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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: diggingdeeper]
#1044499
22nd Sep 2017 12:32pm
22nd Sep 2017 12:32pm
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,044 Heswallish
fish5133
Forum Guardian
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Forum Guardian
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,044
Heswallish
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what a shame...my heart bleeds for them..
wonder if the stabbing in Wallasey was linked?
Last edited by fish5133; 22nd Sep 2017 12:34pm.
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: Excoriator]
#1044510
22nd Sep 2017 4:34pm
22nd Sep 2017 4:34pm
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,120 Birkenhead
diggingdeeper
OP

Wiki Master
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OP

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,120
Birkenhead
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High time we abandoned these ineffective restrictive laws and tried the Swiss approach. It may be cheaper and more humane and cuts down on policing, but at least it works! The same system we have been using for nearly 100 years - didn't work very well did it? Its certainly not achieved anything in Switzerland either. Perhaps when they start looking at the cost to the community and not the cost to Government they will come up with a scheme that actually achieves something. Removing a crime from the lawbooks doesn't solve crime problems.
We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: diggingdeeper]
#1044515
22nd Sep 2017 5:38pm
22nd Sep 2017 5:38pm
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,362 wallasey
casper
Forum Master
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Forum Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,362
wallasey
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High time we abandoned these ineffective restrictive laws and tried the Swiss approach. It may be cheaper and more humane and cuts down on policing, but at least it works! The same system we have been using for nearly 100 years - didn't work very well did it? Its certainly not achieved anything in Switzerland either. Perhaps when they start looking at the cost to the community and not the cost to Government they will come up with a scheme that actually achieves something. Removing a crime from the lawbooks doesn't solve crime problems. Quite true DD, however it removes the statistics for that particular offence, look at the all encompassing ASBO, how many crimes does that title hide? all neatly packaged in one box, hey ho crime figures reduced all is well.
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: diggingdeeper]
#1044518
22nd Sep 2017 7:28pm
22nd Sep 2017 7:28pm
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,797 wirral
Excoriator
Forum Addict
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Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,797
wirral
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Not very strong on History are we on this topic. In fact, up to the late 1950s or early 1960s, there were no legal problems with doctors prescribing heroin on the NHS. The result was NO pushers and the number of addicts was tiny. Many of them - as is the case in Switzerland where free drugs are prescribed, and 'shooting galleries' provided - were able to maintain jobs and families. Criminalising possession of drugs was tantamount to putting up a sign inviting criminals to make a fortune by supplying it, criminalising the existing addicts, and generating an enormous crime wave as the addicts attempted to supply themselves with the stuff. It also ushered in deaths and disease from sharing needles and encouraged peddlers to hand out free samples to children in order to generate new sales opportunities. Across the world, vast sums have been spent on trying to restrict supplies and it has been, uniformly, an utter disaster. Why our government aped the Americans in criminalising it I shall never fully understand. However, slowly views are changing. You even get prominent policemen advocating decriminalisation now as well as a few courageous politicians. Unfortunately, we still have a press that rejoices in promoting a vengeful campaign against addicts based on a mean-spirited attitude of 'they deserve to suffer' and 'why should we pay for their drugs'. This appeals very strongly to the plain thick. It will take time for wiser counsels to prevail, but at least there is now movement.
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: Excoriator]
#1044520
22nd Sep 2017 8:21pm
22nd Sep 2017 8:21pm
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,120 Birkenhead
diggingdeeper
OP

Wiki Master
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OP

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Posts: 14,120
Birkenhead
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Not very strong on history are we on this topic. In fact, up to the late 1950s or early 1960s, there were no legal problems with doctors prescribing heroin on the NHS. Britain still has that service, in fact Switzerland copied our mistakes as did other countries like Holland who found out how disastrous it was and are still recovering from the problems it caused. Before it was related to Switzerland it was known as "The British System" by most of the world. Switzerland, like ourselves have not decriminalised possession of drugs, they had a short spell of attempting this in a specific location and it was a disaster that became known as "needle park" and had to be shut down. Needle handouts and exchange systems have been in force for many years, addiction treatment likewise. It hasn't worked, at some point you need to protect society from the effects of drugs. A huge amount of crime and ASB is drug related, probably above 80%, its time a bottomless pit was created to remove this problem. The number of Swiss males prosecuted for narcotics has gone up since the 1990s, that doesn't sound like a successful program especially if it has supposedly been "decriminalised". If you want to know how drugs became rampant so quickly in the UK you need to look at Thatcher's plan for Liverpool that was assisted by America, the idea of helping Liverpool implode went hugely wrong as the drug problem soon spread across the rest of the country. How is your History and current knowledge on the subject?
We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: diggingdeeper]
#1044521
22nd Sep 2017 9:33pm
22nd Sep 2017 9:33pm
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,797 wirral
Excoriator
Forum Addict
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Forum Addict
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Posts: 1,797
wirral
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1. British doctors cannot prescribe heroin. 2. Needle exchanges were opposed for ages, particularly in Edinburgh (we don't want to encourage addicts!) leading to a massive AIDS problem there until people wised up. 3. As drugs were only decriminalised in Switzerland in 2013, I am not at all surprised to find a massive increase in in convictions since the 1990s. (Not that 'convictions' is a very good measure of the number of addicts) 4. Possession of drugs was made a criminal offence in 1964 by the UK government under pressure from the USA, who evidently had learned nothing from their attempt to prohibit alcohol. 5. Switzerland's current policy is for addicts to receive free drugs, provided for them by the state in centres (shooting galleries). The idea was to remove the chaos from their lives allowing them to rejoin society. Many have managed to do this. It was piloted in Zurich and later adopted nationwide, although the vast majority of addicts are in Zurich. It is still illegal to sell drugs, but there ARE no sellers as addicts receive the drugs free. (They are not expensive, by the way.) My History and knowledge of the subject are excellent thank you.
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Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests
[Re: diggingdeeper]
#1044526
22nd Sep 2017 11:45pm
22nd Sep 2017 11:45pm
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,120 Birkenhead
diggingdeeper
OP

Wiki Master
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OP

Wiki Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 14,120
Birkenhead
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British doctors can and do prescribe heroin. GPs require special approval however there are clinics which are authorised. Heroin is even supplied for home use, not just administered within clinics.
Switzerland narcotics possession:-
2011 4,710 2012 5,734 2013 6,087 2014 6,314 2015 6,545
The figures have gone up even after 2013!
Switzerland heroin seizures:-
2010 259.9kg 2012 162kg 2014 267kg
Switzerland cannabis seizures:-
2010 2,069kg 2012 2,170kg 2014 3,434kg
That is a lot of seizures for somewhere that has decriminalisation and has "no sellers".
It is not working, it wasn't the Rolleston report that controlled Britain's drug problems for over 40 years it was the availability, social and economic factors that controlled them.
Any system that increases the number of addicts cannot be called a success, its a dismal failure. The greater majority of parents do not want the opportunity for their kids to obtain drugs, you are not killing the market by treating addicts, you are still creating a market of non-addicts who will become addicts.
Another bit of strange information is that GP's only register about 50% of their addicts, there is no obligation for them to do so.
We don't do charity in Germany, We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
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