wirral forums

New Novichok Saga

Posted By: granny

New Novichok Saga - 5th Jul 2018 8:30am



Blimey ! This seems even more suspicious. Maybe it's to give credence to the case of the Skripals. (Who have probably left the country by now and living in US, courtesy of CIA) .

We have not heard sight nor sound of the policeman who was affected by it.

The clean up operation in Salisbury seemed to lack any sort of emergency, after the 'seat' stayed in place for weeks. Apart from many other little or large questionable characteristics of the case..... we now have this latest attack.

Very odd, but one thing that BBC reported early afternoon yesterday on 24 hr news was that the housing where these people were living was a very new estate. People still moving in and many are from the military or ex military. I haven't heard it mentioned since.
When the inquiries of the Skripal case were happening it was on news that they had taken a car away from the military base near- by to be examined.

I still find all of this VERY suspect, and wonder what the next reactionary move will be .from Her Majesty's Government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Novichok Saga - 5th Jul 2018 8:49am

I wasn't convinced it was the Russians last time and I'm even less convinced it's them again. No evidence was ever presented to support this accusation. Theresa May persuading a load of other Western leaders to join in her accusations doesn't add up to any more than a bucket of warm spit in terms of evidence.

Basically, we didn't know who was responsible last time and we don't know this time.

If you want a wild guess I'd have Ukraine pretty high on the list. Their government, to put it mildly, is somewhat dodgy, they probably have access to the stuff from the days of the USSR, and have a strong interest in trying to discredit Russia.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 5th Jul 2018 9:52am


I still think it's the CIA. Think of the scenario last time. Poisoning, expelled Russian Diplomats here, EU and America. Then in response to an almost certain 'fake chemical attack' in Syria, .. US, UK had reason to strike Syria .

Now , only last week it has already been suggested that another 'fake chemical attack' in Syria is about to be launched. I can't help feeling that the whole thing is wrapped up as an excuse to go against the Russian and Iranian support for Syria, because they are still desperate to get rid of Assad for the benefit of Israel.
Assad is now on the edge of Golan's demilitarised zone , i.e. Golan being Syria's land occupied by Israel. If Assad steps into his own land, (land which has never been recognised as Israel's land) there's every reason that the shit will hit the
fan, and US and UK want a good reason to defend and support Israel with military might.
So what better way than to whip up anti-Russian feeling all over again.. Thoughts of conspiracy ? Maybe, but I was right about the same military response and reasoning last time , i.e. in April.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 12:51am

Timeline i read was that 2 stories were circulating to start with .1) was that they had taken drugs 2)major incident called.. and a note that nothing in the backgrounds of the sick couple could suggest why they should be poisoned. Govt are in a really tricky situation ... if they dont condemn Russia it suggests that Russia might not have been behind Skripal case in the first place. Really fascinating chess game in progress....
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 8:55am

I heard a claim on the radio today that the novichok used against the Skripals would have degraded to harmless levels by now so it is 'fresh' novichok that has been used. That it degrades is not too surprising. Many chemicals do.

However, as I understand it, it is a binary weapon. It is made by mixing two harmless reagents, so it is quite possible that one of them would have been spread on one surface - say a door handle, and the other on something like a handle of a car. Whilst the novichok might degrade with time, it is also quite possible - even likely - that the reagents used to make it do not. This makes sense. You want your weapon to be stockpiled, but the nerve agent to degrade after it has done its job. And if they have not been cleared up then someone touching two objects coated with them might well pick up a potentially lethal dose.

I imagine the clear-up crews were looking for novichok, and the reagents known to us. But there is often more than one way to make a chemical. Not all of them are guaranteed to be known to all experts. It is one thing to detect a known chemical, but looking for an unknown one is much trickier.

The long and short of it is that the whole area might be contaminated, and remain so for an indefinite period. Moreover, those attempting to clear it up will be unable to do so.

It is a pity that the desire to blame the Russians excluded their knowledge from the investigation. They might well be able to throw light on what reagents they know of. It seems to have been a rather stupid decision as well as a possibly unfair and politically motivated one to condemn the suspect without any evidence or trial.

The thing about stupid people is that often they are not just stupider than you think. they are stupider than you CAN think. Clearly none of this has occurred to them and they are currently blaming the Russians again!
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 9:14am

Latest:

Quote
The nerve agent that poisoned a couple near Salisbury was unlikely to have been left in the open before they touched it, a government scientist has told BBC News.

Novichok can be degraded by rainwater and sunlight over time - meaning it was probably discovered by the pair in a contained space, the source added.

They were exposed to it after handling a contaminated item, police said.


I guess it all hinges on what that item was and where they got it. The media has already been portraying them as druggies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44733873
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 10:54am


It's more of a mystery than the first. IMO. The timeline is confusing. Did they both go the Baptist Church fete or not ? One personal report said they did, another said they didn't a third said she went to hospital on Sat morning, and the man was at the Church with a friend or neighbour, where he had a beef burger but didn't seem well.. These are reports from the public in direct contact with the couple.
I don't for one minute imagine that a professional hit man or assassin would have simply discarded residue of such a lethal agent and definitely not in such close proximity to the original crime. If it had been in contact with clothes , possibly.
Once more nothing is making sense.
Maybe these two have been contaminated deliberately in an attempt to justify the original claims. Javid certainly hit of the Russians again yesterday... out of all proportion IMO.
These two people wouldn't matter in society to those in high places if it proved justification to lies. i.e. in espionage. Let's face it, the whole country are suspect about the Skripal case , so what better way to counteract ?
With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if this couple don't survive. No tales to be told then......
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 11:03am

On the other hand, the original perpetrator would want to dispose of the remaining equipment as fast as possible to make sure he doesn't contaminate himself.

A syringe would be a relatively safe way of laying the poison and also would account for the longevity of the remaining poison.

I'm a bit confused that the official story are these are smack-heads yet the neighbours are saying they are nice people and the neighbours don't seem like smack-head loving people.

This second incident seems to be right beside Boscombe Down but that could easily be coincidental I guess.
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 11:11am

If it's a binary poison - which I believe it is - the stuff carried by the perpetrators will be pretty harmless, and could probably be disposed of simply by flushing it down the toilet.

It would not even be harmful if you touched it. It is also possible that one of the reagents could be a perfectly harmless domestic substance like bicarb. or propyl alcohol.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 11:53am



Re: 'Smack heads'. One of the first people who knew them and who was interviewed on TV said she didn't take drugs. That is also stated in the BBC report.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 4:09pm

Yes it is binary but normally it is mixed before application as would appear to have been the case with the Skripals, there was no report of the reagents being found in two separate places.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 5:59pm

Again we see medics in full boots and suits next to police in uniform.. Think we needed to be reminded how nasty Russia really is as we and the world are getting cosy with them at the football. cctv showing the lady stocking up on what looks like cheap cider or beer so maybe alcoholics
Posted By: assassin

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 6:54pm

It was the Russians as our pm has said and she and mps never lie so it must be real raftl
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 10:00pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Yes it is binary but normally it is mixed before application as would appear to have been the case with the Skripals, there was no report of the reagents being found in two separate places.


Doesn't have to be mixed before use. A lot of binary weapons like shells keep them separate until the contents of both are blown togther by a detonation on hitting the target.

If I wanted to use it to assassinate anyone, I'd certainly apply it separately to items I know they'd handle. Dann sight safer than mixing it and risk getting the resulting stuff on me.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 6th Jul 2018 10:05pm

We were told Skripal lived on the outskirts of the city. He collapsed by Queen Elizabeth Gardens near the centre. Military grade Novichok was found on the handle of his front door quite a distance away.
We have not been informed ( to my knowledge) whether any traces were found on his car door or on steering wheel.
They took the car on the Sunday morning to the cemetery.

Why is it that the same agent is now found in Q E Gardens just by where they collapsed ?
This is where the police are concentrating the efforts, but to me it seems a bit far out from Skripal's home, and a very strange coincidence considering that the perpetrator would have probably disappeared into the ether after the initial attack. Knowing full well that a full scale investigation would be happening in a short period of time, why would anyone jeopardise themselves by dumping it in the public domain so soon afterwards. If they didn't ,and then later returned to dump it... well, that's not even rational. Why not throw it down a drain ?


Just me playing detective.
I wonder if Miss S had it all the time ? A nasty accident and then she flung it ?
Posted By: venice

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 5:39am

Originally Posted by granny

It's more of a mystery than the first. IMO. The timeline is confusing. Did they both go the Baptist Church fete or not ? One personal report said they did, another said they didn't a third said she went to hospital on Sat morning, and the man was at the Church with a friend or neighbour, where he had a beef burger but didn't seem well.. These are reports from the public in direct contact with the couple.
I don't for one minute imagine that a professional hit man or assassin would have simply discarded residue of such a lethal agent and definitely not in such close proximity to the original crime. If it had been in contact with clothes , possibly.
Once more nothing is making sense.
Maybe these two have been contaminated deliberately in an attempt to justify the original claims. Javid certainly hit of the Russians again yesterday... out of all proportion IMO.
These two people wouldn't matter in society to those in high places if it proved justification to lies. i.e. in espionage. Let's face it, the whole country are suspect about the Skripal case , so what better way to counteract ?
With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if this couple don't survive. No tales to be told then......


granny although I agree obviously this crime has been planned professionally -- why would we presume the end delivery was by a professional ? Isnt it possible that the actual deed may have been performed by the professional's meathead stooge who simply didnt follow instructions to the letter because he didnt fully understand the complexities of what he was dealing with ?
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 9:20am

Originally Posted by venice
Originally Posted by granny

It's more of a mystery than the first. IMO. The timeline is confusing. Did they both go the Baptist Church fete or not ? One personal report said they did, another said they didn't a third said she went to hospital on Sat morning, and the man was at the Church with a friend or neighbour, where he had a beef burger but didn't seem well.. These are reports from the public in direct contact with the couple.
I don't for one minute imagine that a professional hit man or assassin would have simply discarded residue of such a lethal agent and definitely not in such close proximity to the original crime. If it had been in contact with clothes , possibly.
Once more nothing is making sense.
Maybe these two have been contaminated deliberately in an attempt to justify the original claims. Javid certainly hit of the Russians again yesterday... out of all proportion IMO.
These two people wouldn't matter in society to those in high places if it proved justification to lies. i.e. in espionage. Let's face it, the whole country are suspect about the Skripal case , so what better way to counteract ?
With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if this couple don't survive. No tales to be told then......


granny although I agree obviously this crime has been planned professionally -- why would we presume the end delivery was by a professional ? Isnt it possible that the actual deed may have been performed by the professional's meathead stooge who simply didnt follow instructions to the letter because he didnt fully understand the complexities of what he was dealing with ?


I doubt whether it was a professional hitman or spetznaz, anyone with a modicum of sense wouldn't want to be involved with a nerve agent, further more if by any outside chance they had been caught they might have shown a direct link back to Russia, links to the underworld Russian mafia is more likely, a knuckle dragger ( go and wipe that on a door handle Ivan okay duh), also as good fortune would have it for the Russians this has happened in the vicinity of Porton Down thus a red herring has been introduced into the equation.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 12:04pm

Nobody would trust a knuckle dragger with their nerve agent, it would be like sending Theresa May on the first Mars mission - while there would be obvious benefits the mission would be doomed to failure.
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 12:41pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Nobody would trust a knuckle dragger with their nerve agent, it would be like sending Theresa May on the first Mars mission - while there would be obvious benefits the mission would be doomed to failure.


Well it hasn't exactly been a roaring success has it DD? whoever did it failed to keep contamination levels to ground zero, and if, I say if they discarded a contaminated container / syringe then it begins to look like a bungled effort unlike the umbrella job or the later poisoning that were delivered with a certain amount of professionalism.
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 12:43pm

Sorry meant to say sending May to Mars would be a benefit, well not for the Martians, but she does appear to live on a different planet.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 1:08pm

That's the nature of nerve agents, they are extremely difficult to contain and there will always be a high risk of collateral damage.

On the other hand, one of the current couple could have been the administrators of the Skripal poisoning and had been storing the container/remains or whatever then decided to dispose of it recently and got contaminated in the process.

But the reality is still that Russia is way down the list of being involved in this, there was no significant benefit to them, there has/could have been significant advantages to other Governments or even organisations.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 3:13pm

Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Nobody would trust a knuckle dragger with their nerve agent, it would be like sending Theresa May on the first Mars mission - while there would be obvious benefits the mission would be doomed to failure.


Well it hasn't exactly been a roaring success has it DD? whoever did it failed to keep contamination levels to ground zero, and if, I say if they discarded a contaminated container / syringe then it begins to look like a bungled effort unlike the umbrella job or the later poisoning that were delivered with a certain amount of professionalism.


...and that is why my suspicions are yet again raised to the authenticity of this. One of my previous comments referred to Syria, as we tap away, 8 hrs ago, Israel bombed Syrian Army positions on the 'occupied' Golan Heights . We as a country could not engaged in any sort of combat with an ally, likewise, Russia has now been made out to be the enemy.
Reason for Israel attacks is; they are worried about the collapse of the terrorist front in Golan. Terrorists that they have supported ( and given medical assistance under the banner of being 'humanitarian' over the last 7yrs) , with the backing of the west and others. USA , UK, France, Saudi, Bahrain, Jordan, and possibly Turkey. Not sure what Turkey's roll really is. The terrorists have been supported with finance, cars to include number plates from Jordan Saudi ,UAE, Bahrain. . UK support by £millions into the White Helmets, (alliance with terrorist groups) ,and FSA and Al Quaeda or Al Nusra with tanks, drones, israeli and US weapons, hidden medical supplies , resources, and chemicals. How have all those things managed to reach these terrorists in a country without crossing borders. ? and why haven't the west tried to stop it ? They have reached Syria by either going through Turkey, Iraq, Jordan or Israel.
Let's see what happens after Trumps visit. Everything seems to have a timeline these days !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 7th Jul 2018 3:19pm

Never mind what goes on in the world, money will always keep flowing, trades will be done.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jul 2018 9:04pm

So Dawn has died, sadly. Probably not enough strength to fight it, considering her life style. Very sad, but rather expected.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jul 2018 9:27pm

Sad poor lass.. left 3 kids as well..we need answers..
wondering what alleged item they both have touched that no one else has touched.? assuming its the same item and of course assuming its so called novichok .

is it just me or does Dawn have the look of a Russian Bond villain the one with the daggers in her shoes...maybe not

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Symptoms are the same as those of other nerve agents Local effects are thought to be immediate, while systemic effects may be delayed up to 18 hours Could one assume the item they touched was fairly close to them and they should have been fairly close to each other when they became ill?
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jul 2018 9:59pm

sorry edit timed out

.... report said she collapsed at a flat. so contaminated item could be in the flat yet police say still looking for it..

mail online report says they picked up a contaminated vial at a known drug "den" in Park in salisbury...which was found in his flat. So they picked it up and walked/drove home?

Sun timeline suggests they were in the park on the friday. Dawn rushed to hospital from his flat at 10:15am Sat Morning. Her partner (instead of going hospital with her then goes Boots and a Baptist church and returns home at 3pm before being hospitalised at 6:30pm. strange

If drug addicts as has been said. He could have seen Dawn become ill from a drug injection and fearing needle contamination went boots for clean syringe( Baptist visit seems bit random unless to score or pay.. He then goes home and shoots up himself with same stuff as his partner did. All pure speculation.......for my new novel...
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Jul 2018 5:09am


If effects could have been delayed up to 18hrs, that could maybe put the charity shop into the picture. Some discarded, contaminated clothing , possibly previously obtained from a charity shop so the ownership is never known , and returned to another charity shop afterwards.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Jul 2018 5:17am



Even worse for her family is, she probably won't be allowed a funeral due to scientific research and all that.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Jul 2018 9:00am

would be interesting to know what they bought at chemists..might be a clue as to what they knew if anything.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 15th Jul 2018 11:43pm

you couldnt make this up could you? Apparently the Novichock was found in a small bottle of perfume by "Charlie"


The nerve agent that poisoned two people in Amesbury was contained in a perfume bottle, the brother of one of the victims has said.

Matthew Rowley said his brother Charlie, who is seriously ill in hospital, told him he had picked up the perfume bottle.

The Metropolitan Police, which is leading the investigation, refused to confirm the claim.

Previously the force has said only that it was found in a "small bottle".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44839805
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 16th Jul 2018 6:41am

The story from beginning to end gets more and more unreal. A perfume bottle with Charlie connections (Fish) ??? How very unprofessional of the assassin.

Why would a professional , male assassin, carry a perfume bottle ? Could do I suppose but I bet we all subconsciously thought it would be a male, when it could have easily been a female , ...... and maybe his daughter !

Even so, the news we get still makes the whole thing questionable .

BBC report : " Matthew Rowley told BBC News he was still upset about his brother's condition after speaking to him on the telephone.
He said Charlie Rowley was "absolutely not the brother I know" though he said he was now eating solid food "

My question is ; has Matthew Rowley only spoken to his brother by phone, because Ms Skripal's cousin said she didn't think it was Yulia speaking to her on the phone ?

It will be interesting to know the results from the laboratories, but we probably already know it will be Russian MK II . (my ass)
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 16th Jul 2018 7:39am

Originally Posted by granny
The story from beginning to end gets more and more unreal. A perfume bottle with Charlie connections (Fish) ??? How very unprofessional of the assassin.

Why would a professional , male assassin, carry a perfume bottle ? Could do I suppose but I bet we all subconsciously thought it would be a male, when it could have easily been a female , ...... and maybe his daughter !

Even so, the news we get still makes the whole thing questionable .

BBC report : " Matthew Rowley told BBC News he was still upset about his brother's condition after speaking to him on the telephone.
He said Charlie Rowley was "absolutely not the brother I know" though he said he was now eating solid food "

My question is ; has Matthew Rowley only spoken to his brother by phone, because Ms Skripal's cousin said she didn't think it was Yulia speaking to her on the phone ?

It will be interesting to know the results from the laboratories, but we probably already know it will be Russian MK II . (my ass)


I told you it was a bungled attempt , fancy sending an Avon lady.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 16th Jul 2018 8:00am

Bound to be Eaux de Toilletteski, with made in Russia embossed on the bottle.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 16th Jul 2018 1:44pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Bound to be Eaux de Toilletteski, with made in Russia embossed on the bottle.



Are you talking Faberge , DD ? Charles Faberge ?

Never discredit the 'Avon Ladies' , Casper. Many have hidden talents.

Posted By: Moonstar

Re: New Novichok Saga - 17th Jul 2018 11:21am

More family conversation apparently reveals that, believing the contents of the bottle was perfume, they sprayed each other with it.

It is said that only close family may visit and they have to have a code word to phone.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 17th Jul 2018 7:19pm

A perfume bottle would put Ms Skripal in my starting line up. Easy to smuggle in. Concealed in handbag. Accidentally got the stuff on her and her Dad and when realised they were feeling ill she ditches it in the Salisbury park shortly before collapsing. She didnt want to be found with it in her handbag (was she carrying a handbag?). Why she brought it over? For Porton Down? The way Julia seems to have been handled by UK would suggest she may have been working for our secret services..or certainly may be now.
or Charlie and Dawn may not be a squeaky clean.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 19th Jul 2018 10:15am



I tend to think the same way, Fish. However, as many will have seen the news this am, according to BBC it turns out there were several Russians involved. They have been identified through CCTV, cross-checked with border entry data.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44883803


The place must be awash with Russian spies/agents ! More rubbish being generated through the media and how many did they catch on CCTV in Mr Skripals road ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 19th Jul 2018 11:04am

Foreign Office involved, now which clown of an MP has just distanced himself from the Foreign Office?

"I know nothing" coming up soon I bet.
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 9:50am

Originally Posted by granny


I tend to think the same way, Fish. However, as many will have seen the news this am, according to BBC it turns out there were several Russians involved. They have been identified through CCTV, cross-checked with border entry data.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44883803


The place must be awash with Russian spies/agents ! More rubbish being generated through the media and how many did they catch on CCTV in Mr Skripals road ?


Why do you say it is hard to believe granny? subversion, sleepers, its all very well known, back in the days of the cold war, all exercises were heavily monitored by the Russians in Germany, traffic routes monitored and convoys shadowed by Russian soxmis vehicles, with the ease that Eastern Europeans can come and go it would be no surprise that we could be awash with subversive agents, should it all kick off I have no doubt our structure would come under attack from within.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 6:03pm

Assuming the alleged bottle of perfume containing nerve agent was dumped on the day it was used to poison the Skripals ( why carry it around to dump at a later date and risk contaminating yourself) ?) then find it hard to believe it wasnt picked up sooner . Lying around in park for 4 months ? Dogs, dog walkers , grass cutters, litter pickers , general public etc etc.

Add to that the massive police search after the Skripal poison (sniffer dogs?) how would they miss a container with the nerve agent in that a member of the public 4 months later just happens to pick up


Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 6:27pm

"A source also said to have knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Thursday that two suspects had been identified and that the pair had left the UK after the attack."
Convenient... So that would suggest the Novichok perfume bottle was dumped before they left the UK. One article suggested Dawn was rooting around in bins looking for drugs ??? So bins dont get emptied in Salisbury for 3 months or more?.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 8:20pm

The problem with the perfume bottle is that it would only be self-administered (presumably unknowingly) and as such would be out of direct control.

Nobody is going to use an atomiser to spray a door handle with nerve agent, the chances of not contaminating yourself one way or another is extremely low.

This all stinks of a plan that has gone wrong and one botch after another are being attempted to fix it.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 9:19pm

"This all stinks of a plan that has gone wrong and one botch after another are being attempted to fix it."

Yep.. Probably be told next they won it in the Tombola at the baptist church.
The skripal case could be one that went wrong so lets blame the Russians The Amesbury case could be the Russians throwing a spanner in the works of the murky world of spying.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 20th Jul 2018 9:25pm



Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by granny


I tend to think the same way, Fish. However, as many will have seen the news this am, according to BBC it turns out there were several Russians involved. They have been identified through CCTV, cross-checked with border entry data.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44883803


The place must be awash with Russian spies/agents ! More rubbish being generated through the media and how many did they catch on CCTV in Mr Skripals road ?



Why do you say it is hard to believe granny? subversion, sleepers, its all very well known, back in the days of the cold war, all exercises were heavily monitored by the Russians in Germany, traffic routes monitored and convoys shadowed by Russian soxmis vehicles, with the ease that Eastern Europeans can come and go it would be no surprise that we could be awash with subversive agents, should it all kick off I have no doubt our structure would come under attack from within.



I understand what you are getting at Casper, my thoughts are still with the original Skripal case of how he was not bumped off before his daughter arrived in UK. How they both appeared to collapse at the same time, on the same park bench and the gardens opposite to where they collapsed, (when by chance a doctor and nurse just happened to be passing) where not even searched before this week, which happens to be two weeks after Dawn and Charlie's hospitalisation. All that, is then explained away by 'several' Russians 'involved ' arriving in the country on the same weekend as Miss Skripal (I think that was implied) . What was such a big deal to get rid of them both then ? If it is all authentic and no funny games ,then I still think Yulia has been involved and maybe she had her minders .
Considering Skripals life history, it's quite strange he was given accommodation in such proximity to Porton Down in the first instance .The military base is only 2. 3 miles from Amesbury ....Charlie's home town. A lot of military would have been living in the town.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Skripal

@ Fish. The only other possibility could be the charity shops they were reported visiting. ( I may have mentioned this before) Maybe Dawn came across a garment with a bottle in the pocket. Clothing previously obtained from a charity shop and discarded by the perpetrator in anther charity shop, to cover any knowledge of where it could have come from. However, the charity shop does not appear to be in any line of enquiry at the moment i.e. not what I've heard.

@DD. Absolutely. With such dangerous incidents, whether mistake, deliberate or what, if committed by secret agents who are murderers, they have no regard for life in these networks and just maybe (probably getting even more far fetched) but what was to say that some guy or girl hasn't given it to them whilst they were in the park by counter intelligence agents, albeit 4 months later to cover up the mystery that no one believed in the first place.. Maybe Dawn had it for 4 months or maybe two unsuspecting people sitting in the park, stoned and /or drunk. Considered to be a waste of space in civilian life and using them as an ideal escape route for the original botched job committed for political reason.
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 21st Jul 2018 8:15am

It is within the realms of possibility that they didn't know where he lived and followed Ms Skripal to his location.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 21st Jul 2018 11:47am

Originally Posted by casper
It is within the realms of possibility that they didn't know where he lived and followed Ms Skripal to his location.
Certainly possible. read the secret services knew (before or after?)which plane the alleged spies were on and using false names. If that is true then no reason why they cant name them..as suspects. If they knew they were coming in i suspect they may have had a watchful eye being kept on them...but why so much time elapsed before Police even mention they know who they might be..
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 21st Jul 2018 9:49pm

And another change to the story, they stated they found a bottle of perfume but now the brother of Matthew Rowley is saying that the bottle broke in Rowley's hand. I'm sure if the police/security people found a "broken" bottle of nerve agent they would have mentioned it was broken.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 22nd Jul 2018 5:55pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
And another change to the story, they stated they found a bottle of perfume but now the brother of Matthew Rowley is saying that the bottle broke in Rowley's hand. I'm sure if the police/security people found a "broken" bottle of nerve agent they would have mentioned it was broken.

Bottle had to break as its the only way you could get the novichok grease application out of it...how they got it into the bottle will come out in the next exciting episode of " Jackanory"

The Telegraph describes it "Shortly before being released from Salisbury District Hospital Mr Rowley told his brother Matthew that he and Miss Sturgess, 44, were contaminated after handling a container disguised as a perfume bottle."
So it wasnt a perfume bottle just a container disguised as one" LMFAO


Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 22nd Jul 2018 6:00pm

But prior to Matthew breaking the bottle, Charlie had "sprayed" it on her wrist.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 22nd Jul 2018 10:21pm



Ha ! SO now we have a container disguised as a perfume bottle, found in the centre of Salisbury, which Dawn obviously didn't sniff and test before she went to Charlie's on the Saturday morning, as it was then she sprayed it on her wrist and dropped it, thus breaking it, and I assume he put it in a bin.

If she had sniffed it on finding it, surely there would have been a quicker reaction.

OR did she pick it up on the way to Charlie's on the Saturday morning, which would indicate it was more than likely found in Amesbury ? .. Now that does pose a few more questions.

If she sprayed it at Charlie's, where it broke then it would seem to have acted very quickly indeed, which is possible I imagine, but to think there was enough in the container to spray, it must have contained more than miniscule amounts ??

HIs friend who was with him when he fell ill and who called the ambulance wasn't contaminated .
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 23rd Jul 2018 12:32pm

Originally Posted by granny


Ha ! SO now we have a container disguised as a perfume bottle, found in the centre of Salisbury, which Dawn obviously didn't sniff and test before she went to Charlie's on the Saturday morning, as it was then she sprayed it on her wrist and dropped it, thus breaking it, and I assume he put it in a bin.


Current story is they found it together, she used it, passed it to Matthew and it broke in his hand.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 23rd Jul 2018 6:46pm



Who's Matthew ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 23rd Jul 2018 8:56pm

Originally Posted by granny


Who's Matthew ?


Ha, I shouldn't rely on my memory, I latched onto the brother's name accidentally.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 25th Jul 2018 12:47am



Memory failing is it DD ? Join the club.

Now I am completely convinced that we (the public) are being led up the garden path.. to a point when we will say.. stuff it, not interested anymore.
This BBC report just flies in the face of everything we have been told in the last week and ( I think) even more ridiculous .. Obviously it's suggested that it was full bottle , wrapped up in pretty packaging ! (got to be a woman if it's anyone's) A man would be bothered to be fiddling about with a perfume spray bottle in expensive packaging when trying to do a rather discreet assassination, would he ?. Charlie hasn't said where he found it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44947162

The man who found the bottle of the nerve agent Novichok which killed his partner said it was in a glass bottle within an "expensive-looking" box.

Charlie Rowley, who was also poisoned, said he gave his partner Dawn Sturgess the box - which he believed to be perfume - as a present.

Speaking to ITV News, he said Ms Sturgess grew ill within 15 minutes of spraying the substance on her hands.

Ms Sturgess, 44, died a week later on 8 July in Salisbury Hospital.

Mr Rowley was discharged from the same hospital on Friday, 20 July, three weeks after being exposed to the nerve agent.


The 45-year-old believes he had the glass bottle at his home for a couple of days before giving it to his partner.

He described the bottle as having a plastic dispenser which was held in a cardboard box with a plastic moulding.

He said it looked expensive and that Ms Sturgess recognised the brand on the box.

In an interview with ITV News, he said: "I do have a memory of her spraying it on her wrists and rubbing them together.

"I guess that's how she applied it and became ill. I guess how I got in contact with it is when I put the spray part to the bottle... I ended tipping some on my hands, but I washed it off under the tap.

"It had an oily substance and I smelled it and it didn't smell of perfume. It felt oily. I washed it off and I didn't think anything of it. It all happened so quick."

"Within 15 minutes Dawn said she had a headache.

"She asked me if I had any headache tablets. In that time she said she felt peculiar and needed to lie down in the bath.

"I went into the bathroom and found her in the bath, fully clothed, in a very ill state."

He said he felt to blame for what happened but also attacked the "irresponsible people" who left the poison behind for others to pick up.

"It was just so unfortunate. I'm very angry at the whole incident," added Mr Rowley who was himself hospitalised after coming into contact with the substance.

Remembering his partner he said she was "lovely lady" and a "wonderful woman" who had been planning to move to Amesbury from her sheltered accommodation in Salisbury.
Posted By: casper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 25th Jul 2018 9:09am

Are these the ramblings of the affects of Novichok or a self induced drug or alcohol problem? it could be he has been given his story by the authorities and only they know the true train of events, there have been various accounts given up to now, the broken bottle etc, I would imagine had he found a brand new wrapped bottle of perfume he would remember where it was found even as a possible source for future "finds", there is also the possibility he might have found it when it wasn't lost.
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 25th Jul 2018 9:17am


there is also the possibility he might have found it when it wasn't lost.

Ooooo ! Casper. raftl You could be right.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 29th Jul 2018 5:50pm

UK investigators believed that Skripal may have unknowingly carried the substance to England with her from Russia.....http://www.itv.com/news/2018-04-19/russian-airport-cctv-shows-yulia-skripal-boarding-plane-days-before-poisoning/

Charlie got no memory of where he found the expensive packaged bottle of "perfume"....but he is clear he never found it at any location searched by police in Amesbury or Salisbury.....wonder why that might be http://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-26/novichok-charlie-rowley-amesbury-nerve-agent-exclusive/
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 30th Jul 2018 6:30pm

read one line in a recent article that hinted that the police were not sold on the perfume bottle story... distancing themselves perhaps.

No pall bearers for Dawns coffin as a safety precaution? yet we still see police in uniform with a pair of blue disposable gloves sorting through bin rubbish with a litter picking stick
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 30th Jul 2018 10:30pm


'UK Investigators' say :

" UNKNOWINGLY carried the substance to England with her from Russia "

Last week it was said that they knew who the 4 culprits were, and they came in from Russia after she arrived.

Who is putting out this crap ? If she had it , she damn well knew about it, otherwise it wouldn't have ended up on the door handle of Mr. Skripal's house.

Now 'Police' hint that they were not sold on the perfume bottle story !

It's all getting rather silly, don't you think ?

The plot thickens and the rod hasn't managed to reel any of us in yet. ( maybe some)

Did the funeral directors have protective clothing and masks on ?

Espionage and planned from beginning to end. All set up. She i.e. Miss Skripal arrived, and her dad wanted her to stay in UK as a safe haven . Poisoning ; A story concocted to cover up, then they go into hiding. CIA wanted them over there.. why ? Break relations with Russia and create a massive reaction from goodness knows how many countries .

Next thing the mystery of Dawn and Charlie, ... they could have been targeted had it planted on them in a drunk state, and it seems more plausible really as a diversion from the original story which no one believed.
She died, he survived and yet he got it on his hands (washed off , oily substance) Did the Skripals not realise they had an oily substance on their hands and go and wash it off ? The sink couldn't have been far away.
Skripas in hospital for I don't know how long, Charlie out in a much shorter time, but health wise a much weaker character. Then we get fed his story, but we haven't heard the Skripals story yet have we ?

Keep it coming Fish.. What do you think ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 30th Jul 2018 10:52pm

There are at least two videos of the boyfriend talking normally, if he had a dose of nerve agent sufficient to knock him out he wouldn't have full muscle control back already and he's not even looking jaundiced or anything.

I really struggle to believe these were nerve agents at all.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 1st Aug 2018 8:51am

The no pall bearers story appears to be just that. Apparently they did have them to carry her coffin. Either crap journalism or deliberate disinformation...
Think there was an article prior to amesbury warning druggies about dodgy fentanyl doing the rounds which has some similar side effects.

In the skripal case i read he got quite animated in the restaurant according to other diners...i wondered if this was because he realised something had gone wrong suggesting prior knowledge on his part.
Can we get james bond in on the case
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 1st Aug 2018 2:00pm




I think James would find it just as much a mystery .
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 2nd Aug 2018 7:35pm

Interesting if true....QINETIQ | Ex-Partner Of New Novichok Victim Works For US/UK Defense Contractor Linked To Porton Down


https://steemkr.com/news/@fortified/qinetiq-or-ex-partner-of-new-novichok-victim-works-for-us-uk-defense-contractor-linked-to-porton-down
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Aug 2018 11:12pm

Latest i came across

" Mr Rowley told ITV News he had earlier found a sealed bottle of perfume and given it to Ms Sturgess, who sprayed the substance on her wrist"

A SEALED bottle... How do you put Novichock in a sealed bottle?

US putting there oar in now "The US is to impose sanctions on Russia after determining (not proving) that it used nerve agent against former Russian double agent Sergei Skripal in the UK in March.

The move was announced on Wednesday by the US state department."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45122723
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Aug 2018 4:04pm


US getting involved puts the picture more clearly so far as I:m concerned. Taking the weight and questionable, challenging, cock ups off Mrs May's shoulders, so UK can say they have completed all their enquiries, whilst US do the attack from which CIA involvement was quite possible...... and let us never forget... they know everything ! . Strange .

It is on similar lines to 9/11 , which many still don't believe in the evidence provided. Which in the case of the Pentagon, there wasn't any. We don't even know if a plane crashed at all.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Aug 2018 10:28pm

There is cctv security camera evidence for the 911 pentagon attack and it comes in the shape of a missile not a plane. Its the Pentagons own cctv camera. Thats why it was a circular hole and not a plane shaped one..
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Aug 2018 10:32pm

Originally Posted by fish5133
There is cctv security camera evidence for the 911 pentagon attack and it comes in the shape of a missile not a plane. Its the Pentagons own cctv camera. Thats why it was a circular hole and not a plane shaped one..


So what happened to the supposedly 200 passengers, where they riding on it's back ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Aug 2018 11:30pm

Most of the nearly 200 victims were personnel in the Pentagon, there were only 64 people on board Flight 77.

As far as the video goes, all video compression techniques can produce very approximate representations of fast moving objects, especially when they only occur in a very small number of frames, in this instance it was only in one frame so the chances of a still being anything like the real object is very remote. This also explains the video of the aircraft that hit one of the towers appearing to have hit it before contact (sometimes accused of being a missile in front of the aircraft), this is a normal effect in compressed videos.

But the question still remains: where did the wings and engines impact the Pentagon?
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 9th Aug 2018 11:54pm



Exactly ! So far as the Pentagon staff is concerned , it was said to be a skeleton staff on the day and wasn't that part of the building hit, just been renovated or re-fitted and no one was in the offices ? I'm sure I read something like that.

So far as the staff are concerned, my cousins son was employed there, and that same day rather a lot of staff had been despatched to other places as he was too !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 10th Aug 2018 12:52am

Originally Posted by granny
Exactly ! So far as the Pentagon staff is concerned , it was said to be a skeleton staff on the day and wasn't that part of the building hit, just been renovated or re-fitted and no one was in the offices ? I'm sure I read something like that.


I remember that being the story as well, that is was closed off for refurbishment, however now the story says 125 Pentagon staff were killed and they had moved in after the refurbishment.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jan 2019 9:48am

Sergei Skripal's house has been undergoing a decontamination process since March. They are now going to remove and replace the roof of the house and garage???

I'm sure they haven't been collecting all the rain that has run off the roof, perhaps it is to get better access to the attic but if contamination has drifted up there then surely the contamination could have drifted further afield and certainly into neighbours properties?
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jan 2019 9:53pm

Its like they need to put the story back in the newspapers to remind us how awfully nasty the Russians are (especially when they have recently arrested the US guy for alleged spying)

The photo on this article shows noone in PPE suits and yet the story says all materials will be wrapped sealed in bags and taken away. So we have scaffolding guys in normal clothing going up to the roof and yet its going to be a "military team dismantling it"

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-c...antled-novichok-attack/story?id=60230222
Posted By: granny

Re: New Novichok Saga - 8th Jan 2019 11:21pm



The whole thing seems to be a big windup . If the stuff was administered to the door handle, on the outside, how the heck does it get into the roof ?Did it get into the roof of the policeman's home , or into the roof of the eating place they visited.
If indeed it did get 'into' the Skripal's home, then how on earth could it... we haven't been told that have we ?

I agree with you Fish and DD, obviously some anti- Russian propaganda is about to be played again, in the not too distant future. We shall see.
Posted By: thesilentenigma

Re: New Novichok Saga - 21st Jan 2019 3:56pm

Ha ha. It has now come to light that the first person on the scene was the daughter of the Army's chief medical officer who was nearby. Carl Jung once asked 'What are the roots of coincidence',?
Posted By: fish5133

Re: New Novichok Saga - 22nd Jan 2019 6:26pm

Originally Posted by thesilentenigma
Ha ha. It has now come to light that the first person on the scene was the daughter of the Army's chief medical officer who was nearby. Carl Jung once asked 'What are the roots of coincidence',?

Yes just read that story in the Salisbury local radio website https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/loca...bes-moment-she-found-collapsed-skripals/
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