I desperately need a condenser and maybe coil for a ---- wait for it ---- 1972 Austin 1300

Any ideas where I will get that local and quick? I have a potential buyer for the car coming soon and - **** - when I came to start it today
a. It was a bit of a pig to start (unusual)
b. Ran for a bit but when I tried to drive it then after half a mile lots of "missing" then strong backfires ---- and the engine died on me.

Left it parked while I walked to get tools. Cleaned the plugs (incredibly sooty) and behold, it started. Ran it for 300 yards and again backfires then engine cuts.

Had it pushed the last 100 yards home

Checked the spark at the plugs - weak, VERY weak so suspect condenser (well known to fail on BL A series engine) or coil.

I know I can get theme easy off Ebay etc but TIME is the issue as I want to get the car fixed and running asap

Thanks folks

Snod

95% sure it is the condenser/ capacitor

If I move the car so the distributor points are closed
Switch on ignition
push open the points with an insulated screw driver

Big fat spark between the points
Points also look worn/ pitted

Reasonable to expect some spark but not a fat one as seen
Fortunately (I'm an old hoarder) I have a brand new set of points in a sealed bubble pack. The pack will be 20-30 years old but so what.

What I do not have is a condenser/ capacitor

Where can I get one? You can forget Hafrauds and the like for an item as old as this even though the standard Lucas distributor was very common.

Snod

give me a call - 07973402021

Got aload of mini ones here, should be the same, inbox me

If Mini one's fit i might have some,
me being a old hoarder too ;-)

Thanks folks
I will go to see Chris Gilly early on tomorrow. If I need more then I will contact you other kind folk

regards Snod

I picked up a condenser from LVW (in stock !!) fitted it and the car started and ran well. Drove it up and down Leasowe Rd a few times - ran perfect - then stopped the engine while I opened the Allygates to the lock up. Then the ***** would not restart until I "wound the key quite a lot".

Something else is not quite right but I am not sure what it is. I have a suspicion that it may be fuel supply. A few months ago I cleaned out the float pot on the carb and back blew the in-line filter that has been fitted close to the carb. May re-do the filter again.

I say that because while the engine is running the clear plastic case of this filter never FILLS. It just seems to have a dribble of fuel coming through. Maybe me just imagining things.

I PRESUME the fuel pump on the 1300 is mechanical ?? as were the pumps on all post 1969 Minis. WHERE it is I have no idea - back of the engine I guess. I have never looked on this car. I also guess it has a filter in the pump and that cleaning this would be a good idea. *** that. The next owner can do it. I think I will just disconnect the pipe from the in-line filter that has been fitted up by the carb and then crank the engine to check there is reasonable fuel flow into a container. I will clean that filter (or replace) anyway.

Any advice from the learned is appreciated

Snod

pump is rear of the block, assuming it's not got an electric one. not filter in the pump, if it is pump related could be split diaphragm, open the oil filler and see if you can smell fuel.

Ah, same as on Mini (understandable I suppose).

I would rather leave the actual pump alone considering I hope/ plan to sell the car on Saturday. Tomorrow I will clean the in-line filter then do the crank it test to see of there is reasonable fuel flow into a bottle. There cannot be much wrong with the pump given the car drove faultless up/ down Leasowe Rd 4 times. However, the prospective buyer has to drive to Bath. Rather him than me!

Snod

there's not much it can be and bits are cheap enough. could be worth pulling the lid on the float bowl when it dies and seeing how much fuel is in there, could be sticking needle valve.

be a shame to see this go, the wife's granddad used to keep his mini in one of the garages opposite.

Fuel flow from the pump was checked and is FINE. I fitted a new in-line filter anyway. The car started perfect this morning and I ran it to New Brighton and back. Some hesitation and maybe slight misfire towards the end of the run.

Switched off while I replaced a duff trafficator bulb - then the **** would not restart.

Very weak spark. I will pick up a new coil this afternoon from LVW. I suspect the 42 year old coil deteriorates when it gets warm. Not expensive and an easy-peasy job to change it. New coil can't do any harm anyway.

Fingers crossed

Snod

The saga goes on - and on

Fitted a new coil. Easy job.
Engine ran sweet so went for a drive around N Brighton again and then at the Leasowe/ Greenleas traffic lights on the way back it stalled AND WOULD NOT RESTART.

Left it for 20 mins (in case a vapour lock) still would not start.

Pushed it to Village Motors, gave them the story of what I have done and the hot start problem - and said FIX IT

Not like me to be a quitter but time is important

Snod

The joys of the old points ignition,If it where me,I would of popped off the air filter and squirt a little fuel down the vent and see if it will start then if not feel the Coil if theres a short then it will get very hot bare in mind they do get warm after long runs,those points have a habit of closing after fitting&setting, don`t ask me how lol. good luck with it anyway if you don't have any luck at the garage I wouldn't mind having a fettle with it just for old time sake.

What beats me is that when it does start and run it runs sweet as a nut. THAT says the points are OK. If they were "off" it just would not run al all.

Fuel - that was an initial thought and as a check I took the pipe off the carb and connected the feed to a bottle, and then cranked the engine. Ample fuel was being pumped so the is nowt wrong with the pump diaphagm.

Yes, I suppose that when the *** does not start it could be a good idea to direct feed a bit of fuel into the carb. However, when it stopped then would not start tonight I did not have any tools etc in the car. Similarly, it would have been a good idea to take out a plug and check for spark. SHOULD spark ok because it is a brand new coil - but of course that presumes the coil is getting volts input. Again, no tools with me.

Ah well, it will get sorted. I just want it running well enough that on Saturday the buyer can get it safely back to Bristol area. This old car has never been driven that far in all it's 42 years !! I'll keep folk posted on progress.

Snod

Good old Sod's Law eh ? It'll be something daft I'm sure. At least there's no electronic crap to confuse matters. All very straight forward stuff. Mmmmm ?? Fingers crossed for you !!!

HT leads?

Just reminds me of the coil, even though its been replaced.

sounds daft but if its got an su carb check theres oil in the dashpot.....no oil could be causing it to flood too much fuel when warn but enough to start it from cold..............sadly a lot of garages carnt fix old stuff....its a dieing art lol

I had a Mini which normally ran OK but
on a long run would misfire. After cooling
down it would be OK. It was fitted with HT
leads with what seemed like carbon conductors
presumably acting as TV suppressors? Anyway
I replaced them with copper cored HT leads
(coil and plug) and it cured the problem.
When I cut open the old leads there were gaps
in the conductors.

Earlier I had a Ford 100E with a mechanical
fuel pump which also failed when the engine
was hot. Pump replacement cured it.

Might also be worth checking if the fuel tank
is developing a vacuum while running if no
venting. This can stop fuel flow. Test by
leaving petrol cap off on a run but don't
leave it that way!

Folks

A few good pointers there. I am sure the HT leads (and dizzy cap/ rotor) were replaced within the last 1500 miles.

Vac forming in tank - unlikely but a good point.

Let us see what Village Motors will say. I went there this morning and demonstrated to them that the car would start easy when cold - it did, first turn of the key. Then ran nicely. Told THEM to run it to hot and see

Snod

Demented Update

Still no "answer" to the problem
The garage confirm all I have said. Starts from cold perfectly and runs with a nice even tick-over. However, when it gets hot it will not re-start

They report
- SOMETIMES there is no/ weak spark at all plugs
There is a 12V feed to the coil when this happens but they will do a hot wire job as a secondary check

A duff coil cannot be ruled out but the first step is to try new HT lead coil to dizzy. It is unlikely to be an HT to plug because logically that would probably not affect all 4 plugs

- SOMETIMES there seems to be no fuel to the engine ie plugs are dry even after cranking the engine a lot to try to get it to start.

Carb has been opened and the float seems to be working OK.
Sound like the classic "vapour loc" problem but the mechanical pump does work OK (so not a diaphragm gone) when tested. I have suggested making SURE there is no tank vacuum problem (take the cap off) and to blow the tubes, even back from the pump to the tank if that is technically possible.

Yesterday I had a problem with another engine - on a motor mower. Would not start/ run except on a bit of petrol poured directly into the air intake. When I stripped the carb it was full of JELLY. Modern fuels with biofuel components will do this ie pick up moisture and make jelly. The mower had been in a shed all winter. The car had been in an unheated garage.

Humm

Snod

Turnips Dad here. give me a call if they cant sort it. these cars are my era. worked on these at Windsor's in the early 80's.

Has it been laid up with an empty fuel tank? I mention this as you may have internal corrosion in the tank causing a restriction at the pick up (stack pipe)when the vehicle is moved/driven.... just a thought as you mentioned it sometimes gave the impression of no fuel delivery to the engine. also check the wire from the coil to the distributor and the wire from the base plate to the connection on the distributor which attaches to the negative wire as it may have a high resistance which is aggravated as the engine gets hot. Check the King Lead HT lead, if this fails there will be no spark to the dissy cap.

Turnip - thanks to your dad. Comments noted and will follow up.
If dad worked in Windsors in early 80s he has likely even worked on the car at some time.

There is bound to be some sediment / corrosion in the tank after 42 years. The old in-line filter I replaced did contain some fine black sediment - although not a lot. This potential problem is why I suggested the garage should (if it is possible) blow air back to the tank from the fuel pump inlet.

Snod

I am now convinced this is a fuel delivery problem!

I brought the car back from the garage because they are too busy to do anything other than some preliminary tests.

It started fine because the engine was cold and it is only a short drive to my house.

This afternoon I checked fuel flow from the pump (cold engine) and no problem

Also checked the filter to carb pipe was fully clear/ the float valve worked ok etc and I cleaned the carb jet/ needle/ float chamber well with proper cleaner.

This evening I ran the engine from cold up to normal working temperature while watching the fuel in the transparent in-line fuel filter

After 8-10 mins small bubbles started to come through with the fuel. After a minute or so more these became larger and more frequent until eventually the bubbles filled the outlet pipe of the in-line filter. At this point the engine started to falter and then eventually stopped. Trying to rev the engine did not clear the bubbles.

Removing the top of the float chamber showed it to be near empty.

I checked the spark at the plus (easy when it has gone dark) and there was spark there at all plugs.

The fuel filter DOES GET warm - not a lot but definitely warm. Understandable given the mechanical pump at the back of the engine and that the pipe to the carb runs up past the exhaust manifold. There is no other way it can run.

Looks to me like the fuel pump has a fault but .. but others may have advice

- esp Turnip's dad !!!

Snod

Could the in line filter be the wrong way around?.

Difficult to answer that one Zip. There is now "flow direction" indicator on the filter body and as bought no instructions. I can TRY changing it around tomorrow. Bit late now.

I suspect the diaphragm in the fuel pump has developed a few leaks and when warm it does not deliver enough pressure

Snod

I have just been reading on this link, might be of use
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=342025

Nice find Zip. Will take me a while to read through it though. A lot does not apply to an ancient petrol engine with an SU carb but maybe some good pointers.

Thanks

Snod

Hi Snod, this is what I would do.......Using the process of elimination I would isolate the fuel supply from the tank by removing the delivery pipe at the inlet of the pump, blank off this pipe to stop any fuel loss.
Use a container (an old plastic fuel can) as a second source to act as a fuel reservoir, drill the top and place a delivery tube with an equivalent internal diameter as the original delivery pipe.
I would, at a later point fit a hand primer pump to the line.
Place the fuel tank in the passenger footwell and also have a passenger to assist you.
You have now eliminated the fuel tank and associated fuel delivery equipment. Now take it for a run, if it operates without any problems you have located that the problem lies with the tank or the fuel system delivery; if it does fail fit and you use the hand primer as a back up to the pump and deliver the fuel by hand, if it now runs ok you have identified that it is the fuel pump. The fuel pump uses poppet valves to allow the one way flow of the fuel, it is possible that these are not seating properly due to debris in the system and if this is the case then the hand primer has a one way valve and will compensate for this.
I could put the above equipment together and I can assist if you wish, give me a call – 07973402021.

Have you checked the choke is working correctly? Starts well when cold, won't start when hot maybe suggests choke is not working. Just a thought.,

wouldn`t it put the revs up?

Today - usual 10-15 mins running then engine stopped and would not restart. HOWEVER - NO bubbles in the fuel filter. Yesterday I did re-route the fuel flexible as far from the exhaust area as possible and mounted the filter vertical rather than horizontal. No idea what those steps will have achieved.

Difficult to judge spark in daylight. I tried a hot wire direct from the battery to coil +ve but no difference to starting. Anyway, I did not have enough time to investigate properly

Turnip, I will sort-of follow your suggestion. What I will do is blank off the fuel from the pump but feed fuel direct by gravity from a bottle on the car roof - stationary of course. If the engine still fails as it gets hot then that will more or less have eliminated a fuel issue and I can concentrate on electrics.

Snod

Update
Over the weekend I found a weak/ rusty bit under the car and THAT is a priority for attention. "I can easy sort that" says the man I visited.

Starting problem. More or less as Turnip suggested I blanked off the fuel flow from the pump and gravity fed the engine with fuel from a bottle on the car roof. As usual it faltered/ stopped after 10 mins when it became hot and then refused to start.

OK, so looks like it is definitely NOT a fuel problem

This morning (AFTER the rain) I was examining "things" and found that the tube from the carb to the vac advance system on the dizzy had been blanked off. A sawn off screw had been put into one end of the tube. I have no idea by whom or when. I took this out and started the engine with vac connected.

SOME success. Well, at least the engine now ran on tick over (with periodic blips on the throttle) for about 35 mins. Previously it had "died" when hot after 10 mins. The engine was still running well when I stopped it deliberately at 35 mins. I suspect it would have continued running if I had not stopped it. Sounded fine. However - the hot engine would not restart. It NEARLY "caught" once or twice but never actually made it.

I call this progress even if not yet a solution.

I have also found a small leak at the joint between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust. Nothing major but it does blow a bit.

Snod

The vacuum pipe is to advance the ignition I think? Since it seems to run better with it re-connected, I wonder if the ignition timing is just well off, such that when hot, it's just too far off, to re-start? Anyone got a Timing (strobe) light?

I have a xenon strobe! Took a while to find it but did eventually. I also found my compression tester so with a HOT engine I took out all plugs and measured the pressures in the cylinders (a) pressures say 125psi so gauge says (b) importantly same for all cylinders - so valves are ok

Timing. Would love to meed the ***** from Brit Leyland who decided that timing could be done with a mirror looking through that hole in the bell casting on the side of the engine -- with the battery right in front of it!!!

Did it eventually and timing at 8deg before TDC seems correct. Vac advance certainly works ok.

Tonight I took the car for a drive - 25 miles. Can you imagine driving 25 miles just up & down the Wallasey - New Brighton prom?? Talk about boring. Anyway, the engine ran perfectly all the way with no hesitations etc. Then I drove home, stopped the engine and - of course it would not restart. Left it 5 mins - still no. Left it 10 - still no. Engine needs to be cooler then I KNOW it will restart.

Do we have a Smiley for "banging your head on the wall"?

Snod

125psi is a bit on the low side, did you do it on wide open throttle?

The throttle was open but maybe not wide open - it was ****** down on Monday morning and I was not at my best! Anyway, I do not think 125psi is that bad for a 42 year old car. Actually the pointer on the gauge is sloped and I quoted 125psi as the pressure where the slope begins. The tip of the pointer was at about 155psi. To me the main point is that all the pressures were even

Snod

Went to see "a man" today who has knowledge of older engines. His logic was impeccable ie you have fuel, you have spark, timing seems reasonable and is anyway not critical on these engines - so it must be carb.

He fiddled with the lifter pin on the SU carb and weakened the mix with the jet adjuster (I had forgotten about those). Still would not restart when hot so did some more jet fiddling myself. Finally went for a 5 mile drive this afternoon - and the hot engine DID restart . . . 5 times. OK it coughed ba k to life rather than came totally willingly but it LOOKS LIKE nearly there . . . maybe

Watch this space

Snod

I've been following this, good job Snod.

Just a thought but could there perhaps be an issue with the Choke? If it's still in operation or not working right, that might make it hard or even impossible to start, when hot?
(I know Many of us have forgotten what the choke is, since most cars today have automatic ones! LOL)
Maybe have a look here?
Click

Yes, I well remember manual chokes. Got one on the Pinz. When the dashboard "Choke" knob was fully pulled out, it made an ideal hook for women to hang their handbags on ! The same women who moaned about only getting 7mpg from their Moggy Minor !

I know the choke problem well - Years ago I have had several Minis, a Ford Anglia and a Metro. The choke mechanism on the 1300 works fine both applying choke and taking it full off.

From '72 I had a VW camper and that had an electric choke ie a bi-metal coil operated the choke way back in the engine compartment and the coil unwound/ removed choke action once the ignition was on and current flowed through the bi-metal. NOT the best system and prone to coil breakage - but a 16ft long choke cable would have been even more iffy. The 16ft throttle linkage was bad enough!

Giving the 1300 a rest for tonight - I'm knackered

Snod

what carb is on it?

SU HS4

Single carb - real basic. One jet with tapered needle. You can adjust the mix by moving the jet up or down relative to the needle using a screw motion ie can do one nut flat at a time for fine adjustment. Jet orifice is likely a bit worn after 40K miles but that would not explain the starting problem - and anyway apart from the starting problem the engine runs very well

Snod

unlikely to be the cause but have you checked the spindle for play? also is it a waxstat jet?

I am like many am willing you to fix this

Turnips dad here - If the engine, when hot is still refusing or is reluctant to start these are the basic checks I would do when it is not starting.
Checking the ignition primary ignition circuit -
This model year is too early for a ballast resistor so I am assuming with confidence that it is a “standard” ignition setup, ie 12 volt.

Take a test lamp ( use a 21 watt bulb as this will give enough current demand and will be more susceptible to highlight high resistances) and place one wire to the positive on the coil and one to chassis ground, it should light once the ignition is switched on. Now leave the wire connected to the positive side of the coil in place and take the grounded wire and put it on the negative side of the coil, if you now rotate the engine the light should come on and go off as the points open and close, if the pulsing of the light is erratic then you have a continuity problem.

To check that you have HT voltage use your Xenon strobe on each HT lead including the King Lead, again look for erratic pulses. If you do have erratic pulses check the HT leads (they can become hygroscopic and susceptible to moisture contamination) also check the rotor and cap for tracking and arcing.

I know you have replaced the condenser but I have known them to fail quite quickly and I have had some which were faulty straight out of the packet and because of the nature of the failure (it was the wire connection to the foil) it was relevant to heat build up.

The HS4 is a simple and reliable carburettor and unless it is gummed up or there is no fuel delivery to the float chamber then it should operate. You mention that you weakened off the carb and it seemed to start better albeit with a few coughs and splutters. If you have a weak spark it is more likely to be quenched with a rich fuel/air ratio than a weaker ratio.

These engine do not like tight tappets, check the valve clearances, if my memory is correct they are inlet 0.010 and exhaust 0.012.

I relish a challenge, I would be happy to take a look. I am tied up over this weekend fitting a BMC 1500 diesel and rewiring the engine room on a canal boat but could possibly have some time mid-week or later.

If you do check the tappets use the rule of nine - ie, valve number one fully depressed adjust number eight, valve number five fully depressed adjust number four etc.

Just another thought, again if my memory serves me correctly (it was a few decades ago when I worked at Windsors) there were two different types of lucas condensers for the Austin/Morris/Rove etc range. one was an 18 microfarad and the other was a 22 microfarad, yours should be the 22 microfarad.

Lots of useful stuff there Turnip's dad. Many thanks. I will see how I get on. Progress may be a bit slow because yesterday I fell off my motorbike. Well, actually I was stationary and the bike fell over because I had parked on a slope, but I strained my back trying to stop it falling and then picking it up again. There was no damage to the bike but I feel a bit fragile so I need to take it easy for a day or so.

Snod

mechanical oil pump cog or spring loaded rod to cam. steal Rod was of a softer metal and was liable to wear.I think yours is a cog. Just a thought zzzzzzzzz

Temptation was too great - had a bit of a "fettle" on the engine this afternoon ie fiddled a bit more with the main jet adjustment.

Result? Pleased to report that the engine is running even better. After doing some 10 miles of so on top of the miles yesterday the plug electrodes are now a light chocolate colour as I remember they should be. Previously they were generally very sooty.

AND - AND - the hot engine is starting. I would not say perfectly ie still a bit of hesitation but I can live with that. Several times I have tried a restart 30 secs, 2 mins and 5 mins after stopping a hot engine -- and it has restarted.

What else have I done?
The things Turnip's dad suggested ( all the tests said OK)

AND I took the in-line fuel filter out. Why? Because the filter body DOES sometimes fill with vapour/ air or whatever especially after a run. This can easy fill half of the filter and it is quite a big filter. MY THEORY was that heat from the engine was affecting the fuel ie making it warm and to produce bubbles, and that when trying to restart the hot engine the fuel pump had first to displace this vapour or whatever through the float chamber before the engine would run. With no in-line filter there is only the very small volume of fuel in the thick walled rubber type pipe from the pump to the carb. MY logic was that the pump would very quickly displace any small amount of vapour from this pipe and that would not affect the float chamber enough to inhibit starting

Emphasise - MY THEORY. Could be total bull**** of course but maybe, just ,maybe it has helped.

The engine is now running so well and I believe it will hot start good enough that once a bit of corrosion on the underfloor has been repaired next week - I would have confidence to drive the car down to Bath. In Bath there is a guy who has "expressed a keen interest" in buying this Classic. He came to see it last week end but was a bit put off by the poor starting etc. I am trying to revitalise his interest.

Snod

Well done Snod,but I'm almost sorry you seem to have fixed the problem as I was enjoying following your trials and tribulations and all the suggested remedies.

Well done Snod; thank goodness for a car which isn't all black boxes when you open the bonnet and which you can actually fix with a hammer

Well done Snodvan I was enjoying your trials too.

I have a new condenser and a coil of a triumph spitfire both working when swapped for electronic. PM if you are interested. Also a new set of points if they are compatible, never used.