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Posted By: Doctor_Frick Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 2:15pm
I took a trip with Dava249 to Neston library which is holding a small exhibit on the mines at Neston. I wanted to go to get more info for my website, but to be honest it was a bit of a let down. Anyways ...

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Nestons Mines
Denhall is a small hamlet located at the edge of the River Dee in the town of Neston. The hamlet was used
extensively as a mining hamlet with a colliery located near the waters edge. The mining operation was opened
in 1760 by Sir John Stanley and covered over seven acres. The operation consisted of an extensive coal mine
with numerous shafts, some of which even ran underneath the river. Several large kilns which were used to
produce quicklime, by the process of calcination. Also on the site was a large stone barn, a stack yard, a fold
yard, a fresh water pond and a large Quay to enable transportation of coal out of the area and to allow for the
importation of mining equipment and resources needed to maintain the operation. The quay was also used to
import roofing slate and limestone which could be turned into fertiliser. The surrounding fields and pastures held
names reflecting the mining operations, such as Colliery green and Miners Green.

Deep inside the mine beneath the floor level, two underground canals known as Navigation's were dug in out in
the summer of 1791 for the purpose of transporting coal to the exit shaft. The transportation along these
canals was carried out by small wooden boats known as Starvationers, named so because of their prominent
ribs. The boats were used to bring the coal from large distant faces to the pit shaft. The two canals were dug
55m and 86m below sea level and spread out underneath the Dee Estuary, which at the time was a hive of
activity. Once the boats were full the men would lay on their backs in the boat and push their feet along the
ceiling to propel the boat down the canal; this technique was refereed to locally as legging. On the canals 4
boats would be tied together with each one carrying 800kg of coal when full. As time advanced the use of the
boats stopped in favour of horse drawn wagons.

There are records of the working lives of these miners who were said to be more than 300 in numbers and sadly
included the employment of old men and children under the age of ten. The workers would endure a long hard
existence spending on average over ninety hours a week in the darkness of the Neston mines and in a constant
danger of industrial accidents. The homes of the workers were close by in the surrounding hamlet owned by sir
John Stanley, they have been described by one source as "the most miserable mass of hovels on the Wirral".

There are no records of significant flooding from the River Dee in the early collieries, though on atleast one
recorded occasion miners dug right through upto the river bed. In 1878 it is known that water from old workings
flooded into the mine forcing it to be abandoned temporarily. In 1882 there is a further note of nine ponies
being drowned in some kind of underground floor within the mines, proving that daily life in the mines was as
hazardous as it was hard.

Coal Extraction
The coal seams were accessed using shafts near the shore of the estuary. There is reported to have been
around 30 shafts, each around 2m wide in use for the colliery. Three larger shaft's were dug for the later
collieries. The early mines worked using a pillar & stall method. Tunnels or 'Stalls' were dug out through the
rock, but large amount of rock 'pillars' were left in place to ensure the roof did not collapse.

As mining operations were carried out under the estuary the coal had to be taken back to the shafts where it
would be raised to the surface. The boats were the early method of transport for the mines, followed by good
old horse power. The cost of hay was said to have been a great burden for the mines.

When the mine was first opened in 1760 the method of coal extraction was still primitive. As a result in the
general amount of coal that was removed was only about 40 percent. The use of wooden pit props to support
the roof was an innovation first introduced about 1800. The critical factor was circulation of air and control of
dangerous explosive gases which could build up and cause a fatality.

At first fires were burned to create air currents and circulate air, but replaced by fans driven by steam engines.
Protection for miners came with the invention of the Davy lamp and Geordie lamp, where any firedamp (or
methane) burnt harmlessly within the lamp. It was achieved by restricting the ingress of air with either metal
gauze or fine tubes, but the illumination from such lamps was very poor. Great efforts were made to develop
better safe lamps, such as the Mueseler lamp produced in the Belgian pits near Liège.

The Two Mines and an Intense Rivalry
Coal was so abundant in Britain when John Stanley opened the
mine that the annual output of coal was some 6¼ million tons.
After 1790 output soared not only in the Neston mine but
nationwide, reaching 16 million tons by 1815 at the height of
the Napoleonic War.

There is said to have been bitter rivalry between Sir John
Stanley who owned Ness Colliery and the owner of nearby rival
mine Little Neston Colliery owned by Thomas Cottingham.
Thomas brought two court cases against Sir John Stanley at
Chester Court over the ongoing problems. The first was in
1821 which related to the use of the underground canal, which
had been built under Cottingham's land, the lease having
expired in 1819.

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Two days after the end of the first court case, Stanleys men
were seen to bring up equipment, boats and horses, through
No 6 pit. Tall boards were erected on the surface to prevent
Cottingham from seeing what was going on whilst Stanleys men
also hid their face. Shortly after explosions were heard and
Cottingham found that his tunnel leading from Pit 21 to the
canal had been blown up.

The Second Court Case
The second case in 1822 was obviously more serious due to the destructive and dangerous actions which had
been taken by Stanleys men when blowing up the tunnel. Cottingham sued Stanley for trespass and wilful
damage to his mine for the sum of £10,000, based on lost sales and Stanleys malicious intent. In court Robert
Johnson, Stanleys agent; did not deny that Stanleys men had destroyed the tunnel , but justified the damage
done as being part of a scheme to manage the ventilation of Ness Colliery and to prevent Cottingham's men from
destroying the canal. The judge ruled that their was no malevolence involved and Stanley acted on his agents
best intended advice. The jury found in favour of Cottingham and awarded him just £2000 of the £10,000
requested.


Two Become One
In the mid nineteenth century both of the mines shut down for a short period but reopened under direction of
newly formed companies in 1873. The mine at Neston enjoyed a healthy profit until due to the silting up of the
River Dee, coal shipments to Ireland and North Wales ended. Alternative custom was secured from the railways,
brought about by the building of a link to the recently constructed Chester & Birkenhead Railway's branch to
Parkgate. The Wirral Colliery at Neston was taken over by the British government during the First World War.
The pit subsequently returned to private ownership after the war, but increasing competition from larger mines
precipitated in its closure in 1928. Now the site is completely occupied by a modern housing estate. I still
wonder how many of the people on the estate realise that there house is built above an old mine shaft the
entrance to which was long since covered up.


We then took a drive to find the two old mine shaft which are now burried. This is it now covered with foiliage and trees and hidden by a brick wall...cough cough Robbo...

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More pics on the site if your interested. Good Hunting !
Posted By: diggingdeeper Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 2:59pm
Thanks for that Fricky - doing a marvelous job with Old Wirral - keep goin'
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 3:19pm
Well done that man ! There used to be a few photographs of the colliery in the 1920's in the Harp. Going back a few years mindyou. Might be long gone by now.
Posted By: pacef8 Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 4:12pm
nope , the photos are still there, that is a really interesting write up. Many thanks
Posted By: TRANCENTRAL Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 4:19pm
nice pic and info doc keep it up! happy
Posted By: bri445 Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 6:33pm
Some more references:
'Neston & Parkgate Remembered', J.Pearson, 1998, pp104-115, 2 maps, 3 photos.
'Wyrale', Greg Dawson, 1996, pp39-62, 3 sketches, 3 poor photos,
'Birkenhead News' unknown date:


Description: 'Birkenhead News' unknown date, probably '50s
Attached picture Scan-090517-0001.jpg
Posted By: uggla Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 6:53pm
interesting would they be aerial shots on google earth of thats behind that wall
Posted By: Doctor_Frick Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 7:07pm
All thats behind there is trees. But it can be approached from the beach from behind. Type Riverside Walk into google maps and you can clearly see the 2 round circles of foliage.
Posted By: uggla Re: Neston Collierys - 17th May 2009 7:08pm
cheers doctor
Posted By: Annakin Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 6:45pm
I was sorry to read that you felt the current colliery display at Neston library was 'a bit of a let down'. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion though yours is the only comment to that effect that I (as principal organiser of the display) have received to date.

Given your comment I am surprised that you have nevertheless apparently used large amounts of information from the exhibition for your article and have used several pictures from the exhibition on your website. (I should add that we have no problem in principle with anyone doing this - we are keen for the collieries' history to be better known. However this approach doesn't sit easily with your view that the display was a let-down).

Can I also politely suggest that you use the information from the exhibition to correct the many errors that you managed to incorporate into your piece.

Anthony Annakin-Smith
Posted By: MrPhil Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 6:56pm
Did you have a wander on the marsh? as you go to the front you turn right to the Black Hills (think their called them lol)

My old neighbour used to work in them, unfortunatly he passed away 2 months ago or i would of asked alot of questions.
Posted By: Doctor_Frick Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 10:12pm
Originally Posted by Annakin
I was sorry to read that you felt the current colliery display at Neston library was 'a bit of a let down'. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion though yours is the only comment to that effect that I (as principal organiser of the display) have received to date.

Given your comment I am surprised that you have nevertheless apparently used large amounts of information from the exhibition for your article and have used several pictures from the exhibition on your website. (I should add that we have no problem in principle with anyone doing this - we are keen for the collieries' history to be better known. However this approach doesn't sit easily with your view that the display was a let-down).

Can I also politely suggest that you use the information from the exhibition to correct the many errors that you managed to incorporate into your piece.

Anthony Annakin-Smith


Anthony ... Sorry if i upset you with that comment, I have PM'd you.

Doc
Posted By: Doctor_Frick Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 10:39pm

Originally Posted by Philw
Did you have a wander on the marsh? as you go to the front you turn right to the Black Hills (think their called them lol)

My old neighbour used to work in them, unfortunatly he passed away 2 months ago or i would of asked alot of questions.


Phil

No mate, may go for a wander soon though; its an interesting area. Shame about your neighbour, bet he would have had some great stories.
Posted By: greasby_lad Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 10:39pm
Well said, Anthony.
You have highlighted one of the problems on this site - individuals seeking kudos as historians when all they have mastered is how to cut & paste.
I visited the library exhibition yesterday and was suitably impressed.
Please don't give up on this site, despite the posters who take other people's work and claim it as their own there are also people who have done their own research and their posts are informative - and they always show their sources.
Posted By: Doctor_Frick Re: Neston Collierys - 19th May 2009 10:57pm
Hmmm cant see anywhere on the site that i have claimed to have written somebody elses work. Also i have never claimed to be a historian, i am simply interested in local history and wanted a site in which to record it all rather than looking for random bits of info on the web. Also there are no sources added as i have told you on numerous occassions that the site is not finished, and is only in beta testing for people on wiki. And just as a final note, you will find lots of info and photos that we have added ourselves.

I personally believe that there isnt a problem with this forum other than people who like to take pot shots at each other, rather than getting out there to discover & record history themselves.

You are of course, also entitled to your opinion ! hammer

Posted By: greasby_lad Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 6:12am
I actually think that you are doing a good thing by creating a single website for Wirral history and also by your postings here. I can see that the website involves a lot of work on your part, full marks to you for that. But, taking this Neston Collieries posting as an example, you are pasting someone else's work alongside your own name. That person has spent months researching and writing the piece.
It is not too difficult to add "The following text is taken from ... "
Posted By: Annakin Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 4:24pm
Doctor Frick,

You say you haven't 'claimed to have written somebody else's work' but you have to admit that you made no attempt to indicate the source of most of the material in your article and were apparently happy to take the plaudits in the posts on 17 May.

Having said that, you did send me a friendly, conciliatory PM -so 'thank you'. While I can't agree with your views on the colliery exhibition at Neston, I do accept that they were honestly held.

Given that you have all the info, I'll leave you to pick out the errors in your article.

Anthony Annakin-Smith
Posted By: diggingdeeper Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 4:43pm
I think most people on WikiWirral are in it to share and enjoy, not for "kudos". Likewise we know we are rank amateur historians, unlike many proffesionals who have made huge gaffs at times and yet still maintain their eminent status.

We thank people for finding and sharing information as well as creating it.

I am sure you are fully aware that over 60% sources turn out to be secondary and so the majority of primary sources are never recognised.

If Dr Frick had acknowledged the libraries as the source he would have being doing a huge injustice to the real sources of information, I am sure that very little if any of the library work was by recollection and most of it was sourced from other books and articles, who in turn were quoting from.......etc.

If you don't know the primary sources, what is the point, why acknowledge yet another copy? Do you have to acknowledge all copies?
Posted By: Annakin Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 4:43pm
Thanks Greasby Lad. Your support is appreciated.

I agree with both the positive and negative things you say about the site. At the very least I think an acknowledgement of sources is appropriate. (Having said that, I don't want to get too 'precious' about all this - all historians build on the works of others. But it did rather rile me after the previous critical comment about the exhibition.)

Thanks too for your kind comments on the exhibition. It's created an enormous amount of interest and we've had a lot of very positive feedback - which makes it all worthwhile given that it was put together by a band of volunteers.

Incidentally, if any reader is interested, there is a service to remember those who worked (and sometimes died) at the collieries next Sunday (24th May), 3 p.m. The venue is - unusually - the beer garden of The Harp pub in Little Neston.
Posted By: bert1 Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 5:13pm
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
I think most people on WikiWirral are in it to share and enjoy, not for "kudos". Likewise we know we are rank amateur historians, unlike many proffesionals who have made huge gaffs at times and yet still maintain their eminent status.

We thank people for finding and sharing information as well as creating it.

I am sure you are fully aware that over 60% sources turn out to be secondary and so the majority of primary sources are never recognised.

If Dr Frick had acknowledged the libraries as the source he would have being doing a huge injustice to the real sources of information, I am sure that very little if any of the library work was by recollection and most of it was sourced from other books and articles, who in turn were quoting from.......etc.

If you don't know the primary sources, what is the point, why acknowledge yet another copy? Do you have to acknowledge all copies?


Totally agree DD, Dr Frick is doing a good job and may long it continue.
Posted By: SUExx Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 6:09pm
i dont think it really matters who did the research in the begining, the fact that some one else has the sense and time to cut and paste all this infomation to put on wiki to share with everyone is doing a great job. The history section is really great and i would like to say thanks to everyone who contributes to it.
Posted By: Historybook Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 6:56pm
I was hopeing to view the Mine history display, but when i arrived at the Library it was er-well shut !. When i lived in the area it was open all hours !!!.

Oh well better luck next time !.
Posted By: Annakin Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 6:57pm
Hi Diggingdeeper,

Actually, as author of much of the written material on display, I can trace pretty well every statement back to a primary source - a letter, newspaper, deed, public record, map etc. (I am sure the writers of the other material on display could do the same). Any good researcher will always go to primary sources for the important information, provided such sources still exist. Secondary sources are notoriously unreliable. Details of all primary (and secondary) sources used in my colliery research are in the library.

Having said that, I agree with your general point that it is not possible every time that someone writes something to acknowledge every source of information used (except in formal research). If bits of the library exhibition find their way into the 'general record' without acknowledgement I have no problem with that (but if I writer is drawing substantially on another source it's usually polite to acknowledge it; this also gives the reader the chance to delve deeper if he/she wishes). However, my original point was simply that Doctor Frisk appeared to have drawn extensively on our research whilst at the same time criticising it for being a 'let down'. I couldn't see how he could have it both ways. He has since contacted me to explain that the exhibition was not what he'd been led to expect by third parties - so I'm happy to accept that particular issue as closed.

Going back to primary/secondary sources, it is always rewarding to go to primary sources if you have the time and inclination. If you want me to point you towards some of the main ones so you can do your own research into an area of interest I'm happy to do so.
Posted By: Doctor_Frick Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 7:49pm
As iv said over & over, the site is not finished and it WILL contain sources for all material used. When i post stuff on wiki its nearly always from another source, i just put it on for people to learn from and enjoy as i do. If its something i have written or photos i have taken, i clearly state that; so basically unless i say i have written it then its not mine.

I am no historian and im not trying to annoy people by copying and pasting different articles and pictures; and i have certainly NEVER claimed to have written somebody elses work. There are many history websites out there that do not referance the sources but this does not claim that they have written the materials. That said, there is a lot i have written on my site and a lot of photos that i have taken; so its not just a copy and paste site.

I will continue to work on Old Wirral and continue to post on Wiki and i hope that those of you who do view the subjects i post, will continue to enjoy them.

Doc sherlock
Posted By: pacef8 Re: Neston Collierys - 20th May 2009 9:20pm
Two people both passionate about the local history . May i suggest that you both pool your knowledge and experiences to further your endeavors, its a logical progression.

You should both be commended for your work and EPC for keeping a library resource.

pace
Posted By: Historybook Re: Neston Collierys - 23rd May 2009 1:45pm
I paid a second visit to the Library this morning (shut last week), and i thought it was worth the time to stop and have a look.
I thought the misshap list was very interesting giving the names and adresses of a few of the people who where injured, it was also nice to see that some of the people in the pictures had names given to them, it seems to be forgoten nowadays that in a lot of cases the pictures where taken because of the people in them and the background was of no interest to the photographer.
Posted By: UrbanEx2U Re: Neston Collierys - 19th Dec 2009 8:01pm
emmm mines in Neston ??
Posted By: Tatey Re: Neston Collierys - 20th Dec 2009 9:31am
Originally Posted by Robbo_theMan
emmm mines in Neston ??


When I was working on the old rectory of St. Hilary in Wallasey, it was rumored that Lady Hamilton used to slip through the tunnels from Neston to enjoy a pint in the Cheshire Cheese.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Neston Collierys - 20th Dec 2009 2:06pm
Tunnel from Neston to Wallasey ?????? ermmmmmmmmm ?
Posted By: MrPhil Re: Neston Collierys - 20th Dec 2009 2:35pm
Originally Posted by Robbo_theMan
emmm mines in Neston ??


Yes, go down near The Harp Pub, when you get to the Marsh turn right and their is some of the exsisting [censored] from them days.
Posted By: SoundLad Re: Neston Collierys - 21st Dec 2009 10:53am
how long did it take you to find this ?? lol tease
Posted By: MrPhil Re: Neston Collierys - 21st Dec 2009 11:00am
lol
Posted By: Neston_Vasey Re: Neston Collierys - 8th Jan 2010 4:05pm
There are tunnels, I'm lead to believe they link the pubs, and run under the grave yard in the centre of Neston, once used for smuggling.

The mines are down the front, as stated head towards the Harp in Little Neston, as you reach the marsh turn right and follow the path, the black hills (sl@g heaps) are to the right.
Posted By: w10694 Re: Neston Collierys - 23rd May 2012 10:48pm
How far did the collieries go, about this far!

There were approx 35 shafts altogether.

The shaft locations detailed below are fairly accurate, but I cannot vouch for their accuracy, I've simply done my best with the maps available.

I'm writing a short history of the underground workings.

These maps (photos) show some of the early original maps from Mr. AAS Photoshopped onto Google Earth using the known locations of the shafts to obtain the scale of the workings and the direction of the workings. RAF Aerial photos (1940's) from the NMR were also used to obtain more accurate shaft locations.

Little Neston Collieries (closed around 1855, one reopened in the 1920's for a very short period)

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Wirral / Neston Colieries (closed around 1928 (?)). Shows various seams, and an underground inclined plane.

This map shows only the limits of the underground workings. The curvy red line is the approx limit of the coal measures.

Note that it crosses the coastline approx near the stream from Neston sewerage works.

If you look in the bottom of the brook, under the footbridge, you can often pick out lumps of Neston coal.

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A section of the coalfield where it crosses the coastline.

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