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Brexit breakthrough. #1049493
8th Dec 2017 4:21pm
8th Dec 2017 4:21pm
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wirral
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The two sides have been arguing over whether a circle or a square is the more acceptable. They have now reached an agreement as to what they are both happy with.

It is a circle with four corners!

Further work is clearly necessary in order to work out what exactly this desirable shape is, but for the moment the two sides are in full agreement as to what they want.

Let us rejoice that they can now get on with discussing trade, where we can be confident a deal of similar brilliance will eventually emerge.

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Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049494
8th Dec 2017 4:29pm
8th Dec 2017 4:29pm
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Brinkmanship or showmanship?


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049495
8th Dec 2017 4:40pm
8th Dec 2017 4:40pm
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[quote=Excoriator]
It is a circle with four corners!

A boxing ring, quite appropriate

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049496
8th Dec 2017 5:19pm
8th Dec 2017 5:19pm
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Well, I said four corners, but the DUP may be expecting five. Who knows?

Neither brinkmanship nor showmanship, but rather bullship - or a word rather like it. Anyone who believes this is an agreement worth a bucket of warm spit is gullible to the extent where psychiatric intervention needs to be seriously considered.

It is actually a way of ignoring an irreconcilable problem in the hope that it will somehow solve itself. I can see only two ways in which this might be done.

1. UK remains in the customs union, which may involve free movement of people too
2. The EU abandons the customs union.

Option 1 seems rather more likely than option 2 somehow.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049497
8th Dec 2017 5:26pm
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[youtube]v=Fjo0A4pY7RI&t=18s[/youtube] The UK look like mugs.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049509
8th Dec 2017 8:47pm
8th Dec 2017 8:47pm
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At long last a breakthrough, tired after a long night of tough negotiations the PM hailed the meeting as a success, although clearly suffering from fatigue she gave a brief of what had occurred, we now have the confidence to move forward, I am pleased to announce that the EU have offered us nothing and in the interests of moving forward we have decided to accept.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049510
8th Dec 2017 9:02pm
8th Dec 2017 9:02pm
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But basically as Farage said, we have given in to everything the EU wanted and that is probably how the story will continue.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: diggingdeeper] #1049512
8th Dec 2017 11:41pm
8th Dec 2017 11:41pm
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Well, what did you and Farage expect?

I keep on saying it but it appears not to have sunk in. WE HAVE NO CARDS TO PLAY. The EU knows it too. Indeed anyone who has thought brexit through beyond the slogans, hype, bullshit and lies that characterised the leave campaign will know it too.

If you voluntarily put yourself in a position of someone who has swept out of an organisation without making careful plans about your future, and with nothing to offer that is indispensable to that organisation, then you ARE a mug! It is no use complaining that you look like one when you've done it, and you are likely to get short shrift from the organisation if you ask them for good leaving terms.

May seems to have set us up for continued tariff-free membership, although the 'agreement' skates around it, which I think is a least-worse brexit. What her party's lunatic fringe will think of it is another matter of course. The BAD thing about such an arrangement is that we have given up any control over it. The EU can change the rules as they see fit. It may not be to the UK's benefit, but you can't blame them for that. We left of our own accord. Nobody pushed us out.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049520
9th Dec 2017 4:12am
9th Dec 2017 4:12am
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I think you completely underestimate our role in the EU, we are one of the main financiers.

In 2014 the UK paid 13% of all net contributions in the EU, 2015 was 27%, 2016 was 15% and 2017 is going to be just over 20% I think.

Germany's contribution has been going down, France's contribution has been going down, ours is going up (although ours see-saws, low year, high year, low year etc for some reason). Yet Germany's and France's GDP have been going up.

The EU already has a 20bn+ deficit for 2017 and is looking to plug that hole, guess where much of that is planned to come from whether we leave or not.

The EU knows full well that a lot of the economically smaller countries are highly dependent on EU payouts, if the EU can't fund them, they will probably leave.

In the worst case, what is so wrong with WTO rules, there are many countries in the world trade using them, including the EU.

To minimise administration we could agree a fixed tariff of 2% on everything between the EU and UK (in both directions). That saves us money and cost the EU, if they don't like that the only option is to go with tariff free trading, we don't gain, they don't lose.

A tariff free agreement makes sense for the EU not the UK.

The only thing that the EU offers is price fixing, the idea of taxing people to pay the EU to pay the farmers to reduce the price of products to the consumers is madness.

We were way ahead of the EU on human rights before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on safety before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on state health services before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on unemployment before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on law and order before we joined.

Our standard of living in the UK is dropping unbelievably. A friend of mine in Romania has a lowered car, the roads there are brilliant, he has no problems. He couldn't drive that car in this country, the roads are terrible, even our motorways are like bucking broncos.

Street lamps, we have two defective ones outside my home. Doctors, nearly impossible to get appointments. A&E chocker despite having two secondary services added to relieve their load. Police, I remember seeing one of them a week or so ago. Vandalism, see a new piece of that nearly daily within 100ft of my home. Energy supplies at a near critical state. Watelands being created.

Food prices up, insurance prices up, energy prices up, travel prices up, disposable income going down.

So just how is the EU helping us?

Oh yes, we get pretty bits of metal stuck on corners and roundabouts that rust away and end up looking like a Steptoe reject. Parklands get restored and immediately start going to rack and ruin despite being classed as "sustainable". New houses and commercial property built in the most haphazard of plans and good things destroyed to make way for them.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049524
9th Dec 2017 9:59am
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If - as seems to be increasingly accepted - we join the European free trade area so goods can travel freely between the UK and the EU, then this will greatly restrict our ability to trade outside the EU.

If you have a situation where the EU has a trade agreement with - say - China which imposes an import tariff on solar panels so as to protect the European solar panel industry, then the UK will have to do the same. Otherwise, Chinese manufacturers will simply import the panels into the UK, and truck them across to the continent without paying a penny on them. We will have to have exactly the same relationship to other countries as the EU does if it is to work.

Will the UK be able to stop the EU setting up trade agreements with other countries if the UK objects? I doubt it very much!

It would appear that we will remain in the EU economically, but have abandoned all control over our economic affairs. This may save a few billion but long term is a clear economic disaster.

If you want to complain about the way this country is run, then you can blame the government. Their policy of austerity is what is responsible for your street lights being broken and the difficulty you have in seeing a doctor etc. They spend 1500 a year per head more on London transport infrastructure than anywhere else, fifty times more on arts funding in London, and the list goes on and on. This is all self-inflicted and nothing to do with the EU.

The reason the EU has beaten us is that they are, generally, better governed than us. My personal opinion is that we would have done a lot better had the Westminster government been abolished in favour of a central European government. They are no friend of any Briton living outside the south-east.

It is brexit which has caused food prices to rise, and it won't stop there. You can expect to see them go up a lot more! Time you stopped trying to blame the EU for the UK's stupidity in deciding to leave.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: diggingdeeper] #1049526
9th Dec 2017 11:36am
9th Dec 2017 11:36am
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
I think you completely underestimate our role in the EU, we are one of the main financiers.

In 2014 the UK paid 13% of all net contributions in the EU, 2015 was 27%, 2016 was 15% and 2017 is going to be just over 20% I think.

Germany's contribution has been going down, France's contribution has been going down, ours is going up (although ours see-saws, low year, high year, low year etc for some reason). Yet Germany's and France's GDP have been going up.

The EU already has a 20bn+ deficit for 2017 and is looking to plug that hole, guess where much of that is planned to come from whether we leave or not.

The EU knows full well that a lot of the economically smaller countries are highly dependent on EU payouts, if the EU can't fund them, they will probably leave.

In the worst case, what is so wrong with WTO rules, there are many countries in the world trade using them, including the EU.

To minimise administration we could agree a fixed tariff of 2% on everything between the EU and UK (in both directions). That saves us money and cost the EU, if they don't like that the only option is to go with tariff free trading, we don't gain, they don't lose.

A tariff free agreement makes sense for the EU not the UK.

The only thing that the EU offers is price fixing, the idea of taxing people to pay the EU to pay the farmers to reduce the price of products to the consumers is madness.

We were way ahead of the EU on human rights before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on safety before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on state health services before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on unemployment before we joined.

We were way ahead of the EU on law and order before we joined.

Our standard of living in the UK is dropping unbelievably. A friend of mine in Romania has a lowered car, the roads there are brilliant, he has no problems. He couldn't drive that car in this country, the roads are terrible, even our motorways are like bucking broncos.

Street lamps, we have two defective ones outside my home. Doctors, nearly impossible to get appointments. A&E chocker despite having two secondary services added to relieve their load. Police, I remember seeing one of them a week or so ago. Vandalism, see a new piece of that nearly daily within 100ft of my home. Energy supplies at a near critical state. Watelands being created.

Food prices up, insurance prices up, energy prices up, travel prices up, disposable income going down.

So just how is the EU helping us?

Oh yes, we get pretty bits of metal stuck on corners and roundabouts that rust away and end up looking like a Steptoe reject. Parklands get restored and immediately start going to rack and ruin despite being classed as "sustainable". New houses and commercial property built in the most haphazard of plans and good things destroyed to make way for them.


clap clap clap

With regard to Ex's comments. London have a population of almost 9 million. The need for more is obvious.

Greater London covers an area of 611 square miles. The need for good transport infrastructure is imperative.

For some living in the South East might be the lap of luxury but for most, they struggle more than we do up here. It's pure fallacy to think that everyone south of Bedford has a better existence. They do not, neither do they in East Anglia. It's a struggle for many and they get no more in benefits that anywhere else in the country.

One big difference, they still have their communities down there in the villages and small towns. They help each other, in a far better way than we do up here. We think the answer to all ills is to give a can of beans to the food bank once a week. Community spirit and all of that, and think such a noble act deserves reward.

Maybe in the north, jealousy motivates our reasoning and ability to realise that we actually have the better option. Try and figure out how a young mother of 3 boys is able to pay almost 1000 a month in rent for a shit little terraced house in a Kent village, where there's hardly any work or industry. Try and figure out how a family of 5 can afford to pay 900 per month for a 2 bedroom bungalow , in the heart of the countryside where there is no shop, school, post office, of facility apart from a church. This is the rural community down there, and they travel 30/40 miles day to work if need be.

Some people up here live on cloud cuckoo, thinking that they are so hard done by in this part of the country.

A 'Super Off Peak' return rail ticket from Ashford in Kent to London is approx. 30 , a 45 minute journey. To add to that Southern Rail is owned by Keolis ,70% owned by "National society of French railways

Last edited by granny; 9th Dec 2017 11:43am.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049531
9th Dec 2017 12:25pm
9th Dec 2017 12:25pm
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I was talking, clearly about per capita spending. There is no reason why per-capita spending should be greater in London than in Liverpool or Glasgow, but it is. And not just by a bit, but by orders of magnitude!

Take a look at these:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...s-much-infrastructure-north-east-england
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ent-in-transport-is-in-london-says-study
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/nov/05/arts-spending-london-bias
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...er-head-for-flood-defences-a6955501.html

as examples.

And nobody is claiming most people in London benefit from it much either. The real beneficiaries are the wealthy. It is sheer bad incompetent, selfish governance, and in the end that benefits nobody.

Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049538
9th Dec 2017 4:53pm
9th Dec 2017 4:53pm
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Per capita is a bit misleading in business and industrial areas, you can have hardly anyone living there but needs massive infrastructure to deal with the amount of people that commute.

Also London possibly has a higher percentage of illegals than most places.

Crime rates will also be higher than average due to more lucrative pickings being available as well as high anonymity.

The Government are currently trying to force Channel 4 out the capital as part of the decentralisation program.

Many areas, not just London have there own reasons for requiring higher expenditure. The Wirral has a disproportionate amount of coast, this increase maintenance and transport costs, reduces the amount of development land as well as a reduced ability to share services because it has disproportionality less shared borders with other authorities.

I'm not a lover in centralisation but it happens independently in every country, its built into the human psyche.


In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
Re: Brexit breakthrough. [Re: Excoriator] #1049880
14th Dec 2017 2:01pm
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