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Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #955037
15th Jul 2015 9:14am
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I agree, I've got a chinese one and its a nightmare to use. Every-time you stop and start recording it opens a new file (ie no pause facility), every button is multifunctional, some things you have to go through the menu, the screen uses a lot of indeterminate symbols which makes translating proto-Elamite tablets look easy etc etc.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

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Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: chriskay] #955038
15th Jul 2015 9:25am
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That's a good idea, Chris. Will have a search later as there is still a day left on that one.

If you have your book 'Tingvelle' handy, you might like to see the map of field names.

If you look for 'Thing Well'. That is on the land of Thingwall Farm and where he said there was a 'well' x 2 . This is also of interest in relation to the old name of 'Tingvelle',
as 'velle' on it's own from Latin, means 'wish, want, be willing'.
Do you see what I'm getting at ? Maybe this is the origin of how the name 'Wishing Well' came to be ? (not necessarily from Thingwall, before someone reads things differently)

Just as a matter of interest, what's left of Thingwall Farm is a heap of rubble buried under a mass of wild growth.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1074963
26th Feb 2020 9:30pm
26th Feb 2020 9:30pm
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Back her again, after 5 yrs. Blimey , doesn't time fly ? Some of this I may have posted before , but this might be easier to follow.



The Celts came across Europe from Greece and other places and inhabited Wales.

Llan is Celtic .

Brittonic was the ancient Celtic language spoken by Brittons.

The word Llan is a Gaelic word meaning ' wood'


The word 'Dican' originates in Egypt and referred to 36 groups of stars and used in Ancient Egyptian Astronomy. Dicans were used until after the Renaissance in connection with astrology and magic. .

In Greece they used the word for sidereal star clock beginning by at least the 9th or 10th Dynasty (c. 2100 BCE).

Sardican was in Greece and the Sar - Dican was a name meaning "servant", "waiting-man", "minister", or "messenger" and later Sar- Dican Cannons



The Romans arrived and stayed for about 400 yrs,

The Anglo Saxons arrived in the 4th century but the Romans beat them back. The Romans left in the 5th century, and more Anglo Saxons came to Britain.

The Anglo Saxons were not Christian , they were pagan, but there had been many Christians in Roman Britain.

The Anglo Saxons did not settle in Wales and the Christians there continued their own religion .

Over time the Anglo Saxons converted to Christianity.

The Vikings first invaded in 793 AD.


So..... firstly, I think 'Cross Hill' , Thingwall was in use as a religious meeting place before the Vikings arrived, as the Saxons didn't necessarily have buildings for meetings, they were in the open as Jesus had done .

The Christians came out of Wales

I believe 'Landican' came from the Welsh /Gaelic language for a deacon or magic man in the wood as you will see from the map that the Brittonic speaking community extended out of Wales as far as Cumbria.

The connection of Dican, ( Astrology ) to the Church would have come from the bible, as astrology was paramount, and the Jews had arrived in Canaan from Egypt after living in Egypt for 400 yrs. so no doubt , they too were mostly following paganism at the time . Hence the beginning of the teachings of morals and ethics as given by Moses to gather the people together .

Many people believe the good book is related to magic and astronomy with all it's so called mysteries and codes . Trouble is, even the greatest of brains can't figure it out !

Llan-Dican Magician in the wood .. or Deacon in the Wood which has come from Wales and the Brittanic language via the Celts and traditions relating back to Greece, Egypt and astronomy .


Will that do ?

The Brittonic-speaking community around the sixth century.




Last edited by granny; 26th Feb 2020 9:33pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1074965
26th Feb 2020 9:36pm
26th Feb 2020 9:36pm
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Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1074988
28th Feb 2020 2:16pm
28th Feb 2020 2:16pm
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Above I mentioned that in Gaelic 'Llan ' meant 'wood, however according to The Doomesday Book, Llan in Celtic as a 'place name' meant 'church'

Celtic Terms: 800BC - 400 AD


Aber: River mouth or ford
Afon: River
Allt: Hillside
Avon; Esk; Eye; Dee: River
Bedd: Grave
Bre-; Drum; Don: Hill
Caer: Fortress
Capel: Chapel
Carnedd: Cairn
Castell: Castle
Coed: Wood
Cwm: Valley
Dinas: City
Glan: River Bank
Hamps: Dry stream in Summer
Llan: Church
Llyn: Lake
Mawr: Big
Môr: Sea
Mynydd: Mountain
Os: God
Pant: Hollow
Pen; Bryn: Hill; Head
Plas: Palace
Pont; Bont: Bridge
Porth: Harbour
Tre: Hamlet; Village; Town
Treath: Beach
Ynys: Island

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/places.html


Last edited by granny; 28th Feb 2020 2:20pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1074991
28th Feb 2020 2:44pm
28th Feb 2020 2:44pm
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Going back to the early 1800's there are various registers relating to Thomas Wilson from Llandican in Cheshire. So the name must have changed from 2 x L's to 1 x L at some point.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1074997
28th Feb 2020 10:55pm
28th Feb 2020 10:55pm
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It is generally though that Woodchurch was part of Landican and Landican Church was at Woodchurch.

Woodchurch wasn't part of the Wirral Hundred but Landican was.

Woodchurch wasn't in the Doomsday book, Landican was.

Going back to 17th century maps Landican only had one L but undoubtedly when Wirral was run by the druids it had two Ls.

There have been a number of spellings over time including Landechene as it was at the time of the Doomsday book.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075000
29th Feb 2020 12:00am
29th Feb 2020 12:00am
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Landechene at the time of the Doomsday book, was more than likely attributed to the French or Norman . It is said that although Landechene was named in the Doomsday Book, implying oaken church, it is thought the name originally derived from the Welsh.. Llan-diacon 'church of the deacon' .

I would have thought that Landican would have been a more likely setting for such, a ) being nearer to a river or brook, b) linking up to all the ancient pathways through Thingwall going to Storeton and beyond down to Bebington . (which it has been said was the route the Vikings took when coming up to Cross Hill for their Assembly )

Why it might be there in the first place is a big question mark but Landican was classed as a township. A township is a small village with a church so water (river) was of importance .

I can't see that the Anglo-Saxons would give it such a name, or even a church, although one of the earliest crosses recently discovered dates to the 650-680 AD. (link)
One of the Popes (link) sent Augustin to England in 597 AD to convert the pagan Anglo-Saxon Kings.

The Trumpington Cross

https://www.cam.ac.uk/trumpingtoncross

I am more than ever convinced that 'Cross Hill' was much older by name than when a) the Saxons arrived and b) the Vikings arrived..... but you don't have to agree. smile


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075001
29th Feb 2020 12:23am
29th Feb 2020 12:23am
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A township is defined by having had a town council or a parish council acting as a town council, it was a devolvement of powers (usually tax based) from either the County Council (Shire) or the Parish Council. A township does not have to have had a church, it was invariably part of a larger Parish.



The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075008
29th Feb 2020 11:21am
29th Feb 2020 11:21am
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Township came from =ville. (Latin) and has changed it meaning over the millennia , also it meant different things in different countries.

I' m not sure that at the time of the Doomsday Book was compiled or before, there were any Town Councils or Parish Councils ! I could be wrong.
However, if there was a church at that time , there would almost certainly have been the beginnings of some sort of control or dominance over the people.

Cross Hill of which there are many, not necessarily named Cross Hill but many hills with crosses on, as one would expect the followers of Christianity would have paid homage and were often sites for pilgrimages.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...BfMQsAR6BAgLEAE&biw=1080&bih=508

'Ter Hill Cross' is quite famous for depicting an ancient monastic route, and including Mount Misery Cross. (the clue is in the name ! )

Churches and Monasteries and other places of Christian religion have long been built on hills.

It would be interesting to find the entry of Landechene in the Doomsday Book, but so far all I can find is that it was held by William Malbank.
Thingwall is also in the Doomsday Book , held by William Malbank.

The fact that Landican and Thingwall are so close with footpaths linking across the field, and much closer that Woodchurch I still have the opinion that Landican Village is where it was relating to.
Holy Cross at Woodchurch may have been a subsequent church after the Welsh (Brittonic speaking community) had gone.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075011
29th Feb 2020 1:45pm
29th Feb 2020 1:45pm
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I'll let you translate ....

Attached Files
12581-1.png (8 downloads)

The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075012
29th Feb 2020 1:58pm
29th Feb 2020 1:58pm
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Here you go, Woodchurch was part of the Manor of Landican https://www.holycrosswoodchurch.uk/history


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075047
1st Mar 2020 9:32pm
1st Mar 2020 9:32pm
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granny Offline OP
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Originally Posted by granny
Back her again, after 5 yrs. Blimey , doesn't time fly ? Some of this I may have posted before , but this might be easier to follow.



The Celts came across Europe from Greece and other places and inhabited Wales.

Llan is Celtic .

Brittonic was the ancient Celtic language spoken by Brittons.

The word Llan is a Gaelic word meaning ' wood'


The word 'Dican' originates in Egypt and referred to 36 groups of stars and used in Ancient Egyptian Astronomy. Dicans were used until after the Renaissance in connection with astrology and magic. .

In Greece they used the word for sidereal star clock beginning by at least the 9th or 10th Dynasty (c. 2100 BCE).

Sardican was in Greece and the Sar - Dican was a name meaning "servant", "waiting-man", "minister", or "messenger" and later Sar- Dican Cannons



The Romans arrived and stayed for about 400 yrs,

The Anglo Saxons arrived in the 4th century but the Romans beat them back. The Romans left in the 5th century, and more Anglo Saxons came to Britain.

The Anglo Saxons were not Christian , they were pagan, but there had been many Christians in Roman Britain.

The Anglo Saxons did not settle in Wales and the Christians there continued their own religion .

Over time the Anglo Saxons converted to Christianity.

The Vikings first invaded in 793 AD.


So..... firstly, I think 'Cross Hill' , Thingwall was in use as a religious meeting place before the Vikings arrived, as the Saxons didn't necessarily have buildings for meetings, they were in the open as Jesus had done .

The Christians came out of Wales

I believe 'Landican' came from the Welsh /Gaelic language for a deacon or magic man in the wood as you will see from the map that the Brittonic speaking community extended out of Wales as far as Cumbria.

The connection of Dican, ( Astrology ) to the Church would have come from the bible, as astrology was paramount, and the Jews had arrived in Canaan from Egypt after living in Egypt for 400 yrs. so no doubt , they too were mostly following paganism at the time . Hence the beginning of the teachings of morals and ethics as given by Moses to gather the people together .

Many people believe the good book is related to magic and astronomy with all it's so called mysteries and codes . Trouble is, even the greatest of brains can't figure it out !

Llan-Dican Magician in the wood .. or Deacon in the Wood which has come from Wales and the Brittanic language via the Celts and traditions relating back to Greece, Egypt and astronomy .


Will that do ?

The Brittonic-speaking community around the sixth century.





Well I can go along with the fact that Woodchurch could have been a Druid burial place, but Druids were not generally Christians.

Who were the Druids (magic men !)
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/Druids/


It says in the link that Woodchurch formed a 'part' of the Manor of Landican in 1086 . Woodchurch was recorded as Wude Church in 1093

The translation of the Doomsday entry for Landican is as follows :

Landican.
Aescwulf held it; he was a free man. 7 hides paying tax.Land for 8 ploughs.In lordship 1; a priest , 9 villagers , 7 smallholders and 4 Frenchmen with 5 ploughs between them.
Value before 1066 50s ; now 40s; found waste.

Thingwall
Durand holds from him (William Malbank) Winterlet held it ; he was a free man . 1 hide paying tax . Land for 2 ploughs. In lordship 1; 2 slaves

The largest of Wirral settlements was in order :
1)eastham was largest settlement
2)upton
3)saughall
4)landican

Now the interesting bit. Landican was obviously quite important and it has been recorded that ' Landican like Thingwall was a well watered village. There were 2 wells and 2 springs.' !

That to me indicates that Landican then was where Landican village is today. Churches would have a well or be near a spring near, and communities needed them too. Sacred springs were part of the Christian rituals .
Woodchurch, in my opinion, was possibly as stated a Druid burial place, however, from what I can make out, a) the Romans tried to get rid of the Druid's and their pagan rituals such as sacrifice, and b)the Britons did not get along with the Druids.

The last point is; if Landcian was the original hamlet/settlement with a Christian Priest , bordering Thingwall, being the highest point for Cross Hill, it makes sense . Also, why would the Vikings make their way to Cross Hill if it wasn't of any importance ?

I have probably missed loads of different points out on this, but don't want to confuse the issue more than necessary. Hahaha !
Oh yes, William the Conqueror invaded Wales , raided forests for oak trees and wood in general, chased out the pagans and I wonder if it was the Doomsday survey completed in parts of England and Wales by 1086, has seen Norman influence and Woodchurch made into a church later but before 1093 . It clearly says the Doomsday survey on Landican and Thingwall in land value was in 1066 and at the time of the survey the price had dropped.

Last edited by granny; 1st Mar 2020 9:40pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075049
1st Mar 2020 11:26pm
1st Mar 2020 11:26pm
Joined: Mar 2010
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Heswallish
F
fish5133 Online content
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Not looked at levels on an old os but was there a Hill there. The cross hill reservoir slopes look man made. only a slight incline in the road to Barnston.

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall [Re: granny] #1075050
2nd Mar 2020 12:18am
2nd Mar 2020 12:18am
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Arrowe brook starts in Landican and passes through Woodchurch on its way to the Birket. In the past there were a number of tributaries roughly heading towards (from?) Holy Cross. If you go into the Woodland directly in front of the Hospital you can find traces of a brooklet there, the same for the Woodland in front of the large car park on the left of the Hospital.

There was no shortage of water around Woodchurch however much of the water flow was altered in the early 19th century when Arrowe Hall was built and the surrounding land (now Arrowe Park) was extensively landscaped especially as they were looking for water for the lake, fountains and waterfalls.

The Fender also originates in Landican via Prenton Brook.

What would be interesting to know, is where was Arrowe Village? Probably the top or bottom of Arrowe Brook Road? It is interesting to note that Arrowe Hill has moved to half-way down the north side of Arrowe Brook Road, it used to be on the other side of Arrowe Park Road. Arrowe Village would give us a better idea of the extent of Landican.


The further you are down the pay scale, the more 'essential' you are when the shit hits the fan... Sue Farbysmith 2020

Insults are engendered from vulgar minds, like toadstools from a dunghill - Charles Caleb Colton

We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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