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#1044814 - 30th Sep 2017 1:14pm The Repeal Bill for Brexit ***
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14869
Loc: Wirral


Tell your local MP not to block Brexit.

https://changebritain.org/email-mp/?__f=23842652962790745
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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#1044848 - 30th Sep 2017 4:52pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 1107
Loc: wirral
Too late sorry, Granny. I've already written to her, urging her to her to do all in her power to keep us in the EU. Wouldn't want to confuse her.

There seems to be a rising movement to abandon brexit. The last poll I saw had 52% remain to 48% leave. The British people have spoken, but what they've said is "Er... well I'm not really sure..." Fortunately, we seem to have a government which is incapable of managing it anyway. Increasingly, I wonder whether our PM - a one-time remainer - deliberately appointed a palpable idiot (Davis) to the job confident in his ability to cock it up completely! This is a well-known strategy. I think it's mentioned in Sun Tzu's "Art of War"

Whatever the reason, the leave negotiations seem to be going very badly indeed.

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#1044849 - 30th Sep 2017 5:10pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: Excoriator]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14869
Loc: Wirral

Well we all known about 'polls', hardly the time and motion worth speaking about.

If Brexit should be overturned, then I for one will never vote again, the same would probably apply to many. Womens' vote was hard come by, and to take that and any other vote as insignificance to democracy,just shows the way this country is going.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#1044850 - 30th Sep 2017 5:46pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
philmch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 27th Dec 2007
Posts: 337
Loc: Wirral
I don't know why the hell it is taking us so long. The referendum was over a year ago. We should've given them 30 days notice and left. All this messing about is just costing us more.

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#1044851 - 30th Sep 2017 5:47pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
snowhite Offline

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Registered: 31st Jan 2014
Posts: 6243
Loc: Wirral
Can you imagine what will happen if Brexit is overturned. All hell will break loose The Uk should just walk away from the EU.

Those who did vote to leave should make it more public.
I never did trust this Teresa May.

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#1044853 - 30th Sep 2017 6:40pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: philmch]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10689
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: philmch
I don't know why the hell it is taking us so long. The referendum was over a year ago. We should've given them 30 days notice and left. All this messing about is just costing us more.


A sudden leave is impossible for two reasons, firstly the default leave notice is 2 years unless both parties agree otherwise and secondly everything would come to a halt, no air road or rail traffic between us and Europe (shipping may have world agreements?), no goods or people crossing borders, no financial transactions between us and numerous other things. Everything that passes between borders is done by agreement, without agreement nothing passes.

The amount of detail (most of which is necessary) is unbelievable, additionally trade agreements have always had non-trade political clauses in them, this can be anything from the minimum and maximum age of chickens to the use of chemicals or subsidies.

Take something like passports, things like the age children travel under their parents passport, how old a passport photograph is allowed to be, what information the passport contains, the mechanism and bodies to contact to check a passport, who ends up with the person if the passport is false, who pays for transporting a person found with a false passport the format of electronic transfer of information relating to passports etc etc. You have a one-shot chance to the final agreement, get it wrong and it won't function the way you thought it should.

The main problem at the moment is that the UK is in a dominant position and the EU are trying to use their power to make it a more level playing field. The UK is in a position to swap some of that dominance for good deal (for the UK) but the EU wants to totally obliterate that dominance in exchange for nothing (of course - wouldn't you?). Its a political war, its not going to be easy, because of our dominance we will have to give some of it away but we obviously don't believe in giving freebies.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044863 - 30th Sep 2017 10:52pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 1107
Loc: wirral
Quote:
If Brexit should be overturned, then I for one will never vote again...


Careful Granny. Some might see that as an additional incentive to overturn it.

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#1044864 - 30th Sep 2017 11:10pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 1107
Loc: wirral
It would be quite easy to abandon the whole leave procedure. All you have to do is apologise to the EU, and repeal the repeal bill and business goes on as usual.

It's a lot easier than leaving.

The point is that the 27 have defined two clear stages in the brexit procedure. First, the divorce settlement - things like what to do about the Border with Eire, brits in the EU and EU citizens in the UK and any money owed etc. and then and only then will any trade agreements be made. They have repeated this countless times, but our government seems not to understand it, keeping on proposing transition periods, not proposing any solution to the Border problem, and making vague partial statements about citizenship. In other words, they are not even trying to follow the rules and are too stupid to realise that they have no choice in the matter.

At the moment, Brexit is far from their minds. They are all far too busy plotting who will take over from Theresa!

What worries me is that a government as bloody stupid as this one is hardly likely to be able to negotiate any beneficial (to us) agreement with ANY country.

What I would like to see is the Labour party coming out and saying "Enough! We will oppose any brexit legislation and when reelected will abandon the whole leave procedure!"

Better that than no deal and we're out with nothing!

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#1044865 - 30th Sep 2017 11:30pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: Excoriator]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 14869
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: Excoriator
Quote:
If Brexit should be overturned, then I for one will never vote again...


Careful Granny. Some might see that as an additional incentive to overturn it.


raftl raftl raftl You are so funny, Ex.
_________________________
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle

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#1044868 - 30th Sep 2017 11:53pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: Excoriator]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10689
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: Excoriator
The point is that the 27 have defined two clear stages in the brexit procedure. First, the divorce settlement - things like what to do about the Border with Eire, brits in the EU and EU citizens in the UK and any money owed etc. and then and only then will any trade agreements be made. They have repeated this countless times, but our government seems not to understand it.


Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations, how can you negotiate when the matter you negotiate about isn't allowed on the table during the negotiations.

Its like asking someone to play poker blindfold.

Negotiation is about concessions, the EU are offering no concessions, the UK aren't allowed to use their concessions, how can it be possible to negotiate.

There is nothing in EU rules that says they are allowed to make this edict, they are making it up as they go along.

This is nothing new in the EU's attitude, the whole council is designed around bypassing democracy and that is the reason we are better out.

When I say the EU I mean the United States of Germany of course, they are unquestionably the dominant power in something that is supposed to be an equal community.

The stupidest thing we ever did was give away our veto, what is more hilarious was we got nothing in exchange. Not only that, the agreed democratic procedure to see if the veto powers should be given away were side-stepped when the EU leaders realised the vote wasn't going to go their way.

Either you believe in democracy or you believe in the EU, the two are mutually exclusive.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044872 - 1st Oct 2017 9:28am Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
j_demo Offline
Forum Addict

Registered: 4th Nov 2011
Posts: 1889
Loc: Wallasey/New Brighton
I was against Brexit, i voted to remain.

However the people have spoken and a decision has been made. I have made peace with that. If Brexit was reversed then 52% of the country that voted for it would be saying "hang on a minute"

I'm actually sick of the rhetoric surrounding it now, just get the wheels in motion now.

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#1044874 - 1st Oct 2017 10:51am Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 1107
Loc: wirral
Quote:
Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations...


Not at all. They want to ensure that things like the status of their and our people in each other's countries is settled, and proposals for the border with Eire sorted out, and agreement reached about payment for anything we owe first. Trade agreements are nothing to do with any of this.

I see nothing obstructive about separating these issues. None of them is related to trading agreements. It is Davis' inability (or refusal) to separate the two that is holding things up.

It is worth remembering that in two years, the EU will lose interest in the UK completely, and will lose very little if we leave with nothing settled. Unfortunately, we will come off very badly if that happens.

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#1044875 - 1st Oct 2017 12:18pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Davefabo Offline
Member

Registered: 20th Dec 2011
Posts: 52
Loc: Barnston
What few people realise when talking about the EU is they should really be calling it the EP, the European project. If you read the 5 Presidents report (these are the 5 presidents of the 5 big EU institutions) which was published in 2016, or listen to the latest speech of Juncker, you will find out that the intention of the EU is to have more and more control. Juncker stated in his speech for example that 'every' country in the EU would eventually have to join the Euro. He also said that an EU Army should be formed.
remainers say we are launching ourselves into the unknown when we Brexit, presumably the same 'unknown; that countries like Canada and Australia live with every day.
What remainers cant tell me, and ive asked quite a few of them, is what will the EU be like in 10 years?.

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#1044881 - 1st Oct 2017 12:36pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: Excoriator]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 10689
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: Excoriator
Quote:
Precisely, the EU is intentionally blocking negotiations...


Not at all. They want to ensure that things like the status of their and our people in each other's countries is settled, and proposals for the border with Eire sorted out, and agreement reached about payment for anything we owe first. Trade agreements are nothing to do with any of this.


Trade is explicitly linked to the three freedoms by the EU.

You will notice the EU are not making any proposals (other than demanding a random amount of money in exchange for nothing), just rejecting ours.

The amount we pay is explicitly linked to the final agreement, the EU are basically saying that if and when we agree to pay £90bn then we will start talking about the final agreement.

The EU know the only solution is a tariff free agreement between the EU and the UK, this actually benefits them more than us yet they expect us to pay compensation as well?
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044892 - 1st Oct 2017 3:22pm Re: The Repeal Bill for Brexit [Re: granny]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 1107
Loc: wirral
The EU is not compelled to make ANY sort of a trade deal with us. It is a matter for the two sides after the departure of the UK

The EU is not demanding 'random' sums from us. It is simply asking for promised or committed money. This has nothing to do with trade deals either.

You seem to have missed the point about 'this will hurt them more than us' too. Even if it were true - which I doubt - the effect on individual countries is one twenty-seventh of the effect it is on us. In other words, even if it costs them more, they can afford it much more easily because they are a great deal richer than us.

This is the reality of the situation. I find it incredible that our piss-poor government cannot understand this and continues to lecture, abuse, and insult the EU, and proposing 'transition periods' - again which can only happen with the agreement of the EU - as if they will simply fall into line.

I watch with incredulity as this slow motion car crash proceeds.

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