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Borstal query #1034387
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
5th Apr 2017 1:10pm
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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I am researching family History and have come across some information but don't know where to go next.

If someone lived in Wallasey, was born in 1910, and went to Borstal as a youth, what Borstal would that be? What age would the said Borstal accept? And are there any records available I am wondering.

What conditions would they encounter and would they be allowed home at all or just had to stay and serve their time?

Thanks very much for any insight offered.







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Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034389
5th Apr 2017 1:30pm
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granny Offline
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Would this throw any light on the subject.

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/Heswall/


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Borstal query [Re: granny] #1034391
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
5th Apr 2017 1:44pm
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bert1 Offline

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Last edited by bert1; 5th Apr 2017 1:45pm.

God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034400
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
5th Apr 2017 4:24pm
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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Thanks so much granny and bert1 - great links! I have the person on the 1911 at home, being born in 1910. Just trying to bridge the gap between 1911 and the 1939 register.

The Heswall home is very interesting as what I have read ties in with what I do know and it makes sense to me, if this is the home they went to. Disturbing to read of the abuse though - I know it was different times but it is still disturbing to read and to know that my relative may have been on the receiving end.

I shall read it all with interest! Thanks again.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034401
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
5th Apr 2017 4:29pm
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diggingdeeper Offline

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There were proper Borstal's run by the prison service from 1902 until 1982 with the main legislation occurring in 1908, these were separate from reformatory schools etc.

Two wings of Walton Prison in Liverpool were allocated as a male Corrective Institution for juveniles but I don't know from what date.

Cheshire didn't seem to have a Borstal. the nearest ones seem to be Manchester, Rochdale(Buckley Hall) and Stoke-on-Trent(Moor Court).


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034427
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
6th Apr 2017 6:31am
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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Thanks diggingdeeper! I didn't think that Wirral would have one and that the offenders would be sent away to somewhere much further away. Without any concrete evidence I can only guess as to which institution was used.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034514
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
6th Apr 2017 10:04pm
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futurepast Offline
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I read a book many years ago, based on a true story, the book was called borstal boy wrote by a very famous Irish writer and poet called Brendan beehan, it tells of Brendan trying to blow up Cammell lairds during the second world war, Behan was lodging I think in Rock ferry at the time having not long landed on a ferry from Dublin. he ended up in Walton prison as a 15 or 16 year old, he was given a borstal sentence which was any where between 9 months to 3 years depending on each prisoners relevant behaviour, if your face didn't fit you was serving the 3 years, Walton prison I think was used to hold remand prisoners and then allocate them to other Borstals around the country, I remember him writing they had to sew mail bags by hand as a job when he was in Walton prison. Borstal was a punishment given by the courts for young criminals that where not suitable to enter service on the navy training ships, Borstal started in 1902 and ended on 24th May 1983 and was replaced with a new system called youth custody. Nearest borstal to the Wirral I could find would be Hindley borstal near Wigan and Stoke heath borstal near market drayton, Borstals where based on hard work,strict diets,loads of exercise and Sunday church.

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034516
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
6th Apr 2017 10:20pm
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diggingdeeper Offline

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Hindley Borstal wasn't opened until 1961 and Stoke Heath 1966.

Of the three I mentioned, Buckley Hall wasn't opened until after WW2 and I'm struggling to find details for Moor Court. So the only probable Borstal is possibly Manchester, now known as Strangeways.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034565
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
7th Apr 2017 4:28pm
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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Thanks very much futurepast and digging deeper. Your explanations are very welcome and are helping to narrow down the possibilities. The person concerned spent many years as either a dock worker or in the merchant navy - so I am leaning towards the navy training ships, but then again , if the dates fit, there is the option of Strangeways. I am estimating that they would have spent time in borstal up to age 18 and therefore up to 1928, maximum, as the year they were there.

All very interesting and plenty to learn, thanks to all your replies!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034640
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
8th Apr 2017 9:32am
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Regarding The Akbar Nautical School, My father ended up here after running away from a similar school down south, he was a Londoner himself. He stayed until he was 15 years old and then sent away to sea. He never had a good word to say about the place, he'd only say that they were right b@rst@ds. Also before it was built they had ship on the Mersey that served as the same purpose, it was also called the Akbar. Good luck in your search.

Re: Borstal query [Re: paulaharry] #1034664
8th Apr 2017 12:10pm
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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Very interesting paulaharry, thanks very much for your input. The Akbar ship was scrapped in 1907 and then it seems, if I am correct, that it was put on the land, in dry dock, of the nautical training school in Heswall. Reading that your father was there and then sent away to sea, makes me think that the same circumstances occurred for my ancestor, in that he had no choice! I had thought that it was a choice that he was in the merchant navy and a dock labourer, but if he had been sent to Borstal and therefore trained, it now seems natural that the training would then have been used, and they were sent away to sea. The conditions seem to be so harsh, some would say it was deserved, but reading about it now makes uncomfortable reading. Your father has first hand experience and being sent so far away from his home, it would have made the experience much harder.

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!

Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034711
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
8th Apr 2017 6:49pm
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diggingdeeper Offline

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I don't think the Akbar reformatory ship was moved, it was basically falling apart taking on a ton of water every 24 hours and its mast could no longer be rigged. The "school" was moved to temporary accommodation while the large training establishment was built in Heswall.

The new accommodation contained HMS Moonshine which was a hollow concrete replica of a steam ship.

The old ship was towed away to the breakers yard on the 2nd December 1907 the new accommodation being opened in 1909. I believe the temporary accommodation was also in Heswall but I have no details.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the s--- hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034744
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
9th Apr 2017 6:43am
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geprgie260 Offline OP
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Thanks very much digging deeper - your explanation means I understand it better now! I got confused over the ship and where it actually went.

Would the accommodation, temporary and permanent, be secure, do you think? Would the residents be locked in and not allowed out?


Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034745
9th Apr 2017 7:09am
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bert1 Offline

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God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
Re: Borstal query [Re: geprgie260] #1034746
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
9th Apr 2017 7:30am
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bert1 Offline

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Originally Posted by geprgie260

It would be fantastic if there were any records held, so my search goes on!


Any records held are likely to be at Lancashire Archives, Preston.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/9f51918a-d514-4693-9f0c-c7d01749b5a9


God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.
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