• Closure of Kingsway and Queensway Tunnels - Wednesday 30 November 2011
As a Fast Tag Account holder, and therefore a regular user of the Mersey Tunnels, it is with regret that we write to inform you of a planned full closure of the two Mersey Tunnels, Wallasey and Birkenhead, on Wednesday 30th November 2011.
At the time of writing, Merseytravel has received formal notification via Trade Unions of planned industrial action across the public sector on Wednesday 30th November 2011. It is expected that this industrial action will involve members of staff involved in the operation of the Mersey Tunnels and will therefore impact on the safe operation of the two Tunnels. It is for safety reasons that the two Tunnels will be closed.
The attached link to our website details the actual times associated with this closure. Please be aware that the closure will commence at 23.45 hours on 29th November 2011, and we will be open as normal from 00.15 hours on 1st December 2011. Our latest press release is also included on our website under "Latest News" and we will be utilising the local press to make our users aware of this closure as much as possible. Of course, should this position change as the date approaches we will obviously communicate that as widely as possible too.

bummer! Long way round to manchester for me.

I hope nobody is seriously ill or injured and needs transferring under Police escort from this side to one of the Liverpool hospitals, i.e. for Neuro, during these hours then!

Having said that, I hope that there isn't more than one serious RTC this side either as there's only one car covering the Wirral now since it was all moved over to Smithdown

i'm sure there will be access for emergency vehicles.

Being unskilled workers, the buggers should be grateful to have jobs at all.

Stuff the strike. I hope that volunteers do the work and keep things running.

is this the first time both tunnels have been closed at the same time???

Sack the lot and employ people who want to work on a new contract. Apparently a lot them don't actually want to strike but daren't go in. Charmin

Aye let's get back to the good old days of mill owners and mine owners and paying pittances to their workers - like it or lump attitudes

trade unions the poison behind it all, they wanna get lost, things ar bad enough without them idiots making things worse!!!!

bomb it down the motorway

the way i see it they want the general public to pay for there over priced pensions,, i say let the greedy gits pay for there own pensions if they want one,,,, some of us aint so lucky to have one but where expected to pay for theres

time to get rid of the trade unions, thatcher nearly did it, then stupid arse labour gave them all there powers back, because thats were they get political funding from.

So no rights for workers? You wouldn't say that if your terms and conditions have changed. I can't go through the tunnel either that day and will gladly take the wrong way round to support the workers.

Obviously a tory voter comment.

i dont suppose for one minute Merseytravel would just " open" the tunnels would they....thought not....and people should always have a right to strike , just cos you dont agree with it.

Well I'm a local government worker and I'll be on strike on the 30th. As will almost all my colleagues. None of us want to lose a days pay but you have to take a stand sometime. Hopefully this will be the start of a massive fight-back against the Tories.

Up the workers!

The tunnels will be open to emergency service vehicles. They will have no trouble passing from one side of the Mersey to the other. The Unions agreed for some Tunnel staff to go in for this reason. All staff who volunteer will give their pay for the day to Clatterbridge Hospital.

Thatcher had it in for the working class, no look what the modern day tory goverment are doing!

got to clean up labours mess so everybody will suffer before it gets better. if u want to blame anybody, blame labour for plunging us billions in to debt!

Send the kids up chimneys, why shouldn't they have to earn their keep

The last time this happened Neil Scales (Merseytravel Cheif Exec) joined the strikers in the picket line. Will he be there this time?

What about the shit thatcher and co left us in before Labour came into power??? That Tory goverment didn't give a shit about working class people, yeah Labour had faults but come on!!!!

Worse than that, Thatcher intentionally destroyed Britsh industry under some weird idea that we concentrate on internal service industries, but where was the money to cover our imports going to come from?

Despite what the current government are saying, we are a lot stronger than they make out compared to most other major economies, they are exaggerating to manipulate money in the way they want while blaming it on the previous government.

All in all, Labour did a remarkable job considering the amount of heavy industry that had been obliterated.

Anyway, this strike is about another way of pinching money off people .... by attacking their pensions.

I was in school then, the only effect her reign had on me was the removal off my school milk.

i did the thatcher era as a module in university last year, and the research i found was that a lot of good was created such as the competitive market that allowed us tocreate more jobs and competition for lower prices for stuff like, gas, electric, telephone bills etc.

All labour have to show from the last term is over running us with immigrants making people lazy and giving shit loads of benefits to anybody who wanted them, hence the reason why we are so far in debt.

In my opinion whatever goverment is/was in charge they would be too scared to tackle the imigrant issue as they would of been called racist, the country is a joke right now!

Competitive markets creating cheap prices - you only have to look at the price of bottled water to realise that they are a myth.

In a truly competitive market all businesses are at permanent risk of going bankrupt which is a highly unstable economy and no good for anyone.

I've always seen our current immigration policies at being directed by the EEC, I vote UKIP most of the time.

We need unions, all the time I hear of employers taking extreme liberties (often illegal) with their employees, that is the main function of unions. Many companies have worked well with unions, there is nothing much better to win a contract than have a union state in the bid how supportive they will be of the work.

agreed!!!

racist to sing ba ba black sheep so now its ba ba rainbow sheep, racist to wear a poppy so even the england football team didnt wear them, racist to say christmas so now its happy holidays yet its not racist to celebrate eid, not racist to burn the st georges cross and not racist to try andtake over our country and enforce sharia law!

So what exactly are they striking for? I can understand ( to a point ) if you're disgruntled with your boss then maybe some actions are necessary, but to make it damn near impossible for other hardworking people to do their job by closing both tunnels is selfish.

LarryLaffer, I will say Merry Christmas, ba-ba black sheep etc and if I offend then I don't care, they can cover their ears if they don't like it

brilliant, just the way it should be

Their pensions are getting pratted around with after reluctantly agreeing with the previous changes to it.

I wonder how many before contributing to this thread have actually cared to comprehend what this action is for. I suspect as usual because the words Trade Unions are involved they go in to blinked vision and automatically believe it and they are wrong. I think they refrain from or can't grasp the importance of Unions, trade or otherwise. I think a little bit of historical research may help and they might understand why a union of people has been beneficial in the past and will be for the future.

It should be pointed out that when a union have a day of action they don't get paid, so they suffer hardships also. In this particular case there's going to be collateral damage, thats unfortunate but people should remember, what happens to this body of workers today and whatever its outcome will happen to you tomorrow.

I have contributed to a pension every month and then the government are taking it from me. I am on a low income and doing things properly. And what for. To be told I cant have it till I am nearly dead. If I had been out of work for all my working life the government would look after me and pay for my funeral bills. Where is the justice in that. I am being penalized for a pension that will be worth 2000 pounds (index related) a year when I retire, the age I know now 66 + (likely to change again) - will I be fit enough to enjoy the little amount I have put aside. People out there think we are entitled to the pensions as a freebee - that is not the case. We have put into these pensions even if it is only a couple of quid every month. Shouldn't we be entitled to what we put in and get it back when we most need it in life. Plus when we do retire having a private pension income we wont be entitled to other benefits cos we have tried to do the right thing by trying to look after ourselves in our twilight years. My job is physical and demanding it keeps me active. Enough is enough it is so depressing On a lighter note. I am looking forward to Christmas

Spot on Bert!

this goverment seem to think they can do what they want without any reprocushions!!!its about time the country stood up to them,i cant see why some people moan about how inconvienient its going to be for them!!!just think how inconvienient it is for the people who are striking that this goverment think they can just mess with peoples hard earnt pensions!!!good luck to the strikers i say.

Personally, I don't think this strike will have any bearing on the proposed changes to their pensions. If the Tories back down this time, they will bring in the proposals in the coming future. By the way, I bet Labour will also follow this intention and bring in changes when they are also in power. Shame on them. We signed and paid a lot out of our wages for a decent pension and the terms are now being debated - isn't this breach of contract?

Well if you want, contact Merseytravel yourself and offer your services. I hope you have engineering qualifications and skills. Also, be prepared to put in a 12 hour shift.

And Phil and Kathryn, what do you do that so brightens up the world?

i believe they dont want to pay for there own pensions,, they believe we the general public should pay for it for them when the countrys general work force carnt even afford or pay for there own pensions,, im a factory worker myself and could understand if it was a worker hard done by by a boss issue,, but this just looks like public sector greed and the union bosses on over 100k plus a year stiring up trouble because they dont like the tories,, im a labour voter myself and always have been but think the unions have picked the wrong fight this time

Have you even bothered to read up why we're striking? I guess not. I pay over £100 into my pension every month.

I think everyone should have a decent pension when they retire. Not just public sector workers. But just because you don't have one don't bitch about people that want keep theirs. Join a Union yourself, get organised and improve conditons at your own workplace. That's the only way the working-class have ever improved their lot.

You may say you're a Labour voter but by trying to drag other people down to your level you're just doing the Tories work for them.

I have a pension that I had to work for and pay for myself, its not inflation proof and I pay tax on it, so why should I have to pay into there pension out of the taxes I pay. sack the lot lets get the young trained up and into work.

Obviously you can't be bothered reading about the issues either and just want to sound off about things you don't know about. Still, in the interests of enlightenment, I'll explain some things to you.

First of all, local government workers pay into their pension funds every month. When we retire, our incomes like everyone else is taxed.
Yes, my local authority pay into my pension fund also. But so do many private sector companies into their pension funds too. What's your point?
Sack the lot them? Are you as a stupid as you sound? Sack Nurses, Paramedics, Coastguards, Immigration Officers, Police Support Staff, CSIs, Social Workers, Hospital Support Staff, Health & Safety Inspectors, Court Workers, Military Support Staff, Road Sweepers, Refuse Collectors, Librarians, Port Health Officers, Firefighters, Day Care Centre Staff, Registry Office Staff, Bus Drivers, Job Centre Staff, Pension Office Staff, Tunnel Engineers etc.?
And even if the Government did fire them all who would train up your eager young replacements?
If you can answer that with an even slightly sane answer then I'll eat my hat.

think the point is private sector company money is not public taxes,, and with the country all spent up and skint then cuts have got to be made,, nobodys saying you can not have a pension,, just dont expect us to pay for it for you

Touchstone. As you say all the job sections you quote have pensions topped up by me a tax payer, private sector pensions are paid for from profits made from producing things, they are also taxed so you can enjoy more pension. as for the sack them all means just the selfish few who are voting for the strike. by the way have you seen what is happening all around Europe who is going to subsidize you when industry shuts down.

They are lucky they can go on strike. Some of those affected by the pension changes can't!

I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference, but then I suppose it's better to try than just roll over and be screwed. I wonder if the pension changes affect the likes of MP's

I'm also taxed. Every month I pay Income Tax and National Insurance. Also, I spend money in the private sector almost every day. My spending helps generate profits and revenue for those companies so they can pay their own workers.

As I said before, if you're unhappy with your own conditions, join a Union, get organised and fight for better pay and pensions. If you do, you'll have my support. It's a disgrace that so many profitable companies have closed their pension schemes. Everybody, public and private sector workers deserve decent conditions, pensions and pay.

The country isn't skint. Don't believe the right-wing propaganda. It's just almost all the wealth is concentrated at the top.

Touchstone, I have been a union member (skilled) and have seen and worked in factories that were ruined and shut down by unions these union leaders are still in the 60s pretending to be for the poor worker while drawing pay of 190k plus. Private final salary pensions closed because they were to costly (like yours) they don't have the whole country to top it up, be thankful for what you have, there are thousands out there with no pension at all. as for the strike lets hope nobody dies because of them

Doogle, millions of the people going on strike on Wednesday are also so skilled. And so what if some aren't? Doesn't everyone deserve a decent pension and salary?

Private salary pensions closed because those at the top wanted that little bit more. And they still do. Every year they try to take ever more off us. There is a huge amount of wealth in this country and around the world. It just isn't shared about well enough.

You may believe wealth is best kept at the top. Fair enough. I don't agree with you. I think working class people, public and private, should stand together.

You keep mentioning about the people in the private sector without a pension. Do you really care about them? Or are you just jealous because public sector workers have an reasonable adequate pension? If the former, then what are you doing to bring about better pensions in the private sector?

My Bold. If that's the case, then why are they striking? Like I say, not all those who work in the Publlic Sector, whose pensions are also being messed with, have the luxury of striking. Who'd back the likes of the Emergency Services if they went on strike? There's not enough in the Armed Forces to take up the slack if the Fire Service went on all out strike. The Armed Forces can't strike, Nurses, ODP's, Dr's etc can't really strike either.

You'll notice the verb tense I use is the present, not the future. The Tories want to reduce these pensions in three main ways

1. People have to work longer
2. We have to pay a larger % into them [amounts to a 3% paycut from April]
3. The overall value will fall

Nurses can and are going on strike. Those in Unison anyway. The Royal College of Nursing will probably ballot. The F.B.U. may also ballot. I can't help that the Armed Forces can't strike. Blame the Government for that. Not ordinary working people.

I am aware of that, but as I say, they are lucky they have the option of striking. I can't see the public backing the likes of the Emergency Services striking. I was a member of the RCN many years ago when they went on strike, but I didn't because I didn't want to compromise the safety and care of my patients.

I'm not blaming you that the others can't strike, but I see it as a luxury and don't think it will serve any purpose apart from to make the public who are not affected less sympathetic to your cause because of the disruption to their lives. JMPO.

Will there not be a vote in Parliament over legislation of pensions - where is the opposition from Labour and the "anything is acceptable to stay in government" Liberals.
I think the gov and the unions and Labour all want this strike to go ahead.
The gov strategy is to divide and conquer (private v public)
the Unions to show they are not dead and buried yet.
Labour so they can have a good moan about how horrible the gov is
(although if they do get in again won't change any of the legislation or they'll make a small concession to the Unions)

It's not a luxury. Striking is often the only weapon that working people have. Remember, we lose a day's pay so it's not as if we're doing it for a laugh.
I agree with you that not everyone will be sympathetic but it's certainly not black and white. Many people will be sympathetic. The Government is already wobbling on this. Its position is not as strong as many people think.
As for causing disruption to people's lives, I think the Government cuts are already doing that, and more.

Personally I think you should enjoy your day-off/strike as you will be saving the country having to borrow the money to pay you for the day, when Brown took £10billion a year off private pensions , I didn't hear any complaints then, I didn't hear the yells and moans about the £1 trillion owing, hidden from the then goverment books by Brown, money that was for PFI and uncivil service pensions,it's seems Brown and co hadn't realised you need a current account to spend day to day and a savings account to put away pension and PFI payments money.

Live longer = work longer simples.

will people still be striking when people are living till 150?

It depresses me the ignorance on display in this thread. Many of you seem to think that "I don't have a decent pension so sod everyone else!". One more time: everyone shoul have a good pension. And yes, there is enough money to go around. Get your head out the sand and stand up for yourselves. Stop believing everything you read in the tabloids. The political apathy in this country is why we got into this mess in the first place.

The rich are never apethetic. But it seems that poor in this country seems happy as long as they have Sky Sports, X-Factor and a beer. What happened to the spirit of 1945? From the ashes of a broken almost bankrupt country we got the NHS, the Welfare State and decent, nationalised public services. Now political pygmies are leading an apathetic country into a deep bplack hole.

That's highly simplistic. The life expectancy for someone in a poor area of Glasgow, Liverpool or Newcastle is a lot lower than somewhere like leafy Surrey. It's not simples.

No ok perhaps its not as simple as all that but since the pensnsion age was set life expectancy has gone up considerably.
I also agree the country is not as bankrupt as the PR for the government is making out i also believe the pension problem does need addressing.
If I were to say you could live an extra 20 years longer than you expected to but you'd have to work a little longer what would you say? I know what I would say.

I make no claim to understand the nuances of economics but in overall terms the problem facing public sector pensions seems to be based on inadequate funds in the ‘pot’ from which pensions are paid.

I am a pensioner. I receive both a state pension and a pension from my employer of near 40 years. During my working life I paid into the national fund that goes to provide pension and I paid into my employer’s fund. My contribution to the employer’s fund was supplemented by a contribution from the employer. All fine & dandy.

Because I have links to the company pension fund organisation I know that over many years they have invested my contributions and those of colleagues very wisely, such that historically they have been able to offer a decent pension. In the years when the return on investments (interest) was good the pension fund was sufficient to be able to offer a ‘final salary’ scheme ie pension based on final salary, which by pensionable age should be quite good as salaries have increased over the years.

It happens that the global changes over the last 15 years have meant the company has far fewer employees contributing to the fund because they have HAD to cut costs/ introduce mechanisation in order to compete with competitor products made by low labour cost countries such as India, China and Indonesia. If fewer people contribute to the fund then there is less that can be paid out. Also, over the last 15 years, and especially over the last 5 years, interest rates have been such that the %interest return on the fund investments has decreased significantly. The overall effect has been no increase in my basic occupational pension over the last 6 years and an end to the final salary pension scheme. There simply is not enough money in the pot and no amount of whinging or days of action will increase the pot. Times WILL change and I look forward to that. Meanwhile I understand and have to accept that my disposable income has reduced.

In contrast, my contributions to the state pension scheme over 40 years seem to have not been invested wisely meaning again that there is a significant shortfall of funds in the pension pot. In my company I know why there is a shortfall. I have yet to hear why there is such a significant shortfall in the pot for the state pension.

I believe, but will stand to be corrected if someone can do tell me why, that the shortfall comes because
A) Too many people are buying goods made outside UK when they could (in some but not all) instances buy British. Mostly this applies to food & furniture.

B) The same pot of money SEEMS to have to also pay for “benefits” of various kinds – many genuine and highly deserving – but a heck of a lot going to folk who do not deserve. We all KNOW that the UK benefits hand-out system is the laughing stock of Europe. Sorry, but that is a disgrace.

C) The payments into the state pension fund have reduced for the same reason ie on benefits = no contribution.

To keep paying the pensions from the reduced public pension pot the UK Ltd has to borrow on the international market – Govt Securities, effectively IOUs that have to be paid back some time WITH interest. UK Ltd can't afford that or we end up like Greece.

Maybe it would have been better if, years ago, the payments to the state for eventual pension had been kept quite separate from payemnts for health and benefits. You cannot turn the clock back.

I am sure I have some of this wrong but it is my perception of events.

The issue is what can be done about it? Here I have to say do not know. What I am sure about is that industrial action is NOT going to help. What will help are people working a bit longer and so making contributions for a bit longer. Personally I would have loved to work until my present near 70 years rather than having been manoeuvred into early retirement 10 years ago (company politics) so I started my own company.

What will also help of course are increased contributions and some action to “thin out” the number of people would could work but do not work because the benefit system can often remove the work incentive.

YES, I know there are many here and elsewhere who would dearly love to work if they could find a job. Increasing unemployment is bad, very bad. SOME movement to reducing unemployment can be made by the option A) above ie buy less from outside UK. Another contribution will be for wages to reduce. Sorry, but in general in UK people have too high an expectation. A mid-20's relative in the USA gets $2.50 an hour for unskilled work in a garage. He cannot live of that of course so he is CREATING a new business for himself. $2.50 an hour is a lot less than our minimum wage which IS a deterrent to some employers. Also a significant deterrent to employers is the legislation that makes it far too difficult to dismiss that new employee "you thought would be good but who turned out a be a lemon". I know. I have been an employer post main company retirement.


Snod – runs for the Anderson shelter to wait for the fall out

Touchstone. I give up on you have you heard yourself its like something from the past, Lets bring the country down put everyone out of work but I will be alright I have my government pension they can cut the dole and use the money to top up my pension. you sound like a union rep to me your ideas and thinking go back to the communist way of thinking.do you want another 3 day week? This government is broke and if the truth was known it is very broke, we have to hold back for our young population, don't be greedy fall in line with the private sector we have given and lost also but did not have the luxury of striking.

As most of you striking people are paid for out of MY council taxes I will be deducting a full day from MY payments this month as you are in breach of contract and are failing to provide the services that I HAVE to pay for by LAW!

I hope everyone joins me on this one and deducts a whole day from your council taxes.

Unions and union people disgust me! I paid for years into unions when I was an apprentice and after I was time served but never once were they willing to listen to any complaints by the LITTLE man.
When Vauxhalls were out on strike years ago all the Union Bigwigs got their pay whilst the strikers got nothing, and a couple of well known union bigwigs live in luxury country houses with swimming pools etc.
As far as I am concerned Unions suck and are outdated and also dont bear any power anymore.

Just my opinions as we are all allowed them!!!!

PS

worked it out to £3.26

lol

The average public sector pension is £7,800 per year, and in 2010 cost the tax payer 1.8% of GDP, (just over £40bn for the same time period). A Unite sourced projection for 2060, is that figure will fall to 1.4% - even if the pensions are left as they currently stand.

The average NHS wage is slightly higher than the average outside of London private sector wage: £25,800 and £25,000 respectively. Across the whole of the public sector, the average wage is higher at approx £28,000, but currently includes all those publicly owned banks.

The NHS pension has been in surplus for the last four years. Yet that money isn't ring fenced to cover any future shortfall, instead it goes back into the Treasury.

Back in July 2010 the Government announced they where changing the index link for benefits, state pension and public sector pensions from RPI to CPI from April 2011. In terms of public sector pension this means an effective reduction of around 15%. Currently Unison and Unite are seeking a judicial review, but I don't think they'll get anywhere.

The proposed increases in pension contributions would be phased over 3 years, and not effect the lowest paid members (less than £15,000 a year). However, the plan is also to reduce the benefits of those pensions, i.e. raising of normal retirement age from 60 to 65, move to a career average pension, the need to pay more years in for the same pension (double whammy when you consider the increased contributions).

To be honest, with 12 million people with some sort of public sector pension (either paying, claiming or frozen), I can see why the Government are trying to get the whole public sector under the same pension scheme.

Personally, I don't trust this Government and I'm looking to start a SIPP to supplement my NHS pension come my projected retirement somewhere between 2041 and 2046.

Well said snodvan,/insanekitty, These unions will run you over the cliff but will still pull in wages of 200k a year after you have gone, listen to the older group we have been there, Listen there's no more money, we have been printing money to cover ourselves but this has to be paid back if we don't the pound will be worth 50p. do you really believe that my (all our)council tax should be increased at least 5% per year to pay into your pension excuse me if I say no. after working an average of 12 hours a day to pay for my reduced pension due to browns private pension raid did not hear much moaning then.

Well said!

Dongle, Insanekitty and Elizabeth. You really do come across as quislings. What have you done to improve you're own conditions and pensions. By the sounds of it, very little. The Tories and the rich must love you. You all support an economic system were the rich keep on taking and try to dry everyone else to the very bottom.

What you say about Unions, Insanekitty, has an element of truth. Some Union reps are crap to say the least. Also, many Union leaders are well overpaid. But what about the CEO, Bankers and other business leaders paid many thousand the average wage? There pensions are actually increasing. This whole debate is a smokescreen is to divide the working-classes against each other.

Touchstone, You really are a blast from the past, "keep the red flag flying high", if its strikes strikes strikes that you think will get you what you want get on with it, but what about the millions who don't have that luxury, but the argument is I should not be paying for your pension and if you can afford to go on striking you can afford to pay for your own pension it seems to me, or perhaps you could donate a days pay into my reducing non inflation proof private pension.

Well, I'm unsure why you think I have done very little to improve my conditions and pensions when basically all I have said on this thread is "what are they striking for" and "well said" in response to Insanekitty's posting. But seeing as you ask what I have done, I pay approx 12% of my pay each week into a pension plan that has been set up by my employer. My employer contributes approx 1% of my weekly wage, (per week) into that pension too. Now because I didn't start this pension until a couple of years ago there's very little in the pot at the moment, and being 49 years old there won't be a huge amount there anyway by the time I retire. Any NI contributions I made while working in UK were so little it's unlikely I'll be able to draw an old age pension. I ( and my husband)also save a portion of our pay in a regular saving account for when we're old. My husband did have what he believed to be a good pension from when he worked for a UK company back in the 80's but has recently been told that the sum he had been guaranteed to get when he retires is now only going to be 50% of that amount at best ( he can't go on strike to dispute this)
So, really in a nutshell we've saved for ourselves and hopefully we will have sufficient to live on if we get to be old ( assuming we won't want an extravagant lifestyle)
What bothers me is that too many folk think that they're entitled to money from the government.
Are they saying that you'll get nothing back that you've paid in, or are they saying you'll get less than originally stated? Please explain what it is the government are trying to take from your pension?
Also as a last question, did you too save any of your wages for yourself?

The changes to the pensions that the government have put on the table means that the (already earned) pensions of people greater than 3 years away from retirement are going to be reduced, as a double whammy, the employees are going to have to pay more contributions for a lesser amount.

imho pension funds should be ring-fenced, employers should not be allowed to dip into their employees funds to finance their profits.

Low-Contributions (whatever the amount) are always factored into pay negotiations, I had a non-contributory pension scheme, but my salary was always adjusted by 8% (or so) whenever pay negotiations took place, so although there were no apparent deductions, in practice there was - and, because it was done like that, it wasn't tax deductible and also couldn't be taken into account for other benefits.

So, as I mentioned in my post, the same has happened with my husband's (already earned) private sector pension. This was never 'put on the table' there was no discussion, just a letter through the mail. Nothing he can do, that's it.

It's significant that, despite all these attempts to unilaterally reduce working conditions (more pay to pensions is a pay reduction), work longer for people who joined up to an entirely different pension regime, and receive less pension, Members of Parliament retain all their pension rights, which are far more generous than anyone elses. They do this whilst reduces everyone elses State pension over coming years. We are not all in it together.
I support the strikes.

I don't see a problem in you supporting the strikes, but remember ,the people who have to get to work on that day, lots on lower pay than the strikers will ever be on , they're paying in taxes to pay the strikers wages, remember how many strikes we had last year with the delightful suprise that Brown doubled lower pay taxes from 10% to 20%, nil, zero, I think you should understand the words "live now pay later", because all your doing is putting the day off to another day in the future.

That is due to various factors rather than a 'voluntary' reduction in the terms of the pension. For example, your husbands pension will have been affected by Gordon Brown's 'private pension raid' in 1997. It's also likely also to have been a victim of pension "holidays" in the 90s and compounded by the stock market crash in the early 2000s.

For what it's worth, from 1st October 2012 onwards, employees will be automatically enroled onto one of several pension schemes. Private companies will also be compelled to contribute 3% to defined contribution pensions: http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/future-pension-reforms/auto-enrolment

As for the public service wanting to carry on as before, there is only so much that we can pay for. It isn't a mystical "they" who pay the piper. "They" have to pay our pensions. "They" have to do xyor z.
People need to realize that there isn't a "They". It's us! As somebody once said; "There is no such thing as society". It's a buch of individuals. Society doesn't pay for anything, we all do. If we want to keep creating fake public service positions, or maintain those already created, then we need to pay more. Question is, do we want to?

Being in the private sector and having not had any pay increase in 4 years, I'm inclined to say NO!
My pension has been hit by the markets. My employer pays 3% of my salary into my pension, I've heard that the government ( us ) pay 14% for the teachers, who are already on a whole more than I am.

Yes, times is bad. But we all need to take a hit. Just being in a union doens't exempt you from that.

I'll second that post Vanman!

And I'll third that Davey.

I think the whole country should stick together and just close the country down for the day just like the french do because they always get what they want They wouldnt tolerate our fuel prices so a day off less fuel bought less tax to pay

Agreed; They have got there priorities right` for sure

Can I just make clear that public sector workers pay tax too!

Many private sector pensions don't get a top-up (although this will change next year, when all employers be compelled to pay 3% minimum to any defined contribution pension plan). Also, unless you are a teacher in the private sector, the wage comparison is unfair.

OMG! whine whine whine.

You all wanna try doing my job, then you would have something to moan about!

I hope you ALL get sacked!

We need the unions and this strike means that the people of this country are fed up getting rip off by the Goverment.The tories and Labour and other party are bad as each up.

If the dockers whould have got the backing from the transport union back in the 90s Maybe we would not have got this strike tomorrow..

The Kingsway Tunnel will be open at 0.15am on Thursday 1st Dec so if you don't want to go home via Runcorn Bridge you could stay in the pub or a friend's until the midnight hour and then go

I travel to Northwich for work everyday and the M56 diversion for the tunnel traffic looks like it's signposted all the way to J9 with the M6, probably trying to avoid congestion through Runcorn and Warrington, long way round that though!

Difficult to imagine your job is more difficult or stressful than a nurse, firefighter, teacher, paramedic, immigration officer etc. My own job isn't especially difficult or stressful but many of those affected by the pensions changes are.

The government should pay this, the government should pay that. The government doesn't pay anything: you do, or rather if you are a worker of any description you do. Once you start from this premise then you look at things a bit differently. I'm on a public sector pension and I'm not complaining. If I want steak then I buy steak, if I want a beer then I have a beer etc. My only beef is that I'm taxed on it and when my State Pension gets increased then my tax goes up so I get nowt extra. I don't get Pension Credits, Council Tax Credits, so I get bombed for the full whack whatever I go for. I get charged at the dentist which winds me up a bit because it was my service that ruined my choppers. Overall though everything is pretty good so they are striking for nothing. I'm at the lower end of the pension scale by the way not on the fat cat, gold plated thing, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea. I've always been happy with just enough and still am.

Oliver Twist was a lefty, always asking and wanting for more.......

Not really possible to do that is it? Do you honestly think we could have one day where there were no Police, Paramedics, Firemen/women, Nurses, Doctors etc? If that happened, there would be thousands of people up in arms calling for compensation or people to be sacked.

I don't really think you can put people's lives at risk like that.

sounds like they are not thinking about other people, i still totally disagree with striking, wehrn the country is in a bad state, its not going to give people more confidence when people are going out and refusing for work. maybe it may have good intentions, but a more thought out solution may have been the better option.

Here here

Most of the people on strike aren't on gold plated pensions either. I'm certainly not. There are some overpaid, underworked senior managers in the public sector, I wont deny that. Although even that pales into relative insignificance when compared with the private sector. Maybe some of the working-class Tories on this thread might want to train their fire on the super rich who don't even pay their taxes. Just a thought!

Negotiate until you run out of room for a start off. Sewotka, who was my old union boss, has even refused to go to meetings but then again he was always trying to get us out on strike for no good reason. Bad ass.

Negotiation is fine as far as it goes. Sometimes a show of strength is a necessary last resort. As an ex-military man I thought you'd understand this. I certainly don't want to lose a days pay but needs must.

On a side not, Unilever workers, including those a Port Sunlight, are going on strike over changs to their pension scheme. So it's far from just public sector workers going out. Good luck to them too. I hope they can force Unilever into backing down.

Also Bandy, I'm glad you're a enjoying a relatively comfortable retirement. No doubt you've worked hard and deserve a comfortable life as a pensioner.
This is the ideal for everyone to be able to retire and not worry about their future. It makes for a more stable and civilised society. I just don't believe our current neo-liberal post-1979 economic model can deliver this anymore. I think we need to go back to the best parts of the 1945-1979 post-war settlement.

oooo now this debate is hotting up, i can see a bit of william beveridge's findings coming to mention!

From someone who, in another thread, was impugning other contributors' standards of education, that sentence makes no sense at all and still wouldn't with the use of a few capital letters.

Agreed on the punctuation and grammar part, but you have no idea what me and touchstone are on about, so this is why it makes no sense to you!!!

No, the reason the sentence I quoted makes no sense is that the verb "to mention" is transitive and therefore requires an object.

Fair enough, point taken.

In my previous rather long post I indicated why big companies, including Unilever, HAVE to adjust their pension system. To remain competitive the companies have HAD to indroduce technologies that employ fewer people, and fewer emplyees mean less funds going into the pot from which pensions can be paid. The only way out is larger contributions, longer working, an end to final salary pensions and more top-up by the company (most really big companies already top-up at least the same or more that will be required by future legislation).

In the vast majority of cases the companies simply do not have the means to "back down".

Snod

Well this just shows what's wrong with our global economic system. What we have is essentially a race to the bottom. I'd also be interested to know what they pay packages and pension pots of the Unilever directors are.

Maybe they should scrap company pensions and make people pay into their own schemes instead, that way there would be no bickering about who's got the bigger pension or who pays more

Good idea wench but can not see the collective going for that, there will always be an us and them, we want what they have so we will strike, they are getting too cheeky so lets sack them!

Some of you sound very bitter and jealous of others who may have more than you.Some can't even afford to pay into a pension fund and that is very sad, but there are so many issues which come into play at times like these. I must say the Union did absolutely nothing for us when many of our jobs were finishing and departments closing between 2007 and April 2010. We take the rough with the smooth. There are winners and loosers in this life and I prefare to focus on the loosers some of whom, tomorrow, will be all those patients who need to attend Clatterbridge Oncology Department for their vital daily treatment of radiotherapy. Someones mother, sister, father, child. The staff there are so dedicated ,they treat each patient with exquisite dignity and work from 7.30am to 6pm sometimes 7pm. On average they attend to one patient every 10 to 15 mins and there are about 8 radiotherapy treatment rooms. So you can see the volume of patients on a daily basis is exhausting. I wonder how they will manage to catch up with their workload. I wonder if the patients will be able to get there, they travel from far and wide as you must know.
Tomorrow there are 15,000 supporters expected t attend the rally on St. Georges Plateau, which doesn't seem very many to me. I hope you will all be there supporting your cause,if you can get there, or maybe Birkenhead Town Centre will have a hey day for Christmas shopping.
For the person who mentioned the dockers strikes. They did, constantly in the 1960's in Liverpool, to the cost of Liverpool docks collapsing. The shipping companies found it cheaper to dock elsewhere and transport by road instead of loosing, then thousands of pounds a day, at anchor, waiting to get into port.
The Greeks have strikes on a weekly basis and have done for a very long time, it's part of their culture now. It hasn't got them very far has it?
Good luck to you all, but quite often it can turn into failure rather than success like fewer jobs for fewer people, no longer will organisations be held to ransome!

For anyone interested in taking part in the marches tomorrow here's a link showing the routes in Birkenhead and Liverpool.

TUC marches in Liverpool and Birkenhead

are you taking a pitch fork, a banner, a megaphone, a billboard, or just yourself?

remember take a camera aswell for wiki viewing!

Myself and possibly a UNISON banner. Last time I went on a march Leah Fraser [ex-Tory Cllr. for Liscard] was next to me. She was, rather uncomfortably, carrying a poster saying "no privatisation of council services"!

Haha, so she has been seen in public then, ive never met her, considering she is our local candidate for Cons its very strange.

She's the prospective candidate for Wallasey Village ward at the next local elections. Wallasey ward is usually a very safe Tory seat but I suspect it will be a lot closer than usual next time. Fraser seems to have whatever the opposite of the Midas Touch is.

The Tories have done quite badly in Wallasey recently losing in New Brighton, Seacombe and Liscard wards. They'll probably lose their only seat in Leasowe next time aswell. Cllr. Ian Lewis admitted as much at a council meeting. This despite him being quite popular locally.

I think sometimes people vote for the wrong reason, just because you don't like Conservative means u have to vote Labour and Vice versa, their are other options I for one am open to UKIP at the moment!

I'm a socialist so could never vote Tory. I usually vote Labour, Green, Socialist Party and once, Lib Dem. Still, each to their own.

Boooooo, of course, thats our right to have the freedom of the right to vote and for who we want to vote for!

Touchstone.

You a socialist, I would never have guessed?

[/quote]
be interested to know what they pay packages and pension pots of the Unilever directors are.

[/quote]

Then read the annual reports. All the data is given in there. As a % of the total pension pot (given in the annual reports) it is small for all the Directors together - and remember the payments they have made INTO the pot have been huge. No, I am NOT a Director or anything like. Indeed, after 40 years there as a moderately senior person (but still lowly) in terms of responsibility ie handling budget decisions up to £1 million, my pension nearly equates to as much as that of a teacher. I do however know how hard some of the Directors & very senior people worked, how dedicated they were to the business and the staffs and I do not begrudge them what they get.

So why are they closing the tunnel's ??, has any strike in the past ever closed them ?, as far as i can recal when they went on strike in the past it was just the same old tunnel's but with no people about (apart from the one's in the cars !).

If you ask me it's a political disision to close them and nothing to do with the strike !!.

Almost certainly 'elf & safey is my guess is why the tunnels are closing and not just being left open. Probably to do with the ventilation & similar systems rather than just that there will be no toll operators.

Snod

Ventilation didn't work properly in the Birkenhead tunnel for YEARS, you could actually taste the air as you went through it.

Someone said it might be in case of an accident, well surely thats what the moles are for, and if they are a real police force, as they've claimed for years, they can't go on strike.

the trouble with england is no one sticks together if you had all listend to ENOCH POWELL and the goverment wasnt paying to keep the rest of the world i am sure you would be getting your big fat pensions but you carnt have your cake and eat it

When I was working he came to my office.

Must admit at the time I thought him sincere and was impressed by his attitude

I am a skilled private sector worker, married with 3 children, one of which is disabled. I have not had a pay increase for the past 3 years in fact last year, I and my 3 colleagues took a 25% pay cut each to keep our jobs and save our office junior from redundancy. I cannot afford to pay into a private pension nor can my husband, also a skilled private sector worker on a modest wage (far less than the pubic sector image of the private sector wage as he was made redundant in the recession and took a pay cut just to secure a job)the pay barrier between the public and private sector is rapidly becoming a myth. we are being forced to pay for the public sector strike tomorrow. where is the justice? if you want to hit the government then do so, don't hit the hardworking people already footing the biggest bill. Tomorrows strikers you have no sympathy from me for your approach, we are all being hit but you're hurting the wrong people by this strike.

Fair enough. Just don't begrudge much lower paid workers a decent retirement. And remember, without the people lower down the chain, there wouldn't be any company at all. People at ALL levels work hard so ALL deserve good pensions.

You don't just need the Tunnel Police to keep the tunnels open but also a number of engineers. There are a number of different types of Police Forces in the UK: M.O.D., Nuclear, Port etc. I think the Tunnel police have, for some reason, the right to strike unlike Merseyside Police. They do however have most of the Police powers within their own area.

will traffic wardens be on strike today

Hahaha! Probably not on the Wirral as they work for a private contractor on behalf of Wirral Council. They probably will be on strike in Liverpool though as over there they're Council employees.

Dam, I thought we might have a free for all today, park where you like

It's NSL I think. I wouldn't have thought something like that would be contracted out, if it's about a contractor making profits?

I was in Liverpool last night and completely forgot about the tunnels. Had to come home through Speke/Chester, got home at 2am.

Various groups of public sector workers will be going on strike on 30 November over planned changes to their pension schemes. What percentage of their earnings do public sector workers contribute to their final salary pension schemes? Civil servants who joined before 2002 1.5Civil servants who joined after 2002 3.5Civil servants after planned reforms 1.5 to 5.9Teachers 6.4Doctors and nurses 5 to 8.5 What private sector workers would have to contribute ifthey wanted to enjoy the same pension 37
Note. This information appears on page 14 of the latest Spectator published on 19 November 2011.