In the light of what Granny said about discussing the historical facts about religion,and her wishing there was a dedicated thread for it,I was puzzled why there wasnt one (It wasnt one of the suggested subjects mentioned in the introduction to LIFESTYLE ) and if you are allowed to post on the subject? Wanted to ask if people had seen a particular utube clip and what they thought of it? Ill wait for a reply before posting the clip incase the answer is 'no'--- the reason being to prevent virtual blood on the threads walls?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWX53mMWapg

A careful analysis of Scripture, however, clearly indicates that December 25 couldn't be the date for Christ's birth. Here are two primary reasons:
First, we know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:7-8


). Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays , Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).
Similarly, The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues "against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted" shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.
Second, Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4




). Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.
Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, "the important fact then which I have asked you to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism" (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus , 1970, p. 62).
If Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25, does the Bible indicate when He was born? The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus' birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.
Since Elizabeth (John's mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36













), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5
). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year ( The Companion Bible , 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200).
It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a child (Luke 1:8-13






). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23-24


). Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus (Luke 1:35-36


)) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.
Although it is difficult to determine the first time anyone celebrated December 25 as Christmas Day, historians are in general agreement that it was sometime during the fourth century. This is an amazingly late date. Christmas was not observed in Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, until about 300 years after Christ's death. Its origins cannot be traced back to either the teachings or practices of the earliest Christians.

Watched the full version of Zeitgeist (spirit of the age) a few years back but its loaded with inaccuracies. First of all Jesus wasnt born on 25th December.The description of Horus in the film is also speculative. Horus was the falcon god and god of the sky Whilst i agree with much in the documentary about lies and deceit the documentary itself is deceitful because it first builds a straw man about Christ being born on the 25th December then proceeds to knock it down.
In one respect the Christ in the bible was correct when its recorded he said that many false christs would arise to deceive.--- th 25th of December Christ possibly being one of them.

The full version of zeitgeist including sections on politics and other things not just religion.

I can understand people wanting to rubbish Christ because the claims he made -if true- have great consequences on us. In the book Lord, Liar, Lunatic the case is put that these are the 3 positions you can come to regarding Christ. I would add ignorance and unbelief as well.

It is recognized in the Western Churches that Christ's birth was not Dec. 25th. it's date given for celebration.
Epiphany the visit of the Magi, is commemorated on January 6th.and onwards.
Referring to the below Epiphany can be extended to Ash Wednesday, within the protestant Churches, which this year would be March 5th. This could coincide with other views on the time of the birth. The calendars were also different in those days, which could also influence the date/s

"In Christianity, the Epiphany refers to a realization that Christ is the son of God. Western churches generally celebrate the Visit of the Magi as the revelation of the Incarnation of the infant Christ, and commemorate the Feast of the Epiphany on January 6. Traditionally, Eastern churches celebrated Epiphany (or Theophany) in conjunction with Christ's baptism by John the Baptist and celebrated it on January 19; however, many have begun to adopt the Western custom of celebrating it on January 6, the twelfth day of Christmas.[13] Protestant churches often celebrate Epiphany as a season, extending from the last day of Christmas until Ash Wednesday"......(wikipedia)

There is absolutely no doubt, that a babe was born in a cattle feeding trough, the shepherds would have been smelly,vagabonds at that time and not respectable folk in cloth caps and overcoats, so bad weather would not have affected them. The news also travelled fast which must have been of great importance. .




This could be a good topic Venice, to explore other peoples findings. Nothing is complete. The bible is continually explored and has been for thousands of years, by dedicated historians from all faiths and oh what a mystery it is.
Will view your vid later.

Oh, I thought Id deleted that line with the clip. Sorry if its out of order Mark . No doubt you'll delete it if its inappropriate. I thought fish must just have made a good guess at the clip till I read my original post!
Usually, religious discussions I have seen , are short, because there are no comeback arguments to personal faith , and any amount of historical facts will not be relevant to those people.
I hadnt realized at first that this vid was one of a series, Ill have to have a blimp at the others for a rounder picture.

Have just watched the vid, and then googled Jordan Maxwell, trying to find out who this crank was.
Sorry Venice,it would appear that he is not a very popular chap and some of you may like to read the following:


Debunking Jordan Maxwell by Chris White


Chris White states:


This is a film detailing the many mistakes and outright lies of Jordan Maxwell. After months of research and checking Jordan Maxwell’s “facts” I found him to be a very deceptive and manipulative teacher. In addition to debunking many of his claims, this film looks at his motivations and associations and shows that his philosophy is exactly that of the so called New World Order, although it’s very cleverly hidden.

I used to believe everything this man said. Not anymore. Does the sun die on the cross of the zodiac? Does Christ mean “oil”? Does anoint mean “sex”? Is God merely a volcano? Does the ark of the covenant represent the feminine ability to give life? Did King Solomon exist? Is the name Solomon derived from Sol OM On? Does OM mean The Sun? Do we call turning on lights “on” because of Heliopolis? Does Solomon’s temple represent sex? Was Manna in the bible psychedelic mushrooms? Does mushroom art in the 1200 speak for Christianity? Does Judaism come from Saturn Worship? Did the Egyptians say the sun was setting because of their god Set? Does Yahweh or YHWH mean the building up and releasing of dynamic energy? And is it associated with sex? Did Jordan Maxwell get his name from Blavatsky’s “Jordanus Maximus” and why is he lying about it?

Jordan calls for a new world order. He says God communicates with us only through symbols. He says the non-human/human hybrids are here and that they have a “divine right” to rule over us and that he is smart enough to accept it. He also says that these hybrids are going to reward him for understanding their symbols. Jordan Maxwell describes his encounter with aliens. He also explains how he told these entities that he would do their will as long as they didn’t come to him in his room or “abduct” him.

Moving on:

Does anyone have any interest in the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' and the intrigue surrounding them? Some date back to as early as 150 BC.
Thought to have been written over a period of 200 yrs and hidden in caves from the advancing Roman Army.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/deadseascrolls.html

read the Richard dawkins book "the god delusion"
funny thing is....if there was no religion in the world would it be worse off???....
less wars, conflict, hatred, division, honour killings, be headings, poverty , cherry picking what part you like etc.
A lot of religions are VERY RICH
they always want MORE
A lot of animal suffering/ cruelty is caused by religions thinking animals are lower class..
theres too many around the world to take them seriously
its all meaningless....
theres a new powerful religion called "being rich , making money,being selfish, im all right jack, MANY FOLLOW THIS ONE.....ESP IN THE UK

Many will know Richard Dawkins and his attempt to shatter any ones belief in anything apart from his own, and is not thought very highly of by many scholars or academics, religious beliefs or not.

quote
5. Meaning & purpose


In the first of his Christmas Lectures, Dawkins says that:

Some of life must be devoted to living itself; some of life must be devoted to doing something worthwhile with one's life, not just to perpetuating it. [CL 1]

But this stands in complete contradiction to his other assertion that 'propagating DNA...is every living object's sole reason for living' [CLSG, p21].

4.Much of Dawkins' world-view depends on his odd claim that 'religion is a scientific theory'. I know of no professional philosopher who makes such a assertion. An attempt to justify such a contentious claim is long overdue if Dawkins' position is to be taken seriously..
Article written by Michael Poole

To the rest of your claim Svenlock, yes you are right but for no world faiths at all, can you imagine how it would really be? Human nature is what it is, and man is greedy, and barbaric etc. but this is not attributed to faith, those with any true faith do not go down the same pathway. Maybe this was the reason for the first books of the bible (the Jewish book) to be written. A guide as to how we should live our lives for our fellow human. Todays problems are mentioned in Revelations .
Surely, if we denounce the code by which we live, we have no code at all. That is what the Bible, Torah, Quran and others teach about. Jewish tradition is based on the Torah and Christians are obviously an off-shoot branch of Judaism.

..and for anyone who might think I know loads about the different faiths, you are wrong. I actually know very, very little, but my beliefs spur me to find out answers to questions that for me , need answering. The questions never stop and it is healthy to question. No one should feel inferior for wanting answers to anything. I hope someone here can answer some of my questions.

Derek DwC.

My first question( at the moment) would be:

Was Barabbas and Jesus mixed up ? Barabbas's name was Jesus Barabbas and 'Bar abba' means 'son of the father. Jesus in Hebrew was Yeshusa.
Barabbas was a terrorist trying to overthrow the Romans but Pilot saw no harm in Jesus and threw the decision to the crowds.
Pilots question:

"Thus, in a seemingly inconsequential legal decision that still quakes through the centuries, Pilate was in essence asking the Jerusalem crowd:

"Which one do you want me to release to you:
Yeshua son of the father or Yeshua son of the father,
whom his followers call Messiah?" "

Second question is : Jesus knew, all his followers at that time would more than certainly have been executed, did he go to his death as a martyr? Thus they suffered from guilt afterwards. Not that it had been pre destined
'He died that we might be saved' and 'he died for our sins'

During a few visits to the USA I have had the misfortune to have seen some of their TV - and that included suffering some of the religious guff put over (often very eloquently) by those who in my opinion had only one objective ie to extract $ from the viewers.

I have a cousin in the USA who belongs to a particular religious sect and I have seen / heard his pronouncements which similarly centre on extracting $. Nominally those $ are for "projects" which always include building new churches in countries along the Andean chain. Sure, they DO also build/ provide some health centres and the like but having seen my cousin's lifestyle I have to question what % of extracted $ actually goes to the good of others.

I was brought up/ confirmed as a Christian and member of the C of E. However, more and more I come to think that a very, very large part of what is contained in the text book (bible) is just fairy stories given a gloss of authenticity by churches of various types. Sure, I am 100% able to believe that 2000 odd years ago there was a guy called Jesus (of perfectly normal origins) who happened to be a good thinker/ teacher with a kind spirit for the common people and who gave talks offering advice on the ways to live/ behave. Yep, the authorities did not like that and he was trashed as a result. No miracles, resurrection etc, just a nice guy who cared for others

In the same way at a different date Mohammed did just the same sorts of things for folk in another part of the world.

Both of these guys have had some of their thoughts recorded and those records have in general been mangled/ misinterpreted by others over centuries - I suspect often for their own purposes.

My own inclination these days is towards Buddhism. Buddha was a normal man who was also a good thinker/ teacher and cared for the general masses. No "God" or any such claim although some of his followers regard him as god-like. It is very difficult to understand and follow Buddhism so I stick to the very basics which seem to make sense. As with the Christian and Moslem faiths there are many sub-divisions of Buddhism and I am struggling to get to grips with those. Fortunately TOLERANCE is one strong guide in Buddhism and so there is minimal agro between the various sub-divisions

Snod

One thing I do know is the definition of faith is to believe without evidence. Why waste ones life on praying before something or some one you'll never ever have proof of or meet.
I have an independent mind which questions things. A religious mind doesn't. Man is inherently evil but can be good. I don't need an old book to tell me that. Merely a story.
Fifty years ago we couldn't positively prove DNA humans connection to apes. Now we can. Catholics faith is built on guilt. Period.
People are bored of religious beliefs
The old testament is full of hatred and violence. But as usual with religion its tamed over time to appease the masses and keep them in line.
If a female denounces Christianity no one bothered but if its Islam its a death sentence.
That's got to be wrong. Religion. I don't need it. Sorry

It is interesting to read peoples ideas ,views lack of belief ,for whatever reason. That does not concern me as an individual. Everyone to their own.
We don't need to put our whole belief and understanding in miracles or classroom stories. What I do find hard to understand, is the fact that most people have an interest in Roman history, Greek history, Egyptian history, Turkish history, Ethiopian history but not the Jewish history. That itself is a huge part of all the other histories. They are all intertwined and as the Jewish race is the oldest race on the planet, why is there no interest? Very strange.
Even today archaeologists are finding cities, temples, tombs, artifacts which relate to the geographical sites in ancient biblical books.
Never mind, it's quite obvious that there is no interest in this subject.
It was worth a try Venice.

what I do believe tho is man will always reap the consequences of his lifestyle.....
eating drinking rubbish and smoking ends in early death and cancers, were now in the uk like the americans FAT AND JUST CONSUMERS
Our love and constant yearning for money and material possessions will degrade us into the savages we are
our tunnel vision of consumption of animal products thus making animals part of a huge consumption process then we moan about finding out were eating a £1 horse
were meant to feel sorry for people in wars and tsunamis yet we continue to destroy the earth and environment with our lifestyles
WE are the most destructive dangerous harmful animal on earth....period.
I have no sympathy for people floating to their death, or wars that kill between supposed neighbours, our illness, mother nature killing on mass with storms etc earthquakes, our starvation of whole countries, our back lash from over consumption of money (recession) etc etc
Its just KARMA and we deserve it.....we think theres no consequence to what we do......but there is.

Careful Sven.

The word 'Karma' has it's origin in ancient India and Hinduism. Ideas connected to reincarnation and re-birth.

Snod: Wasn't ignoring your post, but I don't know anything about Buddhism and have just googled it.
It would seem that they do have a book of scriptures and also believe in an after-life.
From what you know can you add to that? Is it a philosophy as opposed to a religion or a way of living?

Had a breakfast with a friend who is a reverend and asked your questions - sort of as I hadn't printed them.
1 He told me it was predicted in the Old Testament that Jesus would be betrayed by one of his followers and then crucified by nails (at that time the Romans crucified by tying on with rope) and that none of his bones would have been broken as was the usual thing in crucifying.
2 Several of the disciples have been executed

ps this may interest you and others, free bibles and dictionary of bible words etc
e-sword

What about Spiritualism? Philosophy or religion?

Maybe just maybe I lean towards what Buddhists believe....although I'm misanthropic So I don't respect all life....to me animals are pure and man isn't.

Granny, I am at the very, very start of trying to understand Buddhism. As such I have started by reading web links to "Buhhism for children", and some of it is very good. Much to my amazement I also found a Wirral Borough Council .pdf document that discusses a wide range of ethnic groups and religions.

www.wirral.gov.uk/downloads/2311


Put that in Google and have a read. The whole document is a bit disjointed (I guess it has been a cut & paste job) but I pulled out all the bits about Buddhism/ Thailand and put them into yet another document for my own education.

My personal take out of Buddhism is that it is not a religion in the accepted sense but is simply a way of life that has at the core an understanding that you are responsible for your own actions and that your actions will always have consequences. They can be good consequences if your actions/ motivations are good, and bad consequences if your actions/ motivations are bad. In that sense it is a philosophy I suppose. Buddhists believe that this life we lead is only one of a chain of lives. Being good in one means you can come back to a better life in the next one - and vice versa!

There are zillions of texts about Buddhism but they all stem from two (linked) sets of "Thoughts/ Teachings"

The 4 Noble Truths
1. Suffering is part of life
2. Suffering is due to selfishness
3. Suffering will cease if selfishness is retarded
4. The way to stop selfishness is to follow the 8 fold path.

"Suffering" can have many forms and many of the texts about Buddhism expand on that - with many differing opinions

The Eightfold Path
1. Accept the four noble truths.
2. Think in the right way which leads you to help others.
3. Be kind in speech, avoid boasting, gossip and lies.
4. Do what is right.
5. Earn your living in a way which is good.
6. Avoid evil thoughts and actions and work hard.
7. Learn to concentrate.
8. Be at peace in your mind.

It is difficult for anyone to object to 2. to 8. in that list, although achieving them is another matter. In Buddhism meditation is a way to help.

Those teachings originated from Prince Siddhartha Gautama in India some 400-500BC. He was a person, not a God of any sort, but he CARED about people and was a good teacher. He tried to teach a "middle way" between between the ways of sensual indulgence and severe asceticism such as were then (and often are now) the extremes of lifestyles. It is he who people refer to as Buddha - that name simply meaning "the awakened one or "the enlightened one"

There is no special ceremony to become a Buddhist. If a person believes the Buddha’s teaching to be right, he/she simply follows the 8-fold path in their life and then he/she is a Buddhist. The Buddhist tries never to harm other living things, consequently many are vegetarian and do not believe in war.

Children are expected to look after their parents in their old age, to work for the good of the family and to look after money. Buddhist monks look after each other.

Seems all ok to me and those Buddhists that I know seem to have an inner peace that I admire.


Snod

Thanks Derek. The link is very useful.
Further to your reply about the Apostles and the terrible fates they had, it has never been easy to follow which one was which. The link below which I found, gives a good 'in a nutshell' description of each, how far they travelled, punishments and their deaths. If anyone is interested.
All I can think is that each one (as they were often on their own in their travels) had such true conviction. They could have easily denounced their Lord and saved their skins but they obviously didn't.

http://www.biblepath.com/apostles.html

Trying to answer two of you here. Memory has a short!

Snod: Buddhism is sounding very appealing, the way you describe and I think all these philosophies/religions seem to stem from the same basic rules and ideas. Praying and meditation are much the same really, just a different name and doing so, does release those negative energies that play with our minds, that in turn brings the inner peace.(I think so anyway)All the guides given in these texts are for our own well being. They are also very complicated to understand and follow, (for us novices), but that is what is so fascinating.
The only thing I can't necessarily go with on the Buddhism is their belief in 'continuous' afterlives. A chain of afterlives, must mean there is a pretty hard task ahead of each. Are we up to that??Maybe that's where the expression 'no rest for the wicked' comes from.

Rude: I don't know if Spiritualism is a religion, or even when or where it began, but have just found this site, which I haven't really looked at yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/spiritualism/beliefs/beliefs_1.shtml
There might be better information somewhere. Do you call it a religion?, It obviously brings you some comfort.

Granny

In my previous post on this subject I stated the 4 Noble Truths each of which included the word "suffering". That word suffering has many interpretations as said and with a bit more reading I have come across an expansion that makes sense.

Basically, use the word ANXIETY

Thai people use the word dukka. Dukkha tends to refer to anxieties experienced in the course of living. If you set a goal and are experiencing difficulty attaining it, this can be dukkha. If you love someone and that person does not reciprocate, that may amount to dukkha. If you try and control your child and that child seeks his or her own way, this could become dukkha. Let us say, dukkha implies a gap. There is nothing wrong with goals and gaps (Buddhism has occasionally been criticized for making people lazy or lackluster; and this is simply not true). It is when a gap cannot be managed that one experiences dukkha.

The goal of Buddhism is to rid our lives of the effects of dukkha/ anxiety. Due to the nature of our physical and mental being, we are still vulnerable to “slings and arrows” of existence, but we do not have to let these things hurt us deeply. As the song says, “I get knocked down, but I get up again.”

Often the metaphor for progress in Buddhism is a path. If you are not able to attain your goal step by step you may become frustrated. Again, the gap is not the problem, it is how you perceive it and how you deal with it that matters most.

Maybe that helps.

Personally I do not have any problem accepting the idea of "re-birth", or that the re-birth may be as a similar, higher or lower life form depending on your previous life. It is not as if you remember anything about the previous life. THAT could be worrying! Buddhism (or at least some branches of it) include a period/ state between lives (called bardo in Tibetan). The teaching is that you CAN (if a real goody-goody in probably lots of lives) reach a state of nirvana where you have reached full enlightenment and where you remain with no more re-birth.

Agreed, all of that is a bit hard to follow - especially for a beginner.

Snod

You have really explained beautifully. It sounds to be a very peaceful way of life in harmony with all that surrounds us.
Obviously Buddhism has it's roots in Hinduism.

Do you get taught how to meditate, as I understand there are so many different types of meditation?

Reminds me a little of the principles of Reiki. Although a form of healing therapy rather than a religion, living by the Reiki principles is as good an approach to life as any. We should all endeavour to achieve a more balanced/harmonious way of being, preferably unimpeded by the constraints of religious dogma...




The Five Reiki Principles


BY DR.MIKAO USUI


I - Just for today, I will not be angry.


Anger at others or oneself or at the whole world, creates serious blockages in one's energy. It is the most complex inner enemy.

Reiki is an excellent tool to remove anger blockages which have accumulated in the body over years, but it cannot remove the residue of current anger which occurs daily.

Letting go of anger. brings Piece into the Mind.



II - Just for today, I will not worry.


While anger deals with past and present events, worry deals with future ones. Although worry is not always a negative phenomena, endless worries may fill one's head, and each one bores a small hole in one's body and soul. While anger requires a focused Reiki treatment to remove obstacles, worry requires the energy to be spread throughout the entire body.

Letting go of worry, brings healing into the Body.



III - Just for today, I will be grateful.


Be grateful from your hart inward. Inner intention is the important element in this principle. Simple things as thanks, forgiveness, smile, good words, gratitude can improve others life and make them happy.

Being thankful brings Joy into the Spirit.



IV - Just for today, I will do my work honestly.


Support yourself and your family respectably, without harming others. Earn a respectable living, live a life of honor.

Working Honestly brings Abundance into the Soul.



V- Just for today, I will be kind to every living thing.



Honor your parents, honor your teachers, honor your elders.

Being Kind brings Love into the Will.

Thought this might be of interest to some.

The Epic of Gilgamesh. Written between 2750 and 2500 BC and thought to be the oldest written story/poem on earth.

Gilgamesh was the fifth king of Uruk, modern day Iraq (Early Dynastic II, first dynasty of Uruk), placing his reign around 2500 BC.

Tablet XI relates to Noah and the building of an ark. Much information .
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm

Below is website with readings of 10 more tables, if you have time to. I don't know what they are about yet.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/

A bit more about their discovery.

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Article/789473

Granny, not ignoring your reply to my post either. Just thinking....

Great thread Granny x

The way I see it is if across the world we CONTINUE to be cruel to animals and negate their suffering, as Ghandi said, man is the evil and we don't need to have a pantomime figures of a good man in a white beard and a horned red faced man with a trident.
If you watch "earthlings" its about US not them, how much lack of empathy we have and humanity...
for animals the holocaust continues....mass slaughter is mans hidden shame.
If we can be like that to them, then how do we treat each other!?
We as a race have been at war with each other for various reasons/pick a reason for 95% of our existence.
Pretty stupid.
As you can tell I have a very low opinion of the human race, when you look around ultimately were obsessed by our own advancement and profit no matter what, we have an arrogant view of our selves.
When mother nature shows us we aren't, it puts us in our place.
That's why I don't "do " religion, good and evil starts and stops in each and every one of us.
All I do is apply the same rules to humans....people say "animals slaughter, its the circle of life " a classic...so I apply the same lack of empathy to wars, tsunamis, floods, death, cancers, poverty, illness, lack of care of the old etc etc
I just say "its the circle of life"

I agree with an awful lot of what you say svenlock, and I do definitely believe in Karma (where it means when you act badly, it comes back on you in some way) but I cant see where you are coming from in your last 'circle of life' paragraph. Im with you in being frustrated when people treat animal cruelty as a fact of life that should be accepted, but why would you react in a tit for tat way and be like that over humans when you are capable of such enlightened noble thoughts over animals? To me it just seems you are being just like the people you criticize , but over a different species. ALL species of animals have nasty traits including the furriest , but all IMO deserve the same respect as a species. (not necessarily as individuals )

You may say you dont have empathy with human suffering, and maybe you dont when you see it from afar, but I dont believe when it came down to it close up, you would shut your heart-- I think its just bitterness speaking because you cant change people enough to make the world a better place for other species, and that I do understand.

I see your point but animals kill each other yes (usually only what they need) but we kill EVERYTHING we can, and then create a machine to process their death and speed it up on mass....so therefore they just are de based to being part of the process itself.
Isn't that what hitler did with the jews??
As ive said on here before im a defined misanthropic , and I find "modern people" like sheep and just consumers. if you really look at it deep, mans existence is meaningless....youre born ,consume, get raped of your money, get fat old, then return to a baby and die with nothing left really except experiences .
As they say, dying is part of living.
We think were the big cheese but we have as much impact as a gnat on a cows ass.
All you can do in life is experience it and survive, just like the animals we look down on.
Not many people I meet impress me with their uniqueness or originality or depth of thinking.

Sven

I prescribe for you a big box of HAPPY PILLS
You need them

Learn to live, love, enjoy, smile, take risks, get excited and always TRY to see the better nature in your fellow man.

Our existence is FAR from meaningless. There is so much we can do even as individuals. If, as an individual, you have improved your lot and that of some others in some way, no matter how small, then - you have taken a step along the path to enlightenment. It is a long path. It can be a rough path at times and it is unlikely that you will always move in the same direction ie there will be set-backs. Smile at those and try again, and if that fails, try again.

Snod

As they say in "cloud atlas " what is an ocean but merely a collection of drops, when the actor tries to rip down his view of making a change to apathetic human kind.
im not that bad, but modern life is all about disconnection to what we do, an augmented reality that doesn't touch you.
Its the brain death of modern culture.
I just say people wake up....most want to "sleep"

Sven, I read your posts with great interest, and you have obviously formed your opinions, views and voice from observing and listening to the actions and voices of others. We all do this as it is very much a part of our lives in this modern era.
We need to hold onto an inner strength to live through these difficult times, which will not improve. All you accuse of being guilty of these actions, are not following the teachings of any religion or belief, and that is the fact.
You don't believe in religion or faith because of their actions, so in a word, they have also corrupted your thoughts too.
Although I do not like using bible quotes, the following from Mark 7 v20-23 gives us the warning of all that you mention. The religious texts are full of these teachings. They were given for our own good, which obviously haven't worked.

And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” ........

Maybe you should step back from your judgements a little and try to find some love. There is a little bit of good in everything and we should look for it. Love harms nobody, least of all yourself.

I understand your points but its like the definition of a misanthropic = "hell is other people"
im not the greatest person, no one is, im not doing anything wrong or being harmful with these views (you may say myself) I'm just very analytical and observational (im a virgo)
I sometimes vocalised my views and many agree but wont say themselves through fear of not being in the group.....that's sad, im direct , tell it like it is.
I don't believe religion purely because its totally illogical and impractical , it just sways to demand and people inherently cherry pick what they want out of it.
A lot of extreme ists use religion for very bad and evil reasons , I mean the fact we have a huge wall between people in Israel against palastine due to religion / division/ hatred /fear is just madness and stupidity.
The hatred of the orange lodge in Ireland is just the same dumb mentality.....religion.

clear your pms?

You might be surprised sven, but I actually like what you are saying. Can't necessarily agree with all you say particularly blaming religion for all the ills of the world, but it doesn't really matter if you do. I do like the fact that you say what you need to say, instead of being conditioned into not speaking out for fear of reprisals, as some are.
Politics with religion is the dangerous mix, of which many of the world leaders attempt to use.
Nobody can tell you the way to think, what to believe or how to live but creation gave each of us a purpose in life and if we can find what our own purpose is, then we can feel more comfortable with ourselves and others around us , and hopefully have more understanding.
There are some very, very good people in this world of ours, working continuously ,behind the scenes, for the benefit of others. The human race is far from being 'all bad'.

I read your link re.Spiritualism Granny.

Still un-decided whether it is a 'true' religion or a philosophy/ belief system- BUT what I do know is that I have changed as a person for embracing it- for the better (always had an interest but that has deepened much furthur now, over the last 12 months or so).

Referring just to myself, I agree with a hell of a lot that Sven (and others) post.Some members think that our posts make us 'sad' and 'jealous'- missing out on corporate trapp
ings, if you will... Not atall.

5* hotels, smoked salmon, 16oz steaks with triple fried chips mean NOTHING to me. I value people by personality not how fat their wallets are....

Rude, I have also heard Spiritualism referred to as a science.
I think, that finding something that deepens our awareness, is always good for us. As you, I always had an interest in various religious groups and their ideas. Never did anything about it until about 10 yrs ago. It has grown from there and I have an inner peace, which was never expected. It's lovely.

With a comment that I forgot to make to Sven's post, about the wall between Israel and Palestine. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The wall is 20th century and the Jews had no homeland until the 1948 when I think America decided it should be there. Britain was not in favour as it wanted to keep it's good political relations with Palestine. Israel is Zionist which is more like a political movement, a jew is a person who is a part of Judaism and the Zionists have been compared to the BNP. So yet again, troubles of political and not of truly religious origin. As I have said before, when Britain goes to war, it is because of a political decision and it is not the Christians (as this is a Christian country) who have gone to war.

id point out that, although its not lee rigbys direct fault, he was murdered as a weird very distant and removed distorted consequence of usa/uk foreign policy.
I say again, political decision consequences are never felt by the MPS but the public.
Again i'll quote Tolstoy "as long as theres slaughter houses, there will always be battlefields "
Nothing has changed in all those years, that wall is the same as the berlin wall of the 90s
Human race will always fight and divide each other, we ARE savages even now.
I hate the way the public go on about 'help the heroes' in the uk, theyre not !, were not being occupied by the germans ?!modern war is about domination and oil /money control.....soldiers are merely expendable puppets to this process.
If you get your legs blown off, Cameron and blair aint going to be loyal to you are they? they don't care...
The uk public whine about 500 deaths but who cares about the non terrorist 100,000 Iraq people men / women/ children who lie in their graves???
This is why they'll always hate us and things like lee rigby will continue.

In the light of the dreadful floods in Somerset and the most definite loss of wildlife will no doubt include badgers, rabbits, foxes, squirrels, field mice, birds, voles, fish and many more. Maybe the flood in Noah's time is not quite so fanciful any longer.

mother nature will always on a regular basis show us whos boss......her
and all our "advancement, brains , superiority ," means nothing....

Have to agree with you on that one.

Each one of us, a mere spec on this planet, completely defenceless against the natural elements and when they come with fury, they have complete control.

Does anyone believe in 'prophecy' ?

Some members may be interested in watching this programme tonight.

Bible Hunters BBC2 at 9pm 1/2 The Search for Bible Truth: The first of a two part documentary telling the stories of dedicated men and women who travelled across Egypt in the 19th and early 20th centuries looking to unearth the earliest Christian texts. Their discoveries shed new light on the origins of Christianity and the story of the Bible.

a good one was on BBC THREE years ago..."SURVIVING PROGRESS"

Definitely agree with Snod.

Add your name below if you think Sven needs a course of
'Happy Pills'

Granny

Spiritualism is probably unexplained science - i.e. not discovered or proved factual science - but probably basically 'true' in the form of non-body or speech communication and connections - like when twins both experience pain when one is injured....

I personally am a devout atheist, scientific humanist and do not have 'beliefs' - but I also believe it is not scientific to 'poo-poo' others - but I will if they start to spout purile mumbo-jumbo and tell me it's the 'truth'.

Don't expect you will Bigpete but on the off-chance you might be prepared to listen to a credible scientist this chap is, and if you have 15mins, well worth listening too. He has an excellent way of explaining and then it's up to us to get our head around it. Once you get to that point, everything is so much easier!

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewvideo.php?id=N0--_R6xThs&tid=258253

I found this on the altered dimensions site, worth a look http://altereddimensions.net/2014/1...c-egyptian-manuscript-jesus-shapeshifter

Following on from Yewgarth's post, this is an extract from The Secret Gospel of John, (Gnostic Gospel)which could indicate much the same.

" All of a sudden, while I was contemplating these things,
Behold!
The heavens opened and the whole of creation shone with a light from above,
And the world quaked!
I was afraid, yet
Behold!
A little child appeared before me in the light.
I continued looking at him as he became an old man
And then he changed again, becoming like a young man.
I didn't understand what I was seeing,
But the one likeness had several forms in the light,
And these likenesses appeared each through the other
And the vision had three forms."

""

John's secret gospel is one of the Gnostic Gospels. which the Churches do not recognise, supposedly one reason being that there can be no verification or cross reference to any of them. Two others were the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary (Magdelan)
What I find interesting is the findings of the New Testament Gopsels and others which have been retrieved.
Matthew: who is said to be one of the most gifted writers of the Apostles and after varoius missionary journeys it is thought that he was martyrd in Egypt although not certain, it could have been Parthia.
Mark (John Mark): was a support to Peter and Paul ( whilst Paul was imprisoned in Rome) until their deaths. He was the writer of the Gospel of Mark; the apostle Peter being the source of the Gospel. John Mark went to Egypt after the deaths of Peter and Paul
.
Luke :wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles. A very learned man and a physician spent time with Paul, he was Paul's medical advisor and a constant companion to Paul during his first imprisonment in Rome. We know that Luke was in Phillipi during Paul's thrid missionary journey. Peter preached to the masses in Jerusalem and this is recorded in the Acts.
John: Wrote the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelations. He went to Ephesus and is the disciple who Jesus asked to take care of his mother, lived and died peacefully in Ephesus approx.100AD. He was exciled from Ephesus to an island called Patmos where he wrote Revelations. On release from excile he returned to Ephesus He had taken Mary to Ephesus and a German nun in the 19th century had a vision of Mary's house, describing it with layout of rooms and it's location . Up to then nobody knew of it. Further investigation some 60/70yrs later found a house identical to the description and in the same location the nun had given. John must have had much contact with Mary and no doubt her story was also spoken to him. He also founded and built many churches throughout Asia. John died 68yrs after our Lord.
Peter : After being imprisoned several times in Jerusalem (because of his faith), Peter left with his wife and possibly others. It is believed that he ministered (in Babylon) to the Jewish colonists there. It is, also, believed to be his location when he wrote his first epistle (1 Peter.)
Peter eventually went to Rome. While there, it is believed that John Mark (the writer of the Gospel of Mark) served as his translator (as he preached.) There is a Church tradition which says that "Mark the disciple and interpreter of the apostle Peter wrote a short gospel at the request of the brethren at Rome, embodying what he had heard Peter tell." Thus Peter was the source of the Gospel of Mark. Peter met his death at the hand of the Romans in Nero's circus, 67AD.

Apart from many missionaries to many places by these and others; John went to Egypt, Matthew went to Ethiopia and Egypt. Paul went to Ephesus and wrote letters to the Ephesians amongst others, John went to Ephesus and died in Ephesus,
It is also said that Bartholomew carried with him a copy of the apostle Matthew's Gospel. This copy was reported to have been found at a later time and a converted stoic philosopher by the name of Pantaenus is said to have brought it to Alexandria.
Now, eventually getting to the point. Paul was an old man when he died and quite obvious that the others where no spring chickens either. The fact that their connections went on through their whole lives. The gospels were written and prior to the 3rd century AD, until Rome was open to Christianity, these texts would have been kept very much hidden, for fear of the Romans finding them and the implications surrounding that possibility.
I think (but not sure) that most of if not all, the biblical texts which have been found in archeological digs over the last 200 yrs have been found in Egypt. Most are dated around 2nd century AD. That would fall in with the death dates of the Gospel writers and if John was the last to be alive, 100AD, the 2nd century AD would have just about begun, and would coincide with the findings. Therefore is it possible that John or another were custodians of these texts as the years moved on and eventually hidden. It was
This is just the tip of an enormous amount of collated and complied information which is now available to us to search more deeply and more thoroughly than we have ever been able to do. I hope this has not come across as a ramble, but it is difficult to put together when there is so much of which, that has to be left out.
Religion is not fashionable, we know that. Some are afraid of appearing to have any interest, some don't now enough to make an assessment, some don't want to know because they don't know, some don't want to be humiliated by their friends but strangely, if anyone has noticed, topics on religion, life after death etc. ALWAYs get the most viewings, which in turn, I believe would indicate that people are searching for answers. Those who are not searching and don't believe quite often make sure their own opinions are heard. The others seem to keep quiet. How sad !
There is also another angle to these biblical texts and when, on a regular basis, we see and hear of miraculous happenings taking place all over the world (we do have to be very careful of quite a lot of them that are fake etc. mostly Americans ) but why would it be that the same miraculous happenings could not happen 2000, 3000, or 4000 yrs ago ? we can't explain them now, but all that time ago, they did record them in the best way they knew how to.

That's enough from me. Thanks for reading.

AS of now, viewings 3914. Give it 24hrs.and see how many have then viewed.

Just recently,a friend spent 5 days here on a voluntary basis. She is not a follower of any faith but found this experience to be the most peaceful, wonderful, thought provoking and refreshing time she had ever spent. Plus much more.
Just thought of others who do not know about it and may be interested.

http://nkt-kmc-manjushri.org/

Thanks for that Granny. It sounds a great place to visit. I may stick my nose in when next down in the N.Lakes. It appears similar to Samye Ling Temple, Eskdalemuir. I've been there many times and always come away struck by the overall peace and calm of the place AND everyone involved with it.

They aren't out to "convert" you at all. It matters not what religion you are (or not) Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or followers of the Mytholmroyd & Todmorden Gas Meter Appreciation Society....... all are made most welcome.

http://www.samyeling.org/

I dont think its so much about religion in its self, but more about the church, the Catholic church is rotten with money much of it collected from those ill able to afford it, then there are tales of sexual abuse by priests, the Magdalane homes etc, it doesnt paint a pretty picture, Iam not a religious person but the actual attendance at religious services does give a feeling of belonging and being a part of, in the forces it was all will attend church parade or else, we went to a small fishermans church in Portugal a very simple affair but it had that feeling of peace as you say.

Monty Python " is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour"

Your right Casper its not just a belief in God or Gods but rather the way in which that belief is held and lived out that is problematical. From the football violence could we say its a reason for no football?
I came to a faith in God many years ago from a position of youthful ignorance agnosticism. Many reasons to question it over the last few years and in a sense tried to see if an atheistic position was possible but found that more difficult even though Dawkins and other militant atheists have provided an intellectual argument.. Even if I were to strip away my particular Christian belief that has come through own personal study, practice and experience plus the varied church leaders teachings subjected to - I would still hold a core belief in God (note I say God and not Gods which is probably due to the influence of a Judeo Christian influence but God in Hebrew can also be plural!) Despite all the differences I would think the majority of people on the planet have belief in God or Gods and expressed through their different traditions cultures--that doesn't make any or all of them correct

If I had the power I would ban all religion and incarcerate anyone who preached about it.

It is evil.

That is all.

all religion is evil--

What are your motives for using the term 'evil' ?

Your very ridiculous remark runs parallel with the ideals of Hitler and now ISIS.

What you are saying is that anyone who has a belief in any faith is evil and should be got rid of, thus taking away the freedom of the individual.

Crazy attitude.

No granny, I'm not the crazy one here.

2 words.

War
Money.

That describes it well.

I have no more to say on the matter, I, unlike some will not be brainwashed with such tripe.

Personally I would really like to attend this centre. A quick look at the footer to my posts will show that I have strong leanings to the Buddhist following and general principles of how to behave and treat others. I attend the Runcorn Buddhist Temple as often as I can. That also gives a deep feeling of peace and provides me with the opportunity to meditate about friends who are seriously ill or need help generally
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wat-Phra-Singh-UK/158152780991951

Snod

Probably better you had said nothing in the first instance.
I find your words very offensive.

Call it stupid tripe if you wish but you clearly have no concept of how many of those involved in religious practices actually give to the benefit of others who are less fortunate, living in misery, starving and sick, and I will defend them to the hilt.

Don't use those who have considerable power to inflict their ways onto the masses under the name of religion as an excuse to blanket all others as evil.

You also have to realise that the word 'religious' is a very powerful word, and not many can actually call themselves religious or are absorbed into that realm, unless they practice just about every minute detail.

Having faith is different

If you don't believe, that is understandable and not to be argued but to call people evil who in fact practice peaceful,religious ethics, in a peaceful and loving way is quite alarming..

Black Friday, what an example !.....Those are the people who you should be criticizing . Those who are physically fighting over items this day, throughout the country, in an effort to buy Christmas presents. Christmas presents bought by those for others and hardly any of them believing in the religious significance behind the celebration. It would be better to cancel Christmas rather than being hypocritical, which most are, including yourself.

Snod, I particularly thought about you and Pinz,as I know he had an interest too, when I posted the link,and remembering your interest in Buddhism. I believe the voluntary days include doing jobs , working together as a community within the centre, for the benefit of all.

Love the idea of this.Thanks for sharing x

I'm not calling people evil granny I was referring to religion in general.

I do pity those that had it drilled into their brains, starts when they're knee high to a grasshopper so it does.

Now that's offensive.

It's all in the mind, you think it's real because you've been programmed that way from a child.

Tell me granny, do you believe demons exist?

Ste, I am very pleased to know you have altered your attitude to :

If I had the power I would ban all religion and incarcerate anyone who preached about it

Secondly, yet again you assume on my account that I was programmed as a child. Wrong ! I never went to church as a child and was certainly not programmed by a mother who believed not. I do in fact have a mind to enable me to think, analyse, learn and listen to the extraordinary conclusions delivered by some of the greatest philosophers of religion. Those who originally set out to discredit the bible, but find they cannot. There are few who have questioned more than I,and I just wish people were not so cruel toward those who have spiritual guidance. Why punish them with words or actions ?
Very similar to saying I think your house is shit and throwing stones at your windows.

Classify your understanding of Demons for me please Ste, there are various interpretations from different sources. At the same time, do you believe in Spiritualism, Satanism, Occultism, and Witchcraft ?

You swore! I'm very shocked you use such language granny, your supposed to set an example.

I'm not having a go, I'm just stating my feelings on the matter, you have yours and I except they are your beliefs, can you not except mine?

The reason for incarceration would be to keep the preachers from spreading/brainwashing so to speak.

It's forces into us all when we go to school granny wether we like it or not, some people on the other hand like myself chose not to listen wether mother liked it or not.

I refused to listen or be any part of it.

I don't do witchcraft, worshipping or whatever other means/cultish behaviours there are, I do however drink beer, that I do enjoy.

What do you get from your quest please mam if you may?

Did your "God" save my pet from passing away last night?
No
Did Allah?
No

There's a lot more serious things like world hunger, people in other countries with no home or clean water blah blah I could rabble on about but I've just finished work and I'm about to lock the garage.

I wish you luck in your quest as I do with the jihads and their "Allah".

Peace be with you.
I'm not having a go, like I said just stating my view, your stilly he same granny in my eyes wether or not you are religious.

This is now I See it

Religion can be anything you do out of habit. For example, some people drink religiously. Or smoke religiously. Or call their mother religiously. If that is true, then practicing a religion is nothing more than practicing habits. Some habits may make sense - like prayer. You pray to make yourself calm, like a form a meditation. Some habits may make zero sense - like worshiping statues (it's a rock?). Regardless, religion is a compilation of habits. Most of which are dictated by a group (Catholics follow the protocol of the Roman Catholic Church, for example).
Faith is a form of trust. Trust in something you can't see. (We can't see love, yet we know when we are loved and we know when we love others.)
So, where religion is a series of habits, faith is a form of trust. Some people need more religion in their lives - habits make their life run more smoothly. Some people need more faith - trust is a necessary component of the human experience, after all. I guess, when it comes down to it, the real question is what kind of belief do YOU want to have? One defined by your ability to trust? Or one defined by your habitual behavior?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...ard-dawkins_n_6231968.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

^ Just popped up my Timeline- thought it appropiate to share.

I am not at all religious but I do believe in 'life after death'. I am a Spiritualist and a Humanist.

I do not buy into Christmas, excessive consumerism and greed. Christmas for me is spending time with the family and friends that I love.

I haven't finished with you yet Ste, so don't go away.


Edd the duck, you made me quack last night with pleasure, because you have at least got an enquiring mind and tried to piece some things together for the purpose of understanding.


Ste. firstly sorry to know about your pet. Maybe you could be thankful it gave so much happiness to you.

You are the one who made the statement about incarcerating anyone who preached religion and that religion is evil.

You said;
" There's a lot more serious things like world hunger, people in other countries with no home or clean water "
I say;
As previously stated, many followers of religion go out as missionaries and pastoral care workers providing wonderful care, support, nursing of leprosy patients etc., and all the above things you mention to the needy, world wide.
So many organisations are constantly at work. That is where much of the church funds go to in support.

They constantly put themselves in jeopardy for the well being of others, and constantly come up against abuse and violence. You may not know, but many are murdered for the work they do. They are the good people and the ones I will always defend, as they are the ones who continue help when all else fails. If anyone can criticise them, shame, shame ,shame on those who do.

There are the Mercy Ships, another Christian organisation that takes medicine and doctors to perform operations to places that have no medical assistance. Those people on board are all qualified for their positions, even sailing the ship, cooks, cleaners, and they pay their own way for the purpose of these specific tasks.

http://www.mercyships.org.uk/achievements-0

What do the missionaries do worldwide. Part of your answer is here.

Between 2000 and 2007, 189 missionaries alone have been murdered . Not counting any Bishops, priest, lay preachers, pastoral workers etc. Here is the list. Gives an idea of where the danger lies for them, but they continue. We don't hear about them, only those who make the BBC headlines. The figures have gone up considerably for the last 7 years, but there is not one completely compiled list that I can find.

http://www.deseretnews.com/media/photos/0107missdeaths.pdf

This is only a tiny part of what goes on behind the scenes in the roll of the Christian Church and when people decry those who are part of a Christian Organisation, or those who work in the name of Jesus, it makes me cross. ( not meant to be a pun)

That's all, but I wouldn't be the same granny if I didn't have such strong convictions, and just for the record, I am NOT 'religious'.....simply wouldn't qualify.

And you were having a go.

Why has god let me suffer since the day i was born with Pneumonia an Meningitis? What had i done to deserve that? Since then i've been shot losing the sight in my right eye, broke my back, legs, arms and skull. I have Crohn's disease, arthritic knees, tendonitis, and the worse thing....3 x 16 mm Kidney stones! He's got a wicked sense of humour has our God.
Then he lets kids starve, be beaten, murdered, raped (sometimes by those who spread the word of god). Staunch Catholic's and Muslims, they just make it up as they go along! You can shove religion, I've got me chocky Lab, until god decides to take him in his devine wisdom!

Spot on Yewgarth. Where is this God that promises everything ???

Sorry I forgot He was having a day of when the innocent were being raped , tortured or beheaded. Silly me .

No 'deep' analysis from me but we, humans tend to focus on the negatives, our own ill- health and societies failings, for instance. There is also good, a LOT of good in this World too.

God didn't buy my a 4k tv
God didn't give me the keys to the playboy house
God makes me work
God give me man flu

Creation came about from the union of the maker and the physical World, out of the union came the natural children. The plants nurtured by the physical earth their mother. To follow were animal kind the two legged the four legged the winged those who swam and those who crawled, all dependent on plant world and mother earth for succour. Finally last in the order came human kind the most dependent and least necessary of all orders.
Aboriginal Concepts

Oh dear! This surely has to be a wind up

Come back when your brain cell has woken up!
A b o r i g i n a l C o n c e p t s
It is supposed to be thought provoking obviously lost in some quarters. It is a bit like a proverb. Humans eat smash burn ruin everything They can get their hands on.Only a human could then have the audacity to think it is a gateway to heaven and everlasting destruction.Perhaps on arrival everybody turns a new leaf and behaves as he should while on loan down here.
I have always been inspired by the Aboriginal way of life, the earth is left for the best part, as it was found.

Sorry to interrupt folks but Granny and I were having a little light banter in another thread but it got a bit off topic and this thread seems to be more appropriate. So, if it's ok I would like to continue.

Hi, granny. I have switched over to ITV as promised. Sorry that I couldn’t join you last night but it was a bit late and my cocoa beckoned.
As you are unable to provide any actual evidence regarding the existence of Christ and you are trying to shift the burden of proof over to me, I would like you check out the analogy of ‘Russell’s teapot’ (just Google it)
You seemed a bit confused about the concept of cherry picking, so allow me to explain. A lot of people who believe what they read in the bible tend to select only the good bits, such as the birth of Christ and the miracles etc. But, they conveniently appear to forget the not so nice bits. Allow me to present a couple of examples of these. ‘Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters with fear and trembling...’ (Ephesians 6:5) ‘God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you.....’ (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9). Of course the latter can be contradicted by turning the other cheek. So, cherry picking means choosing only the best. Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Such a nasty response does you no favours Dusty,and certainly adds no weight to your argument.By the way,I eat smash and I don't burn it,I think it's lovely. Punctuate my boy,punctuate.

It would appear that after accusing me now of not understanding the concept of cherry picking and calling me only 'reasonably intelligent' that you have scoured the internet for a bit of cherry picking yourself, Nickleg !

Bertram Russell by his own admission admits he should be called an agnostic but preferred to refer to himself as an atheist. Therefore, as an agnostic he must have believed in something, although obviously not a Christian God.
Anyway, to coin a phrase, his teapot doesn't hold water.

Ephesians 6:5.. Slaves be obedient etc. One verse is actually not substantial enough to get the proper meaning , so we'll do v 5-9
Do you know the slaves he was referring to Nickleg?

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Meaning: Pretty straight forward I would have thought.

Slaves played a significant part in society, there were several million of them at that time in the Roman empire. Because many slaves and owners had become Christians the early church had to deal straightforwardly with master/slave relations. Paul's message does neither condemn nor condone slavery. It tells how masters and slaves can live together in Christian households.

They had freedoms in the church which society denied them. Paul tells husbands ,parents and masters to be caring. His instructions encourage responsibility and integrity on the job and they should do their job as if Jesus is their manager. Christian employers should treat their employees with respect as people, not machines. Remember that no matter who you work for or who works for you, the one they should ultimately want to please is their father in heaven.


Thessalonians !:6-9 NIV

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you etc. etc.

Meaning: Probably accepted as Karma these days. Suffering will make people stronger (very true)and the lake of fire (also mentioned in Revelations) is referring to the place of eternal separation from God. For those who believe in God will stand before him. Wrongs will be righted, judgement will be pronounced and evil will be terminated. Those who are separated from God in eternity will not have hope of salvation.

So yes, very easy to conclude that none believers will never even consider they will stand in that place. Maybe they won't .

I will try in future. I had no idea lack of punctuation could lead to destroying something and a squashed potato being mixed up Calling a 67 year old man who had a very poor education "BOY" puts you in the same boat Mr Kettle.

I think todays teachings are a little bit different granny, do unto others as they do unto you, only do it first if you can, just thought I would lighten things up a bit granny

Granny, please JUST FOR ONCE admit that you cannot win an argument. You can gloss up all that rubbish as much as you like but you cannot prove the existence of your deity.

Casper, in reality with the way live now, we have probably headed right back to the book of Exodus. That at least means we can prophesize about what comes next

Dusty : I liked the Aboriginal Concept and it is thought provoking. You will note, that many are ridiculed for their own preference.

My answer to that is


To Nickleg, there is no argument, I have not intended to prove anything. You gave Bible ref's and I assumed you wanted some sort of explanation. The previous post on the other channel was left as 'to disprove that Jesus existed' as we can't prove a negative...remember ? So that is your box, not mine. Numpty ! Therefore you have proven nothing other than a tantrum and negative feedback.

Granny,I couldn't care less if you have an imaginary friend and just like yourself, if I too had one I would have no intentions of trying to prove he existed.

By the way your assumptions are wrong, I didn't need any sort of explanation.

I do not have motivation to pursue this discussion any further but if I was so inclined I could offer you a great many opportunities to tell how this all knowing, all loving, all forgiving celestial being allows tsunamis, holocausts, child murder and rape, plague, disease etc. etc. And, while you were at it you might be able to explain the power of prayer to the mothers who beg him to let their sick children live but end up disappointed and grief stricken. Your friend doesn't seem like someone who deservers to be worshipped, does he?

So you actually admit that he allows these things to happen ?
If you wish to know the power of prayer, try it !

Just as a matter of interest , all things were prophesised .

Luke, Daniel, Matthew and Revelations : And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven

plus other stuff..

Aw! granny. As they say " God luvs a trier"

Honestly, granny I was planning to lay this to rest but after digesting your quote I just could not resist replying.

If he exists in such a loving form he would not allow these things to happen

The power of prayer is not worth trying. Ask any grieving mother

So, because they were prophesised that makes it all ok?

If that's the best you can do I think I will lay this to rest.

Bye, granny it's been fun.

the difference is, I'm not trying to prove anything and you are !

Come on Nick, give us a smile . Not the end of the world, yet !

Ok, we'll agree to differ. About the only thing we will agree on

Nickleg your wasting your breath, they have replies for everything, none of the replies make sense or are provable, much like any other cult,

I take it you have not been christened, married or taken part in anything, in a church.
I am a non believing hypocrite repeat after me..

Dusty, there are plenty of hypocrites in every church I've ever been in

not since i realised what a load of old tosh it is,

Madge I actually agree with you, I also respect other peoples opinion when it comes to their faith, providing it does no harm to others.
I was being honest "I am a non believing hypocrite.

And they are the biggest sinners.
I wish i was a priest in that confession box. .

Hallelujah ! An 'EPIPHANY' for Snowy.

From fornication to angel wings .



Hypocrites ? Even more outside the faith groups. They're just hypocritical of different things .

Quite agree granny.
Bottom line is??? it takes all kinds to make a world.
Got my wings but the halo is missing

Hope I don't run into granny when I go south. It would be like
hell in hell.

Haha, so true snowshoes.just remember if you come up south,Allways carry a white flag just incase you do run into granny.
all in good fun.well done granny

As most people are fascinated by the signs for the so called 'End of the World', which it was never stated to be in the bible . Known as the 'Great Tribulation' and the 'End of Times' which is different, and widely accepted in the major world religions. Moving from one 'age' to another. How it will happen and what the signs are, we have been given throughout the old testament (Jewish Book pre Christ) and the New Testament ( Christ's Life).
Whatever your thoughts, don't bounce back and blame the messenger here, because as Snowshoes says, it will be 'hell in hell', and you wouldn't want to meet me on the way back either.
Please, those who are cynics, there is really no need for cynical comments about this, it is very belittling to you. As Casper says, amusing comments lighten the load, but cynicism is probably the lowest form of wit.

It is purely something I came across last night but I feel it does give an understandable approach to the subject. Dr David Reagan might not hold anything of any value for many....but THAT is YOUR personal decision.

http://www.raptureforums.com/Signs/50reasons.cfm

I've no problem with anyone not believing, and I won't force my beliefs upon anyone. I like it when they get shirty when asked if they'd rather see the 24th - 26th December as normal working days though!

Make atheists work Christmas (kidding)

Yep..back here again. Yesterday I was looking for info on Paul's voyage to Rome, and found it here.

http://www.welcometohosanna.com/PAULS_MISSIONARY_JOURNEYS/4voyage_6.html

For anyone who is interested in Paul's life and how it interlocks with the Roman history, this is an excellent site in simple, informative and very interesting reading. It's not all about 'thou shalt not' ,it's very historical information giving a view into how life was 2000 yrs ago.

I hope that any who are interested enough to read, enjoy it.

http://www.welcometohosanna.com/PAULS_MISSIONARY_JOURNEYS/0.1WhoIsPaul.html

Put this on another thread earlier, but it was moved to the jokes section. It is the Turin Shroud, which most will have heard of. Said to be the cloth Jesus was wrapped in after his death.
Follow the same as before : i.e.
On the right picture(enlarge it a bit if needed)
1) imagine a red dot on the end of the nose and stare at it for 30 seconds
2)Turn your eyes to plain surface (ceiling or blank wall)
3) Blink repeatedly and quickly

What do you see ?




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...-Shroud-may-date-from-time-of-Jesus.html

"The shroud or Turin" granny, I know you won't mind me correcting you. I am so picky gone.

No Lollipop,I don't mind you correcting me but in the link I provided from the Telegraph Newspaper, it clearly said ;


"Turin Shroud may have been created by earthquake from time of Jesus "

Who am I to argue?

Now has anyone tried it ? If so please tell me what you saw, if not please try and tell me what you see.
It is the colour of hair that interests me.

I can't believe I have only just found this very interesting thread, its taken 40 minutes to trawl through. I will state from the outset that I am a non believer but am more than happy to respect every one else's viewpoint. From what I understand if you were to remove the titles of each religion be it catholic, buddhism or whatever and simply look at their basic belief, they all look the same. Each states you are born an innocent, they then go on to teach good values and then conclude that when you die you will be reborn in one way or another. The differences seem to be how they get that message across. There will always be controversy as we look for 'proof' that one religion is better or worse than another or that lessons given in the format of a story are disproved as not being a miracle or whatever. It is not really possible, in my opinion, to read as fact the scriptures from either ancient times or modern text as they were written to help the 'story teller' make their point and captivate the audience. Using the King James Bible as an example. It was the first translation into what was modern english at the time. The story behind the creation of this Bible translation is little known and reveals an amazing interplay of faith and politics, church and state at the start of the 17th century. Its worth taking to Google to look into the story. I digress, the translating corrupted some of the original passages and some writings were missed out entirely. In essence, its not possible to read the bible and say it is a true picture whether you believe the contents or not. I would imagine the same type of editing and so altering the written history, has happened with every religion. I think the main point to all religions is the same as a descent persons perspective as right and wrong. Live right and treat others decently. If you think about rebirth, we are all made of elements, atoms and protons. When we die we decompose and return to our particulate composition which i turn is regenerated into another form. Ashes to ashes etc..and then the story starts over.

I've no problem with anyone not believing, so long as you don't start praying when a loved one is sick or seriously ill!

Now has anyone tried it ? If so please tell me what you saw, if not please try and tell me what you see.
It is the colour of hair that interests me.


Yes Granny I tried it. His hair looks dark to me. This probably isn`t the right thing to say but He looks like a Hells Angel to me when I blink!

Please try it again,Giggler and doing it with the other picture (right hand side one as you look at them) and enlarge it more. I got the same as you first time, looked as if he'd been beaten up...then I realised it was the wrong image.

Much of what you say is in my opinion correct, and I don't think that any religious belief is any better or any worse. As you say, they then go on to teach good values , those values were firstly written down in the religious texts, to be followed as way of guidance to override the pagan traditions.
Taking King James bible as an example is probably the worst in many ways. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and there are ,even now, many people who read the Hebrew bible. The translations have not really changed anything from the original texts.

The Old Testament believed to have began 10th century BC , is basically a record of history of biblical times, and extremely interesting with regard to how the tribes moved about, the directions they took,places they travelled to, the armies of 200 thousand, etc. etc. When reading the books of the Old Testament, they certainly indicate that they were WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF THE EVENTS that happened, not later. Therefore they must be true account of the times.

One example of King James bible getting the wording wrong is
Judges 4:19 And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him.
The correct translation: So she opened a skin of milk and gave him a drink and covered him.
King James Bible 2000, has in fact changed it to 'skin'
It does not detract from the original recorded event.

Scholars have made sure that the translations are as accurate as they can be and the certain discrepancies certainly do not change the content from the Hebrew bible, or the New Testament that was written in Greek.

Someone told me, that if we read three chapters of the bible per day and five on a Sunday, it would take one year to complete. That takes severe dedication !

I whole heartedly agree about the dedication! I'm no theologist nor a reader of ancient scripts but I was made to understand from various documentaries over the years that many of the writings purported to have been accurate writings of the times were actually proven to have been written over a hundred years after the supposed death of Jesus. I appreciate that some may find that offensive so please let me say that I have no thought on that one way or the other. Regardless of anyones religious fervour I would say that I believe, on the whole, that ancient scribes were intent on good and to that end I applaud them. Personally i believe in modern science and the big bang theory, not making all we survey in seven days; but i would like to think i learned a lot from my prepubescent religious schooling to live my life in a 'christian' manner and with descent values. I think that is where the value of religion lies.

The books of the New Testament were written in 1st century AD. Jesus died about 33 AD and for example, Paul died in 67AD ,John died in 98 AD, so that would be quite exact.

There was also a period of 400 years between the last book of the Old Testament and the first book of the New Testament.

The following are all texts written in the first century AD.

New Testament, which would indicate that they were first hand accounts.

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

Thanks for that Granny i will bow to your better knowledge if something you obviously hold dear and i will refrain from stepping on anyones toes. If you are happy in your belief then i am happy to coexist in the same space. Peace out.

Geemeister, it is not better knowledge it is simply understanding what has been explained to myself and continuous questioning of just about everything. We only learn by questions and answers .

Personally, I am absolutely engaged with the origins and understandings, as without understanding how can we gain anything.
Nobody is stepping on toes, and everyone has their own beliefs which is quite acceptable. I just think that rather than dismissing anything to do with the Bible, we can learn a great deal.
Yes, I believe in Jesus, and an after life as stated at times before, but I have no problem with those who don't, although I do have a problem with those who say it is all poppy cock and also with those who dismiss it all as fantasy. They are obviously not even prepared to open their hearts and consider what these historical books are all about. History, which by any accounts is an extraordinary compilation, and the scribes would have taken immense care and dedication with what to them were the most precious scriptures.

I'm going to be controversial and make sweeping statements, i know they don't count for everyone.The thing about religion for me is that most believers are people who are brainwashed from an early age, where they are caught in their formative years and have views drummed into them with the fear of hell damnation. I have more respect for those that have sought out information and developed an understanding that makes them happy in life and pending death regardless of the belief they decide to follow. A lot of christians, for example, mock the thought of the Angel Moroni visiting Joseph Smith (Church of Latter Day Saints or Mormons) yet are more than happy to believe in the angels Michael and Gabriel as if their religion is better than any one elses. To me, the various natives of the Americas or Indian Nations were and are more in tune. They respect the land they live on and resect each others religion.

You'll possibly find that Angel Moroni and Joseph Smith's account, cannot be substantiated.
Unless something can be, then the Church of England can't recognise it, even if the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a Christian restorationist.
I have not really studied the Mormon, but it would appear that what Joseph Smith related was a bit suspect with reference to the gold plates, that he couldn't find, then he found them and nobody saw them (apart from 8 in a locked room) then they were taken back again by Angel Moroni,so there were no gold plates and no cross reference. Very like the Gnostic Gospels, not recognised by the Church due to them not being substantiated.
When I say, not recognised by the Church,I think it really means that they cannot include them in their understandings, in case they are corrupt.
The bible was already compiled long ago, with the angels of Michael and Gabriel and the bible clearly states that nothing should be added or taken away from the texts. Therefore, the Church will obviously have to deal with it.

I would imagine that if the story of Moroni and the gold plates had happened around the same period as the bibles story of the stone tablets that after around two thousand years of telling and retelling that each would have been equaly substantiated. There were apparently eight witnesses to the gold and only one mans word that he heard a voice and was given two stones enscribed by a finger, I know that's a literal interpretation. But who is to say, really, whose story is more plausible. In the light of modern knowledge neither is exactly believable.

Apparently the Mormons have a unique version of the commandments, not taught in any other religion. So, with religions being based on the commandments, I imagine that one very good reason why the Mormon book cannot be accepted.

Moses and the tablets is the law of the Judaism, Islam and Christianity. How it happened we can only go on what we are told. The important things are the laws. Moses had led the Israelites out of Egypt across the Red Sea and they sited themselves at Mount Sinai. That was where Moses ( Tribe of Levi ,who were the priests) received the tablets with the commandments. The 600,000 Israelites were gathered together by an exceedingly loud trumpet call,and God spoke to all of them words of the covenant. They were frightened and moved away. Moses then went up the mount with Joshua. Now I'm not sure how long he was up there,(40 days and nights I think) but the tablets in those days were of soft clay and the words in characters would have been imprinted with a tool or even the tips of very slim leaves, like a paint brush. Left to bake in the heat until hard. Moses possibly did write the words on the tablets and then appeared to all the tribes at the base of the mount carrying the tablets, so they all saw the result. 'Gods finger' is no doubt an expression of speech, but we don't know.
Many a strange thing happens this day, which we have no explanation for. Countless worldwide accounts of the spinning sun, for example. A sun which people can look at directly without any protection for their eyes.Can that be explained ?

Joseph Smith, heard the angel, but only 8 people saw the gold plates behind locked doors. So there is a slight difference, although yes, I suppose the same could apply. Assuming it would really depend on direct evidence.

What 'modern knowledge' do you think makes both stories or accounts unbelievable ?

Modern knowledge? That's straight forward.
It is my understanding that Christians believe the following to the true: –
God is infallible
The Bible is the true word of God
These aren’t outrageous statements, and have been stated by men of the cloth for eons to make their point during sermons
Let’s take the Christian God’s greatest act, creating the world and all who live on it. The start of all this, in God’s own words: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day”. Using genealogy, we can roughly estimate the age of the earth, as stated by the Bible, to be 6500 years. The very top estimate would be close to 10,000 years, but that’s a stretch. Science has proven that the earth is closer to 4.5 billion years old. Radiometric dating has shown us this, and has remained consistent with lunar and terrestrial samples. In other words, we haven’t just tested this once in one situation, it’s been extensively tested. This isn’t a guess, or a hunch, there’s a substantial amount of evidence to back this up. And that’s the geological age of the earth. What about the creatures on the earth? We, as human beings, were created 6500 years ago, according to the Bible, starting with Adam and then Eve. The oldest discovered human fossil is approximately 1,300,000 (1.3 million) years old. That would have meant that humans lived on earth before God created either humans or the earth. In fact, depending on how much evidence you consider to be acceptable, and how you define us as a species, you could place humans at between 1.8 million and 130,000 years old. No one could sensibly claim that humans are less than 130,000 years old. There is simply too much evidence available for our inspection. Either way, much older than the Bible’s claims.

This was compelling me to answer ages ago, but I really couldn't be bothered.
It shows a complete lack of understanding of the bible. Although that in itself is not necessarily anyone's fault, it does show that those who try to dismiss it, clearly have no concept or knowledge of what it is about.
Firstly, nowhere does the bible state that the earth is 6000 yrs old.
At the time Moses wrote Genesis, it states "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day”.
Those who take everything in black and white, must realise that up to that point, there was no measure of time. 1 day could have equalled 6,000 yrs.
That was the first of the Julian calendar, which gave everything a meaning. The stars, the sun, the moon, the years.
You will note that everyone seemed to live a long time in the book of Genesis : Enoch lived 365 years before God took him (Genesis 5:22–24). Lamech lived 777 years (Genesis 5:21). Genesis 9:29 records that Noah lived 950 years. But the oldest man in the Bible, outliving all the rest, is a man named Methuselah, who lived 969 years (Genesis 5:27). From then on, the age of man became less and less as the calculation of age became more widespread and the calendar was used. We still use much the same calendar to this day, which gives us so much in relation to science, maths , astrology, nature etc. etc.
Please don't dismiss what is , by what you wish to use as myth.
Adam and Eve, were stated to be the origin of man. Same applies and although there are many theories about the Adam and Eve story, what does it matter ? It's an explanation given about human nature. My personal view was that it explained the difference between right and wrong, or good and bad,or which ever way you wish to explain it and we all still have the ability to do the right thing, or do the wrong thing. That particular point could be argued by many, as I have never really questioned it, as to my mind there is no need.

Happy Easter

Pennyworth:
Turin shroud not Christ?. Not a full shroud but a head piece John 20:7

And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

All the other gospels speak of clothes (not a cloth)


Book of Mormon: Unlike Bible,and Koran which is supported with. Archeological geographical evidence, coinage etc. The book of Mormon has places and coinage mentioned that have not been found in antiquity. The huge battle on the Hill of Cumorah? would have left many relics but none found. Also authorage is limited to the claims of one person (Smith) unlike Jewish, Christain scriptures with many authors.

Origins: Personally find it easier to believe that all we have in the natural physical world is a result of purpose and intent (which has gone wrong to some extent)than that in the beginning was nothing and nothing exploded. Explosions tend to deconstruct rather than construct.

Modern knowledge has added to biblical understanding. .Consider the bible account of the sun standing still. Given the period in history it would have been believed that the sun actually moves in the sky by observation rather than scientific measurement. The story today might be more accurate that the earth stood still--which itself would be unbelieveable because of all the associated ramifications- except with faith.

I think it strange that the arguement for religion only ever seems to come back to the christian bible and various quotes as if them being mentioned makes it true. On the fourth day god created the heavens - poppycock! How did they measure a day without the sun already there and our earth going around it?
Science won major victories against entrenched religious dogma throughout the 19th century. In the 1800s, discoveries of Neanderthal remains in Belgium, Gibraltar and Germany showed that humans were not the only hominids to occupy earth, and fossils and remains of now extinct animals and plants further demonstrated that flora and fauna evolve, live for millennia and then sometimes die off, ceding their place on the planet to better-adapted species. These discoveries lent strong support to the then emerging theory of evolution, published by Charles Darwin in 1859. And in 1851, Leon Foucault, a self-trained French physicist, proved definitively that earth rotates—rather than staying in place as the sun revolved around it—using a special pendulum whose circular motion revealed the planet’s rotation. Geological discoveries made over the same century devastated the “young earth” hypothesis. We now know that earth is billions, not thousands, of years old, as some theologians had calculated based on counting generations back to the biblical Adam. All of these discoveries defeated literal interpretations of Scripture. I repeat defeated literal interpretations. Why is the christian faith more likely to be correct than any other? Simply because the catholic church and others spread across the globe ignoring any domestic faiths and forcing their beliefs on others. Religion is the biggest cause of conflict either by blogs such as this or on a battlefields. If there was such a god why would he permit such sufferings? Surely he could speak to all types of church leader and make them all see the same beliefs? Don't get me started on so-called miracles.

Religion is just a different branch of politics, in some ways more honest, in other ways less honest than our normal political system.

The existence of god/gods is a completely separate issue to religion.

Most major established religions are highly hypocritical when you look at the money side of things, what they preach to others is most certainly not what is practised by the religious organisations.

The bible is wide open to interpretation, the translation of ancient texts created by scribes from third party sources cannot be exact. "the first day" translates to "at the start" even in modern English, with all the other variables its a wonder anything can be relied upon as being precise.

I am not against religion, its personal choice much the same as politics and even sports. If you want to be recognised as belonging to a group of like minded people, that is your choice. I have some concerns where people believe they have to accept the beliefs of others.

Science vs Religeon will always be a continuous battle because Science vs Science is a necessary battle to enable advancement. Both Heliocentrism and Diurnla Motion are still not finalised and probably never will be - there has been no absolute proof and there cannot be until the very existence of matter at all particle level, all fields and all forces have been both defined and finalised.

Science V Bible. Sorry if you don't like quotes or references, but at times they are really the only way of proof to a particular point.

https://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

Bible and science do work together, and that has been accredited by one of the recent Popes.

Bible Old Testament although used by the Christians is in fact the (Torah) Jewish Book, of which all family lines descended. 12 tribes of Israel.....
People who constantly quote the first few verses of Genesis to try to prove their point seem to fail to understand , there are quite a lot more books to be read within the Bible.

Moses wrote the first five books. The Bible has been questioned and quizzed and shredded piece by piece for a VERY long time, by philosophers, scientists, archaeologists , mathematicians, (of which philosophy is also a mathematical degree) and scholars from the highest schools of thought . So far, despite all attempts, nobody has been able to prove it to be a fake or disprove it.
Nobody can prove that the Gospels of Genesis were written by anyone particular rather than Moses, and that proves another point I would have thought. One thing is for sure, Moses was there at the 'new' beginning of taking people away from Pagan Gods, and the practice of human sacrifices. Maybe that can't be accepted by many either, but it matters not.

So for those who say the Bible is all fake, and no good and all lies, do they not see anything positive towards a new beginning that it describes ? Explaining how to live, love and enjoy their lives and to give thanks. That's mainly what it is , intertwined with the family tree and history of the Jews. Continued through Jesus as Christianity (eventually) so it was open to all with less severity and forgiveness as opposed to punishment which the Torah would seem to administer. To be given forgiveness, we have to recognise what we want to be forgiven for, which in turn releases our innermost guilt (I suppose).

God is not a man, and when people blame God for not stopping suffering, do they see the devil as a man too, he who causes the suffering ? Why not blame the devil for all the dreadful happenings ?

People who cast all their 'blame' onto God, if things don't go right for them, truly make me laugh. How can they blame God, if they come to the conclusion that there is no God, because if there was, he wouldn't let something like that happen and then they don't believe in God ? So who are they really blaming ?

It's as if they expect that everything , absolutely everything in this life to be flawless. If they do expect that, then why do they.....assuming they all think that creation was just an accident that happened anyway ?

Which brings me onto miracles. They continue to happen, as said before and the greatest miracle of all, is the conception of new life !

These points of view about time and space and particles matter not. Even if the tiniest particle collided with fresh air, where did that tiny particle come from ? They'll never be able to prove that either. They know 5% about the universe, apparently . How do they know it's 5% when they don't know how big the universe is......like eternity ? They know nothing in relation. I would like to know how they can justify the billions of dollars spent on such projects of mightiness to prove what , or disprove what ? I think those who support the vast amount of money spent on science are somewhat hypocritical in their view on the idea of hypocrisy when having notions about the money advanced to the Church. The Church organisations do in fact contribute massively to feeding and clothing those in most distress, as opposed to creating chemicals and bombs to blow them apart.

Point made previously in connection to the opening verses of Genesis : Those who take everything in black and white, must realise that up to that point, there was no measure of time. 1 day could have equalled 6,000 yrs. or even a million years or longer.

The vast amount of money spent on science is fully justified in order for life to continue.

We desperately need to colonise, we are far too susceptible to any of a number of disasters that could wipe us out, colonisation in space is the only way forward.

Yellowstone Park super-volcano is one almost unquestioned example that could wipe most of human life on the planet through climate change and obscuration of the sun.

A relatively small meteor could do the same.

Disease could easily wipe us out, especially as we are now in the DNA fiddling age - think of a potential suicide bomber who is an expert on DNA and we could be in deep trouble.

Is fatalism a religion?

It's being so cheerful that keeps you going DD !!

[quote=Pinzgauer]It's being so cheerful that keeps you going DD !! [/quote

Pinz, I am happy as The Telegraph Inn now has Trappers Hat on at £2.80 a pint!

Well, that settles it. There is a God

I can remember vowing to pack in boozing if it ever got to five bob a pint. Had to pay £3.80 in Solihull a fortnight ago, absolutely gobsmacked. Terrible thing when £2.80 seems to be cheap. Gutted fellahs, absolutely gutted.

There should be free beer for old sailors!

I you don't like it...please don't read it!




Medjugorje Messages

Right now, there are thousands of young people in Medjugorje for the annual Youth Fest!

Our Lady appeared to Mirjana Soldo today, August 2nd, 2015, and delivered the following message:

"Dear children, I, as a mother who loves her children, see how difficult the time in which you live is. I see your suffering, but you need to know that you are not alone. My Son is with you. He is everywhere. He is invisible, but you can see Him if you live Him. He is the light which illuminates your soul and gives you peace. He is the Church which you need to love and to always pray and fight for - but not only with words, instead with acts of love. My children, bring it about for everyone to come to know my Son, bring it about that He may be loved, because the truth is in my Son born of God - the Son of God. Do not waste time deliberating too much; you will distance yourselves from the truth. With a simple heart accept His word and live it. If you live His word, you will pray. If you live His word, you will love with a merciful love; you will love each other. The more that you will love, the farther away you will be from death. For those who will live the word of my Son and who will love, death will be life. Thank you."

Our Lady added, "Pray to be able to see my Son in your shepherds. Pray to be able to embrace Him in them."

Adtendite a falsis prophetis

...who is the false Prophetess to whom you refer ? Does the same apply to Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal ?

I am not Roman Catholic, but I do respect that others are and their beliefs should be acknowledged. With regard to miracles in Medjugorje, many whom have witnessed, are from different religions.

Anyway,if these messages are true , some of you at least will witness such phenomena in your lifetime . Many have already experienced phenomena which scientists (bless them all) are unable to explain. Two of the Seers have to give so many days notice to reveal some of the secrets they have received, and so they will be alive at the time. One is mid 60's now and another 50 yrs of age. We will wait and see, but maybe we should start by giving more thought to our creator.

I needed to read it to decide whether or not I liked it.

After I had read it I decided that it was nonsense, so I could not care less about it.

Yes!

There are absolutely no grounds for believing any prophet "knows" they are correct other than human gullibility.

Until someone consistently comes out with detailed statements (eg Everton FC are going to win 7-0 on 25th March 2022 in Brazil) then putting a load of words together in a mumbo jumbo fashion that can be re-interpreted after the event using hindsight, just doesn't cut it. Either they know or they don't, if they don't they are false prophets, if they do they can state it clearly and accurately - none do!

We like to be led, we like to believe in the impossible/improbable but that is just an emotion, its not reality.

Tell me why, when someone dies and Wiki members often make a post on reflection , do they often write RIP ? That could indicate that the deceased may not RIP. and there has to be something afterwards ! I always find that expression fairly naff. Considering many don't believe in an afterlife, then it's somewhat against what their personal wishes might be.

The phrase dormit in pace (English: "he sleeps in peace") was found in the catacombs of the early Christians and indicated that "they died in the peace of the Church, that is, united in Christ."

Palemoon, you don't have to care one iota about it. No loss to anyone, that's your decision.

This is the story of Jack Traynor, a Liverpool man who was incurable according to the doctors of the War Ministry. He went to Lourdes and was completely healed.
http://www.faithandfamily.org.uk/publications/jack_traynor.htm

I think theres all sorts of explanations why people appear to be healed 'miraculously'in past times (we dont hear of many these days) We didnt know then that damaged nerves could sometimes naturally recover after a long period of time for instance.

There would too have been conditions which disappeared naturally for no known reason which would have been attributed to a 'miracle' if the disappearance coincided with say a Lourdes visit. (like we still dont know yet why some cancers go into permanent remission).

I found that account a bit unconvincing and inconsistent in parts too. The man in question remarked right after his 'healing' that he knew straight away that some very special remarkable change had taken place, but then further on , seems to be querying why so many people are interested in him -almost as if was oblivious that he was 'healed'. Seemed a bit odd that.His whole demeanor just seemed underwhelmed for someone who thought a miracle of such huge proportions had happened.
However, I do have an open mind about such things -- just never been convinced .

You don't have to open your mind Venice, simply open you heart. The head bit comes later

I have witnessed a healing. Small it was but still healed.


There are many, many, many healing miracles and testimonies, happening continuously and we can find them, but others you won't hear about as many people tend not to broadcast them. It does not mean they are not happening.


To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
St. Thomas Aquinas

Ive been brought up on 'dont let your heart rule your head' , and generally I have to say it has served me well. I wouldnt have a clue how to open my heart to religion OTHer than being 'open minded' , so Im a lost cause according to your quote. lol.

Religion is the invention of the weak minded to explain that which cannot, or could not, be explained. In turn it was usurped way back, as it is now, by the evil and greed of humanity to extract from the gullible riches in the name of said religion. Look at the wealth of the Catholic Church, all of which was 'for the poor'!!! I lived in a very poor catholic household and never saw a single penny from the church.

Very sorry to know that red-devil; assuming you had a very unhappy childhood.

The closer I approach death, which I suspect will not be far away, the more I take comfort in the remnants of faith which remain with me.

Maybe a softening of the soul, Chris.

Three things that last forever. Faith, hope and love. The greatest of these is love.

1 Cor 13:13

Might be, Granny; the closer I approach death, the more open I become.

People are at various stages in life and some feel they have no belief nor need to search within or without for the spiritual or divine in life and the reason for existence.
I have always felt an inner yearning for something I knew not what.
Religion is a manifestation of a journey for some and that for them brings a harmony of body mind and soul which can also bring wilderness experiences when belief is questioned.

Nearly thirty years ago after a lifetime wondering if God exists and getting tied in knots I decided to stop doing my own thing and take a leap of faith. I asked Jesus Christ if he existed to come into my life and sort it out instead of always relying on my own strength.
Faith either works or not and despite many problems which I hand over in prayer for God to sort out if unable to rectify myself,I rarely worry and life is exciting waiting in anticipation for the next chapter.
Christians are those who have asked Him into their lives.Going to church does not make you a Christian just as going to MacDonalds does not turn you into a beefburger.
Red Devil I do hope you find your path in life just have an open mind and positive outlook.

then and now

Then, Mary had a virgin birth

now, many kids are test tube babes and women have artificial insemination

Then, Jesus said to of died and come back to life

now, dead’ woman woke up and asked ‘Where am I? link

many people on here say religion is a crock and then go on to say no such thing as an afterlife but then go on ghost hunts

I am trying hard NOT to believe there is a God ( that is a Creator of all that we see in the world and the universe)

1) "In the beginning GOD created...."

or

2) "In the beginning nothing created a big bang and from the ensuing destruction everything evolved..."

From position 1)religions spring forth with there varying degrees of nonsense

From position 2) scientists spring forth with there varying degrees of nonsense

We are all our own Gods and our own religion, it is us that chastise ourselves, it is us that forgive ourselves, it is us that praise ourselves. If others chastise, forgive or praise us it means a little but its not until it happens in our own heart that it is a success.

Some people need an external focus to help achieve this, if that helps them, so be it but to extend that external focus into being a super-being is avoidance of our own responsibilities.

There is one God and you are right , God is in all of us .. God is the spirit and the soul. How else would we have the emotions you list above ? They are not physical they are spiritual and come from energy. We are energy, the energy stays when our body dies. Our souls form an image of the person we become. Our brains allow us to operate and see into the future. e.g. you can know what your plans are for next week or maybe next year. It is an energy that is guided as are all of our emotions. None of it physical. The only physical is the human shape. We could be any shape but we have been given this beautiful form and the ability to love and feel love. That in turn creates the most beautiful energy and new life to continue the cycle. Our whole life is driven by spiritual energy from within, not physical. We are given choices in life, and paths to follow. What puts the choices in place ? Some people can't forgive themselves, and some people can never give themselves praise. We are not accidents ,we are energy, created into a perfect physical form. Therefore, there had to be a creator of origin.

Of course we are accidents, the whole of the genetic development process is created by damage, some work some don't, some become dominant, others don't.

We are nothing but a chemical engine, biology is chemical processes that pertain to life, life is a chain of chemical reactions.

We don't die because our mind stops working, we die because the chemical process is no longer working.

The criteria for life does not include a requirement for a mind because its a non-existent entity.

Well my friend, you may have been an accident, and I don't know what shape you are, but I was definitely 'created' in my mothers womb, and a more beautiful specimen you will never meet.

Human without a mind, is a cabbage !

DD " the whole of the genetic development process is created by damage,...."

Problem I have with that is when we see damage to the generic--we end up with weaker less fit and able. Take human beings--we have the fittest having to take care of those with physical deformities. This seems counter to the "evolution" idea

Help is on the way

Quote Granny
"Tell me why, when someone dies and Wiki members often make a post on reflection , do they often write RIP ? That could indicate that the deceased may not RIP. and there has to be something afterwards ! I always find that expression fairly naff."

R.I.P --Its not wishing you all the best on your demise incase theres something dodgy possibly on its way for you ! In my opinion its a reflection on the harshness of THIS life , and an assurance to a friend, aquaintance etc , that now this time on earth is over , you WILL rest in peace because nothing can now harm or bother you ever again. Daft in one way I suppose as you're not speaking to anything but I think its more to reassure ourselves.

Precisely, a cabbage is a living thing. While a cabbage doesn't have a distinct brain, it does have "thought" just on a different level to ours.

Not at all, its the damage that gives change, the change occasionally is a forward development, otherwise we would still be single cell creatures.

The human development from a single cell creature wasn't programmed into the genetics of the single cell creature, it was brought about by faults/flukes/damage occurring.

Venice you missed the primary quote , I doubt any Muslim or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist would wish for RIP on their epitaph.

DD. How much thinking can one cabbage do ?? Are you talking about 'cabbage patch kids' ?
There is as yet nothing to rival the human brain, which was 10 trillion circuits packed into an area the size of a small cabbage

Dusty, which would be better a new brain or a head transplant ? Imagine being a brain in a jar and not being able to communicate . That is so cruel. They put Germans to death for such experiments, didn't they ??

"They put Germans to death for such experiments didn't they"??
Only a token few, as I am sure you know, and their notes went to South America with the many that had assisted escape.The piece was in today's Mail.
I am guilty of RIP, I will in future just put I hope Time Team don't find you.IHTTDFY.

Just one more point to be raised about the contents of the bible.

For long enough, the bible has been trashed for various reasons. One of them being the account of the number of Jews who left Egypt. Commonly know as the 'Exodus from Egypt'.
According to the account 2.5 million came out of Egypt, which by today's standards no longer seems to be such a false figure and is accepted now as perfectly possible!
Many of todays experiences can be used to quantify passages of the bible, we should not dismiss what we don't understand. It simply makes us more ignorant than we appear to be.

Anyway,that's it from me on this subject now. Had enough, and I am still waiting for someone to explain to me that Jesus did not exist, with examples of why He didn't, that the bible is all hocus pocus, and that we don't have life after death. So far, nobody has convinced one curly hair on my head for the onward march of the non believers.

Much as Paxvobiscum said, an inner peace is present and helps us through our daily lives to cope with our problems.
For myself, I know a loving power is there, and at times it wraps around like a comfort blanket, helping us cope from one trauma to another.

If anyone wishes to knock that and call it a 'figment of imagination', carry on because without a belief in God I would not have that inner peace to cope. Instead, I and others would be pill popping on a massive scale !

Time for Coffee and cakes now.

Look at the state of the World, the number of innocent people, children and babies suffering through war, famine, poverty, bullying, crime etc etc.

"Loving" would hardly be the word to describe this ghostly super-being would it!

But its nice to have someone else to blame for all this suffering isn't it

When you find that inner peace, heaven on earth. I think Jesus did exist as flesh and bone just like the rest of us (unless you have had your Knee hip etc. done)Feeding the five thousand was achieved by showing the throngs of hoarders how to share for the betterment of all. The meek do inherit the earth six foot by four of it.You dont have to believe to be saved but don't be meek about it.
The new World order is around the corner, God will not intervene.

I know that since time began, people have invented deities, "Gods", to try to help them explain what they didn't understand, if you choose to believe in your chosen "God" rather than face reality, that is entirely your prerogative,but can anyone explain to me why an all seeing, loving , omnipotent "God" would give a child cancer? And please don't give me that hackneyed excuse that he's "testing your faith".

Final word. For your own thoughts.

View the Video.


http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/2632/figure-formed-in-cloud-during-medjugorje-mass/

Is this supposed to prove that there is a god?

Maybe some divine intervention to stop war, disease, poverty etc. might be a bit more convincing

I like this

2,700 yrs old.

Seal Impression With King Hezekiah's Name Discovered in Jerusalem

The Judean king, the biblical-era Hezekiah son of Ahaz, was a vassal of Assyria and borrowed its royal symbolism of a winged sun and ankhs.




http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/.premium-1.689594

This is a more informative link.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/seal-bearing-name-of-judean-king-found-in-jerusalem/

Who were the Philistines ? Those were the people who were mentioned in the Bible so many times, the book of fairy tales and myths !!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines


Surprise, surprise.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36759340

I look at the world and the universe the stars and the planets and think CREATION then I think CREATOR then I think MIGHTY CREATOR. Then if only "one"- I think ALMIGHTY CREATOR who I call GOD. I then wonder if ,as part of Gods creation, we can communicate with GOD. Despite all the beautiful and awesome things in the world I look at all the bad in the world and wonder what if anything went wrong. Then I understand why scholars wrote "we have all fallen short of GODS purposes if we were made according to GODS design. I am then faced with moral conscious questions and decisions of what is right and wrong.

In one sense we don't need "religion" then on the other hand "religion" can just be the gathering of people with like minds---similar to politics

An excellent way of putting it Fish.