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An interesting picture

Posted By: chriskay

An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 10:23am

This fine aerial photo was used as the frontispiece of the book "Outline plan for the County Borough of Birkenhead". This was commissioned by the Council and published in 1947. More of this book in a separate post.
There are many features in this photo which only the oldest of codgers will recognise; for instance, Town station in the bottom left corner. The tunnel entrance looks complete, but appears to have some curved seating at the left in preparation for the opening.
My question is: what's missing from the picture?

I know I've posted this before, but years ago. I'd ask any of the old codgers who remember it, not to give the answer; give the youngsters a chance.

Attached picture P1000251.jpg
Posted By: OxtonHill

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 11:32am

Used to Enjoy the History forum, reason for joining. But now it seems you need to be a Wiki-Plus member to see attachments & pictures... thumbsdown

Admin Note : This is to protect the work and content of our members whom have contributed so much to the history forum. The work from our members has been taken and renamed and no credit given. Your membership subscription also goes towards keeping our forums online.
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 11:38am

Originally Posted by OxtonHill
Used to Enjoy the History forum, reason for joining. But now it seems you need to be a Wiki-Plus member to see attachments & pictures... thumbsdown


Yes, sadly, that's the case but 15 a year isn't much to pay to help keep the site viable.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 6:44pm

I looks like there is no Pacific rd ventilation shaft
You can see the entrance to Morpeth dock which is the location of the shaft
Looking at the picture it is quit clear what is no longer there today
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 8:05pm

Originally Posted by mikeeb
I looks like there is no Pacific rd ventilation shaft
You can see the entrance to Morpeth dock which is the location of the shaft
Looking at the picture it is quit clear what is no longer there today
Well done, fellow youngster laugh
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 9:30pm

Originally Posted by mikeeb
I looks like there is no Pacific rd ventilation shaft
You can see the entrance to Morpeth dock which is the location of the shaft
Looking at the picture it is quit clear what is no longer there today


Well spotted. You might want to revise that last sentence; the whole point is that it is there today. wink
Although it's at the bottom of Pacific Rd., it's normally called the Woodside shaft.
If you enlarge the picture you can see what looks like a crane jib on the site; maybe they've just started construction.
This is an example of the last minute panic when it was realised that more ventilation, at a cost of over an extra 2 million, was needed.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: An interesting picture - 8th Aug 2016 9:39pm

We know where and what you were referring too, Mikeeb smile thumbsup
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 9:12am

Originally Posted by OxtonHill
Used to Enjoy the History forum, reason for joining. But now it seems you need to be a Wiki-Plus member to see attachments & pictures... thumbsdown


You might find said picture here:

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/nostalgia/amazing-historic-pictures-taken-above-7278953
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 12:53pm

Originally Posted by RUDEBOX
Well done, fellow youngster laugh


I haven't been called that in a long time grin
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 1:00pm

Originally Posted by chriskay
This is an example of the last minute panic when it was realised that more ventilation, at a cost of over an extra 2 million, was needed.


When was that picture taken?
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 2:55pm

Originally Posted by mikeeb
Originally Posted by chriskay
This is an example of the last minute panic when it was realised that more ventilation, at a cost of over an extra 2 million, was needed.


When was that picture taken?


I don't know. I've no idea how long it took to build the Woodside ventilation shaft, but as far as I know, the tunnel wasn't opened before it was functioning. It's odd that seating appears to have been installed at the entrance; I wouldn't have expected that unless opening was to be soon after.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 4:21pm

That picture appears to be 1934
Here it is from Britain from above, titled: Preparations for the opening of the Queensway Tunnel, Hamilton Square and environs, Birkenhead, 1934
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw045191
If you zoom in on the Woodside shaft location you can clearly make out a crane
Maybe the main shaft was not needed based on 1934 traffic levels
As the estimated traffic built up over years the shaft would be finished
I don't know
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 4:48pm

Well found: I'd looked on Britain from Above but not found it. According to the annotation, the picture was taken in July 1934 and the tunnel was opened on 18 July, so it was opened before the Woodside shaft was built, as you suggest.
I have the name of a contact in Merseytravel who shoud be able to give more info. but she's away until 22 nd. of August.
Another question arises from the picture; why the big loop from the entrance, via Sidney St., to the Woodside shaft?
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 4:58pm

Here is another one from July 1934 over the Liverpool shafts
You can see North John st and New Quay shafts completed but Georges dock shaft, although well underway and further along than the Woodside shaft, it is not complete and a lot of work still needed before it is operational
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw045194
This afterthought of more ventilation seems to have not affected the opening of the tunnel
Again I don't know, just guessing

Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 5:15pm

In the last pic. you can see the tram circles between the Three Graces and the pier head, also an Overhead train, just left of the Liver Building.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 5:27pm

You can even read the advertisements on it. Walkers Imperial Stout is clear and to the right of the 3 graces on the overhead, Walkers Scotch SELA Whiskey
Here is another one of Georges Dock shaft from July 1934
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw045195
Posted By: locomotive

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 7:23pm

Don't you think that 15 to look at the pictures on the History site is a bit much, with 12000 members 5 per member would probably be better and achieve more money. Rather than a few people paying 15.
Posted By: Snodvan

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 8:44pm

"Outline plan for the County Borough of Birkenhead". This was commissioned by the Council and published in 1947

I have the book. Very interesting it is

Snod
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 10:36pm

Originally Posted by locomotive
Don't you think that 15 to look at the pictures on the History site is a bit much, with 12000 members 5 per member would probably be better and achieve more money. Rather than a few people paying 15.


Well, there may be 12,000 people who have signed up over the years but I doubt there are more than a couple of hundred active members now. Don't forget, it's not just the History section, pictures on other sections of the site will also be restricted.
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 9th Aug 2016 10:38pm

Originally Posted by Snodvan
"Outline plan for the County Borough of Birkenhead". This was commissioned by the Council and published in 1947

I have the book. Very interesting it is

Snod


Yes, I too have a mint copy, still in its slip case. I'm proposing to post a few excerpts from it, probably tomorrow in a new thread.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 7:09am

Originally Posted by chriskay
Originally Posted by Snodvan
"Outline plan for the County Borough of Birkenhead". This was commissioned by the Council and published in 1947

I have the book. Very interesting it is

Snod


Yes, I too have a mint copy, still in its slip case. I'm proposing to post a few excerpts from it, probably tomorrow in a new thread.


Please do Chris
I look forward to it wink
Posted By: OxtonHill

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 7:10am

Originally Posted by locomotive
Don't you think that 15 to look at the pictures on the History site is a bit much, with 12000 members 5 per member would probably be better and achieve more money. Rather than a few people paying 15.


Funny that the History section were I came to in the first place to help I have to pay to see images, but the for sale section where people are making money from Wiki I can see & post pictures to, somethings a bit skewiff on Wiki if you ask me smack
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 7:28am

Originally Posted by OxtonHill
Originally Posted by locomotive
Don't you think that 15 to look at the pictures on the History site is a bit much, with 12000 members 5 per member would probably be better and achieve more money. Rather than a few people paying 15.


Funny that the History section were I came to in the first place to help I have to pay to see images, but the for sale section where people are making money from Wiki I can see & post pictures to, somethings a bit skewiff on Wiki if you ask me smack


It is a shame frown
The threads do open up with the pictures and story combined
After much deliberation, I paid the 15
The bonus is, we are not bombarded with dodgy adverts to pay for the site

I suppose, the site has go so big now, the cost will rise to host it
Posted By: billy_anorak59

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 1:23pm

Originally Posted by chriskay

Another question arises from the picture; why the big loop from the entrance, via Sidney St., to the Woodside shaft?

I'm guessing that if it didn't, it would pile straight into the railway tunnel at Hamilton Square (which looks to be on a straight line from the Road Tunnel entrance) plus, a winding curve would allow a more gentle gradient to get over the railway and then below the river bed? Just my thoughts.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 1:43pm

They had a lot of problems with the acquisition of property
There was going to be one entrance in the garden of the Woodside hotel but was substituted for the 2 entrances at Chester st and Rendel st and it states that they had many problems obtaining property
Maybe the Sidney st ventilation shaft dictated that course for the tunnel
Posted By: chriskay

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 2:07pm

Originally Posted by billy_anorak59
Originally Posted by chriskay

Another question arises from the picture; why the big loop from the entrance, via Sidney St., to the Woodside shaft?

I'm guessing that if it didn't, it would pile straight into the railway tunnel at Hamilton Square (which looks to be on a straight line from the Road Tunnel entrance) plus, a winding curve would allow a more gentle gradient to get over the railway and then below the river bed? Just my thoughts.


That makes sense: even if they had avoided the rail tunnel, the distance from the entrance to the river would probably be too steep in a straight line.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 2:19pm

Originally Posted by chriskay
Originally Posted by billy_anorak59
Originally Posted by chriskay

Another question arises from the picture; why the big loop from the entrance, via Sidney St., to the Woodside shaft?

I'm guessing that if it didn't, it would pile straight into the railway tunnel at Hamilton Square (which looks to be on a straight line from the Road Tunnel entrance) plus, a winding curve would allow a more gentle gradient to get over the railway and then below the river bed? Just my thoughts.


That makes sense: even if they had avoided the rail tunnel, the distance from the entrance to the river would probably be too steep in a straight line.


Not really, as I stated above they was going to just have 1 entrance at the Woodside hotel with no mention of how steep the gradient would be (from that book you recommended Chris) wink
Posted By: billy_anorak59

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 2:21pm

Originally Posted by mikeeb
They had a lot of problems with the acquisition of property
There was going to be one entrance in the garden of the Woodside hotel but was substituted for the 2 entrances at Chester st and Rendel st and it states that they had many problems obtaining property
Maybe the Sidney st ventilation shaft dictated that course for the tunnel


Yes - as per the red route on the map, but still spiralling to get a decent gradient:


Attached picture bk_lines.jpg
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: An interesting picture - 10th Aug 2016 2:23pm

Aah, I see and stand corrected wink
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