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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,631
Forum Master
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Forum Master
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,631 |
A "friend" of mine is dying (going to have to be VERY careful how I word this), they have a chronic condition leaving them fighting for breath, even walking a few steps can leaving them gasping for air.
Their doctor told this person many years ago that they didn't have long left, but they are strong and they've fought it as the time wasn't right for them and they felt that they could carry on.
They know they will die this year, they know it will be in crippling agony where every breath is like the final gasp of a drowning man, and they don't want that, they don't want to feel like that and they don't want friends or family to see them like that.
They know how they are going to die, they told me last year, we've talked about it many times, not in any morose way but just as a general conversation, if you saw us chatting but couldn't hear the words you would just see two friends having a laugh. It is totally planned, it is their choice, their method and on a day of their choosing. They made sure they have Christmas and New Year out of the way so they won't bring unhappy memories for family left behind.
I'm going to miss my friend, but I understand why they are going to do it, the part I don't agree with is that because of our laws they have to do it alone.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,973
Wiki Guardian
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My sympathy to your friend, you and all concerned Dr. No one should have to die in agony if it's not their choice to, we should have an alternative as long as we are sound of mind. I think the thoughts of everyone that reads you post will be with him.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 143
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 143 |
Aint that the truth! Ive seen some disgusing and upsetting sights.A lot of the time though its the fault of the management short staffing the place , and of course if carers were paid decent wages and felt valued, it could be a different story . I think when done well, NH carers job is HARD HARD HARD both physically and mentally. They should be far better trained and paid more accordingly IMHO. If a carer needs more money to make them do their job of looking after somebody correctly, then unfortunately they are not the right person for the job. In other words a carer should care!
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 143
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 143 |
My sympathy to your friend, you and all concerned Dr. No one should have to die in agony if it's not their choice to, we should have an alternative as long as we are sound of mind. I think the thoughts of everyone that reads you post will be with him. My sympathies too. We do have a choice of course but presently it means a trip abroad in order to accomplish it. This is absolutely crazy. Elizabeth is right, we seem to be living too long and of course the current trend of a reduction of the smoking fraternity has a lot to do with both longevity and costs imposed on the NHS and pension budgets. If smokers generally do 'shuffle off' earlier, then the savings in their on-going NHS care, old age care and pension entitlements suddenly save the country a small fortune. The fact that we are generally living longer and more non-smokers live very much longer is imposing a great deal on the already strained budgets that the chancellor has to deal with. Going back to the main point, if other countries can manage assisted suicide (a rather nasty sounding name) then why can't we? The fact that the people who accompany family members to this overseas clinic have been arrested for aiding and abetting, have never, to my knowledge and I know of a few who have done it, been either charged or jailed for it, speaks volumes for a new law to make the end a little more comfortable and acceptable. Surely we can put in sufficient safeguards!
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868
Forum Veteran
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Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868 |
Personally, the fact that I have the means for a peaceful exit has one great benefit; it leaves me free to LIVE, without fear. For anyone who wants to know how peaceful death can be, here's a couple of videos. The first is a recent film made with Terry Pratchett who accompanied Peter Smedley (of the Smedley foods empire) to Dignitas in Switzerland. Peter had motor neurone disease. http://vimeo.com/45117071The second is of a French woman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_uEmdmSsY [youtube]l-_uEmdmSsY[/youtube]
Last edited by Mark; 15th Jan 2014 3:57pm. Reason: embedded video
Carpe diem.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 3
Wiki Master
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Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 3 |
How people cope with facing what your friend faces Doc, is yet another remarkable ability we, as a human race, have. It is sad news indeed and my sympathies.
In all honesty, I am sure that all who wish for euthanasia or assisted suicide will not have to wait too long in this country. The Liverpool Pathway has been halted but will no doubt be back with additional criteria added for the benefit of all who get old. Like it or not.
What is 'old'? My mother at 89yrs and 10 months skipped up my garden at a party, sat on the grass, conversed with everyone, and got tiddly. She was dead two weeks later. Her time had come. No suffering.
Maybe it's not age we should be discussing but ill health, and that can start at any age, so once euthanasia is introduced, there could be more implications than we realise.
The old saying of 'Be careful what you wish for' springs to mind.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 3
Wiki Master
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Wiki Master
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 3 |
Personally, the fact that I have the means for a peaceful exit has one great benefit; it leaves me free to LIVE, without fear. For anyone who wants to know how peaceful death can be, here's a couple of videos. The first is a recent film made with Terry Pratchett who accompanied Peter Smedley (of the Smedley foods empire) to Dignitas in Switzerland. Peter had motor neurone disease. http://vimeo.com/45117071The second is of a French woman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_uEmdmSsY If euthanasia was made legal alongside assisted suicide, what would you think? Not being funny, but if someone came to you this afternoon, just after you've had your cup of tea and cake, and said' come on old chap, it's your turn today', how would you think? Peaceful it may be, although their choice of timing is not quite right, and maybe your mental state would not be right at that moment, but that doesn't matter because today is your day. Not when you choose, because they know best and will even assist you to do it yourself, if you so wish.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868
Forum Veteran
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Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868 |
Well, Granny, euthanasia and assisted suicide are, as I'm sure you're aware, are totally different things. Euthanasia I'm totally against, which is why I'm suspicious about the situation in Belgium, where physician assisted suicide is legal: in other words, you can ask a doctor to inject you with something which will kill you. I know there are legal safeguards in place, but it still worries me. Contrast this with Switzerland where, if you go to Dignitas, all they can do is to hand you the drug; they can't help you to drink it. If you can't do that yourself, there's no point in going.
Referring back to the link I posted of the French woman, I can't watch that without weeping and with a great feeling of happiness for her.
I should have said, in the Smedley one, the first drink he is given, about 45 minutes before the Nembutal, is an anti-emetic which they give to reduce the risk of vomiting from the very bitter drink.
Carpe diem.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,444
Forum Veteran
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Forum Veteran
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,444 |
Why treat a human differently than you would a dog, or any other animal for that matter. If it's in pain, suffering and the situation is irretrievable you put it down painlessly out of pity. Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with some sort of solution. The snag is that there are too many "experts" who haven't been through the traumas but believe in some discredited "faith" or similar instead of looking at it dispassionately and coming up with a workable formula. Personally if I was beyond all help and only had pain and suffering to look forward to then I hope someone by then would've sorted out a solution. Religion should definitely not be used as an excuse to duck the issue.
My total sympathy with the Dr and his mate, it's a tough one.
Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621
Forum Guardian
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Forum Guardian
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621 |
Re Chris Kays post on joining this. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309407This site shows a single bottle of Cyanide ! SCARY . From what Ive read, its not a nice way to die , nor quick. Is this the last part of several 'drugs' after you're sedated? I wonder why they chose to just show Cyanide? Doesnt instantly make you think they are empathic with potential clients lol. You have linked to a different site. The Exit site I linked to does not "just show cyanide". The bottle is shown because there has been recently a renewed interest in it as a possible method of suicide. Misquoting on a subject as important as this is not appreciated. The salts of cyanide do give a rapid death because the cyanide radical binds with the mitochondria in all the cells of the body and prevents oxygen exchange and leads rapidly to heart failure; time is on the order of a couple of minutes. Only two grams is needed, which is about enough to cover a penny. The problem with cyanide is that it is not always peaceful, which is one of the criteria which Exit attempts to assess. The criteria are: Availability Preparation Undetectability Speed Safety (to others) Storage Cyanide is, in fact, not near the top of the list of available methods. The favourite method is drinking a solution of 10-15 grams of pentobarbital sodium, previously marketed as Nembutal, which is a barbiturate and was popular sleeping medicine up until the development of benzodiazepines in the 1960's. It was very easy to take a fatal dose of a barbiturate; Marilyn Monroe was a victim. No presently available sleeping pill can provide a reliable death. Pentobarbital sodium is still available for veterinary use in euthanasia,. It is also used at the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland where you can go if you are diagnosed with a fatal illness and drink it under medical supervision. Unlike Belgium, Switzerland does not allow active euthanasia but will provide facilities to allow you to take your own life. Unfortunately, it's expensive; about £8000. Pentobarbital sodium is also used for lethal injection in those U.S. states where it is permitted. Also, a couple of states are allowing physician assisted suicide, under extremely stringent rules. They us the same product. Pentobarbital sodium is unpleasant to drink as it is very bitter. People usually wash it down with some form of alcohol, which in fact potentiates its effect. The result is a falling asleep within 3-15 minutes and death a short time after. There are many videos of people at Dignitas taking it. Nembutal is considered by Exit to be the "Gold Standard". It is available as the veterinary liquid from Mexico or as a powder from China. It costs about $400 for a reliably lethal quantity. There's quite a lot of information available free on the Exit site I linked to, but you won't have access to the handbook or the forum without signing up. Apologies Chris, no intention to mislead or take lightly AT ALL . I wastalking about the exit site with reference to the picture of the cyanide bottle being offputting on its own , but I inserted the link to illustrate opinions on the use of Cyanide Id been looking at , in the wrong place. Im actually very grateful for the information in both your posts. I hadnt known much about EXIT , my reference to the single bottle of Cyanide was purely a reaction to an instant impression I thought it conveyed to casual 'passersby' to the site- Obviously though a wrong impression after reading your explanatory post . Id like to make it clear again, Im in no way belittling or being disparaging about the EXIT site, or the topic in hand, so sorry for any misunderstandings . I
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868
Forum Veteran
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Forum Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,868 |
Carpe diem.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 720
Veteran
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OP
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 720 |
What is 'old'? My mother at 89yrs and 10 months skipped up my garden at a party, sat on the grass, conversed with everyone, and got tiddly. She was dead two weeks later. Her time had come. No suffering.
And that, Granny, would be the way I'm sure all of us would hope to go. Healthy, able and of sound mind with no sign of ill health or pain to make us miserable. My point is, I don't understand why there is constant pressure from the media or politicians who interfere in our private lives and nudge us down the path of "live healthy and live longer" when, if at the end of all this healthy living there is no benefit? If by extending our life we are all as lucky as your mum was and are fit until the last moment, then yes the long lifespan is something to revel in. BUT, based on the amount of nursing homes that are popping up all over the country, I'm led to believe that the majority of those who do live longer than they would have if they had not followed a healthy regime, are not enjoying the benefits of longevity.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,621
Forum Guardian
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Forum Guardian
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Posts: 3,621 |
Yes Elizabeth, but the key thought for me , is that they might have had to enter the NH theyre not enjoying, a lot earlier in their lives if they hadnt tried to look after themselves.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 475
Smartchild
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Smartchild
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 475 |
Yes Elizabeth, but the key thought for me , is that they might have had to enter the NH theyre not enjoying, a lot earlier in their lives if they hadnt tried to look after themselves. I do hope everyone look after themselves it does pay off in the end.In all honesty we dont know when our day will come.In third world countries its to believe that no one younger than yourself should die.But it happens,reason to keep there parents who raised them to live longer.by looking after them as they did them.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Wiki Master
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Wiki Master
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What is 'old'? My mother at 89yrs and 10 months skipped up my garden at a party, sat on the grass, conversed with everyone, and got tiddly. She was dead two weeks later. Her time had come. No suffering.
And that, Granny, would be the way I'm sure all of us would hope to go. Healthy, able and of sound mind with no sign of ill health or pain to make us miserable. My point is, I don't understand why there is constant pressure from the media or politicians who interfere in our private lives and nudge us down the path of "live healthy and live longer" when, if at the end of all this healthy living there is no benefit? If by extending our life we are all as lucky as your mum was and are fit until the last moment, then yes the long lifespan is something to revel in. BUT, based on the amount of nursing homes that are popping up all over the country, I'm led to believe that the majority of those who do live longer than they would have if they had not followed a healthy regime, are not enjoying the benefits of longevity. Yes Elizabeth, we are being encouraged to be healthier, eat properly, take exercise etc. at the same time continue to enjoy the never ending programmes about cookery.(British Bake Off) Yummy! At what age are we classed as being old? Probably,the minute we take retirement due to the fact we are considered to be no longer productive. Many of them will not enjoy the riches of retirement, after leading a healthy life. In many cases the old have no families near to them nor are they even wanted to live with their families. Family life is very different to how it was. So, for convenience sake some poor folk who find life difficult on their own are shunted off to a care/residential home but not necessarily ready for it. Once in, the door closes, no more choice. Very tragic and heart breaking for many a son/daughter to make the decision. Then there are now the poor unfortunates who are being left in miserable conditions due to their families not wanting to have to sell the house for paying residential home fees,which the family quite often consider to be their inheritance. The old are manipulated according to who else wishes for what, nothing to do with the unfortunate 'old' person. All decisions are taken away. If at that point we still have some of our marbles left, then yes do what we must, but there is little time between choice and no choice. Just my opinion. Not sure if I have answered what you meant, but beginning to ramble anyway 
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
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