Unfortunately this is a very sad story but I am looking for CLARK or CLARKE or CARR FAMILY surnames who may still live in the WIRRAL area. I am researching family particularly surrounding an informal adoption in Glasgow way back around 1917 (person now deceased) so no comeback it's just her children would like to know more about her origins. I did find the deceased's birth mother & older siblings in Glasgow in 1917 but after time of adoption there was suddenly no trace of birth mother & the other kids in Scotland & was sure they left the country either to England or abroad but after months of research they seemed to have disappeared but I had a breakthrough when in a whim I googled one of the siblings full name NELLIE BELL WOODS CLARK/E (not an E in name on birth records) as it was unusual and to my horror discovered the details of her horrible murder in Birkenhead in Jan 1925 discussed on this forum, her mother had remarried & moved to England sadly Nellie would have been sister to the adopted relative. I have since found lots of newspaper articles & stories on the murder but would like to find if there any surviving sibling descendants of Nellie. Her mother was SARAH ANN CARR (formerly WOOD/S or CLARK/E) from Glasgow her Stepfather PETER SINCLAIR CARR also from Glasgow, Nellie born 1913 had a full brother JOHN WALLACE CLARK/E born 1911 both of them were born Glasgow and would have been 5 & 8yrs when they moved to Birkenhead for their father to find work & at least 4 other half siblings all surname CARR all born Wirral area one sister died at 18 months after a burns accident & another sister was killed at nearly 4yrs old by a car I am so sad for them just how much tragedy can one wee family have but I believe there was at least two other surviving siblings besides JOHN CLARK/E there was a boy & a girl both surname CARR at home with Nellie at the time of her murder but their first names unknown to me, I have to break this News of Nellies murder to family so would also like some positive News to go with it so if anyone recognises any of the above details & know of anyone who might be connected or lived in that area at the time to Nellie or researched the story so might know more of the fate of the rest of the family could you please post. It is unlikely any of Nellies siblings are still alive but there may children to the siblings making Nellie there aunt, Many thanks in advance. I can supply an email address if required. butemacs@sky.com

I really wish you luck in your search. This tragic tale is known to most people of Wirral , it was so sad. Living quite local to where poor Nellie was found it has always interested me and they never did find her murderer did they? Lots of rumours of who it could be..It's really interesting to find out more about the family and as you say the horrible tragedies that befell them. Good Luck and please keep us informed on the outcome Bute.

There were 4 children born and registered in Birkenhead between 1911 and 1925, all registered with a mothers maiden name of Wood.

Annie S Carr, 1918
Elizabeth B Carr, 1920
Violet Carr, 1921
James S Carr, 1923

Annie S Carr died, 1922, aged 4,
Elizabeth B Carr died, 1921, aged 1.

Nellie's father,


Name:
John Wallace Clark

Birth Place:
Glasgow

Death Date:
25 Sep 1915

Death Place:
France and Flanders

Enlistment Place:
Glasgow

Rank:
Private

Regiment:
Highland Light Infantry

Battalion:
12th (Service) Battn

Regimental Number:
1600

Type of Casualty:
Killed in action

Theatre of War:
Western European Theatre

I extended the search for children to 1930 in Birkenhead,

Jewel E Carr, Registered, March Qtr, 1926, Mothers maiden name, Wood.

Jewel E Carr married Christopher R Southall, 1946, Warwickshire.

Mrs Jewel Southall died, Warwickshire, 20 September 2012, birth date, 16 November 1925.

Many thanks Cools for your kind reply it is encouraging to know there is still interest in this story & therefore may lead to some useful info I must say in all my years doing genealogy & family history for many family & friends I have never come across such an interesting but horrific & sad discovery many thanks for your wishes of luck & I surely will keep you updated. Greetings from Glasgow.

Hi bert1 this is absolutely fantastic information & exactly what I was looking for can't believe you have responded & given me info I have been months searching for, I have been able to gather a lot on the family here in Scotland but didn't have the resources to check English records so readily as it gets very expensive so can't thank you enough you are truly a star, thank goodness I found this forum its brilliant!

Yes this is Nellies father I only had some of this info so thanks once again very helpful. also great info on last sibling

Bertione you have given me lots to investigate further & add to my files thanks a million,looks like a busy evening for me.

BUTEMACS, such a sad story. I hope you can piece everything together.

Have you seen this from the National Archives. You might have to write off for a copy.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1257654

Peter Sinclair Carr, born 17 July 1891, Anderston Lanark.
Father, James Stevenson Carr
Mother, Annie Sinclair Carr.

It's likely 2 of the children were named after their grandparents.

Sarah Ann Wood married John Wallace Clark, 1910, Goven.

However, there doesn't appear to be a marriage between Sarah Ann Clark/Wood and Peter Sinclair Carr.

There's a death registered in Birkenhead,

Peter S Carr, birth Abt, 1892, died, June Qtr, 1932.

Thanks very much Granny I think I will have to write off for a copy of this thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Thanks again Bert1 you have been a great help & I found the marriage for Sarah & Peter on Scotlands people website they married in Calton Glasgow in April 1918. I have subscription with Scotlands people & Genes reunited & have just subscribed to find my past to search more on the info you gave me for the Carr siblings & on the English records but I find some records are on some sites & not on others possibly name variations or been transcribed wrong so I'm jumping from site to site, it's a pity the English records don't give much info online unless you buy the certificate where as there is a lot to view on Scotland site so much easier to find details of parents etc. I will just get as much as I can done up here in Scotland then probably need to have a wee visit down to Birkenhead to see for myself, I have been to nearby Liverpool a couple of times but before I knew of the family connection to the area. Suggestions of places in the wirral that might hold records of use would be appreciated.

http://birkenheadtimes.awardspace.com/nelly_9.htm

One thing that I came across last night was this above linked article. Now I don't know who wrote it in relation to journalist or student, or even if it's all completely correct, but that is not too important atm. At the bottom of the page it shows an image of Nellie's Grave. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't.

That really made me upset. Poor little Nellie, no visitors ,maybe not even a stone as times were hard in those days. It would be nice for you to find where she rests.

Birkenhead Archives : https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries...service/visiting-wirral-archives-service

It is most definitely worth giving them a call first, to arrange an appointment as if they need to bring anything from the vaults they may need a day or two. They were always very helpful there.

Thanks Bute,

I notice they dropped their middle names for the marriage.

Unfortunately, depending on what time period it is we have to buy certificates to advance, some sites help fiddle a way through, https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ but only certificates can confirm findings are correct.

Do you know the religions of Peter and Sarah Ann?

It's great that you're always ready to help out with people's query's Bert. Well done...

Thanks Cools,

The area of ground (grave) in Granny's link looks very much like the area at Landican Cemetery, where they moved the graves from St Mary's cemetery, Birkenhead, when Cammell Laird built the dock in the 50s.
http://stmarysbirkenhead.blogspot.co.uk/

Just spotted your post Granny , very interesting .

Cools, and anyone else, that was only part of it. I don't know quite how I didn't see all of it. Many pages to click forward at the bottom.

There is a photo of little Nellie.


http://birkenheadtimes.awardspace.com/nelly_1.htm

One more thing, I went to Landican today and found the graves that were interred from St. Mary's but nothing was seen to denote anything to do with Nellie. It's placed behind the Crematorium and is cut in paths but quite a bit of long grass and a bit unkempt surrounding many of the scattered head stones. Quite a task to be searching on impulse as many of them are also weathered.

So so sad this. Poor little Nellie if only someone had got to their front door earlier but I guess you can say that about any murder. It's fascinating to read all this in so much detail , I'm sure Bute will be really grateful to you Granny. The pictures as well give a real insight into it. So someone definitely got away with murder, I've always heard the rumour it was a policeman who emigrated, who knows? Thanks for that Granny.

There's a list of the Inscriptions from the gravestones of St Mary's, which is in the Reference library in Borough Rd.,

Thanks granny that's really useful I will make appointment visit there when I get down later in the year & it is such a shame the grave is unmarked I will try to find out where it is, just wish i could afford a headstone as it's awful to die that way & not even a marked place of rest.

Sorry no idea of religion bert1 one marriage was church of Scotland which would be protestant but marriage to Peter Carr was done as a civil ceremony.

Well, BUTEMAC hopefully you will turn up what you are searching for, but obviously someone had been thinking about her, so maybe not altogether on her own.......this was 2010.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...rke-11-Rock-Ferry-Birkenhead-10-Jan-1925

An appeal has been made to relatives of a girl murdered 83 years ago - two weeks after flowers were placed where her body was found.

Thanks Bute,

I can't remember where I read it, it mentioned the finding of Nellie's Rosary.

Birkenhead Library have St Mary's burials on film, I'll check if she and other family members are buried there.

Hi Bert. Here is the account from the link I posted above.

" On the following Tuesday a Liverpool Solicitor (Robert Quilliam) allowed the police to use his hound dog (Everset Boy) to track down any scent leading away from the scene of the crime. It led officers out of the alleyway up Spenser Avenue to the waste ground opposite 88 Spenser, making a bee-line north-westwards towards some allotments and found a Child's Black Bead Rosary. The hound then dashed towards Rock Lane West crossing the road and made it's way to a Tool Shed in a field behind Highfield Congregational Church, which it inspected twice. The police did not think the Beads or a child's pair of socks found later on the same piece of ground had any connection with the murder. "

Thanks Granny,

None of the family were at St Mary's, according to the film available at the Library.

I've already checked Flaybrick, all religions and non consecrated ground, not there.

Only other thought,
St Andrews Scottish Presbyterian Church/Graveyard, Conway St, Birkenhead.

Any other thoughts?

Found her,

Bebington,
Jan 15 Nellie Bell Wood Clark, 16 Byrne Ave, Rock Ferry, Grave 3rd class

All at Bebington Cemetery,
All, 16 Byrne Ave, Rock Ferry

Elizabeth Bell Carr, July 22, 1921, Public Grave
Annie Sinclair Carr, Oct21, 1922, Public Grave
Sarah Wood Carr, Clark (Line through Clark) Oct 10, 1931, Private Grave, Section H, grave 610
Peter Sinclair Carr, April 30, 1932, in the same grave as Sarah, also Nellie

Bute,

This is very likely to be James Stevenson Carr, Born 1923 and his sister Violet,

Dover Express, 15 Nov 1946 & Nov 2 1945

Wow ! Well done Bert.

Absolutely fantastic work bert1 can't thank you enough everyone has been so kind helping me with this I can't believe the amount of time you have spent on this it is truly appreciated. Imagine finding the graves that is amazing, I don't seem to be able to view any of the images not sure how to get them.

He's been great for you Bute along with Granny..I have found it very interesting too even though it is such a sad tale, found out lots I didn't know. You have to pay a subscription to Wiki site to enable you to see images Bute.

Another tragedy took place in Rock Ferry, 1925 and I've just added a newspaper report to Futurepasts post,
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1038713.html#Post1038713

At the bottom of that report,

"The grave in which the 3 coffins were entombed adjoins that of Nellie Clark, the victim of the Rock Ferry murder last January and upon it placed several wreaths"

I know Bert1 & granny have been wonderful & I will have to have a think about getting the subscription thanks.

Hi -
I've been following this sad story with interest - some good work and glad you were able to get help.
There's a marriage on 'Free BMD' and 'Cheshire BMD' in the June quarter of 1939 for a John Wallace Clark to Edith Elizabeth Hubbard at St Luke's church Tranmere Birkenhead - a possibility for Nellie's brother?

'Free BMD' has several births from 1939 onwards - using the surname Clark and mother's maiden name Hubbard. I won't post the names as the people may still be living.

If you have a subscription to 'Findmypast' - you should be able to search for John Clark(born 2nd December 1911}? in Birkenhead County Cheshire. Not sure if this is the correct John Clark but one of the children's names matches the name of one of the children on 'Free BMD'?

I had a wander around Bebington Cemetery and was (hopefully) able to find the grave of Nellie and her family. I took a couple of photographs but sadly it is unmarked.

Best wishes with your research

Thank you so much jupiter I will look all that up, very useful information indeed I just can't believe the response I have had from everyone who has helped me built an amazing picture of the family & their details got so much to follow up, visit & collate now I have been staying up all night there is so much uncovered, I even bought a book online called Mersey murders of the 1920's it has a really informative story covering of the murder on Nellie Bell Wood Clark with some more interesting details about the family.This has been one of the best weeks in all my researching family years but also the saddest could not have found so much local detail myself so thanks to all for the kindness shown to me here. I would love to see the photos even if it is unmarked if there was a way of obtaining them from you I could send you my email but don't know how to on this forum for

Bute,

I sent a PM to you 2 days ago, you should see a flashing envelope top of page above "My Stuff" click it will open.

John Wallace Clark was born,2 December 1911.
The child mentioned, 39 register (can't open) was born 1939 and died 1941 at 27 months old.

Buried, Bebington Cemetery,

Phyllis Patricia Ann Clark, 27 Months, June 14, 1941, 389 New Chester Rd, Rock Ferry, Private Grave, IS 610

Death of John Wallace Clark,



John Wallace Clark
Death Age:
51
Birth Date:
abt 1912
Death Date:
abt 1963
Burial Date:
19 Mar 1963
Burial Place:
Manchester, Greater Manchester, England
Cemetery:
Southern Cemetery
Cemetery Section:
BB
Grave Number:
1508
Cemetery Notes:
Consecrated

Edith Elizabeth Clark,



Name:
Edith Elizabeth Clark
Birth Date:
10 Mar 1919
Date of Registration:
Aug 1998
Age at Death:
79
Registration district:
Manchester
Inferred County:
Lancashire
Register Number:
F62B
District and Subdistrict:
0061F
Entry Number:
47

Hi again Bute -

You're welcome. Great that you have been able to find out so much for the family and yourself - it's time well spent and very rewarding.
I'm happy to send on the photos of the grave but no worries if Bert has already done so. (your e-mail address is already on here in one of your posts)

jupiter

Hi Jupiter,

I haven't sent anything yet, I haven't got photo's of the grave site, Bute will be pleased to receive them from you.

That's fine Bert I'll send the photos tomorrow.

Bute - Sorry about the late reply - I haven't been able to do it today but will send you an e-mail tomorrow and attach some photos if that's ok.

Unfortunately the area is overgrown and the grass was a bit high but the photos are clear.

Jupiter

Once again can't thank you enough bert1 I can't believe all you have done & it's been great being able to piece together all you have given me with what I had as that was mostly Scottish stuff before I discovered the branch that moved to Birkenhead I thought it was going to be so very difficult but you have spent so much of your time on this & made it so much easier pointing me in the right direction it's truly appreciated.
Thanks jupiter just whenever you can send photos is fine it is most kind of you.

Bute, you're very welcome.

I wonder what happened to the Carr children after their parents died, they would only have been between 6 and 10 years of age. Put into care perhaps or hopefully John Wallace Clark managed to keep the family together.

I will have to look into that but probably will have to wait till I manage down & search local records. Will update if I find anything.

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I read about the story and being of Scottish descent myself, and hearing about how the family left Scotland hoping for a better life in England, I thought I would go and place some flowers on the grave. Unfortunately, even with the rough location, I was unable to find it.

The section of the cemetery should be "H" from what I read on the previous pages. Does anyone know exactly where the grave and tombstone is? Or if the headstone does indeed have the Carr name on? Unfortunately some of the headstones have fell down and there are a few that are unreadable due to age, and some without names.

I don't think there is a headstone, you may find some help here,

https://www.fobc1868.uk/

Nellie's grave is H 610.

Thanks, I've just looked on the website above and it actually has a map of where the grave is/should be located. Very sad to think there's no headstone. And reading through the thread, I'm surprised Nellie's brother was buried in Manchester and not in Bebington with his sister.

No obvious signs of the remains of a headstone or marker, It was raining so I didn't poke around too much.

Well done DD, with it being a Class 3 grave it's very unlikely ever to have had a headstone, though a paid for burial it was just a step up from a public grave (Paupers grave). For those who are not aware, Public graves are not allowed headstones. Being Class 3 the family had no say where the grave was sited, it was the cemetery management that decided, Private graves; the grave purchaser had some input.

I was looking at the two public grave sections at Landican, the older one at the northern end has headstones on every grave. The newer one at the southern end has small wooden markers. but as they are recent, gravestones may or may not arrive later, I will keep my eye out as I'm there regularly.

Its up to the council whether they pay for a pauper's headstone, as the grave is owned by the council only they can put a headstone in place ie. everybody else is banned from placing a headstone.

I presume there are very few pauper burials these days, most will be cremated. I think the only pauper burials will be where the religion is known and the religion forbids it such as Orthodox Jews (but I presume they would be in a Jewish Cemetery?), Eastern Orthodox and Muslim (but they would be in the Muslim section for directional reasons).

I'm talking about yesteryear and public graves had more than one occupant, many cemeteries had pits with perhaps 10 plus and not always associated with pandemic, etc. In the past paupers graves were never marked with headstones unless special permission was sought, example, family members only heard of the death later.

I've just subscribed to the forum, so hopefully once it kicks in I'll be able to view the attachments. Really appreciate you taking the time to go there and take a photograph. It's interesting reading about the different classes of graves. I read online that there was a fund raiser made for the family at the time, but I don't think most / all of it was spent on the funeral itself. There's lots of contradicting information out there. Regarding the burial itself, I did find a newspaper that reported it took place at 8am, intentionally early so it didn't attract too many on-lookers, although it sounds like it still attracted people who wanted to see and/or pay their respects.

Last post on graves that has nothing to do with Nellie, after this back on topic.

Example, Landican Cemetery, NC2, public grave, 1934-1941 grave 691, 9 occupants, grave 726, at least 5 occupants, gave up looking then.