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#1044498 - 22nd Sep 2017 12:49pm Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests ***
diggingdeeper Offline

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A total of 12 people were arrested in dawn raids across Wirral as part of an 18-month investigation into organised crime and drug supply.

SOURCE
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#1044499 - 22nd Sep 2017 1:32pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
fish5133 Online   content
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what a shame...my heart bleeds for them..

wonder if the stabbing in Wallasey was linked?


Edited by fish5133 (22nd Sep 2017 1:34pm)

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#1044507 - 22nd Sep 2017 4:57pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
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Unfortunately, a crackdown on drugs means an increase in their price, which will be followed by a rise in crime as addicts seek more funds.

High time we abandoned these ineffective restrictive laws and tried the Swiss approach. It may be cheaper and more humane and cuts down on policing, but at least it works!

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#1044508 - 22nd Sep 2017 5:32pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: Excoriator]
starakita Online   content

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One of the raids was in our road
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#1044510 - 22nd Sep 2017 5:34pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: Excoriator]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Originally Posted By: Excoriator
High time we abandoned these ineffective restrictive laws and tried the Swiss approach. It may be cheaper and more humane and cuts down on policing, but at least it works!


The same system we have been using for nearly 100 years - didn't work very well did it? Its certainly not achieved anything in Switzerland either.

Perhaps when they start looking at the cost to the community and not the cost to Government they will come up with a scheme that actually achieves something.

Removing a crime from the lawbooks doesn't solve crime problems.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044515 - 22nd Sep 2017 6:38pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
casper Online   content
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Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
Originally Posted By: Excoriator
High time we abandoned these ineffective restrictive laws and tried the Swiss approach. It may be cheaper and more humane and cuts down on policing, but at least it works!


The same system we have been using for nearly 100 years - didn't work very well did it? Its certainly not achieved anything in Switzerland either.

Perhaps when they start looking at the cost to the community and not the cost to Government they will come up with a scheme that actually achieves something.

Removing a crime from the lawbooks doesn't solve crime problems.


Quite true DD, however it removes the statistics for that particular offence, look at the all encompassing ASBO, how many crimes does that title hide? all neatly packaged in one box, hey ho crime figures reduced all is well.

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#1044516 - 22nd Sep 2017 6:49pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: casper]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Originally Posted By: casper
....however it removes the statistics for that particular offence ....


In Switzerland its even more nefarious than that, the statistics for narcotics offences has plummeted for females but not so much for males!
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When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044518 - 22nd Sep 2017 8:28pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
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Not very strong on History are we on this topic. In fact, up to the late 1950s or early 1960s, there were no legal problems with doctors prescribing heroin on the NHS. The result was NO pushers and the number of addicts was tiny. Many of them - as is the case in Switzerland where free drugs are prescribed, and 'shooting galleries' provided - were able to maintain jobs and families.

Criminalising possession of drugs was tantamount to putting up a sign inviting criminals to make a fortune by supplying it, criminalising the existing addicts, and generating an enormous crime wave as the addicts attempted to supply themselves with the stuff. It also ushered in deaths and disease from sharing needles and encouraged peddlers to hand out free samples to children in order to generate new sales opportunities. Across the world, vast sums have been spent on trying to restrict supplies and it has been, uniformly, an utter disaster.

Why our government aped the Americans in criminalising it I shall never fully understand. However, slowly views are changing. You even get prominent policemen advocating decriminalisation now as well as a few courageous politicians.

Unfortunately, we still have a press that rejoices in promoting a vengeful campaign against addicts based on a mean-spirited attitude of 'they deserve to suffer' and 'why should we pay for their drugs'. This appeals very strongly to the plain thick.

It will take time for wiser counsels to prevail, but at least there is now movement.

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#1044520 - 22nd Sep 2017 9:21pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: Excoriator]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Originally Posted By: Excoriator
Not very strong on history are we on this topic. In fact, up to the late 1950s or early 1960s, there were no legal problems with doctors prescribing heroin on the NHS.


Britain still has that service, in fact Switzerland copied our mistakes as did other countries like Holland who found out how disastrous it was and are still recovering from the problems it caused. Before it was related to Switzerland it was known as "The British System" by most of the world.

Switzerland, like ourselves have not decriminalised possession of drugs, they had a short spell of attempting this in a specific location and it was a disaster that became known as "needle park" and had to be shut down.

Needle handouts and exchange systems have been in force for many years, addiction treatment likewise. It hasn't worked, at some point you need to protect society from the effects of drugs. A huge amount of crime and ASB is drug related, probably above 80%, its time a bottomless pit was created to remove this problem.

The number of Swiss males prosecuted for narcotics has gone up since the 1990s, that doesn't sound like a successful program especially if it has supposedly been "decriminalised".

If you want to know how drugs became rampant so quickly in the UK you need to look at Thatcher's plan for Liverpool that was assisted by America, the idea of helping Liverpool implode went hugely wrong as the drug problem soon spread across the rest of the country.

How is your History and current knowledge on the subject?
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044521 - 22nd Sep 2017 10:33pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
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1. British doctors cannot prescribe heroin.

2. Needle exchanges were opposed for ages, particularly in Edinburgh (we don't want to encourage addicts!) leading to a massive AIDS problem there until people wised up.

3. As drugs were only decriminalised in Switzerland in 2013, I am not at all surprised to find a massive increase in in convictions since the 1990s. (Not that 'convictions' is a very good measure of the number of addicts)

4. Possession of drugs was made a criminal offence in 1964 by the UK government under pressure from the USA, who evidently had learned nothing from their attempt to prohibit alcohol.

5. Switzerland's current policy is for addicts to receive free drugs, provided for them by the state in centres (shooting galleries). The idea was to remove the chaos from their lives allowing them to rejoin society. Many have managed to do this. It was piloted in Zurich and later adopted nationwide, although the vast majority of addicts are in Zurich. It is still illegal to sell drugs, but there ARE no sellers as addicts receive the drugs free. (They are not expensive, by the way.)

My History and knowledge of the subject are excellent thank you.

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#1044526 - 23rd Sep 2017 12:45am Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
diggingdeeper Offline

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British doctors can and do prescribe heroin. GPs require special approval however there are clinics which are authorised. Heroin is even supplied for home use, not just administered within clinics.

Switzerland narcotics possession:-

2011 4,710
2012 5,734
2013 6,087
2014 6,314
2015 6,545

The figures have gone up even after 2013!


Switzerland heroin seizures:-

2010 259.9kg
2012 162kg
2014 267kg

Switzerland cannabis seizures:-

2010 2,069kg
2012 2,170kg
2014 3,434kg

That is a lot of seizures for somewhere that has decriminalisation and has "no sellers".

It is not working, it wasn't the Rolleston report that controlled Britain's drug problems for over 40 years it was the availability, social and economic factors that controlled them.

Any system that increases the number of addicts cannot be called a success, its a dismal failure. The greater majority of parents do not want the opportunity for their kids to obtain drugs, you are not killing the market by treating addicts, you are still creating a market of non-addicts who will become addicts.

Another bit of strange information is that GP's only register about 50% of their addicts, there is no obligation for them to do so.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#1044535 - 23rd Sep 2017 10:47am Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
Excoriator Online   content
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Registered: 21st Jan 2010
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Loc: wirral
Convictions are not a good indicator of the quantity of drugs swilling about.

In fact, they can be an indication that decriminalisation is working. One of the effects of decriminalisation is to remove the glamour from the activity, meaning that young people are not attracted to it, and the public is more likely to report drug-related activity.

There is also the fact that police chiefs who previously deliberately didn't crack down on drugs for fear of escalating the cost and causing a crime wave, realise that free availability limits the cost and they can no go ahead and pursue illegal drugs more enthusiastically.

In my opinion, the availability of drugs for addicts provided by the state is by far the best way of limiting its use. It is also a lot more humane. The stuff is not adulterated or contaminated and the addicts can be kept healthy and encouraged to lead a normal law abiding life. The only thing this policy lacks is the element of sanctimonious vengeance so beloved of the tabloids and their slack-jawed readers.

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#1044536 - 23rd Sep 2017 10:58am Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
cools Offline
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Registered: 16th Aug 2013
Posts: 2073
Loc: Wirral
Well surprisingly this is one thing I can agree with you Ex.. I've thought this for a long time give the addicts the drugs because they're going to get them one way or another , usually at the cost of innocent victims.Of course still campaign in the schools etc to try and stop kids getting hooked but it would stop alot of these drug rings and misery being caused by violent drug lords. I know people say these horrible people would find something else but something different got to be tried because it ain't working now...

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#1044538 - 23rd Sep 2017 11:16am Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: diggingdeeper]
Dilly Offline

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Registered: 17th Jul 2011
Posts: 8228
Loc: wallasey
Yes give them their free drugs.

But only in overdose's.

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#1044546 - 23rd Sep 2017 7:11pm Re: Twelve Wirral Drug Arrests [Re: fish5133]
_Ste_ Offline


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Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 16043
Loc: New Brighton
Originally Posted By: fish5133
what a shame...my heart bleeds for them..

wonder if the stabbing in Wallasey was linked?


Highly doubt it fish.
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