Does anyone know the outcome of the sainsbury meeting last night in greasby?. I just read the Wirral globe and omg do people jump on the band wagon.... i mean. would u rather have cheaper food and the means to shop at a normal price or have to travel to westkirby or upton for real prices,not rip off prices on food or have a carpark which is for the cat only" not shoppers for the co'op which belongs to the pub.....stop ya moaning.... the answer is simple. Really get a grip on life?? betting things to worry about....

I signed the petition against this.

And??.

meant better things to worry about, not betting..

Who gives a shit?

Haha fair play lad lol but i just want a sainsbury.... they got a deal on durex at the mo lol

Ha ha, not me, I don't live there.

Is that a sneaky ploy by Sainburys to reduce the population of Greasby and so have less people moaning about their shop?

On the other hand, reducing the number of future potential customers doesn't sound like a good long term business plan.

They got a deal on KY jelly too.

Is Edz a Sainsbury's lackey sent onto local internet sites to whip up support for this new store?

I don't see what the desperate need is for yet another supermarket on the Wirral. We must already have reached saturation point. They're destroying local shops and shopping centres. Enough already! Good luck to the people of Greasby in their fight against this development.

If people really need to go to a supermarket then there's a giant Sainsbury's down the road in Upton. There's also a bit further away in Prenton, a Tesco's in Heswall and a Morrison's in West Kirby. All easily accessible from Greasby town centre by car or bus.

yeah mate i'm a manager for sainsbury lol... Ok my mum is 66 and doesn't drive. Is it right that she has to travel to get cheaper food and then struggle to get home?? even VJ's is cheaper then co'op and thats a convenience store.

437, 83 and 83A buses all pass through Greasby very frequently and will take your Mum to all the above supermarkets [except Heswall Tesco]. As she's 66 she can travel free to these using her National Bus Pass. There's also and Aldi [or Lidl?] opening soon next to West Kirby station.

cheers for that mate...just mean the traveling part but will pass the info over to her

No probs. 437 is every 10 mins during the day time. 83/83A is every 15 mins.

Meeting was very well attended despite foul weather; hall was packed. That reinforced the community's opposition to the proposals really; particular mention was made of the impact the height and proximity of the building would have on the recently opened reading garden at the childrens centre - which, rather suspiciously, is not shown on the latest plans. A powerpoint presentation also showed the visual impact the development would have, issues with delivery wagons turning off road and into car park etc. Deadline for objections is now 19th January.

I am not against any development at all on principle on that site; if Greene King is so desperate to lease the land for retail, why not build a few smaller units in a more traditional way, to respect the reading garden and add to what the village already provides? I suggest Greasby would benefit from a fishmonger, small hardware, fabric/haberdashery/craft shop etc which would add character and choice, rather than letting one of the big supermarkets in, to the detriment of existing shops.

I appreciate the problems that small shops face these days with the influx of supermarkets but (you knew there was a but) I think the days of the corner shop are gone, no one has the money these days for the inflated prices that independent shops have to charge. Not their fault, supermarkets have bulk buying power. The way I see it, the small, independent shops should have built themselves up, Mr Marks and Mr Spenser only met as market traders in Birkenhead Market, look at them now! I'm not saying every 'Mr Fruit, the greengrocer' should be a national concern or go out of business but Asda, Tesco, Morrisons or Sainsbury's didn't start out with 73 hypermarkets in 29 counties, they worked up to it. Survival of the fittest, in my opinion!

couldn't agree less...... In my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion, the fact that it is wrong doesn't change the facts!

Took a long time to write with no thought at all.

Firstly, green king are only leasing / possibly selling the land , they are not building anything, so the option for putting smaller units on the land for your "wish list" of businesses isn't going to happen as its only sainsburys thats interested. Sainsburys is a vast property management company as-well as food retailer and they are renowned for swallowing up empty land and even existing shopping centres, empty pubs, to build on. Sainsburys and green king already have a reletionship, its not a new thing.

You seem to be living in the 90's. All this going to the butcher then the grocer then the fishmonger, its all gone forever..... we go to Tesco, asda, sainsburys and get it all in one place. By objecting to this development your'e not saving the small businesses because they have all gone, its too late. The Supermarkets are too powerful now.

And regardless of your petition, its probably already been decided anyway. Palms have been greased at the council, funny handshakes and all..........

just deal with it and look at the positives........ And i love the idea that if i want anything from a bog roll to a tin of soup at 3 am, i can pop out and get it....

This is 2012, the world isn't changing, its been changed for a long time now.

This reminds me of episode 120 of Southpark. Watch it if you get a chance......... it tells a story. Or read this LOL..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_Wall-Mart_This_Way_Comes

Just over a minute with nothing to think about!

1 Minute?
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Goodnight.

Pointless!
And, off topic!

Yes, goodnight peanut.... see you in Morrison tomorrow * double standards *

Yes I agree, totally off topic.

Don't go Morrisons, go to the Butchers in Greasby. And you know me?

No, but how do you get toothpaste, loo rolls, dvd's, potatoes, painkillers etc from the Butchers in Greasby?

I give up.

I stand by my earlier post, the days of the corner shop are numbered. Who would like to go back to the days when shops opened 08:00 to 18:00 and that was only the newsagents to accomodate he early delivery and the late Echo. You ran out of milk or baby food at 19:00, tough. Your wife or kid was sick in the night and you only had half a toilet roll left, hard luck. These days you can go and get it when you want it. While we are on the subject, what about getting kicked out of the pub at 15:00? The alcohol aisle being roped off in the shop at 23:00?
I do miss a smoke while playing a game of pool in the pub though! Got to take the rough with the smooth as do all these small traders. The supermarkets are here to stay, no petitions are going to change it, get used to it!

as I said "I give up"

And yet you carry on, somewhat negates your 'I give up'

Sorry for

We could get rid of the internet aswell. That would stop on-line shopping and force people back to the high street. Its happened in all corners of life, BT no longer have the monopoly on phone lines, british gas with gas supply, manweb with electricity....... Whoever piles it high and sells it cheap wins....... shame the butcher in greasby didnt think about it 20 years ago

the greasby massive lol

Thanks Greenwood for keeping us updated, much appreciated.

What about air travel, the television, the radio, how about the wheel?

Progress is going forward, no nuts are going to stop it!
I apologised for the 'off topic' you are redundant!

It's not really needed, is it?

On the opposite side of the road there's a co-op, fruit shop, hairdressers, general store, chippy, post office and a butchers.

Sainsbury's would undermine some of them, in my opinion.

West Kirby recently lost its fishmonger, there's a note on the door from the owner saying he couldn't sustain his business in the current economic climate.

It's not the supermarkets that cause the demise of the local corner shop, it's the people who shop there. Tragically the UK is becoming the USA in the way it shops, the town centres here are a haven of old pawn shops, stores selling cheap tat and tattoo parlours (well that's the ones remaining open, the rest are boarded up)
Sprawling acres of massive hypermarkets built with corrugated steel and plastic, shoot up in weeks to the delight of the locals who all pile in to their massive SUV's in order to spend hours wandering aimlessly (their oversized bulk clad in too tight lycra cycle shorts and tee shirts) through the 20 foot high aisles. Ten years later, when it's no longer a novelty, it's looking shabby and littered and no-one shops there anymore, it gets torn down in order to produce yet another brand new shiny sprawling mall with the exact same shops no more than two miles away.
I like to think of little towns and villages staying traditional but sadly it's not what people want, or rather, people do want them to remain but are not prepared to pay just a bit extra for their goods to keep them in business
I do hope though, that Sainsburys don't get their way but I feel like someone mentioned earlier, it will happen due to many palms being generously greased

Now that is sad

I'm with peanuts to a certain degree. Yes we do use the supermakets for what is not available locally,but we here have a corner shop 3 mins walk which opens at 6am and closes at 10pm everyday of the week. We can get most things there apart from fresh food and buisness is booming. The same people have a shop in Greasby and also the little eating place Ellies. Sainburys at Upton is less than 2 miles away. Asda is closer and Tesco in the other direction also a couple of miles. In between we now have a smaller Tesco on Pensby road and a new Sainsbury at the old Network Q garage on Pensby Road. Apart from the increase in conjestion and new traffic lights and crossings etc.there is absoutely no need for them. There are a variety of shops along Pensby Road and I spend so much less when I use the local shops paticularly fruit & veg shops. By less I mean about £15 less on a weekend shop if I stay out of the supermarkets. If we forget the old faithfuls and rush to all these new supermarket outlets, I believe we are about to slit our own throats.I suppose it's ok if you don't live too close to one but for those who do their whole life must change to neon lights and cars coming and going every couple of seconds. I've said too much but it's not easy to dilute.

Agreed ... But times are hard and again the majority always Win don't they` on the other hand if supermarkets were denied planning throughout the UK how would you feel about that.
I wouldn't worry to much about the Fish Mongers thou`, he`s prolly selling from the back of his van and would be financially better off

It was Kirkgate Market in Leeds, nothing to do with Birkenhead Market.

One word "Greed" that's all I wil say

ASE71 commented:
You seem to be living in the 90's. All this going to the butcher then the grocer then the fishmonger, its all gone forever..... we go to Tesco, asda, sainsburys and get it all in one place. By objecting to this development your'e not saving the small businesses because they have all gone, its too late. The Supermarkets are too powerful now.

Am happy to confirm I'm living in 2012. Point is, it's NOT too late - yet; not in Greasby. The shops there are doing well, but won't be if Sainsburys arrives.

Given the choice, I'd much prefer to do the whole butcher, grocer, fishmonger, baker thing than supermarkets. I still do occassionally, mainly because I can't find the type/cuts of meat I want in supermarkets. It's a pain having to go so far for what I want, but then the end result is well worth it!

I'd much rather go to the Farmers' Markets and pay that bit extra, knowing it's better quality. I got a leg of lamb for New Year from Tesco and it was rancid when we unwrapped it - it had been stored correctly and was withing date! I got a full refund, but it meant that we had to try and find something else for dinner. At least if I get meat from a butcher or farmer, he can tell me how fresh it is, that doesn't happen with supermarkets.

As for the pubs shutting at 3pm comment - I'd much rather go back to the old opening hours. It might stop so many pished knobends causing trouble and make going for a drink a pleasant experience again.

With the on-going developement of these supermarkets I would imagine that they are more than likely to be thinking ahead. They already have their their own insurance etc. I fore-see in the very near future supermarket estate agency. Once the housing market gets back on it's feet a little, they will buy and sell or just buy to rent. Hard and fast rules, they would make their own rules. They could move into having health centres or clinics. Vetinary practice. Car Sales and mechanics,possibly have their paws in the education system.In fact, as some have pointed out, they agree that it is the way forward, but once these companies have monopoly on all fronts, I think you may change your mind. The sadest thing is that eventually we would all be controlled in the same way. No identity and no thought process. That's a bit 1984, but think about it!

If anyone wants to use/pass on/ignore any of the follwing, then please do! Open source rules OK!


TO:
Wirral Borough Council / Applicant / Agent / Greasby Library
Hoylake Civic Society / Merseyside Archaeology / c.c. File / c.c. Open

Wirral Planning Application APP/11/01418
Development at Red Cat Car Park, Greasby

I am writing as a former resident of Greasby, as historian of Greasby, and at the request of several residents of Greasby.

I have noted that discussions and changes have taken place since the previous application was withdrawn and I welcome those.

Sources:
DASS – Design Access & Sustainability Statement, submitted by applicant
PSA – Planning Statement, submitted by applicant
UDP – Unitary Development Plan, from local Council
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Ancient+lights accessed today

BACKGROUND / SITE / BUILDINGS – notes from visits 10 and 14 May 2011

Figures 2 and 3 and the aerial photograph are all out-of-date, in as far as there is a new Children’s Centre adjoining the Library, on the south side, and this does not appear in the above illustrations, nor can I find any mention of it in the text.

The car park is surrounded by low brick walls on north and south and other parts of the site. These are mentioned in the DASS para 2.2, but, for some reason,
this does not mention that they are all in an extremely poor, probably unsafe condition. The ancient boundary on the west side (behind the public house) is actually crumbling and eroding, and I would therefore not be surprised, if this application were to be passed, that a further application would, in time,
be submitted for complete rebuilding of the walls.

The site was formerly the garden area of the New Inn, replaced in 1962/63 by the present public house. It is also actually adjacent to one of the Listed Buildings in the original village centre, Manor Farm, parts of which date from 1678; such a sensitive location would require, at minimum, a Watching Brief by professional archaeologists, and possibly a full archaeological excavation depending on what came out of the watching brief.



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The library has also been affected several times by flooding on the west side, adjacent to the proposed site, and this they feel is due to a fault with the draining of the site. Whether the proposed development will change this situation in any way is not known, but it should be noted before any work takes place.


PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS

UDP Policy SH01 / PSA para 4.7 “In considering proposals for new retail development, the Local Planning Authority [in this case W.B.C.] will seek to sustain and enhance the vitality and viability of key town centres, traditional suburban centres and other shopping provision in the Borough…”
I fail to see how a new Sainsbury’s or indeed any other brand of supermarket could do this. This particular parade of shops, one of several throughout Greasby, has 100% occupancy and includes a modern Co-op.

This issue has been addressed by the applicants and I can only accept their figures, as there is no way I can duplicate that research. However, the key point still stands, namely that people only have a limited amount of money to spend.

UDP policy SH4 / PSA para 4.8 “…the proposals should not cause nuisance to neighbouring uses or lead to loss of amenity…”. A doctrine of English Common Law that gives a landowner an Easement or right by prescription to the unobstructed passage of light and air from adjoining land if the landowner has had uninterrupted use of the lights for twenty years, the library being 25 years old. Once a person gains the right to ancient lights, the owner of the adjoining land cannot obscure them, such as by erecting a building. If the neighbour does so, he or she can be sued under a theory of Nuisance, and damages could be awarded. However, it is not always this straightforward and a legal opinion should be sought if this happens.

The roof line has been amended in this application and some landscaping – at least a few trees – has been added. This is better, but it is not at all clear if it will in fact obstruct light, or mitigate noise and fumes from mechanical plant or delivery vehicles or electrical interference from the sub-station. Remember that there is a brand new children’s’ reading garden immediate adjoining.


UDP policy HS15 / PSA para 4.9 also states that [it must] “….make adequate provision for off-street car parking”.
This is directly contradicted by the new figures in the revised layout which are even worse than the old one.
At present there are 109 spaces, the previous application reduced this to 63 and this application further reduces it to 56, for both the public house and the new shops. Why anyone would consider that halving the car parking provision whilst at the same time trebling the number of businesses on the site could be felt to be “adequate” beats me. However, the applicants have now provided a detailed study of the figures and projected visits and again I can only accept their figures.



However the actual layout of the parking is the worst part.
(a) it appears that no-one on the design team is disabled or has any experience of disability – and this problem I have seen in far too many car parks. In this case, anyone using the two ‘disabled’ bays need to unload wheelchairs or walking aids directly from the back of the vehicle into a stream of traffic and then actually cross the traffic to get to the two shops. (NO, you can’t back in, or the open doors will obstruct the disabled person getting out)
(b) there are no ‘mother&child’ spaces
(c) there are no spaces at all in front of unit 2, where customers would bring pet carriers and baskets
(d) there is no dropping-off / unloading bay for older or heavily-laden customers using a taxi – wherever they stop they will cause a blockage and yet…
(e) there are spaces for seven ‘normal’ parking bays right outside unit 1, where able-bodied customers would park.
This all needs a total rethink

PSA Paras 5.19 – 5.22 Regarding the possibility of using the former Ethel Austin building, I agree with the applicants – it was worth looking into but it won’t work.

PSA para 5.13 “The proposed development will have a positive impact upon the regeneration of the local centre…”
This is merely an opinion, not a planning policy.

PSA Para 5.31 “….Furthermore it would provide significant benefits to local people by increasing the range and choice of goods available, and provide spin-off benefits for other retailers….” Again, this is merely an opinion, not a planning policy, and there is no reason to suppose that other shops could not start stocking a wider range.


PPS1 / PSA para 4.4 states that “Design which ….fails to take the opportunities available for improving the character and quality of an area and the way it functions should not be accepted”.
and

PPS1 para 36 goes even further and states that “…developments should….optimise the potential of the site to accommodate development….”



THE WAY FORWARD? – A PERSONAL NOTE
This application still fails to grasp the opportunity available – the layout had been amended in many ways but ideally the developers should grasp the nettle, plan on completely rebuilding the public house and the site as a whole. Not only would this then meet the PPS requirements as above, it would give the chance for rebuilding the walls, better car park layout and a whole new appearance to a very tired-looking site.




A second, and very much a second, option would be to refuse the application pending a further application, which would have to meet a longer than usual list of major conditions, including, but not only, the following (in no special order):
1. Developers to allow full access to archaeologists as needed (this is a legal requirement) and pay for all relevant research, as public funding for H.E.R. has now been withdrawn.
2. A detailed tree planting scheme to be submitted (this has been offered) and fully funded by the developers
3. An upgrade of the pedestrian crossings on BOTH the Greasby Road and the Frankby Road to be fully funded by the developers (this seems to be partly offered in the documents – it is not clear which one of the two is referred to)
4. The whole car parking plan to be redrawn
5. The location of the substation, other plant and delivery bays to be agreed with the library staff/relevant WBC officers
6. Sun paths to be clearly marked on all plans and roof lines etc to be so arranged to minimise loss of light to all adjoining buildings
7. Any possible drainage issues to be discussed with the library and works to include mitigation if any such issues are identified
8. Any possible change of use of unit 2 to be refused for a minimum period
9. Opening hours of either unit to never exceed the opening hours of the public house



Yours sincerely,




Jim O’Neil

Very comprehensive, Jim - must have taken ages to put together! Thanks for sharing. I was in the childrens centre this morning for the first time, and the small enclosed part of the outdoor section, which has a canopy, would be completely boxed in by the new development, and the view of the sky blocked.

It is totally misleading and should not be permissible to submit the planning application without the childrens centre being clearly indicated on the plans.