wirral forums

New Trains for Merseyrail

Posted By: mburdett555

New Trains for Merseyrail - 14th Jan 2020 5:52pm

Merseyrail merseytravel are replacing their existing ageing trains with new trains.

The first of the new fleet, called the "class 777" was delivered into Folkestone through the channel tunnel last Thursday from it's journey from Switzerland where it was built.

The new trains are expected to come into service at some point later this year.

The old class 507 / 508 trains , I assume, will be scrapped like most ageing stock.

The first of the 777s will be delivered to Kirkdale Wednesday into Thursday early am.


If anyone's interested in staying up Thursday midnight, the timings are below.
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train?c=R03576&d=15/01/2020
Posted By: Norton

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 15th Jan 2020 2:20pm

You can see it being hauled through Stafford, as posted bt Merseytravel, at https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=772713853225018
Posted By: mburdett555

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 15th Jan 2020 7:48pm

Lovely video of it at Stafford , thanks for sharing. I understand around 50 will be delivered over the coming months.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 15th Jan 2020 10:10pm

Was reading the accident investigation into the derailment on the Liverpool Loop many years ago. It will be interesting how the new trains cope with it because at the time they said there were no trains that were suitable for that section of line.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 16th Jan 2020 9:54am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Was reading the accident investigation into the derailment on the Liverpool Loop many years ago. It will be interesting how the new trains cope with it because at the time they said there were no trains that were suitable for that section of line.


Just found it, interesting reading about the level of neglect

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/derailment-near-liverpool-central-underground-station
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 16th Jan 2020 10:55am

Merseyrail have stated that the new trains will still squeal .....

Quote
there is still expected to be some noise from the trains wheels due to the tight turns that trains need to run around throughout the Liverpool Loop.


That report doesn't really emphasise the fact that the design of the Liverpool Loop was wrong and that was the prime cause of the derailment. The loop was designed knowing what trains were going to be used. With them tightening up rails on the loop the squealing is worse than ever, you don't get anything like this on the modern London Tube system, I find it an embarrassment to Merseyside when visitors hear it..
Posted By: AR_One

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 16th Jan 2020 11:14am

Bit of a geeky question - if a Merseyrail train is needed to swap from the Wirral line to the Northern line do they need to go the long way round via the national network (being towed too a guess) or is there a connector tunnel left behind when the loop was built?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 16th Jan 2020 12:41pm

Originally Posted by AR_One
Bit of a geeky question - if a Merseyrail train is needed to swap from the Wirral line to the Northern line do they need to go the long way round via the national network (being towed too a guess) or is there a connector tunnel left behind when the loop was built?


There are interconnections between the Wirral Line and Northern line at both Liverpool Central and Moorfields.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 12:57am



Diesel ? I thought diesel trains were to be phased out. Must have excess stock in Europe they want to get rid of. Does the rolling stock on Northern line belong to Arriva (German) ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 2:26am

Electric, third rail but with an option to have pantographs fitted to operate from overhead. They are based on a standard unit but with considerable design changes for Merseyrail. They can also operate from battery which gives three options for electrifying the Helsby and Preston lines.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 9:53am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Merseyrail have stated that the new trains will still squeal .....

Quote
there is still expected to be some noise from the trains wheels due to the tight turns that trains need to run around throughout the Liverpool Loop.


That doesn't explain why the trains still squeal very bad leaving Moorfields on the Northern line to Sandhills. That track is dead straight.
Posted By: MisterSmiff

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 6:04pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
That doesn't explain why the trains still squeal very bad leaving Moorfields on the Northern line to Sandhills. That track is dead straight.


It also has a very steep gradient (1:29), so the squealing is most likely caused by wheel slippage from the trains struggling to get up there - they do give it some beans because the track goes from underground to viaduct in such a short space. This stretch might be spared the noise if the new trains can accelerate anything like those new ones on the City Line.
Posted By: mburdett555

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 9:17pm

New 777 units are expected to be delivered every fortnight.

Originally Posted by granny


Diesel ? I thought diesel trains were to be phased out. Must have excess stock in Europe they want to get rid of. Does the rolling stock on Northern line belong to Arriva (German) ?

Diesel locomotives haul the train to Kirkdale, modern diesel locomotives like that seen In the video have low emissions. Uk drivers aren't trained on the new trains until after it arrives at kirkdale and it undergoes testing on the merseyrail network. So that's why it's dragged by a diesel train because of unfamiliarity of the train with drivers, and because there aren't sufficient duel power locomotives that have both overhead electrical and third rail power collection, and some parts of the network aren't electrified at all. The diesel locomotives seen in the video are the most populous diesel in the UK and seen widely
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 17th Jan 2020 10:04pm

What shite is this?
Squealng is the result of too tight turns for the bogies.
Either you reduce the wheelbase or you make the turns less tight!
Someone deserves a massive boot up the arse if the bloody trains still squeal!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 18th Jan 2020 5:36pm

Originally Posted by granny
Does the rolling stock on Northern line belong to Arriva (German) ?

The Merseyrail stock has been and will be owned and maintained by Angel Trains Limited who are owned mostly by foreign consortiums and foreign pension schemes. https://weownit.org.uk/company/angel-trains
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 18th Jan 2020 6:26pm

You stop squealing by reducing the wheelbase - the distance between the two axles -on the bogies. If remember rightly, the loop line curves were designed with new rolling stock which had shorter wheelbases but shortly before they were delivered, the order was diverted to the London Underground! Liverpool got refurbished 508s

The new trains should surely be designed with shorter wheelbases, If no, I'd like to know why not!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 18th Jan 2020 8:47pm

The problem is also how much angle the bogies can turn, trains just aren't supposed to be on long bends with a 210m radius. Shorter stock would help reduce the amount of steer required. To improve stability and vibration the bogeys have to have a centralising force and can't be allowed to free-steer.

The RAIB in 2006 was not able to identify any trains that would cope with the loop significantly better than the 508s
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 1:43pm

What about 2020?

It is certainly possible to do it. It should have been item 1 in the requirements specification included with the tendering information.

I believe the carriages are shorter, maybe that will help

It's hard to see, but looking at the video in Stafford, you can get a glimpse of the bogies and they DO look a bit shorter!
Posted By: Norton

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 5:00pm

To quote Merseyrail about the new trains ...

"They will be a real transformation – state-of-the-art, safe, faster and comfortable and will be able to carry more people, more quickly, supporting the economic growth of the City Region.

The trains will be easier to get on and off, as we introduce unassisted access across the entirety of the new fleet. Journeys will be quicker, with up to nine minutes off the journey between Hunts Cross and Southport. The trains will be more reliable, easier to keep clean and will have the latest technology such as intelligent air conditioning.

There will be more space for disabled passengers, bikes, pushchairs and luggage and the train will be bright and open with no doors separating carriages. The trains will be slightly longer and made up of four carriages, rather than three and slightly more seats than now. "

Ok, who spotted the four carriages in the video? Well, there are four slightly shorter carriages - but if you were counting doors, then note that the end carriages only have one pair of doors per side, not two.

If you went to see the mock-up last year, then you would have noticed that the carriage floor was lower in the centre. To me, on the mock-up, the floor seemed to ramp up to clear the bogies at each end, but the publicity pictures don't seem to show that. And as we all know, the platforms were raised to make up the height difference. Well, other countries manage.

I've not seen any info on the bogies and motors, so far and I don't know how they measure a wheelbase when you have four axles. There's the wheelbase of the two axles on each of the bogies, and then there is the distance between the pivot points on each carriage, and I suppose the distance between the end bogie of one carriage to the next could be a factor, but it all adds up. I do know that the earlier 502's & 503's, together with the outgoing 507's & 508's that replaced them, all have 36" diameter steel tyres on their wheels. Naturally, it's the flange of the wheel against the inside of the rail that causes the squealing.

If I remember correctly, the 502's & 503's were using the 'Loop & Link' line before the 507's & 508's were delivered. Again, if I remember correctly, there were two problems. The old trains had difficulty getting up the incline from Moorfields going north and emerging from under Leeds St, which was reportedly one of the steepest inclines. The second problem was the squealing on the Loop Line, which seemed worse with the newer trains.

The strange thing is, squealing occurs at other places - even on straight sections that were designed and built for steam trains to operate on, and they had much larger wheels.
Need an example? Stand on Park Station platform and wait for the train from Liverpool. It squeals as it arrives. The track is virtually straight and flat and even the inside edges of the tracks have been greased!

I think there's more to this than just a 210m radius.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 6:23pm

The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.

Yes, you are correct Norton the 502/503 stayed in operation for some years after the Liverpool Loop was built. You are also correct on the gradient 1:29, anything classed steeper than 1:75 is classed as extraordinary steep, no main line railways are anywhere near as steep.

Some of the squealing on the 508s may be due to bushes which wear much faster than most trains, the service interval is markedly short and are frequently found to be worn out.

The last time I went on the London Tube the trains were virtually silent from inside, Merseyrail is an embarrassment in this day and age.
Posted By: jimbob

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 7:04pm

Have you taken into consideration the tight curves on the underground loop line which means the rails themselves are been worn out quicker on the loop than on the rest of the underground section
Posted By: jimbob

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 7:07pm

added to the loop section of rails wearing faster, also the flange edge of the wheel on the bogies al well.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 19th Jan 2020 10:05pm

They used to use a different type of rail on the loop.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 20th Jan 2020 10:20am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.


There may also be an issue with signaling:

https://lbndaily.co.uk/merseytravel-rejects-claim-delays-roll-new-460m-train-fleet/
Posted By: Norton

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 20th Jan 2020 1:23pm

As I said before, the end carriages only have one pair of passenger doors per side. They no longer have doors only a few rows of seats back from the drivers cab. Therefore you will still have six pairs of passenger doors per side opening out in roughly the same platform space as before. I imagine the '3 Car Stop' and the '6 Car Stop' platform signs will need to be changed.
Posted By: mburdett555

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 11th May 2020 7:33pm

Apologies for the bump, but unit 777004 (the second of the new trains to be delivered) SHOULD be delivered to Kirkdale depot in the early hours of Thursday morning

Timings: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=H01440&d=13/05/2020

It does unfortunately stay at Crewe sidings for most of the day, running under the cover of darkness same as before, as seen in the timetable.

It's not in England yet but it should arrive through the channel tunnel tomorrow (Tuesday).
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 12th May 2020 12:58pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The new trains are longer because of four carriages but there lies another problem, they are too long for some stations! Presumably not all the doors will open at some stations, if you want to get off you will have to make sure you are not at the wrong door.


There may also be an issue with signaling:

https://lbndaily.co.uk/merseytravel-rejects-claim-delays-roll-new-460m-train-fleet/


Redaing through this, it looks like the issue is with the eight car setup and not the 4 car
Posted By: mburdett555

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 12th May 2020 4:01pm

Originally Posted by mburdett555
Apologies for the bump, but unit 777004 (the second of the new trains to be delivered) SHOULD be delivered to Kirkdale depot in the early hours of Thursday morning

Timings: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020

It does unfortunately stay at Crewe sidings for most of the day, running under the cover of darkness same as before, as seen in the timetable.

It's not in England yet but it should arrive through the channel tunnel tomorrow (Tuesday).


A Revised times link below as the one from yesterday in my post has been invalidated by a newer schedule.
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 12th May 2020 4:22pm

Originally Posted by mburdett555
Originally Posted by mburdett555


A Revised times link below as the one from yesterday in my post has been invalidated by a newer schedule.
https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=R02276&d=13/05/2020


The 2 links exactly the same Matt
Posted By: mburdett555

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 20th May 2020 6:52am

Third unit ON ITS WAY today, train number 777007.
I understand some of them have been undergoing testing on the network under the cover of darkness. I don't have any further information on that
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: New Trains for Merseyrail - 29th Jun 2020 9:28am

Vide of new train stopping at Hightown last night:

https://www.facebook.com/HightownVillageMersey/videos/359984271644369/
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