wirral forums

Cross Hill ,Thingwall

Posted By: granny

Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 9:55am

Not sure if this has been done before but just wondering why Cross Hill, Thingwall, is so called.. Could there be a burial ground under the hump ?
The name would indicate something to do with Christianity.
Posted By: Salmon

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 10:01am

Some good stuff here
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2009/apr/04/secret-britain-vikings-wirral-liverpool
Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 1:37pm

Don't know about a burial ground, Granny, but somewhere on this site is a picture of the vast reservoir under the hill before it was filled with water.
Posted By: atw1960

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 3:03pm

According to the Tithe map of about 1849, the plot name was Cross Hill and this was divided by Barnston Road . I don't know if this has any religious significance , but the plot on the opposite side of the road to the reservoir was supposedly the site of the Viking 'Thing' or meeting place that gave Thingwall its name.
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 6:41pm

It would be great to think that there was at some point a cross there marking the meeting place, which gave the name to the location; but that's just conjecture - or wishful thinking!
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2014 11:36pm

Thanks for all your input everyone. I can't find the info you mention Chris.
The idea that the names Red Hill (or Blood Hill as Prof. Harding thinks it was called) and Rest Hill Road, both in Storeton, have their link to the Vikings is interesting.
That gave the idea to the possibility that they may have had some sort of structure as a centre point of the 'Assembly Field' mainly as they turned towards Christianity after they arrived here in Britain.
Maybe the idea of Cross Hill being a burial mound, is a bit far fetched but the name would have to lend itself to something and there aren't any cross roads there. think

Ha ha Chris... found it. Bottom of the page
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...wall_Poll_Hill_Reservoir.html#Post472576

Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 19th Apr 2014 11:53am

Thanks, Granny; well done. I looked but couldn't find it.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 2nd May 2014 12:37pm

As an update to the enquiry of where the name Cross Hill,came from. Here are the words of the 'man' himself.(Harding)

quote ' Cross Hill could certainly have derived from Old Norse kross.'

Posted By: bigpete

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 24th Aug 2014 3:19pm

Just a quick note before we go on a religious trek - the Vikings were NOT so-called Christians - any reference to a Norse cross should be treated as just that - it meant something (possibly deeply) symbolic to them - no doubt - but nowt to do with Jesus.

Another theory - the area is well-known as a natural spring water centre with around 20-odd springs in the immediate area - maybe you had to Cross numerous little streams - left field I know ;-)
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 2:36pm

Maybe the religious trek does not fall into everyone's wishes, but the evidence that they were Christians is pretty widespread.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...a_1D4qwPK_5gegL&ved=0CCIQsAQ#imgrc=_

Crosses were placed on hills.

With the intriguing thoughts of Erainn on the stones at Arrowe Park, which is only a mile down the road from Thingwall, maybe there could be a connection. Maybe they had camps as they moved about the area a lot, and considering the Assembly Field was on Cross Hill, we know they were fairly local.

Also.... according to the following article :

http://viking.no/e/life/echristianity.htm

The Norwegians had met the "Cross-men" when they landed in England and Ireland. A lot of Scandinavians settled in Britain and you can still find gravestones in England with both the Thor's hammer and a cross .
Posted By: GeeMeister

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 2:57pm

Granny and I won't ever see eye to eye over religion but we respect each others view. I also concur about the Vikings and Christianity. The Viking Age was a period of considerable religious change in Scandinavia. Part of the popular image of the Vikings is that they were all pagans, with a hatred of the Christian Church, but this view is very misleading. It is true that almost the entire population of Scandinavia was pagan at the beginning of the Viking Age, but the Vikings had many gods, and it was no problem for them to accept the Christian god alongside their own. Most scholars today believe that Viking attacks on Christian churches had nothing to do with religion, but more to do with the fact that monasteries were typically both wealthy and poorly defended, making them an easy target for plunder. It is also widely accepted that Christianity was introduced into their homelands between the 11th and 12th centuries.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 3:04pm

The cross symbol appears many times in history long before Christianity was dreamt up.

On the Tithe maps there are three distinct plots of land in the vicinity called Cross Hill. the majority of the land so named is on the reservoir side of the road, there is also a plot called Cross Hay in the middle of them.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 3:19pm

This question is not due to any beliefs on my part, Casper, it is purely as trying to find the possibility that Cross Hill was a name given to the meeting place due to a certain significance adopted at the time and if the name could be dated back to the Viking period. You say that Christianity was introduced to their homelands in 11th/12th centuries, after 995 ad, it was only a matter of 5 years to the 11th century. Crosses from that time in their homelands also had carvings of Jesus on them, and at the moment I am unable to find those to show you.
So it could be connected to religion or as DD says it could be pre- Christian roots. Never the less, could there have been a cross on the hill to give the name Cross Hill? (or then Kross) I have been trying to find the earliest date for the name of Cross Hill, but so far have been unable to come up with anything previous to 1800's. as atw1960 pointed out.

Posted By: GeeMeister

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 3:34pm

Probably one of the better known crosses depicting both pagan and christian beliefs combined is the Gosforth cross in Cumbria. This may be the one Granny is thinking of.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 3:58pm

Gosforth was Anglo Saxon.

The Jelling Stones are the ones I think. Some about it on Wikipedia. King Harald died about 985 AD. Nice picture of stone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelling_stones

[Linked Image]



Posted By: GeeMeister

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 6:30pm

I appreciate that the Gosforth Cross is Anglo Saxon, the Anglo-Saxon period denotes the period of British history between about 450 and 1066 and includes the period of occupancy by the Vikings or so I believe. I thought you may have been refering to this cross as it is carved with Christian symbolism, including a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ. The cross also has Scandinavian images identified as the god Víðarr tearing the jaws of FenrirThor's failed attempt to catch Jörmungandr, the Midgard Serpent. The god Heimdallr holding his horn. Loki bound with his wife Sigyn protecting him. I thought the info may have been pertinent to your point. No worries if not. I had not seen the stones you mentioned, thanks for that.

Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 7:26pm

Sorry Gee, should have acknowledged the Gosforth Stone. It is very interesting and I didn't realise the periods crossed over as such. Beautifully crafted stones aren't they ? How can they tell the difference between Viking and Saxon ?

what is this ? laugh

http://assemblyfield.blogspot.co.uk/p/the-cross-hill-recordings.html
Posted By: GeeMeister

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Apr 2015 8:19pm

No worries Granny, it's easy to forget that the name of a period can also refer to its people too. There will always be a crossover period as there is with iron age and stone age for example. The carvings are brilliant, I took a keen amature intrest in such things after being stationed in Belize and visiting virgin Mayan digs and seeing their carvings. I believe the differences between Viking and Saxon is dependent on the type and context of the carvings bearing in mind that a saxon stone mason may have been 'employed' by a viking to make a carving for him and vice verca.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 15th Apr 2015 5:59pm

Fascinating ! It is with wonder how beautiful these many artifacts were made.

My belief continues to flow in the direction of Cross Hill being related to 'a cross' whether it be Saxon, Viking or Christian. Mainly due to the article which stated that Vikings were met in England by 'Cross-Men'.
Nearly all place names in this country have a link to ancient roots, and why would the same not apply to Thingwall ? It may have been later, not necessarily to do with Vikings, but still an interesting thought, although never to be proven.

Maybe 'Cross Hay' could throw some light on it.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 15th Apr 2015 6:42pm

One other point is the ancient church of St. Decan at Landican.(Llan-tegan’)

Literally, a stones thrown from Cross Hill ,Thingwall , and along the lanes or over the fields as it would have been then. Maybe that could be the connection ?

Posted By: Greenwood

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 16th Apr 2015 7:46am

Landican is an intriguing place, too - recorded in the Domesday book as Landechene; I think the name is also said to have derived from the Welsh for oak - i.e. oak church/Woodchurch. I'm not sure about that, as the Welsh for oak is derwen/derw. Names change quite a lot over the centuries. the Cross Hill name might also come from a market-type meeting cross, to mark the imprtant gathering place. Interesting topic!
Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 16th Apr 2015 9:06am

Landechene looks as if it's derived from the French for oak: chêne. If the "Lande" part is also from French, that means moor, but I suspect it's from the Welsh for church: "llan".
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 16th Apr 2015 11:50am

Have found this article , which puts another translation on the origin of Landican. Even more possible, as the copy posted on the link from the Lancashire and Cheshire, would indicate that Llann Aedhagain was the name used by the writers of Norse Runes in the Isle of Man.

https://keeganfamilytree.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/aedhagain/

"" Seagha’s two sons were Olchobar (O’Shea) and Aedhagain. We know little about this Aedhagain, but he may well have been a prolific priest or maybe even an Irish Saint.

Derry Keighan in Antrim seems to bear his name, as does Landican (Llann Aedhagain) in the Wirral near Liverpool, and Landican in the Isle of Man.""

Unfortunately ,I cannot locate Landican on the Isle of Man map. Can anyone else find it ? Maybe it is close to Tynwald. (Isle of Man's version of Thingwall)

I suppose that both of them could be of Gaelic origin. Having walked along the lanes at Thingwall this am. I think the land would have been more wooded than fields at that period, but never the less, old pathways lead in various directions, one down to Bebington, another which goes across to Landican, which was across the farm fields, but I believe certain residents (new comers) had part of it blocked. Cross Hill is certainly the highest point and if it was open space , could have been the place for any form of ceremony, religious ,Pagan or otherwise.(i.e. apart from the Viking Assembly) Also, I imagine the church at Landican would have held the land in the immediate areas, stretching to a fair distance. Any ideas ?
Posted By: YinYang

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 16th Apr 2015 3:08pm

I would think it likely, that Woodchurch was originally part of Landican, and Holy Cross Church is the site of the original 'lann', not modern day Landican or Thingwall. Especially considering it's obvious antiquity, and the fact that it stands in a curvilinear churchyard.

We tend to think of Landican now as the area around the cemetery, but it probably once covered a much larger area (including Woodchurch).

As to the name Cross Hill, well that is somewhat vexing...

Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 17th Apr 2015 12:23pm

Well hello Ying Yang ! Long time no see, and it's noted you have now extended your 666 posts , you little devil laugh

You could very well be correct and as there is a Saxon wheel cross built into the wall of the chancel, it could indicate that the original building was on the same point, near enough. However, if so, it is still not much more than a mile to Cross Hill, and less to the little hamlet of Landican Village down Landican Lane,(not exactly where the cemetery is) so the possibility is still the same.

I am still of the opinion that due to Llan (Welsh/Celtic) meaning either church/parish or a hamlet in rural habitation, Dican could be Deacon, or as Chris says likely Chene, meaning oak. So we would have Llan de Chene. Village of Oak ,but I don't understand why the Normans would incorporate Welsh and French into a name place. The 'de' was introduced by the French in or soon after 1066.

One other possibility is from decan, which is appears to be used in late 16th century Latin for a chief of a group of ten or another possibility is
quote " Several pages explain the decans very well.. Decans is an ancient word; pre-Egyptian. Believing many gods controlled their lives, Egyptians vainly slipped the word over to their belief of the stars telling them about themselves( astrology ) instead of the stars declaring God's plans and identity to humans, animals, birds and sea creatures ( astronomy )."

I like that possibility.

The Celts (Ketoi)was the name given by the ancient Greeks. So with the connection between ancient Greece and Egypt that explanation could be feasible.
If the name is as old as that, I do not think that any Saint would have been named. St. Tegan is supposedly an ancient Welsh Saint, and hardly mentioned, with translation meaning beautiful or pretty, but my thoughts are with the fact that I don't believe any of them knew about Saints as the first Saint was only canonised in 993AD or a slight possibility of 804AD.
I think all this will have to go to the vote ! laugh

In addition bringing us back to the 19th century, I found this which is 'History of the Royal Rock Beagle Hunt'. Give some interesting descriptions of areas , including mentioning a pretty little vale at Barnston named Fiddler's Folly,(maybe that's where the phantom fiddler originates from?) on page 132. I assume that will mean 'the dip' at Barnston. On page 176 it mentions a cottage in Barnston Wood. They are under Landican search.
In the search box, put your own place of interest, something may come up .

https://archive.org/stream/historyofroyalro00cain#page/n5/mode/2up
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 17th Apr 2015 1:01pm

I spotted Fiddler's Folly on the maps which intrigued me, its close to some rough lands (plot called "Rough and Pits in Cross Hill") so "folly" might just mean "mistake" as in someone purchasing/leasing unusable land.

Fiddler's Ferry name is thought to come from corruption of Adam Le Vicleur surname but I doubt if there is a connection but it shows how much pronunciation and spelling can change over the years.
Posted By: YinYang

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 17th Apr 2015 3:38pm

Originally Posted by granny
Well hello Ying Yang ! Long time no see, and it's noted you have now extended your 666 posts , you little devil laugh


...I think you'll find my visits ceased around Halloween, granny, and I then went 'underground', so to speak. But only to escape the cold! It's springtime now (a time of resurrection) and I see you're resurrecting the spectre of your Fiddler's Folly thread.

I may have to unleash the hounds! devil
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 18th Apr 2015 8:14pm

Ha ! Pleased you are back up again with the sun shining on you. Don't keep disappearing like that, we worry in case you've fossilized.

With regard to Fiddler's Folly, I have a book in front of me, Tingvelle, by Greg Dawson. There is a page of maps with field names going back to 1850. Although I can't find Fiddler's Folly , there is a field named 'Folly' behind the Cross Hill reservoir, which will be off Gills Lane. Owned by R. Vyner from Thingwall Farm (which was leased) So still looking for the darned Fiddler . Maybe Vyner was the Fiddler !

Next to Folly field at road level and now on the reservoir land and the corner of Gills Lane/Barnston Road is Rowens and Pits, also owned by R Vyner. Rough and Pits does not appear on the maps which I look at, DD and I have not been able to spot it anywhere else either.

There are some lovely field names; 'money pit', 'two little loaves', 'two big loaves','whelpers' 'shocking dale' and 'the mistake' to name but a few.

Lovely smile







Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 19th Apr 2015 11:34am

Fiddler's Folly is Plot 100, on the south of Thingwall Common.

Rough and Pits is plot 29 on the south of cross hill (western side of road).

Both are in Barnston Dale
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 19th Apr 2015 1:51pm

That would explain. This map only goes up to the Thingwall/Barnston boundary. Thereis a plot on the fringe of the boundary called Folly Croft, and three other plots named as 'Croft' all next to each other, also right on edge of Thingwall side the boundary. R Vyner owns those too. I imagine they might all be in the same location where Murrayfields is now.

Thanks DD.

Another interesting bit of information is cannon balls, used in the Civil War, were found in Barnston Dale a number of years ago.

I love this area, probably because it is relatively unspoilt and history of the land is easier to follow.

Posted By: YinYang

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 21st Apr 2015 2:26pm

The first edition 1 inch to the mile O/S map of Wirral shows Fiddler's Folly quite clearly, granny. Not sure exactly when the area was surveyed (probably 1830's - 40's). But whatever the 'Folly' was, it was probably there pre-1850's.

I think you will find that those pesky fiddle players were always trying to challenge me to a contest...

boohoo

Posted By: YinYang

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 22nd Apr 2015 2:25pm

...'The Folly' is also featured on Bryant's Map of 1831.

Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 22nd Apr 2015 3:40pm

Thanks for that Ying Yang. I will do wee search.

I wonder which is the earliest map which shows them.

The map in Greg Dawson's book, which I was looking at, doesn't seem to line up so perfectly (that might be me) and it shows three areas named as Cross Hill all with different boundaries.

Will take more time to study when the sun goes behind the clouds in a day or two.

The pesky Phantom Fiddler is next due to appear New Year 2017...
Posted By: YinYang

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 25th Apr 2015 3:00pm

Originally Posted by granny
Thanks for that Ying Yang. I will do wee search


No need to look far for your 'wee' search, granny. There are plenty on Wiki who will happily take the pish... raftl

Posted By: locomotive

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 25th Apr 2015 7:48pm

After reading Granny's mention of Thingwall, I was inspired to dig out Greg Dawson's book "Tingvelle". On the map (1850) on page 93, on the right hand side is a list of who owns the fields, the ones marked 11 belong to Fiddler's Folly. I've had the book for some time, I bought it years ago when I was seriously into Genealogy a few of my ancestors are mentioned in it. It's a cracking read anyway.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 26th Apr 2015 9:11am

Locomotive, you're right, it's a brilliant book and full to bursting with the local information. I've had mine about 15 year and bring it out again and again, there's always something new to find.

If anyone should be interested in a copy, as I'm not sure if they are still in print, there is one for sale on ebay at the moment.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tingvelle..._DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5418cd2204
Posted By: jimbob

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 27th Apr 2015 7:19pm

granny. have just a copy off ebay, thanks for the info
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 30th Apr 2015 2:03pm

Goody ! Hope you enjoy it ,Jimbob smile
Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 30th Apr 2015 2:26pm

And now I've bought a copy from Amazon grin
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 30th Apr 2015 2:39pm

Cool ! Hope you find it interesting, Chris.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Jul 2015 3:18pm

With thanks to the gentleman who I have just mentioned on the Woodchurch Stone thread, he also gave some more information about Thingwall.

There were two wells on the farm down Thingwall Lane , there was a path behind Barnston Road by Woodbank, leading to the Irby Mill, and as it crossed Mill Fields, that is where Mill Fields got the name from.

When the foundations were dug for the Basset Hound, there was a wattle and daub building of some sort unearthed and another well. It was filled in and everything was left things in place.

He gave me a wonderful description of characters and names and the tricks they got up to. As some of these people probably have relatives around and about, I feel it unethical to relate such things.

There was also a mortuary behind Thingwall Open Air Children's
Hospital on which Murrayfields now stands, where he used to catch rabbits because they had so little food it was the only way to survive.

My one wish is to have a contraption to record what he says. My memory is not as good as it was, and nowhere near as good as his is, even now.

This doesn't relate to Cross Hill, but I had to put it somewhere at the moment.



Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Jul 2015 3:40pm

Looking at the map of Thingwall, I think he may have meant Thingwall Mill, rather than Irby Mill. There again, who am I to argue with such a man ?
Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Jul 2015 11:13pm

Granny; you should have a look on e-bay and get a little portable recorder.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f..._nkw=digital+voice+recorder&_sacat=0
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 14th Jul 2015 11:48pm

Thanks Chris. Being a total failure with technical stuff, I usually pay no interest and consequently had no idea these things existed. Just what the doctor ordered. happy
Posted By: chriskay

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 15th Jul 2015 7:39am

To be honest, granny, I've no idea if the cheapos are any good. If it were me, I'd try bidding on one with a recognised name: Philips, Olympus, Sony etc. Something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Philips-V..._DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aadacb1f6
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 15th Jul 2015 9:14am

I agree, I've got a chinese one and its a nightmare to use. Every-time you stop and start recording it opens a new file (ie no pause facility), every button is multifunctional, some things you have to go through the menu, the screen uses a lot of indeterminate symbols which makes translating proto-Elamite tablets look easy etc etc.
Posted By: granny

Re: Cross Hill ,Thingwall - 15th Jul 2015 9:25am

That's a good idea, Chris. Will have a search later as there is still a day left on that one.

If you have your book 'Tingvelle' handy, you might like to see the map of field names.

If you look for 'Thing Well'. That is on the land of Thingwall Farm and where he said there was a 'well' x 2 . This is also of interest in relation to the old name of 'Tingvelle',
as 'velle' on it's own from Latin, means 'wish, want, be willing'.
Do you see what I'm getting at ? Maybe this is the origin of how the name 'Wishing Well' came to be ? (not necessarily from Thingwall, before someone reads things differently)

Just as a matter of interest, what's left of Thingwall Farm is a heap of rubble buried under a mass of wild growth.
© 2019 Wirral - wikiwirral.co.uk