WikiWirral 16yrs online 24/7 365 days a year.
Forum Statistics
Posts1,028,604
Topics75,645
Members13,534
Forums65
Posts in last 24hrs19
Most Online14,906
Nov 23rd, 2019
Who's Online Now
44 registered members (11kendo, 9 invisible), 1,719 guests, and246 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


Popular Topics(Views 7days)
336 Boaty
New General Forums
The earth at night.
by mikeeb. 25th Oct 2020 12:31pm
UK Spies
by granny. 16th Oct 2020 7:00pm
You asked me.
by GingerTom. 12th Oct 2020 9:11am
What do you make of this ??
by granny. 5th Oct 2020 2:25pm
New Wirral History
Wirral Way grids
by mikeeb. 24th Oct 2020 10:11am
North Star in Bentinck ST
by derekdwc. 14th Oct 2020 9:44pm
Road leading to Queensway tunnel
by chris58. 11th Oct 2020 10:11pm
Genealogical Research - Macmillan
by Alex_Macmillan. 10th Oct 2020 11:57am
Poulton road sweet shop
by karl1972. 7th Oct 2020 11:21am
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Boaty McBoatface takes shape
The gathering storm: Mersey waterfront today
Topic Replies
When Damascus Falls !
by granny. 27th Oct 2020 11:44pm
Leisure Centres Re-Open - or NOT
by diggingdeeper. 27th Oct 2020 9:59pm
TV prob
by lincle. 27th Oct 2020 9:14pm
Boaty
by granny. 27th Oct 2020 4:35pm
Scratch repairs
by Paintboffin. 26th Oct 2020 7:44pm
Women's Size 4 Puma Suede Trainers
by Julie64. 26th Oct 2020 1:26pm
Genealogical Research - Macmillan
by Alex_Macmillan. 26th Oct 2020 12:05pm
View Ranger
by mikeeb. 26th Oct 2020 11:44am
Mountain bike forks
by karl1972. 26th Oct 2020 7:40am
October
M T W T F S S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Recent Posts : What's On ?
View Ranger
by mikeeb. 26th Oct 2020 11:44am
Previous Topic
Next Topic
Print Topic
Rate Topic
Catalan Claims #1046585
28th Oct 2017 8:57am
28th Oct 2017 8:57am
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,733
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline OP
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline OP
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,733
wirral
Desperate efforts are being made by Farage, the Torygraph and the potty Express to persuade us that Catalan's rejection of Spain is a rejection of the EU.

It is nothing of the sort of course. Catalan would really love to be part of the EU as an independent nation, although this would be embarrassing to Spain. Should Catalan actually manage to secede, I imagine the EU will not recognise it for about 20 or 30 years when tempers will have cooled to the extent when it will admit Catalonia with Spain's agreement.

It is an internal Spanish dispute, and apart from having to remain on good terms with both sides, nothing to do with the EU. Spain, like all the other members of the EU, is a sovereign nation and will have to handle the dispute as best it can.

Madrid seems to have handled it very badly. They would have been wiser, I think, to allow a non-binding referendum in the region. According to the polls, the 'leavers' - although numerous, are not in the majority.


Google Ads
Re: Catalan Claims [Re: Excoriator] #1046595
28th Oct 2017 6:17pm
28th Oct 2017 6:17pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
Difficult call on the result of a real referendum. It wouldn't be the first poll where people intentionally gave the wrong answer in order to manipulate the situation. If the polls all came back as a definite "no", the Spanish Government might have risked a real referendum.

Now which country did that happen in recently wink


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Catalan Claims [Re: Excoriator] #1046604
29th Oct 2017 10:00am
29th Oct 2017 10:00am
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,733
wirral
E
Excoriator Offline OP
Forum Addict
Excoriator  Offline OP
Forum Addict
E
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,733
wirral
Well, a government doesn't HAVE to follow the result of a referendum.

Cameron's mistake was not to call a referendum, but to promise that the government would follow it's conclusion. We have a parliament to make decisions and get things done, not to run referendums and let the people decide. Had Madrid made it clear that the result was non-binding, I suspect the problem would simply have gone away.

Last edited by Excoriator; 29th Oct 2017 10:02am.
Re: Catalan Claims [Re: Excoriator] #1046611
29th Oct 2017 1:17pm
29th Oct 2017 1:17pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
Originally Posted by Excoriator
Well, a government doesn't HAVE to follow the result of a referendum.

Cameron's mistake was not to call a referendum, but to promise that the government would follow it's conclusion. We have a parliament to make decisions and get things done, not to run referendums and let the people decide. Had Madrid made it clear that the result was non-binding, I suspect the problem would simply have gone away.


You mean the UK Government doesn't have to follow the result of a referendum, this is because we don't have a proper bill of rights so a referendum has no legal status whatsoever.

Many other countries have binding referendums because they are further advanced in democracy than we are. We don't even have the power to de-select an MP never mind how rogue he has become - there is absolutely nothing to stop a candidate pretending to be with one party but voting with another party all the time once he takes his seat.

Spanish law may be different to ours, I believe they do have binding referendums?


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Catalan Claims [Re: diggingdeeper] #1046675
30th Oct 2017 10:02pm
30th Oct 2017 10:02pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
M
mgbsheep Offline
Newbeee
mgbsheep  Offline
Newbeee
M
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


You mean the UK Government doesn't have to follow the result of a referendum, this is because we don't have a proper bill of rights so a referendum has no legal status whatsoever.


Not quite. We could have had a binding referendum, it's perfectly possible, we had one a few years ago for the alternative vote system.

The key is how the "enabling act" is set up. The for AV referendum it was very specific in the act as to what would happen as a result of more votes being cast in favour of AV than against (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/1/part/1/chapter/2). Clearly defining the winning line and the prize. This was a binding referendum.

The EU referendum was not set up in this way but it could have been. Instead it became advisory or consultative, no winning line, no prize, just advice.

I'd love to point you to the same section of the EU referendum act but it's not there which makes it non-binding.. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents



Re: Catalan Claims [Re: diggingdeeper] #1046677
30th Oct 2017 10:08pm
30th Oct 2017 10:08pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
M
mgbsheep Offline
Newbeee
mgbsheep  Offline
Newbeee
M
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

Spanish law may be different to ours, I believe they do have binding referendums?


It is, the spanish constitution lays out the rules and as far as I understand it the catalans would need to get the rest of spain to agree to a referendum and then get a result across the whole of spain. So probably unlikely to get the result the catalan separatists want. (http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf)

As with most legal things there are elements of interpretation which can be argued either way... or how else would lawyers make money...


Re: Catalan Claims [Re: Excoriator] #1046679
30th Oct 2017 10:12pm
30th Oct 2017 10:12pm
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master
diggingdeeper  Offline

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,649
Birkenhead
We seem to be saying the roughly the same thing but not necessarily from the same angle.

The Government has the choice of what they do with referendums, the people have no say in it because we do not have a proper bill of rights.

While the Government can chose to have a binding referendum by an act of parliament, they also have the power to repeal.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Catalan Claims [Re: Excoriator] #1046683
30th Oct 2017 10:30pm
30th Oct 2017 10:30pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
M
mgbsheep Offline
Newbeee
mgbsheep  Offline
Newbeee
M
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 12
bromborough
ok. I can see that.

I'm not sure the government necessarily get to choose, they are only there at our whim and ultimately have to get anything through a vote which they don't necessarily win.

I'm not a fan of the whip system which means they can try to exert a lot of pressure on MPs to vote in line with their party when the MPs code of conduct specifically says that MPs should, with consideration for their constituents (which covers all of them not only those that voted for them or that are eligible to vote) should always act in the best interests of the country. (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmcode/1076/107602.htm#a3)

Nice exchanging views with you. I'm off to bed. Good night.


Moderated by  Mod 

Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Leisure Centres Re-Open - or NOT
by diggingdeeper. 27th Oct 2020 9:59pm
View Ranger
by mikeeb. 25th Oct 2020 12:26pm
Coastal Foraging??
by shenniko. 24th Oct 2020 1:32pm
Wirral Way grids
by mikeeb. 24th Oct 2020 10:11am
Scratch repairs
by mikeeb. 23rd Oct 2020 12:29pm
For Sale & Free
Women's Size 4 Puma Suede Trainers
by Julie64. 26th Oct 2020 1:26pm
Mountain bike forks
by karl1972. 26th Oct 2020 7:40am
Angle grinder
by madrob. 23rd Oct 2020 6:34pm
Building survey.
by Fidelio. 19th Oct 2020 3:00pm
WANTED...used garden roller
by spider. 15th Oct 2020 3:26am
Member Spotlight
_Ste_
_Ste_
New Brighton
Posts: 16,248
Joined: August 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
juneserridge, PhilP, andrewm5901, Gilly77, LeeGrace
13534 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Coastal Foraging??
by shenniko. 24th Oct 2020 1:32pm
Drone help
by madrob. 18th Oct 2020 9:59am
UK's worst Street Birkenhead
by mikeeb. 17th Oct 2020 11:46am
TV prob
by lincle. 16th Oct 2020 11:10am
road tax
by lincle. 13th Oct 2020 7:31am
News : New Topics
Leisure Centres Re-Open - or NOT
by diggingdeeper. 27th Oct 2020 9:59pm
Council services
by Excoriator. 22nd Oct 2020 3:29pm
Boaty
by oldpm01. 21st Oct 2020 4:02pm
Wirral Crime August 2020
by diggingdeeper. 16th Oct 2020 5:19pm
Police activity - Storeton
by philmch. 15th Oct 2020 6:10pm
New Enthusiast Forums
View Ranger
by mikeeb. 25th Oct 2020 12:26pm
Scratch repairs
by mikeeb. 23rd Oct 2020 12:29pm
Horse riding on the common
by karl1972. 15th Oct 2020 2:08pm
'Over Exposed' Boeing Superfortress crash site
by KevinFinity. 10th Oct 2020 9:19pm
Blitz: The bombs that changed Britain
by mikeeb. 30th Sep 2020 4:02pm
Popular Topics(Views 24hrs)
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Wed 7:05am
Sunset Wed 4:46pm
Local Time Wed 1:31am
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1