought very highly of by many scholars or academics, religious beliefs or not.

quote
5. Meaning & purpose


In the first of his Christmas Lectures, Dawkins says that:

Some of life must be devoted to living itself; some of life must be devoted to doing something worthwhile with one's life, not just to perpetuating it. [CL 1]

But this stands in complete contradiction to his other assertion that 'propagating DNA...is every living object's sole reason for living' [CLSG, p21].

4.Much of Dawkins' world-view depends on his odd claim that 'religion is a scientific theory'. I know of no professional philosopher who makes such a assertion. An attempt to justify such a contentious claim is long overdue if Dawkins' position is to be taken seriously..
Article written by Michael Poole

To the rest of your claim Svenlock, yes you are right but for no world faiths at all, can you imagine how it would really be? Human nature is what it is, and man is greedy, and barbaric etc. but this is not attributed to faith, those with any true faith do not go down the same pathway. Maybe this was the reason for the first books of the bible (the Jewish book) to be written. A guide as to how we should live our lives for our fellow human. Todays problems are mentioned in Revelations .
Surely, if we denounce the code by which we live, we have no code at all. That is what the Bible, Torah, Quran and others teach about. Jewish tradition is based on the Torah and Christians are obviously an off-shoot branch of Judaism.

..and for anyone who might think I know loads about the different faiths, you are wrong. I actually know very, very little, but my beliefs spur me to find out answers to questions that for me , need answering. The questions never stop and it is healthy to question. No one should feel inferior for wanting answers to anything. I hope someone here can answer some of my questions.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848460 - 7th Jan 2014 1:43pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Derek DwC.

My first question( at the moment) would be:

Was Barabbas and Jesus mixed up ? Barabbas's name was Jesus Barabbas and 'Bar abba' means 'son of the father. Jesus in Hebrew was Yeshusa.
Barabbas was a terrorist trying to overthrow the Romans but Pilot saw no harm in Jesus and threw the decision to the crowds.
Pilots question:

"Thus, in a seemingly inconsequential legal decision that still quakes through the centuries, Pilate was in essence asking the Jerusalem crowd:

"Which one do you want me to release to you:
Yeshua son of the father or Yeshua son of the father,
whom his followers call Messiah?" "

Second question is : Jesus knew, all his followers at that time would more than certainly have been executed, did he go to his death as a martyr? Thus they suffered from guilt afterwards. Not that it had been pre destined
'He died that we might be saved' and 'he died for our sins'


Edited by granny (7th Jan 2014 1:47pm)
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848503 - 7th Jan 2014 3:58pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
Snodvan Offline

Forum Addict

Registered: 19th Mar 2008
Posts: 1279
Loc: Wallasey Village
During a few visits to the USA I have had the misfortune to have seen some of their TV - and that included suffering some of the religious guff put over (often very eloquently) by those who in my opinion had only one objective ie to extract $ from the viewers.

I have a cousin in the USA who belongs to a particular religious sect and I have seen / heard his pronouncements which similarly centre on extracting $. Nominally those $ are for "projects" which always include building new churches in countries along the Andean chain. Sure, they DO also build/ provide some health centres and the like but having seen my cousin's lifestyle I have to question what % of extracted $ actually goes to the good of others.

I was brought up/ confirmed as a Christian and member of the C of E. However, more and more I come to think that a very, very large part of what is contained in the text book (bible) is just fairy stories given a gloss of authenticity by churches of various types. Sure, I am 100% able to believe that 2000 odd years ago there was a guy called Jesus (of perfectly normal origins) who happened to be a good thinker/ teacher with a kind spirit for the common people and who gave talks offering advice on the ways to live/ behave. Yep, the authorities did not like that and he was trashed as a result. No miracles, resurrection etc, just a nice guy who cared for others

In the same way at a different date Mohammed did just the same sorts of things for folk in another part of the world.

Both of these guys have had some of their thoughts recorded and those records have in general been mangled/ misinterpreted by others over centuries - I suspect often for their own purposes.

My own inclination these days is towards Buddhism. Buddha was a normal man who was also a good thinker/ teacher and cared for the general masses. No "God" or any such claim although some of his followers regard him as god-like. It is very difficult to understand and follow Buddhism so I stick to the very basics which seem to make sense. As with the Christian and Moslem faiths there are many sub-divisions of Buddhism and I am struggling to get to grips with those. Fortunately TOLERANCE is one strong guide in Buddhism and so there is minimal agro between the various sub-divisions

Snod
_________________________
5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness

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#848543 - 7th Jan 2014 5:57pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
svenlock68 Offline
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Registered: 27th Nov 2011
Posts: 279
Loc: svenlock68
One thing I do know is the definition of faith is to believe without evidence. Why waste ones life on praying before something or some one you'll never ever have proof of or meet.
I have an independent mind which questions things. A religious mind doesn't. Man is inherently evil but can be good. I don't need an old book to tell me that. Merely a story.
Fifty years ago we couldn't positively prove DNA humans connection to apes. Now we can. Catholics faith is built on guilt. Period.
People are bored of religious beliefs
The old testament is full of hatred and violence. But as usual with religion its tamed over time to appease the masses and keep them in line.
If a female denounces Christianity no one bothered but if its Islam its a death sentence.
That's got to be wrong. Religion. I don't need it. Sorry

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#848642 - 7th Jan 2014 11:13pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral

It is interesting to read peoples ideas ,views lack of belief ,for whatever reason. That does not concern me as an individual. Everyone to their own.
We don't need to put our whole belief and understanding in miracles or classroom stories. What I do find hard to understand, is the fact that most people have an interest in Roman History, Greek History, Egyptian History, Turkish History, Ethiopian History but not the Jewish History. That itself is a huge part of all the other histories. They are all intertwined and as the Jewish race is the oldest race on the planet, why is there no interest? Very strange.
Even today archaeologists are finding cities, temples, tombs, artifacts which relate to the geographical sites in ancient biblical books.
Never mind, it's quite obvious that there is no interest in this subject.
It was worth a try Venice.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#848665 - 8th Jan 2014 9:55am Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: venice]
svenlock68 Offline
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Registered: 27th Nov 2011
Posts: 279
Loc: svenlock68
what I do believe tho is man will always reap the consequences of his lifestyle.....
eating drinking rubbish and smoking ends in early death and cancers, were now in the uk like the americans FAT AND JUST CONSUMERS
Our love and constant yearning for money and material possessions will degrade us into the savages we are
our tunnel vision of consumption of animal products thus making animals part of a huge consumption process then we moan about finding out were eating a £1 horse
were meant to feel sorry for people in wars and tsunamis yet we continue to destroy the earth and environment with our lifestyles
WE are the most destructive dangerous harmful animal on earth....period.
I have no sympathy for people floating to their death, or wars that kill between supposed neighbours, our illness, mother nature killing on mass with storms etc earthquakes, our starvation of whole countries, our back lash from over consumption of money (recession) etc etc
Its just KARMA and we deserve it.....we think theres no consequence to what we do......but there is.

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#848687 - 8th Jan 2014 1:27pm Re: Reason for no religion ? [Re: svenlock68]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14434
Loc: Wirral
Careful Sven.

The word 'Karma' has it's origin in ancient India and Hinduism. Ideas connected to reincarnation and re-birth.

smile
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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