wirral forums

BIRDS HOUSE

Posted By: hoseman

BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 2:48pm

Birds House, as stated in previously in Wiki History, is the oldest house on the Wirral. An old farmers house made from probably local sandstone and erected in 1621 according to the date stone.
This house has now been vacated by its elderly owner and was boarded up on Thursday.
Im not sure of its future, maybe restoration or sale.
It has been extended quite a bit in its 400 year life and butresses erected on the outside walls to strengthen them.
Any more info on this property. Have always been interested by this house, its build, history etc.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 3:40pm

Well that's just great, peel holdings will get this, I can see it now, it's only the other day I mentioned about this house being next! Fuming mad
Wish I could buy it, it needs someone to buy and restore it back to it's former glory.
When this house was made there would of been fields all around with cows ect, there was a lake down where the docks have been filled in called Wallasey Poole (I think), my, it's Wierd just how much the area has changed since this house was built.

Image the people who have worked in that house over the years, wonder what they did for a living, what life was like back then and was it an expensive house?

I reckon thesandstone may have came from the breck quarry?
There were two old properties in Wallasey village next to the black horse but they were ripped down and they were listed!!!
frown
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 6:43pm

Grrr dispicale!
Went past this on way home from work this evening, all boarded up and waiting for the local vandals to strike.
I can see the headlines now....

"oldest house in Wirral in arson probe"

frown
Posted By: tigertiger1953

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 7:22pm

Oh here we go again......dry rot, arson, dangerous structure, etc etc and the oldest house goes to the development God. We need to be proactive here and make sure it doesn't end up like the Pool Inn!I remember when younger seeing a workman with a sledgehammer deliver the coupe de grace to the Liscard town boundary stone in Church Street. I tried to explain that this stone was illustrated in the Rise and Progress of Wallasey but was told to f... o..
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 7:28pm

You gonna start a petition, tiger?
Posted By: Capt_America

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 23rd Oct 2010 8:39pm

Wirral borough council get involved,...there's a fire,.....the end.
Posted By: tigertiger1953

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 8:17am

Someone should, or maybe better start a petition to get rid of WBC. One day all we will have is blocks of flats. Bird's house was nearly burned down on the 12th March 1941 when the roof was hit by German incendaries. A platoon of soldiers climbed up and put them out and saved it. They then refused the owner's offer of tea and sandwiches and went back to their barracks Darley Dene which was hit by the landmine minutes later killing most of them.
Posted By: davew3

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 9:08am

Have you informed English Heritage of Birds House and your worry's using an edited version what might happen to it.

English Heritage
3rd floor Canada House
3 Chepstow Street
Manchester M1 5FW
Telephone:0161 242 1400

Email:northwest@english-heritage.org.uk
Posted By: hoseman

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 11:36am

I always thought this WAS a listed property!
Originally a farm dwelling as the area was mainly open fields.
Dont know about WBC saving it....they are just as bad as the developers.
As mentioned, it will be deemed "dangerous" and torched eventually!!!
You read it here first....AGAIN!!!!
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 1:04pm

Originally Posted by hoseman
I always thought this WAS a listed property!
Originally a farm dwelling as the area was mainly open fields.
Dont know about WBC saving it....they are just as bad as the developers.
As mentioned, it will be deemed "dangerous" and torched eventually!!!
You read it here first....AGAIN!!!!


Your right hoseman, this is grade two listed...
4.48 At the western end of Limekiln Lane, immediately to the north
of the site, stands ‘The Old House’ [3091/1]. Otherwise
known as ‘Bird’s House’, this small 17th century stone-built
house on the corner of Limekiln Lane and Poulton Bridge Road

is probably the oldest extant structure in the vicinity of the
site, and is Grade II listed.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 1:22pm

What is worrying is that the pool in was also mentioned in this very report!

Quote

4.1 This assessment has been prepared by Waterman CPM Limited
(WCPM) on behalf of Peel Holdings Plc to inform and support
the Baseline Study for Wirral Waters. The location of the main
areas of interest, as well as the wider study area, is shown on
Plan 1(2938/27).

Posted By: uptoncx

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 4:24pm


Grade II listing means it cannot (legally) be demolished without getting listed building consent, the Pool was not listed, and so could be demolished without any permissions. (Doesn't stop the 'mysterious' fire though.)

Listing details for Birds' House from English Herritage

Building Details:

Building Name: THE OLD HOUSE
Parish: WALLASEY
District: WIRRAL
County: MERSEYSIDE
Postcode: CH44 5SP
LBS Number: 444453
Grade: II
Date Listed: 20/05/1952
NGR: SJ3019091020

Listing Text:

SJ 39 SW WALLASEY LIMEKILN LANE
(west side)

House. Lintel inscribed: "W M/1627" (William and Mary
Bird). Stone with slate roof. 2 storeys with attic, 3
bays. Coped gables with kneelers. Single-chamfered-
mullioned windows of 3 and 5-lights with label moulds to
ground floor, 3:2 + 2:1-light windows to 1st floor. 2
gabled 2-light dormers. Entrance has large inscribed
lintel with label mould. Returns and rear similar. Rear
has brick, but that to right partly of stone. Interior not
inspected but described in E. Mercer, English Vernacular
Houses, pp 142.

Listing NGR: SJ3019091020
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 9:57pm

Found a few photos of Bird's House in the late 50s.

Attached picture Front_Elevation.jpg
Attached picture Rear_Elevation.jpg
Attached picture Door_Lintel.jpg
Attached picture Interior_1.jpg
Attached picture Interior_2.jpg
Attached picture Interior_3.jpg
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 10:12pm

This house was the Nan of old friends who we lost contact with. About 10 years ago, actually! We did make some sort of contact with the family about 4years ago and 'Nan' was staying there, whether she was still officially the occupant of Bird House, i dunno.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 10:16pm

Originally Posted by RUDEBOX
This house was the Nan of old friends who we lost contact with. About 10 years ago, actually! We did make some sort of contact with the family about 4years ago and 'Nan' was staying there, whether she was still officially the occupant of Bird House, i dunno.
*there, as in the family home( her daughter and family) , not the Old House.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Oct 2010 10:25pm

PM me for contact details of the last occupiers descendants. I will not give this info out willy nilly. But it could be valuable to those with interest in saving the place, or researching the History.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 3:59am

How where did you get those photos martyfred?
Posted By: tigertiger1953

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 7:15am

Great pictures. Maybe the National Trust will buy it.
Posted By: derekdwc

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 10:06am

like the pics
Have you got a time machine

more more local pics please

ps
can someone try to match the pics with some present day pics from same positions please
Posted By: davew3

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 11:39am

Sent an email off to English Heritage,lets see if they get involved or at least keep an eye on what happens to it before it happens.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 12:32pm

Good show clap
Posted By: little_pob

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 1:47pm

Saw someone taking photos of it yesterday as I drove past around 4pm.

From the camera and lens, I'm thinking the guy was at least a photography enthusiast (rather than an estate agent).

(No guarantee it was a wiki member though, so I'll see what I can take next weekend if noone posts any in the mean time)
Posted By: davew3

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 2:18pm

Received a reply from English Heritage,basically cutting the email down to,my edit. If we are concerned about the condition of the building we should contact the conservation officer for Wirral. thumbsdown


email :builtconservation@wirral.gov.uk
0151-606-2004
Technical Services dept
Canning Street
Birkenhead
CH41 1ND

If anybody is going by that way can they pop in and tell them.





Posted By: chriskay

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 10:23pm

Originally Posted by summer01
and the fireplace oringanil features more of a country house i would say


Nothing "country house" about that fireplace; identical with the one in my Gran's house in Windsor St.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Oct 2010 10:25pm

ahem
Posted By: davew3

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 9:03am

Just a bit off topic. offtopic

Chriskay,you said Windsor street,I presume Birkenhead if so do you have any pictures of the street as my dad and his family lived there, and from what I can see the rest of his family,bros and sisters lived in the area.

On topic,I can remember my sister and her boyfriend and mates taking a fireplace out like that in our house in Lowther st,as it out of date, wasn't with the new styles etc.
Posted By: kimpri

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 9:53am

Originally Posted by davew3
Just a bit off topic. offtopic

Chriskay,you said Windsor street,I presume Birkenhead if so do you have any pictures of the street as my dad and his family lived there, and from what I can see the rest of his family,bros and sisters lived in the area.

windsor street, look here

On topic,I can remember my sister and her boyfriend and mates taking a fireplace out like that in our house in Lowther st,as it out of date, wasn't with the new styles etc.
Posted By: MissGuided

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 9:54am

Don't we have a big history section for this kind of thing? think
Posted By: uptoncx

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 1:33pm

Originally Posted by kimpri1
Originally Posted by davew3
Just a bit off topic. offtopic

Chriskay,you said Windsor street,I presume Birkenhead if so do you have any pictures of the street as my dad and his family lived there, and from what I can see the rest of his family,bros and sisters lived in the area.

windsor street, look here

or here.

On topic,I can remember my sister and her boyfriend and mates taking a fireplace out like that in our house in Lowther st,as it out of date, wasn't with the new styles etc.
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 3:39pm

This was my nans house and has been in my family for the last 163 years! I'll put recent pics up
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 8:24pm

...if it's not too cheeky to ask, can you say if your Nan actually owned the house, or was she a tenant? The house and much of the land around this end of The Pool originally belonged to the Vyner family which is why it probably remained untouched for so long.



Posted By: jenscho

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 8:38pm

was stopped on the hill today waiting to do a right turn onto Poulton Road and a lad in a high vis and hat was having a right good look around the garden bit, then he jumped over the wall and got off pretty quick. I don't think he was a workie coz he didn't have a van or anyone else with him. It would be a shame such a lovely house go to ruin like so many others have...
Posted By: tigertiger1953

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Oct 2010 10:10pm

I passed it today. I hope the impressive boarding up is a precaution against vandals. Scares me though.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Oct 2010 5:03pm

This afternoon the For Sale by Auction sign is up!
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Oct 2010 6:07pm

Originally Posted by Tatey
This afternoon the For Sale by Auction sign is up!


Are people not allowed to view before they bid? confused
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Oct 2010 6:21pm

my family just rented the house and it still belongs to the Vyners. They are selling it now.
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Oct 2010 6:23pm

We had to tell the landlord to board the house up purely for the fact that there is an alarm and because the windows are so thin anything sets it off.
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Oct 2010 6:24pm

the door can still be opened so presumiingly yes.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Oct 2010 10:30am

Anymore photos?
smile
Posted By: tigertiger1953

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Oct 2010 11:02am

Well that's reassuring. Let's hope whoever buys it has the cash and the desire to keep it as it should be kept.
Posted By: delta6

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Nov 2010 1:49pm

http://www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-...ctioned-later-this-month-80491-27586024/

Wallasey’s oldest house to be auctioned later this month
Nov 3 2010 by Lorna Hughes, Wallasey News

THE oldest house in Wallasey is going under the hammer later this month.

“The Old House” on Limekiln Lane was built in the early 1600s.

Although a plate on the building gives a date of 1697, some historians believe construction work started as early as 1627.

The three-floor sandstone building recently became vacant after its occupant, a woman in her 90s who was born at the property, moved out.

It will be auctioned by Birkenhead-based property consultants Smith and Sons.

The firm is expecting the sale to attract keen interest from historians and buyers in the market for a family home. It says the property, which has a guide price of Ł60-70,000, is “in need of some modernisation and upgrading” but has “great potential”.

Chris Johnson, auctioneer at Smith and Sons, said: “The sale of the Old House offers someone an opportunity to grab a great piece of Wallasey history that is being marketed at a very reasonable guide price.

“We look forward to showing this property and to seeing the interest this brings on the day.”

The house is also known as “Bird’s House” after builder William Bird.

It will be one of 20 lots auctioned at the Village Hotel, Bromborough on November 23, starting at 2pm. For more information visit www.smithandsons.net

Posted By: Razzi

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Nov 2010 3:20pm

I always wondered what it looked like inside. Wish i had the money to buy it, It will be a terrible day if peel holdings get it.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 10th Dec 2010 12:25pm

YO! MARIEJANE, WHERES THOSE PHOTOS??????
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 10th Dec 2010 2:21pm

Link

It's still up for sale according to the Auctioneers website.

Lots of historical info re the house towards the bottom of the page. Title deeds, Wills, Land registry info etc
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 11th Dec 2010 9:52am


Thanks for the info Lisa, and for the link on St.Johns.

I was led to believe that the auction for this place took place a couple of weeks ago.

Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 12th Dec 2010 8:41am

Originally Posted by geekus

Thanks for the info Lisa, and for the link on St.Johns.

I was led to believe that the auction for this place took place a couple of weeks ago.



According to the Auctioneers website, it went to auction on the 23/11 but looks like it didn't sell frown

Posted By: only1pj

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Dec 2010 7:11pm

The house is now up for sale and appears on the RightMove website.

Right Move
Posted By: woodley

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Dec 2010 12:12am



ghost
I would LOVE to buy this house. I wonder if it's haunted!!
Posted By: poodlepup

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Dec 2010 12:37am

wish i could get rid of my house then i would love to buy this
no chance selling mine in the near future though no one can get a decent mortgage
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Dec 2010 10:07am

Has anyone arranged a viewing yet smile

I've been looking on Ancestry and the Jones family lived in the house from the early 1870's. They were still there in 1911 so i'm assuming MarieJane (would love to see the pics you mentioned you have of the housecamera) is descended from this family.
Posted By: clvm13

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Jan 2011 9:05am

Hi,
In answer to your haunted question, I remember my Dad talking to Mrs Bird in the early eighties outside the house, she told us a story about a highwayman who, can't remember the reason, hanged himself in the kitchen. Apprently beneath the spot, in the flagstones on the floor was a mark of a horses hoof, stained red with what was supposed to be his blood. Mrs Bird said that however hard she scrubbed she couldn't get the stain to come off. Never sure if this was true or not, but would love to see the kitchen floor!
x
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Jan 2011 4:34pm

Great story! Funny how blood never used to wash off anything in those days isn't it? Although I can't understand what his horse was doing in the kitchen anyway!

Wonder if the highwayman was the same one connected with the legend of 'The Boot' in Liscard?
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Jan 2011 4:54pm

Did MJever get to post them? sherlock
Originally Posted by _Ste_
YO! MARIEJANE, WHERES THOSE PHOTOS??????
Posted By: clvm13

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Jan 2011 5:18pm

Yeah, there are about a million holes in the story! what WAS the horse doing in the kitchen? Making itself a brew?! Great story from Mrs bird though. I wanted to ask to see the mark, but was very young and didn't think it would be very polite!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Jan 2011 11:39pm

...maybe it was a clothes horse? Or perhaps the highwayman was eating whilst "on the hoof"??

Oh, well. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?!!


Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 4:23pm

Just to put everyone's mind at rest (hopefully) I am in the process of buying The Old House, and as an architect with a lifelong passion for historic buildings will be spending the next few years lovingly restoring it to something resembling its original beauty. Once I have possession of it I'll be very happy to welcome anyone who would like to see inside, or even to help with the work! It's been fascinating reading all the posts above and I look forward to more revelations about its history.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 4:51pm

thumbsup welcome to wiki.
Posted By: kimpri

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 4:54pm

hiWelcome to wiki smile
Posted By: sparky

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 4:57pm

Welcome, it's great that you are going to restore the house and I would love to come and look round once you have bought it.
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 6:02pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Just to put everyone's mind at rest (hopefully) I am in the process of buying The Old House, and as an architect with a lifelong passion for historic buildings will be spending the next few years lovingly restoring it to something resembling its original beauty. Once I have possession of it I'll be very happy to welcome anyone who would like to see inside, or even to help with the work! It's been fascinating reading all the posts above and I look forward to more revelations about its history.


Great news smile

Posted By: TRANCENTRAL

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 6:42pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Just to put everyone's mind at rest (hopefully) I am in the process of buying The Old House, and as an architect with a lifelong passion for historic buildings will be spending the next few years lovingly restoring it to something resembling its original beauty. Once I have possession of it I'll be very happy to welcome anyone who would like to see inside, or even to help with the work! It's been fascinating reading all the posts above and I look forward to more revelations about its history.


fantastic news mate clap welcome to wiki bud hi
Posted By: Capt_America

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 6:46pm

Welcome to the WikkiWirral machine.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 6:54pm

That's fantastic news, a big welcome to Wirral and wiki hi
Posted By: hoseman

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 7:34pm

Welcome to the asylum and thankyou for saving some of our history!
I think this calls for a Wiki garden party!! (open day!)
I also would be interested in the invitation to look around, having posted the first story (i think)

PS, i know a good electrician!! But dont feed him or you will never get rid of him!!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Jan 2011 11:12pm

Wiki Open Day,I'll do the food!
Originally Posted by hoseman
Welcome to the asylum and thankyou for saving some of our history!
I think this calls for a Wiki garden party!! (open day!)
I also would be interested in the invitation to look around, having posted the first story (i think)

PS, i know a good electrician!! But dont feed him or you will never get rid of him!!
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 8:32am

Good news indeed. If you need any assistance with the building side of the renovations, people on here & myself know experts in the works involved in old buildings. I have previous experience with a listed building in Wallasey, so if you require any help, just ask. I would also love to have a look around at some time.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 1:35pm

Thanks for all your welcomes and good wishes. I was already thinking about getting in a barrel of beer with plenty of food and inviting anyone interested to see the house and bring their work clothes to help strip back all the multiple layers of wallpaper and lino. I will also need an electrician and a gas fitter quickly as the house was broken into while empty and a lot of copper pipe ripped out, including the gas supply, so any recommendations will be gratefully received.
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 1:49pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Thanks for all your welcomes and good wishes. I was already thinking about getting in a barrel of beer with plenty of food and inviting anyone interested to see the house and bring their work clothes to help strip back all the multiple layers of wallpaper and lino. I will also need an electrician and a gas fitter quickly as the house was broken into while empty and a lot of copper pipe ripped out, including the gas supply, so any recommendations will be gratefully received.


I wish i lived closer as i'd love to help.

When are you due to exchange on the house if you don't mind me asking?
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 10:09pm

We'll hopefully complete the purchase around the end of February - I don't want it to stay boarded up a day longer than necessary.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 10:31pm

Yer. Got my boiler suit and scraper at the ready!! laugh
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Jan 2011 10:36pm

1. Rudebox- paper scraper
2. Plusone -paper/ lino scraper
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Posted By: hoseman

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 31st Jan 2011 10:57pm

1. Rudebox- paper scraper
2. Plusone -paper/ lino scraper
3. Hoseman - all rounder and beer drinker!
4.
5.
6.
7.
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Feb 2011 8:09am

Put me down as 'general dogsbody' Spelling???
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Feb 2011 8:12am

Maybe Brady will be able to shoot some vermin?
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Feb 2011 8:12am

Please include me as General Superintendent / Adviser / Beer drinker & assistant to Bezzymate !!!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Feb 2011 8:17am

Great Tatey! Could stay on here all day,but work is a callin'.
Roll on retirement! Bye folks.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 4th Feb 2011 9:12am

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Thanks for all your welcomes and good wishes. I was already thinking about getting in a barrel of beer with plenty of food and inviting anyone interested to see the house and bring their work clothes to help strip back all the multiple layers of wallpaper and lino. I will also need an electrician and a gas fitter quickly as the house was broken into while empty and a lot of copper pipe ripped out, including the gas supply, so any recommendations will be gratefully received.


I have sent you a PM. An envelope should be flashing up top next to "My Stuff"
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:13am

ok Just logged on havent been on for months! how do I upload pictures?

Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:29am

top floor

Attached picture 1.jpg
Attached picture 2.jpg
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:32am

top

Attached picture 4.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:34am

top

Attached picture 6.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:36am

top

Attached picture 9.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:38am

sorry about the bin bags etc...took the photos at same time as my great nan moving out.

Attached picture 12.jpg
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Attached picture 14.jpg
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:42am

1st picture here is my great nans brother's case that was returned from when he was in world war 2. Only found it after sorting out rooms. He was a prisoner of war.

Attached picture 15.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:44am

...

Attached picture 18.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:47am

downstairs

Last picture - (ignoring the table) shows the beams in the front room. This is where someone was meant to have hung themselves and blood stain on floor etc...

Attached picture 21.jpg
Attached picture 22.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:53am

last pic is the remains of a shop. Think it got bombed in war...will double check!

Attached picture 24.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:56am

outside

Attached picture 27.jpg
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Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 1:58am

This is my great nan leaving the house for the last time after living there for 91 years! Was a sad moment!

Attached picture 30.jpg
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 6:08am

There is so much history in that house. I hope your great Nan will be happy wherever she is going to live next. God bless her.
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 7:34am

Thanks for uploading the pics Mariejane.

I've been comparing them to the ones Marty posted on the first page of the thread. Lovely how some things (furnishings etc) were still the same as 60 odd years ago.

Wishing your Great Nan every happiness in her new home
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 7:59am

Thankyou mariejane.
Hope it wasn't too traumatic for your G.Grandmother and she has settled into her new home.
Posted By: Snodvan

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 8:47am

Originally Posted by mariejane2401
This is my great nan leaving the house for the last time after living there for 91 years! Was a sad moment!


Thank you for the pics Mariejane. Please give a big hug to great gran from me and I am sure form all of us

Snod
Posted By: rocketqueen

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 11:18am

this thread is so emotive...on one hand its great the house is going to be restored but at the same time sad at you great nan leaving the house after 91 years....i hope ur nan is happy in her new home xxx
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 11:47am

Yes rocketqueen. Well said. Ditto comments from me also.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 7th Feb 2011 11:48am

I can only re-iterate all of the above sentiments.

Thank you mariejane for sharing such personal photographs and giving us all an insight into your great nan's life in that house.

The building itself will inevitably get altered and never be quite the same again, but your great nan will forever remain as part of its wonderful history.

Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Feb 2011 1:21pm

Thankyou everyone! She has moved into like a residential place so that she can get better care. She was understandably upset at first but she has settled in now. We told her about this forum when she first moved and she was made up that people were thinking about the house.
She was relieved that someone is buying and restoring the house too smile.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Feb 2011 6:32pm

Thank you so much mariejane for sharing all those photographs and memories. I can't imagine what it must be like moving out of a house you have lived in for 90 years, but I really hope your great grandmother won't miss it too much. I hope too we can find some way of honouring her in the restored house as such an important part of its history. Please give her my very best wishes.
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Feb 2011 7:56pm

When is tha auction?
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Feb 2011 7:41pm

Hi Two Wheels

I currently work with your son in Bromborough for a Property / Energy consultancy .

He has mentioned you have recently purchased the old house in Lime Kiln Lane. Congratulations on your purchase and i'm glad an experienced Architect has purchased the property rather than Wirral council we can rest assured the building is safe.

I'd like to welcome you to Wiki, and im sure TK has told you all about My interest in Urban Expolaration, Architecture and Wirral's history in general. The same goes for our other work colleague TD.

If you need a hand with anything at the property, let us know and we'd be more than happy to lend a hand.

Good Luck
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Feb 2011 8:15pm

Has the sale gone through?
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Feb 2011 9:37pm

No sorry Bezzy mate, it's still only in the process, his son was telling me the other day that his dad was in the process of acquiring the property and i was under the asumption it had gone through, on reading back through the thread i realised the sale hadn't completed, but given twowheels is an experienced architect and is restoring the house back to its former glory i don't see any reason why the sale shouldnt go through lol
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Feb 2011 10:35pm

Daft question mariejane, but one of the photos you put up shows a stuffed animal in a glass case. By any chance is this an otter?

I only ask because I recently came across a story saying that the last otter ever seen at Bidston Moss was captured by someone from Bird House. I wonder if this is the same one??



Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Feb 2011 8:14am

Thankyou,can't help but worry until it is all signed and sealed!
Originally Posted by Nelzy84
No sorry Bezzy mate, it's still only in the process, his son was telling me the other day that his dad was in the process of acquiring the property and i was under the asumption it had gone through, on reading back through the thread i realised the sale hadn't completed, but given twowheels is an experienced architect and is restoring the house back to its former glory i don't see any reason why the sale shouldnt go through lol
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Feb 2011 11:03am

I just hope that it is sooner rather than later!
Posted By: pete360

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th Feb 2011 4:50pm

Has anybody thought about forming a group 'Friends of Birds House'?? I would defo join it!
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th Feb 2011 4:54pm

Originally Posted by pete360
Has anybody thought about forming a group 'Friends of Birds House'?? I would defo join it!


Good Idea Pete, likewise should get the ball rolling
Posted By: pete360

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th Feb 2011 5:14pm

I live in Durham now... i was home this weekend to see the family. I was shocked when i drove past the house yesterday. Cant understand the council.. They demolish the Hotel Vic, Liscard Hall and the Pool Inn!! What next?? Birds House? St Lukes?????
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th Feb 2011 5:49pm

I know Pete your right, I think the Pool Inn was the last to come down after a suspicious fire think

Luckily the person purchasing the Birds House is an experienced Architect. who will give the building the respect it deserves
the sale is hopefully due to complete Feb.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Feb 2011 4:06pm

Yes, it's all taking much longer than expected to-ing and fro-ing between solicitors. Reckon it will probably be the end of March now before completion, so hopefully a big flurry of activity before Easter. Friends of Birds House sounds like a great idea!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Feb 2011 10:09pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Yes, it's all taking much longer than expected to-ing and fro-ing between solicitors. Reckon it will probably be the end of March now before completion, so hopefully a big flurry of activity before Easter. Friends of Birds House sounds like a great idea!
yipee
Posted By: kenja

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Mar 2011 8:09pm

I remember being at St. Lukes Church with the Boys Brigade & the Life Boys in the mid 60's. The church caretaker & bell ringer at the time was a small man with a stooped walk called Billy Woosnam. He lived in The Old House.
Posted By: camtrix321

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Mar 2011 10:56am

Hi all dont no if any ones got a contact number for the new owners
but if someone could let them no thats one of the boarding panels has been smashed in on the house front
Ta
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Mar 2011 10:59am

My Uncle was a member of the BB for years, I think that they used to go camping over to Ireland.
Originally Posted by kenja
I remember being at St. Lukes Church with the Boys Brigade & the Life Boys in the mid 60's. The church caretaker & bell ringer at the time was a small man with a stooped walk called Billy Woosnam. He lived in The Old House.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Apr 2011 9:49am

Thanks for letting me know - just hope there's no damage behind the boarding. Latest is that we complete the purchase on the 15th April, so I will be there on the day to get the boarding removed, emergency plumbing & electrical work etc done.If anyone's around then, or the following morning, I'll be in the house and glad to show the state it's in before we start work.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Apr 2011 3:26pm

Always willing to lend a hand, had the packs through myself from S&S at the time. Fair bit of work doing and will echo what has been said above, willing to lend a hand.
Posted By: Bezzymate

Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 9:42am

Any update here.
I can't find the link to it, so I have had to post as 'NEW'!
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 9:56am

Bezzy, sale has gone through, yaaaayyyy

smile
Posted By: Nelzy84

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 9:57am

Here you go Bezz

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/475589/Re_BIRDS_HOUSE.html#Post475589
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th Apr 2011 10:26am

Did anyone pop along to see 'twowheelkelly'?
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 10:27am

Thankyou Nelly
Posted By: Tatey

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 2:49pm

I certainly did. Amazing place, but what a lot of work to do!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 3:08pm

Awww wish I had of known, I'm jelous Tatey!
Posted By: Tatey

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 3:14pm

We are welcome probably anytime when 2wheel kelly is there. He said!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: Birds House - 20th Apr 2011 3:20pm

Will you let us know please,when he is next about.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: Birds House - 21st Apr 2011 5:35am

Originally Posted by Bezzymate
Will you let us know please,when he is next about.


PM sent.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: Birds House - 22nd Apr 2011 7:35pm

I'll be there from early afternoon on Thursday 28th and all day Friday 29th April.After that will be there Friday to Monday every week, so drop in and say hello!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: Birds House - 22nd Apr 2011 7:40pm

Ahh, will do Kelly.X
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Apr 2011 8:26pm

HI sorry for the late reply but yes that is the otter
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Apr 2011 8:27pm

Originally Posted by geekus
Daft question mariejane, but one of the photos you put up shows a stuffed animal in a glass case. By any chance is this an otter?

I only ask because I recently came across a story saying that the last otter ever seen at Bidston Moss was captured by someone from Bird House. I wonder if this is the same one??



Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Apr 2011 9:07pm

Cheers mariejane. I did wonder.

There seem to be quite a few intriguing tales about the old house, including one or two ghost stories.

It would make quite an interesting book if anyone ever fully researched the house and its history.
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Apr 2011 3:52pm

If it's not to nosy to ask mariejane, how is your Nan doing?
Posted By: mariejane2401

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th May 2011 1:37pm

My nan is doing good smile She hasn't really settled in very well into the new place but she is getting there smile

And yer people used to knock on the door to say they could see ghosts on the top floor of the house!! Me and my brother used to think it was funny so used to go up to the top with torches and stand in the window making people run banging on the door!!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th May 2011 3:21pm

ghost ghost raftl
Posted By: cooldarls

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th May 2011 2:44pm

Amazing place and amazing stories. I hope everything goes well in restoring it and if you ever need help im pretty good at most things.

good luck
Posted By: HistoricalTony

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 12:27pm

Originally Posted by _Ste_
Grrr dispicale!
Went past this on way home from work this evening, all boarded up and waiting for the local vandals to strike.
I can see the headlines now....

"oldest house in Wirral in arson probe"

frown


That is the councils answer to everything if they want to bend the rules they pay kids to set places on fire etc, but of course this does not happen its only a conspiracy theory towards wbc
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 12:51pm

Signs of life there now; boards off windows. It seems to be occupied, or at least being looked after. Good to see. I was worrying about it.
Posted By: HistoricalTony

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 1:33pm

yes that is great news, we seem to be losing too much of of our heritage and roots. That building in its own rights has more history attached to it which would be well worth researching and as somebody has previously said, it has stayed standing throughout many changes.
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 8:06pm

Yes I have moved in, though it's more like camping at the moment while I work my way through the house cleaning and sorting out what needs to be done. Insulating the roof is top of the list and it's a pretty dirty job! Am thinking of having a wallpaper/paint-stripping party one Saturday in the next couple of weeks with plenty to eat and drink - anyone fancy coming along? If so send me a message and I'll let you know when... smile
Posted By: TRANCENTRAL

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 9:11pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Yes I have moved in, though it's more like camping at the moment while I work my way through the house cleaning and sorting out what needs to be done. Insulating the roof is top of the list and it's a pretty dirty job! Am thinking of having a wallpaper/paint-stripping party one Saturday in the next couple of weeks with plenty to eat and drink - anyone fancy coming along? If so send me a message and I'll let you know when... smile


over your pm mate so put me down please!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 9:14pm

Me too!
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 20th May 2011 9:46pm

Not as young as I used to be (well, obviously, as I don't have a Tardis!) but am keen on gardening, and have often passed the place and wished I could give the garden some TLC. Happy to lend a hand when that stage is reached, and suggest plants that might suit the character of the building.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 31st May 2011 9:38pm

As expressed in Chat, i'll be there with Scraper, in hand laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 31st May 2011 10:09pm

Yeah, always happy to help out!
Posted By: gypsyjune

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 31st May 2011 10:46pm

Hello Greenwood if you are a keen gardener i would be happy for you to put a few hours in my garden i am desperate to find a good gardener i will pay the going rate if you are interested please pm me thanks june
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Jun 2011 5:56am

scrapper and dusty at the ready!! smile
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 3rd Jun 2011 11:59am

Hmm - tried to PM you but got a message about having reached my limits of message participants. Darned if I know what that means! Anyway...
I don't think I have the stamina to take on gardening work as a general thing, to be honest. Birds House is a bit of a special case to me, as I've passed it so often and thought how lovely it would be to have the garden in keeping with the old building.

However, if you want someone to come in and give your place a 'one-off' going-over to make it more manageable, I know someone reputable who might do that. She and her friend run a small gardening business. I don't think they have any regular maintenance slots available, but they could maybe do a 'spring clean' or similar. They topped a large garden hedge for my daughter when she moved house. Let me know if you'd like more info on that.
Posted By: gypsyjune

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 3rd Jun 2011 12:43pm

Hello greenwood if you know some one that will do my garden pass them this number and get them to ring me if i am out they might like to leave a message 0151 630 6433 many thanks june
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 3rd Jun 2011 9:42pm

Okay - will do. Here endeth the threadnapping! Back to Birds House...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 15th Jun 2011 10:17am

see all the wood is off the windows now and the gas person (see being pc raftl ) where there the other day, has someone bought this? the chimney place from outside looks in bad shape.
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 15th Jun 2011 2:25pm

Yes it has been bought and lived in as we speak!
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Jun 2011 7:33pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Yes I have moved in, though it's more like camping at the moment while I work my way through the house cleaning and sorting out what needs to be done. Insulating the roof is top of the list and it's a pretty dirty job! Am thinking of having a wallpaper/paint-stripping party one Saturday in the next couple of weeks with plenty to eat and drink - anyone fancy coming along? If so send me a message and I'll let you know when... smile

had a great day today, an amazing house and it now has a fantastic owner!!! thank you for allowing us to help, also take lots of pics and lovely to meet you wink
Posted By: TRANCENTRAL

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Jun 2011 8:13pm

Big thankyou to Roger for the warm welcome today and the food thumbsup what a fantastic house mate and so much history smile sorting my pics out smile
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Jun 2011 8:56pm

Roger- what a lovely lovely person.
Thankyou for allowing us into your home, to explore and enjoy.
The food was delicious.
we`ve had a fantastic day, tiring but thoroughably enjoyable!
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Jun 2011 9:06pm

Yes couldn't agree more.Roger is a lovely man and so friendly.
Thankyou for the lovely lunch that you had prepared for us.
Can't wait for the next visit,thankyou.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Jun 2011 9:37pm

i`m so chuffed of us all, when i think of that first room, `before` and `after`! grin
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:19pm

A big thank you to all the gang who did such a great job yesterday - it would have taken me weeks to do as much work on my own! One of our amazing finds yesterday was this piece of a map of Jerusalem, under 4 coats of limewash and one of wallpaper. Can anyone date it or identify where it might have come from? It measures about 2ft x 1ft.

Attached picture jerusalem map 2.JPG
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:30pm

You can see that the letter 'J'(as in Jesus) appears in several parts of the map. I could be wrong, but think if this map was any earlier than Victorian the J would have been written more like an 'I'.

Posted By: poodlepup

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:34pm

Wow nice find,hopefully someone will be able to date it for you.
Posted By: poodlepup

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:39pm

Could be WW1 era,seen similar maps about "The fall of jerusalem" 1917.
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:41pm

oh gosh roger you've done a good job with that it must have taken you ages! thanx for posting it up for us!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 19th Jun 2011 8:49pm

Most of the info on the map seems to relate to the trial of Jesus. I'd guess (depending on size) that it was probably a supplement from a newspaper or magazine. Probably no more than 100 years old.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 21st Jun 2011 10:18am

I answered a post on Rocks thread before but thought I may as well duplicate here unless anyone sees it.

It may already have been posted or mentioned elsewhere on the thread, so sorry if so...

[Linked Image]

It was actually sold after the auction in November 2010, rather than at the drop of the hammer for around Ł40,000. It's an interesting place, just in the wrong area I feel.

Interestingly, see the below links;

Conveyance Dated 1929
Vesting Deed Dated 1929
Conveyance Dated 1958
Conveyance Dated 1996
Death Certificate
Epitome of Title
Deed of Appointment

Probably best right click and save as. Some of them are quite large files.
Posted By: Bezzymate

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Jul 2011 9:06am

Forgive me if this picture has already been added.

Attached picture 45226_1256264307005_1841524953_509227_2058275_n.jpg
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Jul 2011 10:24pm

That's an interesting picture - looks like it might show (on the left) the barn (dated 1704 I think someone said?) that was demolished. Could the picture be post-war? The steeple on St. Luke's looks like the one that was put up after war damage, but the rest of the buildings look older somehow.
Posted By: nightwalker

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Aug 2011 3:05pm

While looking for something completely different I came across this article written by David Hoey for the HSLC in 1967. Mainly about the barn and bit technical but interesting...

"The Old House in Poulton, Wallasey, is an interesting example of the type built by the more comfortable, if smaller, yeoman farmer of the late-seventeenth and early-eighteenth century in Wirral. The house bears the date 1697 and is attributed to William Bird.

Bird's barn, which was demolished early in 1965, was the one surviving out-building of The Old House. The barn was 52 feet long and 20 feet wide and the walls were built of local sandstone, with minor repairs in brick. Both the north and the east walls were completely re-constructed in 1704 and presented a regular appearance. The north wall had two doors—one, which had a massive plain stone lintel and was blocked up some time after the reconstruction, was at ground level and the other gave access to the loft. The stone lintel above the latter door carried a recessed shield which contained the letters
B.
W. M.
and the year of the reconstruction, 1704.

The north wall was 2 feet thick, while on average the remain¬ing walls of the barn were 18 inches thick. The east wall had a small window placed just over halfway along its length. The west wall of the building was of irregular construction and had two small doors with wooden lintels and stone door steps; two larger openings had been made in this wall prior to the date of demolition. The south wall of the barn was simply a pair of crucks with associated tie-beam, collar-beam, wall plates and further wooden bracing. The bracing below the tie-beam had been removed and replaced by stone infill. There were three surviving pairs of crucks, each 17 feet 6 inches apart supporting the main timbers of the roof. The crucks are lettered A-F on the ground plan. On the back of each cruck was placed a principal rafter these rafters had their lower ends sunk into the tie-beam and their upper ends tapered against the cruck. There were two wind-braces strengthening this arrangement at crucks A, B, E and F. The ends of each wind-brace were pegged together onto the principal rafter and the other ends were sunk into the purlin on either side of the cruck. (See detail of roof construction.)

One other pair of crucks had been replaced at the north end of the barn during the reconstruction of 1704 and the sockets to take the missing wind-braces were visible on the purlins adjacent to the north wall. It was noted that the collar-beams on crucks A, F and B, E were placed much higher than the collar-beam on the south end of the barn (crucks C, D). Crucks A. F and B, E were very much larger in cross-section than crucks C, D.

The loft extended from the north end of the barn to between crucks B, E and its height from ground level was 7 feet. The tie-beam between crucks A, F had been removed to give room for the loft. Access to the loft was by hatch and ladder. There were two dividing walls within the building—one between crucks B, E, 6 feet high supporting the tie-beams and having a small door set halfway along its length. The other wall was immediately to the right of crucks A, F. It was 4 feet 3 inches high surmounted by wooden shuttering, and provided further support for the loft floor. The barn, prior to the date of demolition, had been roofed with slate."


I assume the photos were taken shortly before demolition.

Attached picture Picture.jpg
Attached picture Picture2.jpg
Attached picture Picture3.jpg
Posted By: nightwalker

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Aug 2011 10:11am

I think there's a thread trying to identify whether the date the house was built was 1697 or 1627 but I can't find it so I'll add my two pennorth here!!

If Hoey is right about the work on the barn taking place in 1704 and William Bird(presumably)putting that date on the door lintel, perhaps the 1697 date on the house is also the date of when he carried out reconstruction work on the house and not the date it was built.
Posted By: bert1

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Aug 2011 10:56am

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...Re_INSIDE_THE_BIRD_HOUSE.html#Post538874
Posted By: nightwalker

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Aug 2011 1:43pm

Thanks, bert. That's the one I should have used.
Posted By: dingle

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 18th Aug 2011 9:24am

Ok I have just read all 94 posts and reckon this is fantastic. I will be coming home in October only for a holiday and would love to have a butchers at this amazing house. So what is the address please??
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Aug 2011 9:08pm

Wonderful info about that barn! Fascinating.
However... does anyone have a way of getting in touch with Roger?
His private message box is not accepting messages (or I'm not doing it right) so I thought someone who had been in the house work party might have a way of getting in touch with him. I passed the house today and there's a big road sign that has been pushed askew and is leaning against the outer wall by the roadside going up the hill from the roundabout - the bit that's near the kitchen extension, with an infilled window in, like it was an outhouse at some point. There's already a crack in that wall, and this isn't going to help at all. Thought he should know so he can chase the Highways dept to get it shifted.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Aug 2011 6:23am

Originally Posted by Greenwood
Wonderful info about that barn! Fascinating.
However... does anyone have a way of getting in touch with Roger?
His private message box is not accepting messages (or I'm not doing it right) so I thought someone who had been in the house work party might have a way of getting in touch with him. I passed the house today and there's a big road sign that has been pushed askew and is leaning against the outer wall by the roadside going up the hill from the roundabout - the bit that's near the kitchen extension, with an infilled window in, like it was an outhouse at some point. There's already a crack in that wall, and this isn't going to help at all. Thought he should know so he can chase the Highways dept to get it shifted.


PM sent to you.
Posted By: Tombraider

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Aug 2011 10:27am

Originally Posted by nightwalker
I think there's a thread trying to identify whether the date the house was built was 1697 or 1627 but I can't find it so I'll add my two pennorth here!!

If Hoey is right about the work on the barn taking place in 1704 and William Bird(presumably)putting that date on the door lintel, perhaps the 1697 date on the house is also the date of when he carried out reconstruction work on the house and not the date it was built.
Really intresting Nightwalker, thanks for posting this information!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Aug 2011 11:15am

I thought that the new owner of the house was an architect, if so can't he date the building himself from it's remaining architectural characteristics?

Perhaps it gets mentioned in Pevsner's guide to the buildings of Cheshire? think
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Sep 2011 3:27pm

Hi Folks.
Re: Date for Bird's House.
The following is English Heritage findings in 1952. I wonder why we have not come across it before, or maybe I have missed it.

British Listed BuildingsHistory in StructureHome


The Old House, Wallasey
Description: The Old House


Grade: II
Date Listed: 20 May 1952
English Heritage Building ID: 444453


OS Grid Reference: SJ3019091020
OS Grid Coordinates: 330190, 391020
Latitude/Longitude: 53.4114, -3.0517

Location: 15 Limekiln Lane, Wallasey, Wirral CH44 5SP


Locality: Wallasey
Local Authority: Wirral
County: Merseyside
Country: England
Postcode: CH44 5SP


Incorrect location/postcode? Submit a correction!


Listing Text Google Map/Street View OS Map Bing Map/Birds Eye View Comments Photos

Listing Text
SJ 39 SW WALLASEY LIMEKILN LANE
(west side)

3/48 The Old House
20.5.52
- II

B
House. Lintel inscribed: "W M/1627" (William and Mary
Bird). Stone with slate roof. 2 storeys with attic, 3
bays. Coped gables with kneelers. Single-chamfered-
mullioned windows of 3 and 5-lights with label moulds to
ground floor, 3:2 + 2:1-light windows to 1st floor. 2
gabled 2-light dormers. Entrance has large inscribed
lintel with label mould. Returns and rear similar. Rear
has brick, but that to right partly of stone. Interior not
inspected but described in E. Mercer, English Vernacular
Houses, pp 142.


Listing NGR: SJ3019091020



Source: English Heritage

Listed building text is © Crown Copyright. Reproduced under licence: PSI Click-use licence number C2008002006.




Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 7:30pm

As far as I know, apart from the datestone, the only evidence to directly connect William Bird with Bird’s House in the 17th century is the Vyner Estate Survey, which you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. The Survey was drawn up in 1665 by Thomas Taylor and details the Manor of Bidston and properties in other townships that belonged to the Manor, complete with details of field names and tenants. The three photos below show the relevant details.

The first photo shows an enlarged section of the main survey map which is actually dated 1656, but as all the other maps in the book are clearly dated 1665 it’s assumed that this was simply a mistake on the artist’s part. This shows Poulton-cum-Seacombe, with Bird’s House in the centre, next to what appears to be a small brook emanating from a spring and running downhill into Wallasey Pool.

The second photo is from the larger scale map of Poulton later in the book, which is orientated with east roughly at the top and shows Bird’s House top centre in a parcel of land clearly marked ‘Williamson’s Croft’. (Apologies for the quality of this image, but the colour photocopy of the Survey I had access to is so blurred at this point as to be totally useless; I had to resort to a copy from an old black-and-white slide.)

The third photo shows the accompanying ‘table of reference’ which clearly records that Bird’s House and the nine parcels of land in Poulton that belonged to Bidston Manor were all in the tenancy of Robert Williamso[n] in 1665. At some later date, the name of William Bird has been added below that of Robert Williamson in a different hand, whilst the last three parcels of land have been separated off by a dividing line and the name of Ja[me]s Gordon written alongside them in yet another hand. The exact significance of all this is not 100% clear, but it suggests that the original nine parcels were, at some point after 1665, divided into two holdings, one consisting of the house and four fields held by William Bird, the other consisting of three fields held by James Gordon. Whilst this doesn’t preclude the possibility of a William Bird being associated with Bird’s House in the 1620s – there appears to be no surviving evidence from that period – it seems to suggest that the association of the Bird family with the property postdates 1665.

The fourth picture shows the drawings of the two datestones from the house and barn as they appear in Woods & Brown’s The Rise and Progress of Wallasey. The sketches were done by the artist Harold Hopps (see the recently-published book Hopps around Wallasey) and are pretty rudimentary, but they do suggest that the carvings were essentially in the same style, and were probably therefore done not too many years apart. My money’s still on 1691 and 1704; certainly 1627 is, I think, out of the question for the first one, whatever English Heritage might think.

Attached picture Vyner Survey 1.JPG
Attached picture Vyner Survey 2.jpg
Attached picture Vyner Survey 3.jpg
Attached picture House Plates.jpg
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 7:52pm

I think that your assessment is spot on. The Bird family may well have had a long association with the history of Poulton but that does not necessarily mean that they were only ever living at this particular house. Put within the context of how turbulent a period of history we are dealing with (the English Civil War, etc) and that many changes in property ownership occurred at this time, it is very likely that the Bird family's tenancy of this property does postdate 1665.

Perhaps some other clues could be gleaned from the names appearing on records for local taxes?
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 8:14pm

Just an after-thought, but the chances are that most pre-1665 properties in Wallasey would have been timber framed & thatched. The house featured on the 1665 survey may well have been completely replaced. How many tenant farmers in a relatively poor settlement like Poulton would have lived in a high status stone-built property prior to 1650?
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 8:27pm

Originally Posted by geekus
The Bird family may well have had a long association with the history of Poulton but that does not necessarily mean that they were only ever living at this particular house.


Quite true. I've certainly seen evidence in map form from the early to mid-1800s showing a 'William Bird' living at at least two other properties in Poulton

As far as tax records are concerned, in my experience documents such as Hearth Tax Returns consist of little more than lists of tenants names, and unless there are a few distinctively large houses in the area assessed it's very difficult to associate individual names with specific properties.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 8:39pm

If Bird's House stood as a stone-built property prior to 1665 it must have been quite prestigious, don't you think?

The thing that puzzles me is that if the Bird family were only tenants (as the Vyner survey seems to suggest) why would they put their names on datestones for rebuilding a property which they did not actually own?
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 9:14pm

Having had plenty of time to examine the date stone in detail, as you can imagine, my conclusion is that the first and last numerals are identical, and as the first must be a one, so is the last, and the third is quite definitely a 2 not a 9, so there's no doubt in my mind that it reads 1621. The book 'English Vernacular Houses' published by the Royal Commission on Historical Monuments in 1975 also describes it as follows: "House built of coursed rubble and dated 1621 over the door. It has two storeys and an attic and is of two cells. The door is at one end of the S. front against the side of the large gable stack heating the hall.There is a winder stair on the N. side of the hall, remodelled on the ground floor. To the W. are two small unheated rooms. Two roof trusses in the attic have collars and curved principals. The windows have chamfered stone mullions and the attic windows are in small gables".

My understanding was that the house was built by William Bird and later passed into the hands of the Vyner Estate, but I haven't seen any evidence for this....
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 9:24pm

That would certainly help explain part of the mystery. It's a fascinating building whatever the case!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 10:17pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
My understanding was that the house was built by William Bird and later passed into the hands of the Vyner Estate, but I haven't seen any evidence for this....


If you are right about the date-stone there are still one or two points which are difficult to reconcile. If the Bird family originally built the property in, for argument's sake, 1621 why was the parcel of land the house stands on known as Williamson's Croft and not Bird's Croft, and why would the Bird family have built a later barn in 1704 and put their names on that if again they were not owners of the property?

As Marty points out the Bird family appear to have become tenants of the property after the Williamsons (according to the amendments made to the survey schedule). There is still, therefore, the possibility that the Williamson's originally owned the piece of land and built the original house, and that this property was later rebuilt or renovated by the Bird family when they became the new tenants after 1665.
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 11:14pm

Originally Posted by geekus
If Bird's House stood as a stone-built property prior to 1665 it must have been quite prestigious, don't you think?

The thing that puzzles me is that if the Bird family were only tenants (as the Vyner survey seems to suggest) why would they put their names on datestones for rebuilding a property which they did not actually own?


Tenancies in those days were not quite the same as what we understand by the term. William Bird would probably have held the land from the Lords of the Manor, the Vyner Family, by a 'lease for lives'. Basically the lease had no set length; it remained valid for as long as a number of persons (usually three) named in the lease were still alive. It was usual to choose members of one's family or close friends as the named 'lives', and if one of the named individuals died you could add a new 'life' to replace him or her upon payment of a fee or 'fine' to the Lord of the Manor. In this way the lease could effectively be extended for years, and when the tenant himself died the lease could be transferred to his son, again on payment of a 'fine' to the Lord of the Manor. In this way families could hold the same land for generations, and as there were no Planning Laws in those days you were entitled to build whatever you wanted on the land you held, within reason!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 25th Sep 2011 11:42pm

That's very interesting and very well explained Marty. I still think it's a bit strange though that the land was named after the Williamson family and it is they who are named as tenants on the original survey of 1665. Either they had been tenants there for many years previously or, you would be inclined to think that they were the original owners of the land at some point prior to 1665.

And I can't figure out why, if the Bird family built the property in 1621, the land was called Williamson's Croft (not Bird's Croft) and the Williamsons were named as tenants in 1665. Were the Bird family replaced as owners or tenants at some point after the house was built in 1621, only to be re-instated again as tenants after the Williamson's?

Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 2:02am

I've not found any evidence at all to link the Bird family with the property in the 1620s; as I said in my post, I think their involvement began some time after 1665 and that the date on the lintel is 1691 not 1621. The plot of land was called Williamson's Croft in 1665 simply because at that time it was leased by a member of the Williamson family. It was quite normal in those days for tenements to be named after the then current occupant, particularly if they or their ancestors had held the property for some time.

Similarly, the house eventually came to be known as Bird's House or Bird's Tenement presumably because the Bird family subsequently held it for such a long time that everyone came to know it by that name, and this time the name stuck. Many books also record that the house was also known as the Old House, simply because it was the oldest surviving property in the vicinity.
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 4:19am

Hetheman.

Good work.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 9:42am

Originally Posted by marty99fred
I've not found any evidence at all to link the Bird family with the property in the 1620s; as I said in my post, I think their involvement began some time after 1665 and that the date on the lintel is 1691 not 1621. The plot of land was called Williamson's Croft in 1665 simply because at that time it was leased by a member of the Williamson family. It was quite normal in those days for tenements to be named after the then current occupant, particularly if they or their ancestors had held the property for some time.

Similarly, the house eventually came to be known as Bird's House or Bird's Tenement presumably because the Bird family subsequently held it for such a long time that everyone came to know it by that name, and this time the name stuck. Many books also record that the house was also known as the Old House, simply because it was the oldest surviving property in the vicinity.


I agree Marty, and this is exactly what I've been trying to elucidate from this argument. Up until now people have really only been speculating as to the correct date on the date-stone, and opinions have batted back and forth based largely on stylisation of the numbers & lettering. By asking other questions and looking at the documentary evidence we are now being to see that a date of 1691 is far more likely.

I, personally, don't believe that the stone should be read as 1621, I was merely making the point that if that is what people want to accept it doesn't really fit in with the evidence on the estate map.

By the way, at the time that the survey was originally produced the land belonged to Lord Kingston. It wasn't until after 1680 that the Vyner family took possession of it. I wonder if the change of ownership had anything to do with the former tenants of Bird's House being ousted?
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 12:28pm

You're quite right that Sir Robert Vyner purchased the Manor of Bidston from Lord Kingston in 1680, and it's possible that the change of tenancy was a direct result of this. It's perhaps more likely, however, that Robert Williamson simply died; it would be interesting to find out if there's any record of his burial in the Parish Registers, as it might give us an idea of when William Bird took over as tenant.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 12:42pm

Someone was up late!
Your info is really very interesting, partiularly the maps and I do understand where you are coming from. Is it not possible that the date stone could have been possibly a commerative stone rather than building date? I don't know about those things.So far as the barn in concerned maybe they just took their time as St. Hilary's rectory commenced in 1632 and completed in 1695. The Bird family in that area were pretty numerous as you will see from the list below. Also I wonder if William Bird the Mayor of Chester 1580/81 could be of the same family. He was alloted lands in the time of King James for 64yrs.(Taken from Archives)Richard Bird was the Sheriff of Chester at the same date. Anyway, we don't want an arguement but please have a look at at the list below. If these aren't enough, there are plenty more!! I am sorry,but I don't think they will come through in the correct format.Hope you can understand it.

Bird's of Poulton cum Seacum/ Wallasey

Subsidy Roll 1545
Henrico Bryd
Rico Bryd

Possession of Arms 1582, 1588, 1590
William Bird

Subsidy Roll 1625
Henricus Bird

All but 2 of The following list of births deaths and marriages are all listed in St. Hilary's Parish Register.
William Bird Christened 1577 son to Rico
William Bird " 1579 son to William
William Bird " 1599
Ellen Bird " 1604
Margarete Bird " 1606
William Bird " 1610
William Bird " 1612
John Bird " 1615
Elizabeth Bird " 1617
Thomas Bird " 1618
James Bird " 1622


Rico Byrd Buried 1582
William Byrd " 1585
Thomas Byrd " 1586
John Byrd " 1587
John Bird " 1604
William P.c.S Bird " 1606 Will 1606
Richard Bird " 1608
John Bird " 1614
James P.c.S Bird " 1617 Will 1617

James Bird Married Ales Henson 1602
Henry P.c.S Bird " Elizabeth Billingham 1605 Bidston
William P.c.S Bird " Alice Shurlock 30/6/1628 I Believe this William to be
Church Warden. Died 1663 Alice Died 1655
Margaret Bird " Thomas Shurlock 30/6/1628 Margaret and Thomas died
same day of plague 6/12/1651.
9 members of the same family within 10
days Entry made by William Bird.
Elizabeth Bird " Thomas Strong 1634
Henry P.c.S Bird " Margaret Thomasin 1635
William Jnr Bird " Margery Gill 1661 Widow of Liscard.Chester
.Wm Died 1711
.Margery Died 1706
Henry P.c.S Bird " Mary Dunne age 22 1661













Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 1:38pm

Update!
Having just spoken to the Archives Dept at Wirral. No problems in finding out that Bird's House passed to the Vyner's in 1680.
So a bit more of the riddle solved.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 2:17pm

Definition of Yeoman in 17th Century

Yeoman land farmers (a class of wealthy English freeholders, below that of gentry who cultivate their own land)
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 2:42pm

That's certainly an impressive list, but sadly none of it proves that any of them lived in this particular house in Poulton!

As far as the date on the lintel is concerned I think I've made the point before in one of my posts that it may have nothing at all to do with the building of the house; it may be the date of a major rebuild of an earlier property, or it may possibly commemorate some family event such as a marriage or birth.

The main problem is that stone-built farmhouses such as Bird's House were built all over the country during the period W G Hoskins dubbed the 'Great Rebuilding' (which he defined as c1570-1640), when improved economic conditions in England led to the rebuilding or architectural improvement of large numbers of rural buildings. Others, have pointed out that this occurred much later in some parts of the country, so that in the North of England such houses commonly date to between 1670-1720. As a result it's virtually impossible to date this kind of property accurately on architectural grounds alone, as the style was in use for something like 150 years.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 3:47pm

Didn't know about the 'Great Rebuilding'. I don't suppose anyone will ever get to the bottom of this. You obviously have a huge amount of knowledge and research at your finger tips, which is most welcome.
Just one more question. If the Rectory at St. Hilary's rebuild commenced in 1632, could Bird's House have been a somewhat temporary Rectory in the interim?
You know I can come up with all sorts of ideas, probably none of which are even worth considering.
Hope you are not getting fed up!
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 4:28pm

Originally Posted by granny
You know I can come up with all sorts of ideas, probably none of which are even worth considering.
Hope you are not getting fed up!


No Granny, never! raftl

Thanks for your input on the Bird list. Not so much just one family more of a flock I'd say!

There is indeed some evidence of "the Great Rebuilding" in Wirral but it's difficult to prove for Wallasey.
When the Vyner family took over the estate (after 1680) their rentals were comparatively low. It was, however, a condition of their tenancy agreements that the tenants were responsible for repairs to their individual properties, as well as boundaries, and roads.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 26th Sep 2011 5:16pm

Thoughtful words Smartchild. Bless!

So have we got any further? Well, for myself yes, you have all been really informative.Lots of interesting stuff. At least I know who to get in touch with if I have anymore queeries. The thing is,this topic will no doubt continue for a long time. It's a bit like smoking..can't give it up.(well actually I have)
Thank you all.


Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 10:24am

Following on: Would this indicate that Williamson's Croft had passed to Bird's prior to 1660?

Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire for the year .. (Volume 43-44). (page 5 of 29)

The Rogation Procession. 45

dropped before the Restoration, when a Puritan
minister would have viewed with horror the
"superstitious gadding" and praying at crosses.


The Rogation Procession. 47

" they met there and proceeded thro' the fields
" towards Pooltown, and about the middle of " Williamson now T. Bird's Platkin Hey read
" Epistle and Gospel." The route followed in this
section of the procession still exists — alas ! how
changed — in a path running from near Seacombe
Church to Poolton, and lying between the Poolton
road and the Pool.

The Restoration of the English monarchy began in 1660

Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 11:27am

Difficult to say Gran. If you've got a copy of 'The Rise & Progress of Wallasey' have a look in Appendix III. There's quite a bit of info on the Rogation Procession in there, and it suggests that this custom may have continued (albeit in a diluted form) into the 1670's.

Is there any evidence that the Platkin Hey, was the same field as Williamson's Croft? Maybe have a look in the Wirral edition of Place-names of Cheshire by J. McNeal Dodgson for old field-names and see if you can find further clues there.

It wouldn't surprise me though if the political and religious upheavals of the period in question didn't have some bearing on the situation.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 11:53am

...looking back on this thread at the 1665 survey put up by Marty, the schedule lists half a dozen field names tenanted by the Williamsons. One of these fields is given as Platkin Hey but, interestingly, it does not mention the piece of land called Williamson's Croft even though it features on the map.

Perhaps if the original survey does date back to 1656 rather than 1665, something may have happened which saw the Williamson's ousted as tenants and replaced by the Birds. We know, for example, that William Bird became churchwarden in 1658, but that could be just a coincidence.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 12:54pm

There was William Bird Church warden in 1651,so maybe his son William continued after him as Church warden.

I didn't know whether the paragraph above was related to the time of happening or if it was taken from Robinson's account of which, at the moment, I am not sure when he wrote his accounts of the area.

Looking at the emapping for Victorian Cheshire, the Bird's owned a whole heap of land and property. One would wonder where it all transpired from. Bird's of a feather....!

I will try to have a look at 'Place names of Cheshire'.
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 12:55pm

Originally Posted by geekus
...looking back on this thread at the 1665 survey put up by Marty, the schedule lists half a dozen field names tenanted by the Williamsons. One of these fields is given as Platkin Hey but, interestingly, it does not mention the piece of land called Williamson's Croft even though it features on the map.

Perhaps if the original survey does date back to 1656 rather than 1665, something may have happened which saw the Williamson's ousted as tenants and replaced by the Birds. We know, for example, that William Bird became churchwarden in 1658, but that could be just a coincidence.


Sorry, the second maps's not very clear, but Williamson's Croft is marked with a small number (1) - it's listed as the 'house Stead, and Garden' in the accompanying schedule. It would have been called Williamson's Croft simply because the house on it would have been referred to as Williamson's.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 1:34pm

Thanks for that Marty! Can't you just write a book for us and put us out of our misery? raftl
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 1:43pm

I do have some more info from the Kingston/Vyner Survey, but I'll have to post it later.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 1:47pm

Originally Posted by granny
There was William Bird Church warden in 1651,so maybe his son William continued after him as Church warden.


You probably know more than I do Gran, I only got my info from 'The Rise & Progress', and it's a long time since I last read it properly. I hope Marty posts his info soon, as I worry your heart can't take much more of this. raftl
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 5:45pm

I’ve had another look at Thomas Taylor’s Survey of Bidston Manor with regard to the date, and the main map showing all the manorial lands is clearly dated 1656. Several of the larger scale maps are dated 1665, whilst others, including the one of Poulton, are undated. I think the correct date is generally assumed to be 1665 because Lord Kingston, for whom the survey was supposedly carried out, didn’t purchase the Manor until 1662.

The survey volume also contains several pages of valuations, together with various amendments and marginal notes, added at later dates. Most of these appear to have been written by Robert Vyner MP (one memorandum begins with the words ‘I Robert Vyner...’), to whom the Manor passed following the death of Sir Robert Vyner in September 1688.

One page is headed “My Computation of the Value of the Severall [ie separate] Tenements if out of Lease allowing for Taxes which the Tenant pays & all other deductions made in 1719” to which has been added “& reviewed in 1736” in a distinctive shaky handwriting. The only entry for Poulton-cum-Seacombe is the name ‘Joseph Bird’, which has been subsequently crossed out and had ‘Hester Moor’ written alongside it. The words ‘now Torbet Walter Kirkpatrick’ have then been added underneath by the person with the shaky hand, presumably in 1736. [The word Torbet is uncertain; as I say the handwriting is very shaky and difficult to read, but that’s what it looks like.].

A further section is headed “Old Rents chief rents & Cottages” with “Old Rents reformed in 1762” inserted below. Here under Poulton the name ‘Joseph Bird’ appears followed by ‘Walter Kirkpatrick’, written by old shaky hand, and ‘now Gordon’ written in yet another hand.

Three more pages follow containing a similar “Computation of the Value of the Several Tenements...” this time made in 1762. Here under Poulton the only name is that of ‘Walter Kirkpatrick’.

I’m not exactly sure how to interpret all of this, but I’ll have a go. It looks as if at some point tenancy of the Vyner lands in Poulton passed from William Bird to Joseph Bird (possibly with other Birds in between). Then in about 1719 or shortly thereafter the tenancy passed to Hester Moor, possibly only briefly, before ending up with Walter Kirkpatrick, who was the tenant in 1736, when the Valuation was reviewed, and still there in 1762, when the second Valuation Schedule was drawn up. William Kirkpatrick was then followed as tenant by ‘Gordon’, possibly the James Gordon who appears in the Table of Reference in my earlier post with the maps. All this is pure conjecture, of course, but at least we have some more possible names of tenants for the property!

One interesting point is that the Bird family’s tenancy seems not to have lasted much longer than a couple of generations; I envisaged something more akin to 150 years or so, given the property’s usual name. It is possible therefore that the name Bird’s House is of fairly recent origin, possibly originating with the realisation that the initials WB on the lintel stood for ‘William Bird’. As I’ve mentioned the property is also simply known as the Old House, so it would be interesting to find out when the name Bird’s House/Tenement first came into common usage.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 27th Sep 2011 9:58pm

Well it will take me a week to digest all that, but how interesting.

I believe the Joseph Bird you mention could be Yeoman of Poulton married to Ester. Son of William and Margaret Bird(nee Gill) of Poulton. He was christened in 1662 and death date 16/1/1728. So that could fit nicely.

That William is the son of this next William.

William Bird. Married Alice Shurlock. 30/6/1628 I Believe this William to be Church Warden. Died 1663 Alice Died 1655.

NOTE: WILLIAM BIRD AND ALICE WERE MARRIED ON THE SAME DAY AS MARGARET BIRD AND THOMAS SHULOCKE

Margaret Bird. Married Thomas Shurlock. 30/6/1628

Margaret and Thomas died same day of plague in 6/12/1651.
9 members of the same family within 10 days

It says Quote " These persons dyed in the years of our Lord God One Thousand Six Hundred ffitee and on. Bye mee William Bird"
How sad.All his sister's (I assume) family in 1651

So it must have been William of William and Alice.

This is what I posted the other day but have messed around with it a bit.

Marty, do have a library at the side of your armchair?
I think you are right about Bird's House being originally the Old House, but it probably didn't have a name at all when it was first built.
Got to go and digest now.
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 12:58pm

I was hoping that Joseph Bird would turn out to be the son of William and Margaret, because, of course, W & M B are the initials carved on the lintel of the house. This would fit in with the William Bird in the 1665 Vyner Survey who became the tenant of the property after Robert williamson.

One thing I did forget was to give the actual property valuations given by Robert Vyner in 1719. The main entry, where the name of Joseph Bird is crossed out, is valued at Ł16, and undoubtedly includes the house in parcel 1 of the Survey map. The second entry, under 'Old Rents chief rents & Cottages', that ends with 'now Gordon' is only valued at 16 shillings; I think this refers just to the last three fields in the Survey schedule, numbers 8,9 & 10, which appear to be assigned to James Gordon in the Table of Reference.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 1:22pm

It's very interesting stuff Marty. Well done to you and Granny for all your research. I'm sure you've given the owner plenty to think about, and I wasn't joking when I said you ought to do a book on all this!
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 4:09pm

Amazing what there is to find.

Esther Bird married William Moors in 1730.

Her dead husband Joseph was the cousin of that chap Nehemiah,Yeoman of Poulton..born 1685.

With Marty's unbelievable input everything has somehow got a result, or at least the best we can hope for.

My heart is doing fine thanks Geekus it's just my head that's messed up. For the record I'm not as old as I may sound!!

Does anyone know anything about the Mullineaux's!Only joking. My ancestors were Bird's ,Mullinueaux's and Walley's! I haven't even started on them and don't think I want to.
Thanks so much for all the invaluable info and help which in all honesty I would never have had the knowledge to track down.
You are an amazing pair and I've just unearthed my 'Rise and Progress' so watch this space!
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 8:57pm

That is interesting; it didn't occur to me that Hester/Esther Moor(s) might be Joseph Bird's remarried widow! That explains a lot. All we need to know now is whether Hester/Esther died some time between 1730 and 1736 to give us a possible date when Walter Kirkpatrick took over the tenancy...
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 9:23pm

Originally Posted by granny
Does anyone know anything about the Mullineaux's!Only joking. My ancestors were Bird's ,Mullinueaux's and Walley's! I haven't even started on them and don't think I want to.


That must make you Wallasey royalty Gran! I'm pretty sure that the Walley's go back to the 14th Century.

By the way, the archives have quite a few of the Wills and Probate Inventories left by various members of the Bird family.

http://archivedatabases.cheshire.go...nv=&cod=&sort=Surname&page=0
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 10:00pm

Originally Posted by geekus
By the way, the archives have quite a few of the Wills and Probate Inventories left by various members of the Bird family.

http://archivedatabases.cheshire.go...nv=&cod=&sort=Surname&page=0


Nothing on William Bird though. no
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 28th Sep 2011 11:35pm


Marty.

Esther (Bird) Moores then wife of William Moores (according to a look on familysearch, always a bit suspect)does state she died at Peover, Cheshire, in 1733. I do think this entry to be correct as she married William at St.Hilary's, and all dates seem to tally.

Geekus.

Have had a look at the Wills archives. I already have about 4 of them but pretty difficult to understand, what with Latin, sratchy writing, bad copies etc. Pretty basic from what I can understand. There is an early one in 1606 for a William Bird,Wallasey listed under Cheshire wills in one of the books I have, but is available from Lancashire. It's an Inventory but I haven't bothered as probably won't be able to translate that either. Maybe one day.
The de Waley's were in Wirral in 1170: See St. Hilary's Church and the font and Birkenhead Priory. Much as I would like to claim fame I don't think I dare. I am back to 1817 but not from this area. Although having researched the name in my own way, the first Waley's came from Wales. Philip was one of two who were said to be the illegitimate sons of King Henry first or second(can't remember) and Princess Nesta of Wales.Although the name is also said to be of Norman descent. The two Waleys' went to invade Ireland where the name changed to Walsh. Not long after I think the family were kicked out of Wales and Waley's appeared in Wirral, Lancashire(Walch Hall) Cumbria, Scotland (where the name changed to Wallace- yes the famous Wallace)and Yorkshire at Burgh Wallis. That is of interest as Eleanor sometimes seen as Alinora,ex wife of Robert the Bruce married one of the Waley's from Burgh Wallis. This could indicate connection between Wallace and Waley's. It is also believed by some, that one of the Waley's wrote the 'Guest of Robin Hood'. I think William Wallace WAS Robin Hood........but we shall leave that for another time.
Mullineaux's are definitely from this area. I could rattle on for hours, ever so sorry. Must go and get head rest.

Thanks again.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Sep 2011 1:27pm

Ha! Ha! But........( This is probably more for Marty.)

Katheren BIRD married Robert WILLIAMSON
St Hilary's
1580

Robert WILLIAMSON christened
St Hilary's
1593

Robtus WILLIAMSON buried
Little Peover, Cheshire
1598

Hence the transfer of land and probably for a couple of generations with relation to your research.

Strange that Esther Moors (nee Bird) was also buried in Peover, Cheshire.

Also a Katherine Williamson married John Scarisbrick
Bidston
1619.
Don't know where that might fit in yet.could be a re-marriage(although late) or daughter or neither.
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Sep 2011 9:46pm

I called in at Cheshire Record Office on Thursday to see if there are any surviving deeds for Bird’s House in the Vyner Estate Papers there. In the collection deposited by solicitors Birch, Cullimore & Co there are three surviving leases for the property from the early 18th century that make that period at least a little clearer (but not much).


The first is dated 25th November 1717 and is between Robert Vyner esq and Joseph Bird of Poolton-cum-Seacomb, yeoman. This was a lease for three lives to replace a surrendered lease where one of the ‘lives’ had presumably died. The property is described as:
“All that messuage [ie house] and tenement situate lying and being in Poolton-cum-Seacomb wherein he the said Joseph Bird doeth now Inhabit or dwell” together with a number of parcels of land whose boundaries are given in detail (I’ve missed out most of this, as it’s rather long-winded): (a) “The Housestead, Orchards, Gardens, Barne and Croft abutting north-east on the Town Lane, south-east on the yard lately belonging to Henry Bird deceased, south-west on the Poole, and north-west on the Breck”, (b) Breck Hay, (c) Samsons Butt, (d) Endless Hay, (e) Higher Hay alias Black Hay, (f) Middle Hay, (g) Three Butts, (h) Lower Hay, and (i) Platkin Hay.
Give or take the odd scribal error, these match the parcels listed in the 1665 Estate Survey. The properties were leased at a rent of 18 shillings per annum, and the ‘lives’ enumerated in the lease were Joseph Bird himself, Hesther “his now wife”, and William their son aged ca6 months.

The second lease, for exactly the same property, is dated 6th September 1736, and is between Robert Vyner and Esther Moores, widow, upon surrender of the above lease to Joseph Bird, ”former husband of the said Esther Moores”. The surrendered lease now only had “one life in being to witt the said Esther Moores”, indicating that both Joseph and their son William were now deceased. The lives in the new lease were Esther herself (aged 50), Mary Bird, her youngest daughter (aged 18) and Mary Heyes, daughter of Samuel Heyes of Liverpool, mariner (aged 9).

The third lease, dated 3rd June 1755, was between Robert Vyner and Alexander Talbott or Torbett of Liverpool, mariner, upon surrender of the above lease to Esther Moores, deceased, mother-in-law of the said Alexander Talbott/Torbett (Alexander’s signature indicates that his surname was Torbett, but the clerk who wrote out the lease got it wrong; Torbett has clearly been added to the lease as a correction later). The property appears to have been “assigned” to Alexander by Esther, presumably in her will. The lives listed were Mary Bird, now Mary Monford, youngest daughter of Widow Moores (aged 37), Mary Cheshire, formerly Mary Heys (aged 28), and Ann Talbott, daughter of Alexander Talbott (aged 20). The lease contains two notes certifying that “Mary Cheshyre, late Mary Hayes”, and Mary wife of Daniel Munfort of Backbarrow in the Parish of Coulston, formerly Mary Bird, were both alive and in good health.

Interpreting all of this is difficult as it was not necessary to renew a lease immediately upon the death of the leaseholder (it remained valid as long as at least one of the named ‘lives’ was still living), and the ages of individuals named are often only approximate, but I think that the tenancy of Bird’s House may have gone something like this: The property passed from Robert Williamson to William Bird and Margaret/Margery Bird (m 1661) some time after 1665 – It then passed to their son Joseph (b 1662) on William’s death in 1711 – Following Joseph’s death in 1728, it passed to his widow Esther/Hester (b ca1686), who married William Moores in 1730 – Following Esther’s death before 1755 (quite possibly as early as 1733) it passed to her son-in-law Alexander Torbett, who was married to Joseph and Esther’s elder daughter, name unknown (b ca1718) – Finally, at some point before 1862, it passed to Walter Kirkpatrick…

I think that all makes some sort of sense. Apologies for going on so long, but it's difficult to summarise this sort of stuff without leaving out something vital!
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Oct 2011 12:50pm

Just as an afterthought, it's most likely that the lease for the property was assigned by Esther Bird/Moores to her son-in-law in 1730 when she remarried; this would make sense if she was moving to Peover to live with her new husband.

The fact that it took Alexander Torbett 25 years to take out a new lease on the property in his name, even though Esther had died in 1733, is not unusual. The fee or 'fine' payable on renewing a lease was often a hefty sum of money, so it was something to be avoided for as long as possible. In Alexander's case the fine was Ł32; given that the annual rent for the property was only 18 shillings, you can see just what a financial outlay it was.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st Oct 2011 3:45pm

Marty, what a 'star' you are!

That is wonderful and no apologies needed for the length of content.

Esther and Joseph had only 3 surviving children that I know of. 1 daughter Mary christened 1719, and 2 sons. William (c) 1717 and Samuel (c) 1725.

Everything looks 'boxed off' now I should think, in relation to how the property was xferred etc.
It is surprising how things moved and one tiny bit of info e.g. Esther's re-marriage has brought all this to light.

You have really done well and I for one am very grateful to you. I am sure all the other 'Bird family' addicts are feeling much the same way.
I think that you have earned yourself a good rest after all of that.
but before you do........

Just one thing: If you look at my previous post about
Katheren Brydde (Bird) marrying Robert Williamson. Could it be that the lands etc. originally belonged the the Bird's and possibly had passed to her and thus to Robert Williamson(husband or son) if no other Bird benefactor was alive? I would think it could be that way,although assumptions are more likely to be wrong, which I have found out to my peril more often than not.

Brilliant stuff from start to finish. Geekus is right, you should write a book for the local history societies. They would love it.


Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 4:14pm

It's perfectly possible that Robert Williamson did acquire the tenancy by marriage to Katherine Bird/Brydde; it would simply mean that her parents had no surviving male child to inherit the property. The tenancy could then have passed to their son, also Robert, and if he then died leaving no children, it could have reverted back to the Bird family after 1665. The only problem is finding suitable evidence to prove it!

As for Joseph and Esther's children, there must be another daughter somewhere, as Mary is quite clearly described as their 'youngest daughter' and was not the one Alexander Torbett was married to...

STOP PRESS: I've just had a look on familysearch and there's a marriage dated 22/11/1739 at St Nicholas's Church, Liverpool, between an Alexander Torbot and Sophia Bird...but that wouldn't fit in with the Esther Bird who died in 1733 being the one who was Joseph's widow...
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 4:31pm

More STOP PRESS: Familysearch records a Sophia Bird being baptised in Wallasey on 21/11/1708, father Joseph Bird.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 4:37pm

Originally Posted by marty99fred
Interpreting all of this is difficult as it was not necessary to renew a lease immediately upon the death of the leaseholder (it remained valid as long as at least one of the named ‘lives’ was still living)...


I saw some of those tenancy leases (albeit a few years ago now) but I'm sure they related to the Bird family and I recall seeing a number of letters indicating that one of the 'Lives' in question (a mariner) had been reported missing, presummed drowned. Maybe there were delays in the transfer of tenancy whilst further investigations took place. If this was Talbott, perhaps he turned up again after being missing some years?
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 5:33pm

I'm not sure what you looked at, but the only Vyner papers relating to Poulton the staff could find for me were in a single bundle of six leases and counterpart leases, two of which turned out to relate to Poulton Lancelyn. There were no letters at all.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 5:59pm

Originally Posted by marty99fred
I'm not sure what you looked at, but the only Vyner papers relating to Poulton the staff could find for me were in a single bundle of six leases and counterpart leases, two of which turned out to relate to Poulton Lancelyn. There were no letters at all.


Not all of their papers are fully catalogued. There are numerous bundles of leases.
Posted By: marty99fred

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd Oct 2011 6:48pm

I know they're uncatalogued, but unfortunately I don't have the time these days to be wading through boxes of uncatalogued deeds, so I had to go for the only box that was listed as containing deeds relating to Poulton-cum-Seacombe. Someone else will have to dig out the rest.

Meanwhile, I've had another play with familysearch and come up with a couple of entries that perhaps make the descent of the Bird's House tenancy a little simpler to follow. Firstly, a Robert Williamson was buried at St Hilary's on 20/09/1669, four years after the 1665 Survey was drawn up. And, secondly, an Esther Mores was buried at St Hilary's on 16/04/1752, which makes the date of Alexander Torbett's lease easier to make sense of.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 3rd Oct 2011 5:34pm

Hi again,
This all makes loads of sense now and we could go on eternally. Probably best to call this angle of it to a close.
Thank you so much for your time and effort, it's all good fun and so interesting. I am pleased you got a date for Esther's death other than the one I put up.
I am sure many will be delighted to view all of your posts which have unravelled a lot of the mystery.
It was good of you to go to Chester.
Well done Marty.

Of course there's always more.................!





Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 29th Nov 2011 5:02pm

Don't know if you've already seen it, but there are references to Henry Bird living at a house in Poulton in 1650 mentioned in 'The Cheshire Sheaf' series of local history articles.

The article in question is an account of a local dispute concerning the Litherland Family and ownership of Poulton Hall, Wallasey, in 1650. It's in the Cheshire Sheaf for September, 1928 if you're interested [ref 5717]. It's quite a reliable source for dating evidence as the account is drawn from official records relating to the dispute.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Nov 2011 10:48pm

That is really interesting! I was not aware of that information but Henry Bird seemed to be a more prominent figure in Poulton around that time.
I am still searching and find little snippets which might or might not be relevant. Just hoping little by little the pieces can be linked eventually.
Great, thanks very much Geekus.
Posted By: Geekus

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Nov 2011 10:52pm

No worries, Granny. Keep up the good work! thumbsup
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Jul 2012 10:06pm

How's the work going on the house? Does anyone know?

Thanks smile
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2013 6:44am

Posting again to see if there's any update smile
Posted By: Dilly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2013 7:05am

Scaffolding is up, looks like they have rendered the stack so I would say yes work is now in progress. I live near by so will try to keep you updated. Dilly
Posted By: LisaW

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2013 5:05pm

Thanks Dilly smile
Posted By: Dilly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 22nd Sep 2013 8:26am

Scaffolding now gone, can't really see anything has changed.Maybe they were just assessing the condition of the building. I will keep an eye on it and keep you informed of any work in the future. Dilly.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 24th Sep 2013 6:01am

The current owner has now completed all the repointing & some window replacements. I spoke to him on 22nd.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 30th Apr 2014 11:28pm

Having seen this painting of Wallasey Hall 1604 by Harold Hopps, followed by a photograph of Bird's House or The Old House, they look very similar in all ways. I'm still not convinced it was an original build in 1697.
Also, does anyone know what the name Platkin might refer to as a field name Platkin Hey. I can't get a led on that at all, other than plankton. Which doesn't make much sense, does it?
Sure someone will get cross, because we thought we had put this to bed. laugh



Attached picture mer_wgm_w205_624x544.jpg
Attached picture 444453-50818-800 Birds House (old house) Wallasey.jpg
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st May 2014 11:01am

that painting is nice granny, where did you find it if you dont mind me asking?
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st May 2014 11:28am

It's on our doorstep at the Williamson Art Gallery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/wallasey-hall-built-1604-67490
Posted By: _Ste_

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st May 2014 11:35am

Originally Posted by granny


great, thankyou happy

Am i right in yhinking that the painting is of the house by the cheshire cheese with st hilarys church in the background?
Posted By: Santos

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st May 2014 1:21pm

Not with an large storage tank behind it. It is the one on the corner of Sherlock Lane surely.
Posted By: Santos

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 1st May 2014 1:21pm

Not with a large storage tank behind it. It is the one on the corner of Sherlock Lane surely.
Posted By: Tatey

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 2nd May 2014 5:55am

Santos, Ste did say "Painting" not photo!
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 31st May 2016 9:47pm

Apologies for the (very) long silence from me, I had every intention of posting regular updates on progress with the building work but somehow the work itself just took over. It’s all nearly finished and as was always going to be the case I now have to sell the house – I took it on because I wanted to rescue an amazing piece of architectural history and have loved living in it while doing the work but it was never intended as a long term home for me. It will be ready to put on the market sometime in July but I really want to find someone local who shares my passion for old buildings and can take on being its custodian for many years to come, so if there is anyone who is seriously interested or knows someone who might be I’m happy to show you around in its not yet finished state. I will also be having a couple of open days before it is advertised for anyone who wants to see the results of 5 years’ hard labour! A brief summary of what I have done:

Outside

All stonework repaired and repointed
All windows repaired, reconditioned or replaced; top floor and rear elevation fully double glazed
Pvc guttering and downpipes replaced with cast aluminium

Inside

Every room replastered, repainted, floors sanded and oiled, doors stripped and oiled
New winder stair (as it was originally) replacing bottom straight flight
New plumbing and wiring throughout
Kitchen and bathroom completely remodelled
New ‘A’ rated gas boiler heating whole house plus a big woodburning stove in main living room

I have some before and after photos on a separate website: https://sites.google.com/site/rogerkellyarchitect/the-old-house
...more to come


Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 16th Jun 2016 10:35am

Hello Roger, That is really nice of you to post this information. Many of the previous members who you remember don't seem to use Wiki very much now, so maybe they have not seen your post.

You may remember myself as I did visit on one occasion ?

From the images you are showing it is looking lovely now. Much hard work and dedication. Let's hope you find someone who will love it as much as it has been for the last 300/400 yrs . I am still not really convinced with the date stone as 1697, but that is something else. All the information etc. just doesn't convince me as to why the barn would be so much older than the house . Maybe I'm forgetting some finer detail.

Good luck with the sale and respect to you for protecting and keeping this lovely home for yet another generation.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 16th Jun 2016 10:52am

PM sent to you.
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 16th Jun 2016 3:28pm

Great pics Roger- thanks for Update and pictures.

The Wiki Working Party enjoyed assisting you, (during the early days of your Project).. Some fond memories were made- not so many fond memories about that green lime-wash stuff though!! shocked

The house looks fabulous. I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to explore the place so thanks again.
Posted By: TRANCENTRAL

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 16th Jun 2016 8:51pm

Looking great Roger smile
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Jun 2016 12:02pm

youve done a great job Roger thumbsup and yes Rude we have some fond memories like the time we ripped the wall paper off the bedroom that was meant to stay on.... ooops verysorry
Posted By: twowheelkelly

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Jun 2016 12:34pm

Thanks for all your posts - it's good to hear from you again! I will definitely let you know when I plan to have the open days - it will probably be late July/early August at a guess - and I would really like as many genuinely interested people as possible to see it before I part with it...
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Jun 2016 12:53pm

I used to pass the house on my way to work and I was so pleased when it came into the hands of someone who obviously cared for and respected the building very much, and was prepared to go to a lot of trouble to renovate it. I hope whoever looks after it next is as sensitive to how important it is to the history of Wallasey as you have been, and treasures it.
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Jun 2016 1:58pm

Originally Posted by twowheelkelly
Thanks for all your posts - it's good to hear from you again! I will definitely let you know when I plan to have the open days - it will probably be late July/early August at a guess - and I would really like as many genuinely interested people as possible to see it before I part with it...

its a great opportunity to get some "after" pics to go with our "before" pics happy
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2016 8:07pm

any date for the open days yet Roger?
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2016 9:26pm

It was listed on the Heritage Day list. All places fully booked , Rocks.
Posted By: rocks

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Sep 2016 10:22pm

aww noooo i thought it would be posted on here frown
Posted By: locomotive

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 9th Sep 2016 7:06pm

I'm disappointed as well, I've got the free "Heritage List Days" book from the library, it's not in that, I particularly looked for it, ah well, can't win them all.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 9th Sep 2016 8:34pm


https://www.heritageopendays.org.uk/visiting/event/the-old-house-birds-house

I assume this had been arranged through English Heritage Open Days, rather than Wirral Heritage Open Days.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 9th Sep 2016 9:00pm

It's here as well, so not sure what's happened. Send a message and see if anyone cancelled.

https://sites.google.com/site/wirralhha/wirral-heritage-open-days-events---group-3/the-old-house

Posted By: locomotive

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 10th Sep 2016 7:28pm

Thanks for that Granny, I've sent them an email.
Posted By: locomotive

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 11th Sep 2016 5:09pm

I had a reply from Heritage, they were very apologetic, unfortunately the information for Birds House arrived too late to be printed in the book and was only available on line. I didn't look on line, mea culpa.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 11th Sep 2016 8:35pm

What a shame.

A few pics here, before and after.

https://www.facebook.com/limekilnlane/
Posted By: locomotive

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 12th Sep 2016 5:44pm

the pictures were nearly as good as going in person, thanks Granny
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 12th Sep 2016 9:09pm

So you managed to see it Loco ? That's good. There are still so many questions surrounding that house (for me at least).

Information crops up on HSLC about the area, and much more. Painting a picture of how life was, who was who and how their lives were shaped.
I still can't see how a William Bird, in 1697 ( that William was not the Church Warden either) , if he was a lowly yeoman farmer , and at the age of 62yrs, would want to build a house that size and more to the point, how could he afford to ? His family had grown up, and the house was transferred to someone else just a handful of years later after he died in 1706. None of it makes sense.
There is obviously wrong information somewhere that just keeps getting passed on again and again.
Robert Vyner had died in 1688 in debt. His Will says his step nephew inherited. So who did the land belong to in 1697 and why would anyone rebuild a house on someone else's land ?
Too many holes to be filled in yet. Particularly as in Elizabethan era which was written in


St Hilary's Parish records.http://www.hslc.org.uk/documents/PDFS/1883.pdf
Re: One Richard Bird
Page 127/8
" Rental of Poulton @ Seacombe, 5 Eliz."
Had. MS. 2039, p. 89.
(h) " Pet Puford | Richard Brydd a ten' wh housyng thereunto
" Secam f and upon the back side of the house or
" yard croft adioyning to a tent of Mr. houghes.
" Item a barne and a Gardayn upon the backsyde thereof
" adioynyng to Tottyes grounde.
" Item a croft of land called the Stywey croft cont one acre
[and a half],
" Item iij butts called bottynbry dye pyke.
"Item a nother butt called the brewye. (?)
" Item ij butts called Kell londs one but called apodyche
128 Extracts, &c. [APPENDIX C.
" holland cont iij grts of an acre ij butts called butts one qrt
" of an acre Two other butts called grid (?) butts ij p'cells of
" two butts called the Wellyng (?) londs cont. one acre one but
" called Stokkeland (?) a cutting of a but called the brade butt
" at the dale (?) one qrtr of an acre.
"my acres Sfn of the acres belonging).... ,,
"byestima to the said brydd's tent. } mJ acres

What does this mean when it mentions 'tents' ? Everybody seemed to have one !
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Sep 2016 10:16am

Tents = Tenements.


Historic field-name

Bottynbrydge Pykes, Harde Buttes, Heiefeld, le Rake Milne, le Rake Mylne, le Schortefeld, Lower Broad Hey, Pultonling, Redd Londes, Stokkeland, the Brade Butt at the Dale, the Ferry of Pulton, the Stywey Croft, the Swellyng Londes, Tottyes grounde, Wrynkilsiche, Wychehard

Modern field-name

Apple Ditch Hay, Backside, Bank Hay, Black Butt Hay, Brier Ridge, Butlands Hay, Cockbutt, Crook Hay, Cross Looms, Cuff Hay, Duckfield Hay, Farland Hay, Fatan Hay, Flook Hay, Gorsty Hay, Gravelland Hay, Greedy Butt Hay, Hook Hey, Money Part, Pikey Loons, Platkin Hay, Poolton Field, Renwell Hay, Shebsters Meadow, Sitch, Slang, Still Land Hay, Sunderland Hay, The Hooks, Town Field, Twistle Hay, Yards End
Posted By: locomotive

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Sep 2016 8:08pm

Sadly I didn't get to see it, only the photos on facebook.
Posted By: mikeeb

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 17th Sep 2016 12:22am

Originally Posted by granny
There are still so many questions surrounding that house (for me at least).
There is obviously wrong information somewhere that just keeps getting passed on again and again.

I would have to agree granny
Parish of Bidston and Wallasey
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Mar 2017 12:43pm


Is there anyone out there who can translate Latin ?

Even a little would be helpful.

William Birdde /Birdd of Poulton 1606. Will/Inventory.

Terrible copies, but the best I seem able to get at the moment.

Thanks for looking



Attached picture WIN_20170313_114436.JPG
Attached picture WIN_20170313_114624.JPG
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Mar 2017 7:16pm

This might help

Attached picture 250px-Anglosaxonrunes.svg.png
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Mar 2017 10:08pm


laffin
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 13th Mar 2017 11:49pm

It is the Runic alphabet used to write old English before the introduction of the Latin alphabet.It looks like this might be the earliest case of pigeon English.I had to use a spy glass to see what they mean. The one that looks like a sloping F is ash the one with top pointing up is oak. the A with a middle leg is barn, the I is one year, so the nine strokes could be nine years. There is a definite ash symbol on the bottom.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 12:45am

From what I can see.

First document is English with occasional ornate capitals.

Second document is Latin (the only definite word I can make out is filio - son).

Both are in pretty standard but very untidy cursive.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 11:13am

Sorry Dusty, didn't realise. sorry

Yes, I can see where both Dusty and DD are coming from. I think it's a bit of a mixture too. There are certain words \I can pick out, maybe a lot easier for having it on a table in front of me . Never the less, pretty awful.

Looking at other 's it seems that the value of the list of properties is on the right hand side.

The first words I can make out is Inventory, William Bird Poulton, then down to list

yolk, Oxen on the first line.

Stumped after that. On the final sheet, I also got filio and have been trying to work out the initial for the name Bird that subsequently follows. Not knowing the format i.e. if that refers to a witness .

I really didn't expect much and thank you for your suggestions. The show will go on. laugh

Got some more if you want to see them. Difficult to copy as they are on big sheets .
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 4:19pm

I did think I could crack it with this, www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk I could not get a word out of ten, you may do better.The little dots and dashes are like ancient short hand.They say each radio operator had his own signature, and apparently the scribes had theirs.Will have another go later.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 5:16pm

I took the right hand side as being signatures/sign-offs which are mostly the same as those on the bottom line.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 9:23pm

I've not had any luck with that link either Dusty.

However, I have found this below and some of the language is not what we would recognise anyway at that particular time.

e.g Kyne = plural of cow. I think I can see kyne listed on the inventory I posted. So not holding out much hope of deciphering much more.

As an example, same year 1606 :

http://www.boydhouse.com/alice/Green/green06dgrangerancestors.html


[Linked Image]

Imprimis one oxe liijs iiijd

Item twoe kyne iij vis viijd

Item one heifer & a calfe xxxiijd iijd

Item xiii tene old shepe & fower lambes xls

Item six swine xiijs iijd

Item one gelding xxvis iifd

Item geese & pultree iifs

Item corne in the barne xxxiijs iijjd

Item corne on the ground xxs

Item brasse & pewter xxs

Item hey in the barne xxs

Item bedding & all coprie ware xls

Item wooll in the house xs

Item hempe & flax & yearow vs

Item all trewe wooden vessels iijs iiijd

Item ___ about the house iijs iiijd

Item horses cobbarte & other iron stuffe ijs vjd

Item the vesell of the dead xxs

Item money in the house xs

Item tables, forms, chayres, & cubbords & all other things unpraysedvs

Summa totals xxjt viijs xd



DD, I think they have been marked & signed off, and I think the dots are between the Ł....shillings....pence as in this one of James Birdd, Poulton in 1617 .





Attached picture WIN_20170314_164326.JPG
Attached picture WIN_20170314_212953.JPG
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 14th Mar 2017 9:37pm


Whatever else they did, it would seem they all had almost identical handwriting !

Did they deal in shillings and pence or groats back then ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 15th Mar 2017 12:47am

Groats were a coin equal to fourpence, the accounts were pounds shillings and pence from the 8th century onwards (apart from the odd trades that used guineas).

1606 would be bang in the centre of the 100 year abstinence from minting groats.

I had no idea about the letter J being used in Roman Numerals .....

Quote
The letter J originated as a swash letter I, used for the letter I at the end of Roman numerals when following another I, as in XXIIJ instead of XXIII for the Roman numeral representing 23
Posted By: compozz

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 6th Dec 2018 1:10am

May I ask you a question about this post?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 6th Dec 2018 1:52am

Originally Posted by compozz
May I ask you a question about this post?


You have already asked one question, I can see no harm in asking two.
Posted By: compozz

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 6th Dec 2018 5:38pm

Thank you. The message concerns descent of the Bird House in Poulton and was directed to Granny and/or Marty99Fred, who I can't PM but who seem to really know their source materials. I think the speculation from the latter was that the property passed from Robert Williamson to William Bird and Margaret/Margery Bird some time after 1665, then passed to their son Joseph on William's death in 1711. Do either have any actual sources that JOSEPH BIRD - who is connected to the Vyner lease of 25th November 1717 - was the child of William and Margaret?

There's a deceased Henry Bird who was mentioned in the property description, who is probably the Henry Bird “of Poulton” that married Mary Dunn, 6/24/1662 and is mentioned in a church collection @ Wallasey 23 Jul 1671 and as church warden of same on 10 Sep 1671, as well as valuer of the estate of Jane Litherland of Birkenhead Leys @ Poulton, 1675. He looks to be a brother of WILLIAM though I haven't come across any actual documentation that substantiates it, merely inference. Trying to separate these lines of descent has been problematic, so I'm wondering if they have any actual sources.

Great research, and thanks again.

USA-Byrd
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 6th Dec 2018 10:10pm



Can I ask where your line of descent begins and what the dates are. The reason I ask is because, throughout the UK there were many families by the name of Byrd/Bird/Brydd.. and many not connected.
Don't want you to go on a wild goose chase .
I have got quite a lot of the family tree in a box somewhere , so I could possibly help you if it's the correct line. Most of my records were taken from the Parish registers.
It's so complicated with numerous William's, Henry's and others, I really need to know what or who you are stuck with.

The Bird family of Poulton/Wallasey were my father's direct ancestors.
Posted By: compozz

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 6th Dec 2018 10:21pm

Thank you for the reply and I appreciate your help. Detailed response within the hour.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Dec 2018 2:45am



Well folks, I'm sorry to have to do this, but just about ready to throw a spanner in the works. laugh

Bird's House... Williamsons Croft. William Bird passed on to William's son so we get William son Croft clap clap

The Great Rebuilding was between 1570 and 1640. which could in all honesty contribute to the date stone, being 1621, and the way the house looks as if it has been extended above the first level.
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Dec 2018 6:09pm

Interesting that this should crop up now, I passed the house the other day and thought how tidy it was looking - pointing done, windows etc - am very glad it's being cared for. Good luck with the family tree - there are pitfalls aplenty in doing anything like that, as I've found out myself.
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 8th Dec 2018 6:38pm


There was a thread showing the alterations that had been made for parking cars. I hope they haven't taken the beautiful fig tree down. That has as much to do with the house and it's previous occupants, as anything else.

Bird's being people of the church, a fig tree is a symbol of the 'the tree of knowledge' . Too late if it has gone, but I do hope it hasn't.

Posted By: Snodvan

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 9th Dec 2018 12:36pm

I have always been surprised when my (small, tub grown) fig tree produces fruit, as it has for the last 3-4 years. Not many fruits, 8 this year, but interesting.

I always associate figs with growing in a hot climate because I used to see the trees growing by their thousands, literally, in South America. where green figs + cheese is a common snack. Most of "our" shop figs come from Turkey and are brown figs - still good with cheese.

We tend to forget that at this time of the year the climate in the far end of the MED is not amazingly different from UK ie can be cold. Pics refugee camps/ snow in Syria emphasise the issue.

Snod
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 9th Dec 2018 5:31pm

It is cold over there. I remember , after having a terrible trip up the Bosphorus when we thought our end had come, we arrived at Istanbul somewhere around the beginning of January ,and it was snowing, as in snowstorm ! Freezing too !
A few days later we sailed onto Izmir, where it was like summer, although not hot.
Syria does get very cold and snow, from what I can gather.
Look after your little fig tree. Olive trees are another from the same regions, and frost resilient. Symbolic of peace, hence 'holding out the olive branch' .
Posted By: granny

Re: BIRDS HOUSE - 12th Jan 2019 11:37pm

Originally Posted by marty99fred
I�ve had another look at Thomas Taylor�s Survey of Bidston Manor with regard to the date, and the main map showing all the manorial lands is clearly dated 1656. Several of the larger scale maps are dated 1665, whilst others, including the one of Poulton, are undated. I think the correct date is generally assumed to be 1665 because Lord Kingston, for whom the survey was supposedly carried out, didn�t purchase the Manor until 1662.

The survey volume also contains several pages of valuations, together with various amendments and marginal notes, added at later dates. Most of these appear to have been written by Robert Vyner MP (one memorandum begins with the words �I Robert Vyner...�), to whom the Manor passed following the death of Sir Robert Vyner in September 1688.

One page is headed �My Computation of the Value of the Severall [ie separate] Tenements if out of Lease allowing for Taxes which the Tenant pays & all other deductions made in 1719� to which has been added �& reviewed in 1736� in a distinctive shaky handwriting. The only entry for Poulton-cum-Seacombe is the name �Joseph Bird�, which has been subsequently crossed out and had �Hester Moor� written alongside it. The words �now Torbet Walter Kirkpatrick� have then been added underneath by the person with the shaky hand, presumably in 1736. [The word Torbet is uncertain; as I say the handwriting is very shaky and difficult to read, but that�s what it looks like.].

A further section is headed �Old Rents chief rents & Cottages� with �Old Rents reformed in 1762� inserted below. Here under Poulton the name �Joseph Bird� appears followed by �Walter Kirkpatrick�, written by old shaky hand, and �now Gordon� written in yet another hand.

Three more pages follow containing a similar �Computation of the Value of the Several Tenements...� this time made in 1762. Here under Poulton the only name is that of �Walter Kirkpatrick�.

I�m not exactly sure how to interpret all of this, but I�ll have a go. It looks as if at some point tenancy of the Vyner lands in Poulton passed from William Bird to Joseph Bird (possibly with other Birds in between). Then in about 1719 or shortly thereafter the tenancy passed to Hester Moor, possibly only briefly, before ending up with Walter Kirkpatrick, who was the tenant in 1736, when the Valuation was reviewed, and still there in 1762, when the second Valuation Schedule was drawn up. William Kirkpatrick was then followed as tenant by �Gordon�, possibly the James Gordon who appears in the Table of Reference in my earlier post with the maps. All this is pure conjecture, of course, but at least we have some more possible names of tenants for the property!

One interesting point is that the Bird family�s tenancy seems not to have lasted much longer than a couple of generations; I envisaged something more akin to 150 years or so, given the property�s usual name. It is possible therefore that the name Bird�s House is of fairly recent origin, possibly originating with the realisation that the initials WB on the lintel stood for �William Bird�. As I�ve mentioned the property is also simply known as the Old House, so it would be interesting to find out when the name Bird�s House/Tenement first came into common usage.


This quote is from page 14. if anyone might be interested to see other information on the same page.

Having been sifting through all my hand written notes about this family, which are in the main notes taken from the Parish records that were held in Earlston Library.

William Bird married Mary Williamson, daughter or Robert Williamson . They had a son, Joseph, baptised
on 12th March 1647.

I have not any record for their marriage but it was obviously prior to march 1647.

That could well be when the tenancy transferred over. In 1665 Joseph, would have been of age (18) and was then in his name. J Bird could have been mistaken for T Bird. when we see some of the writings.

At the moment, I have no idea which William Bird it could have been. (so many of them )
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