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#760545 - 23rd Jan 2013 6:37pm Offshore Windfarms
ponytail Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 31st Dec 2008
Posts: 578
Loc: wirral
Does anyone know if the company owners of the turbines sell the energy to the National Grid? I cannot find any details on any of the websites.


Edited by ponytail (23rd Jan 2013 6:37pm)

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#760548 - 23rd Jan 2013 6:44pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
El_Aych Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 12th Jan 2013
Posts: 43
Loc: Wekka
Look up feed in tariffs

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#760554 - 23rd Jan 2013 7:10pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
davew3 Offline
Forum Guide

Registered: 16th Jun 2009
Posts: 1024
Loc: Wirral
New line going in from Wallasey to a junction at Flint Power station, the ones from Hoyle and the new one's now going in seem to be going towards Prestatyn.

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#760727 - 24th Jan 2013 10:27am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Neil_c Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 27th Sep 2009
Posts: 417
Loc: birkenhead
the new line, called the western link (http://www.westernhvdclink.co.uk/) isn't just for a wind farm but to transmit more power from Scotland. Why they didnt just lay it in the Dee instead of bringing it across Wirral, I don't know.

They do sell the electricity to the grid. The amount of energy generated (3.6MW) is small compared to a traditional coal or nuclear power station(Fiddler's ferry generates 1,989 MW).

Wind energy alone will never be able to meet the UK's power needs.

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#760749 - 24th Jan 2013 11:46am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
BandyCoot Offline

Forum Veteran

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5360
Loc: Birkenhead
They couldn't do the Dee because it would disturb all the shoit hawks apparently.
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#760751 - 24th Jan 2013 11:55am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Pinzgauer
Unregistered


Interesting link Neil_c. Thanks. Not Wirral related, but I wish them the best of luck laying cable through the Beaufort Dyke. A few years ago they laid a gas interconector through the Dyke. Loads of explosive goodies washed up on the beaches around here as a direct result. Mostly contents of White Phosporous bombs and shells. The place was a dumping ground for ordnance of every description AND highly radio-active gunge for years! All good stuff! shocked

Local fishermen report numerous random explosions going off regularly. Seismic confirmation in most cases too. If you have an hour or two to spare, Google Beaufort Dyke. Enjoy !


Edited by Pinzgauer (24th Jan 2013 11:58am)

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#760817 - 24th Jan 2013 6:17pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
ponytail Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 31st Dec 2008
Posts: 578
Loc: wirral
Neil - do you know if an off-shore wind farm can somehow send its energy and link into this cable from Scotland to England, thus supplying more power.

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#760867 - 24th Jan 2013 7:55pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Neil_c Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 27th Sep 2009
Posts: 417
Loc: birkenhead
These types of HVDC (high voltage direct current) links are becoming more common as submarine cables as countries trade electricity with each other.

There is one that passes through Blackpool to the Isle of Man and another between the UK and France. They use DC because it suffers less power loss for long distance and avoids large currents required to charge and discharge the cable.

Windfarm generated electricity will pass through the cable as it's all connected to the National Grid.

I believe the only way that we'll ever have renewable energy nationwide is when they manage to crack nuclear fusion on a commercial scale.

Although I'm not for fission nuclear power, the next round of power stations that the government propose might buy us enough time to crack fusion, particularly as they should last a lot longer than the previous Magnox reactors.


Edited by Neil_c (24th Jan 2013 8:04pm)

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#761024 - 25th Jan 2013 9:59am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
ponytail Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 31st Dec 2008
Posts: 578
Loc: wirral
Can you feed in from off-shore wind farms into the submarine cables?

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#761049 - 25th Jan 2013 11:19am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Neil_c Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 27th Sep 2009
Posts: 417
Loc: birkenhead
Yes, but they work at different voltages. The western link is 600KV (the backbone of the UK national grid is 400KV and 275KV). A windfarm won't generate anywhere near this (typically 12KV). So the voltage has to be stepped up so it would need to pass through a signifcant substation.

The higher the voltage, the less current loss so it's more efficient to transmit electricity at very high voltages. If you're interested in the History of this, look up the war of currents between Tesla & Westinghouse Vs Edison on wikipedia.

Furthermore the AC current needs to be converted to DC to feed into the cable. This is now done by inverters, but in the past huge mercury arc rectifiers were used.

So the answer is yes, but there will be a substation to convert the voltages and types of current.

With this cable, it would have been ideal to send it down the Dee, but for fear of distrubing a natterjack toad, they've decided to butcher Wirral.


Edited by Neil_c (25th Jan 2013 11:22am)

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#761068 - 25th Jan 2013 12:16pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: Neil_c]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
You obviously know a lot about systems, Neil_c. What you wrote in your previous post about AC versus DC surprised me; I'd always thought that the voltage drop with DC was greater than with AC.
Oh, and I well remember the mercury rectifiers which were in the local substations when I was young and the houses worked on DC. They were a scary sight.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

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#761089 - 25th Jan 2013 1:04pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Gibbo Offline
Forum Addict

Registered: 27th Dec 2010
Posts: 1787
Loc: Oxton
While on the subject of offshore windfarms:

Ireland to build 'giant' wind turbines to power UK homes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21147279

Under the plan, a number of companies are seeking to erect hundreds of wind turbines across the boggy midlands of Ireland. The power generated would be transferred to the UK via undersea cables that would join the grid at two points in Wales.


Edited by Gibbo (25th Jan 2013 1:04pm)

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#761537 - 26th Jan 2013 6:36pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
ponytail Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 31st Dec 2008
Posts: 578
Loc: wirral
Another company is proposing a giant off-shore windfarm and seeking to manipulate the local population into believing they could somehow benefit from it. 2 years ago planning applications were turned down, now they are being considered. This could be part of a network to filter energy to England\Wales. Ultimately, meaning profits for the company building the off-shore and in the constant supply of power to the National Grid. I cannot prove anything yet as I am not experienced in the technology of linking power into the underground cables.

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#761543 - 26th Jan 2013 6:54pm Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
Neil_c Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 27th Sep 2009
Posts: 417
Loc: birkenhead
all windfarms and in fact any other way of generating electricity will always feed back into the grid so nothing benefits the local population as such. It's no secret, there simply isn't any other way of doing it. You can look at national grid's maps with are publically available on the net to see where stuff connects if you want.

My home solar panels feed into the grid by phase-matching to the mains power through a device called an inverter. This takes the low voltage DC (14-28V) from the solar panel and makes it into 230V AC.

Electricity can't be stored on a commercial scale. This is why my home system feeds back electricity. The electricity I generate won't get very far (someone in my street would use it) and most of the time it will be used entirely by stuff in my home.

Wind power is exactly the same. A wind farm of about 90MW will just feed electricity into the grid at some point for use by the general population. This PDF shows you how it all connects together.

This is what the national grid is all about and why it was invented. They predict demand and make sure there is enough electricity going into the grid from power stations, wind farms and abroad etc to keep the lights on.

Before 1924 electricity was locally generated, this meant that there were different standards all over the country and local power stations could no sell excess electricity to other places. You couldn't guarantee that the hair straightners you bought in Liverpool would work in Newcastle at the time. Birkenhead once had its own generating station in Bentwick Street.

Now electricity is supplied either through a link with Lister Drive, Liverpool (through the Bhead road tunnel) or from Capenhurst in Ellesmere Port. Prenton substation steps the electricity down for local use.

As for viability of windfarms, I'm not really qualified to comment on the economics of them; it's far more than just electricity and payback period, but the jobs that they bring to the local area where they are installed. This was why the likes of Traws nuclear powerstation was built with so little resistance, local people wanted it for the employment and local work it would bring.


Edited by Neil_c (26th Jan 2013 7:02pm)

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#762341 - 29th Jan 2013 10:47am Re: Offshore Windfarms [Re: ponytail]
BandyCoot Offline

Forum Veteran

Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5360
Loc: Birkenhead
Some very good gen on this one, cheers. If anyone doesn't like it all they have to do is turn all their electric off and go and buy some candles. It's always going to be in someones backyard. Cammell Lairds has part of the contract so Birkenhead should welcome windmills. Either way we need the power so it's really a no brainer.
_________________________
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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