Magazine Village Bromborough.

Does anybody have any photographs or information regarding this 'lost' village? It was precisely where 'McTay Marine' is today - I think it was built in the 1850's and the last house was demolished round about 1971. I've posted a scan of a photo taken in 1969, and a modern view of the same area. My grandparents lived there until about 1971.


It was reached by a track (Magazine Lane) that ran from the junction of Stadium Road and Magazine Road - I remember when I was a lad that there was a signal box there - I think the area was known as Port Rainbow.

Not a lot of people know that this village (of about 14 houses) ever existed - even people in Bromborough!, but my Grandfather worked there on the gunpowder boats/hulks, including 'Swallow' - a wooden ex-Royal Navy Frigate/Sloop, I believe it dated from the 1860's. Does anyone know it's original identity/class, etc? It was broken up in 1949 (see photo taken just beforehand).

Before the 'Swallow', at the turn of the century there were apparently two other gunpowder ships - the 'Mersey' and the 'Liverpool'. Does anybody have any information on these ships - what they looked like or whether they were ex-RN also?

Perhaps I should start a new topic for this village - it witnessed some interesting events that cross-thread with other topics on WirralHistory: the Maunsell 'Sea Forts' were built there before being towed into Liverpool Bay, and a German Junkers 88 crashed there - my father actually witnessed the shooting down as a 13 yr old, with a Hurricane fighter doing a victory roll over the crash site. I've seen these two mentioned in other topics on here. There was also a land-mine blast that followed the Lever Bros railway cutting, and took the roof off my grandparents house.

One other question: An American freighter the 'Gateway City' ran aground there in, I think 1937, and was re-floated later (see scan of the Liverpool Daily Post clipping). Does anyone know what became of her? Did she survive the War? (Oops, that's two questions...).


Thanks for your time.

Billy.

Billy

There is some info on the Hulks here.

and some info on Brom Pool village here

Its not much and is something id like to learn more info about my self. I believe there more about it in ther archives in town.

Thanks Doctor - much appreciated. I'll take a look.

Billy.

That iss really good, I didn't know that it even existed.

cheers pal aint been down there since i was a kid on a bike can you still go down there

The last expansion of McTay Marine was built on top of the last remains of the cottages. Good find, I was never aware of this at all.

The Bromborough details from the 1857 Post Office Directory for Cheshire have been transcribed here www.andysutton.co.uk/old/1857bromborough.htm and include the following -
Peers, William - Storekeeper to the Liverpool floating gunpowder magazines
Leay, Richard - Assistant Storekeeper to the Liverpool floating gunpowder magazines

In 1864 the Lottie Sleigh was at anchor in the Mersey and she was carrying 11 tons of gunpowder. A fire broke out and the subsequent explosion was heard 30 miles away. Read all about it here http://blog.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/MaritimeTalesTerrorOfTheLottieSleigh.aspx

Some newspaper cuttings re the Bromborough floating magazines.
In the Hampshire Telegraph article, there is a reference to "450l per annum". The "l" is the old alternative symbol for £ ("l" = livre = pound).

Thanks greasby_lad - that's great stuff and much appreciated.

Here's a few more photos:
One taken from the village showing the southern extent of Bromborough dock wall - the 'Swallow' can be seen in the background on the river.

One of the men that ran the Magazines (My Grandad's in the middle) - the dock wall is still being built in this one, and again, the 'Swallow' magazine can be seen in the background.

The other photo shows the 'Swallow' herself - the red band can be seen as the dark stripe around the hull in this one, and if the picture is closely looked at, it can be just made out that there is a slight 'kink' in the hull just behind the mast - the ships back was broken.

If anyone's got more to add, please post it!!

Thanks all,
Billy.

Note: correction added by Billy on 22 Feb 2013 see post 770942

I could be wrong?? but I think I seen a piece of a gunpowder boat that blew up. Its in the williamson art gallery and it looks like one of the pulleys of the rigging. It was found near the bebington church. Not sure if it was the Lotte Sleigh though??

i remember going down to mctay back in '05 be4 i left 4 aus and my dad telling me as a kid he used to watch the ships being launched from there and he used to live on port causeway just nearby

Good pic Billy. Nice to see some old photos with people in who you know. Always brings the photo to life. I found a good one with my relatives in it. (sorry in know its off topic.



This is the old Smithy in Moreton Village. The second man in from the left is my Great Great uncle, Thomas Mutch. The smithy was in Neatherton Rd.

Some information about the situation before the Bromborough floating gunpowder magazines, taken from E.C.Woods 1925 "Further Notes on the Penkett Family" (THSLC vol 78 1926) -

One of the questions that I have long had was if ‘Swallow the magazine hulk’ had been the Royal Navy ship ‘HMS Swallow’, so I must thank greasby_lad for providing a major clue to the probable answer with the clipping from the Hampshire Telegraph dated 23rd Aug 1882 that he provided, especially this bit:

“The owners of the Liverpool floating gunpowder magazines have applied to the Admiralty for permission to use the Lapwing or Swallow gunboats as a powder depot”

So, it would seem that Swallow the gunpowder hulk was indeed HMS Swallow the Royal Navy ship. If a choice was to be made between the Lapwing and Swallow, then the class of ship would surely have been a “Plover Class Wooden Gun vessel” as the two were sister ships at that time.

Based on the above, I found this information from the internet:

Plover Class
HMS Swallow Built: Portsmouth Dockyard
Launched: 16 November 1868
Hull: Wood
Propulsion: Screw
Type: Gunvessel
Guns: 3
Disposal: 1882
Notes: Sold to A.Tobin on 18th October 1882

So, HMS Swallow was sold to an ‘A Tobin’ (in 1882 – the date fits with the newspaper cutting). Who was ‘A Tobin’?

There were no A.Tobin’s in the census records for 1882 that I could find - apart from a labourer (not likely to have afforded a ship!), so after a bit more digging, it would seem that ‘A Tobin’ was in fact James Aspinall Tobin, son of Thomas Tobin, reputed to have been a Slave Trader descended from a smuggling family.

This family were also deeply involved with Gunpowder trading – so it all fits together. I think that this is the man who bought the ‘Swallow’ from the Navy.

In the 1861 census, James is described as being a ‘Magistrate and African Merchant’, which would maybe indicate he had something to do with slaves as well?

This is an extract from the family history on the Internet:

From around 1800 Thomas Tobin had lived in Liverpool, possibly with a country home at Eastham House, Eastham which was later occupied by his son James Aspinall Tobin.

James Aspinall Tobin became Mayor of Liverpool in 1854. Further family respectability came with James's son, Sir Alfred Aspinall Tobin (1855-1939) being appointed a judge. There are four portraits of him in the National Portrait Gallery.

In 1901, he still lived with his widowed mother, the wife of James, Olivia Maria Aspinall Tobin at Eastham House, however in 2007; Eastham House is an old people's home.

And Eastham House (Eastham Village Road) is not too far from his Gunpowder stores. All quite interesting stuff…


I’ve included a side profile of the Swallow hulk for comparison with the other two photographs attached. They are of HMS Swallow’s sister ships HMS Magpie and HMS Ringdove (I can’t find one of HMS Swallow itself at the moment, but this must be what she looked like when in Navy service).

If I've been barking up the wrong tree - please let me know, and if you've got more to add, please post!!
Cheers,
Billy.

Very good research, but I'm afraid I may be going to throw a spanner in the works.

The HMS Swallow which you cite was built in 1868, however most reports say that the powder hulks were in position in the early to mid 1850s.

The HMS Swallow before the one you mention was built in 1854 and sold in 1866. This is also too late.

I can find no reference to it (the earlier Swallow that I can find was about at the end of the 1790s), I would imagine that there was an HMS Swallow which would have been disposed of around 1852/53. (probably built at the end of the 1830s)

This could well be the one used as the powder hulk.

Please don't be disheartened, as I am probably totally wrong!!

Carry on the research.

I have a recollection from the '50s that parts of the Mulberry Harbour were built at Port Rainbow (McTays now?) about 1944, but haven't any proof. It's unlikely there would be any photos!! Highly secret stuff!
Bri

Further to my above post, I've found this from the fascinating book 'The Railways of Port Sunlight and Bromborough Port' by M.D.Lister, Oakwood Press, 1980.
It's about WW2 activities in the soap works and Bromborough Dock area:

Hi uptoncx - Thanks . I know were you are coming from - I looked at the earlier Swallow's too - but none of these matched the size (175ft) of the ship that was built in 1868.

All the other facts fit this later ship too:

The Tobin family bought an HMS Swallow from the Navy in 1882 - part of their interests was as gunpowder merchants

The Hampshire Telegraph article (posted by greasby-lad) from 1882 states that the owners:



This must be the ship built in 1868, as that was the only Swallow under Admiralty control in 1882.

The Swallow and Lapwing were also sister ships - earlier HMS Swallow's did not have sister ships of that name. It would seem logical to choose ships of equal size.

So why would the Swallow be a "late arrival", so to speak? Well I think there may be another clue in the same Hampshire Telegraph article. It starts:


Don't forget that this is 1882 - and the powder hulks, as you say, had been in position since the 1850's.

So what was the question about the storage - inadaquate facilities?

Could it be, that the 'Mersey' and 'Liverpool' (the only other two hulks that I know about) were either a) inadaquate to store the quantities demanded, or b) were in such a poor state of repair that a 'new' hulk - the Swallow - had to be drafted in?

My guess is b), as the 'Mersey' and 'Liverpool' do not seem to survive the turn of the century - I can't find any drawing or photograph of them, although it is likely that they were ex-RN also (but of an earlier period). I'm guessing that they were 'HMS Mersey' and 'HMS Liverpool' at one time - I've no idea when though - can anyone help?. The Swallow soldiered on alone until just after the end of WW2, when she was broken up on the foreshore in front of the village.

What do you reckon? I appreciate that spanner though - all helps to concentrate the mind!!

Thanks as well Bri445 for the mention if the Mulberry Harbours and the Cleveland Bridge and Engineering Company Ltd .
I spoke to my Father last night - and he tells me that, yes, they were built at Magazine Village too. My Fathers' first job was working for the Cleveland Bridge and Engineering Company Ltd which in 1943 were building the Maunsell Sea Forts. Once that contract ended another company moved in (he couldn't remember the name off-hand) and started on the Mulberry Harbours. He said that he couldn't remember too much about them, as he had moved to a new job by that time - wiring up Mosquito's for Martin Hearn's at Hooton Park.

Anyway, hope that this is all of interest somehow.

Cheers,
Billy

Thanks,Billy, for the confirmation on Mulberry Harbour. Apparently the components were made in many different places around the coast, so that no one really knew what they were for, thus maintaining the secrecy.
Bri

A few notes on the powder vessels, all from the Liverpool Mercury (no spanners this time .... well, maybe the odd one)

November 19th 1850

Reported on the preliminary meeting to consider the removal of the Gunpowder Magazines at Liscard.

May 16th 1851

A bill was introduced into parliament by Sir George Grey and Mr Bouverie on 16th May 1851 to enable floating magazines to be moored on the River Mersey.

August 22nd 1851

Reported that the site for the floating magazine had been agreed, but not yet named.

September 9th 1851

“A preliminary meeting of the owners and occupiers of property at the Dingle and Aigburth [. . . .] to protest against the removal of the powder magazines to Bromborough Pool.”

April 9th 1852

“Three vessels are now being built to be anchored in the river as the powder ships on the removal of the magazines – one by Mr Royden, one by Mr Clarke, and another by a builder not yet named . [ . . . . ] The vessel building by Mr Royden, from which we judge of the whole, is a wooden ship, of about 700 tons. Her framing and planks are fastened with wooden trunnels and copper bolts and not the smallest particle of iron will be used in the construction of any part of the vessel. These floating magazines are so formed as to be best adapted to their purpose.”

June 1st 1852

“Arrangements have been perfected for commencing the erection of the storekeeper, assistant keeper, and workmen’s houses on a plot of land at Bromborough. The land purchased comprises about two acres; and buildings, which will, for the present, be about ten in number, will cost about £2,500. The powder vessels, which are to be three in number, are to be moored between Bromborough Pool and Eastham [ . . . . ] Two of the floating magazines will cost £21,000 and they are now ready for launching – one from the yard of Messrs, Clarke, and the other from that of Mr Royden.”

July 27th 1852

The powder ships were in position by 27th July 1852 as the Liverpool Mercury of that date describes a model yacht race which used one of them as a marker.

July 9th 1881

“over 400 tons [of gunpowder] stored in the two hulks or powder vessels.”

July 28th 1881

J.A.Tobin is described as the “Superintendent of the powder magazines”.

October 23rd 1882

"It is proposed to put a third gunpowder hulk in the neighbourhood of the two now moored off Bromborough, this hulk is an old gunboat, not specially constructed, as are the existing ones”

June 4th 1890

“But what are these strange-looking craft that are now coming in sight? Secured by thick-linked iron cables, their position being not far from the prettily-wooded Eastham, and just below the ominously named sandbank “The Devil’s Spit’, these are the Mersey powder hulks. They are painted a sort of dirty yellow, with a broad belt of dirty red, and the copper fastening adds a dirty green tint. [ . . . . ] Coming close to the first of the hulks [ . . . . ] they saw that the hulk was named the Liverpool. [ . . . . ] Hulk No 2 is called the Mersey and her dimensions and proportions are similar to those of the Liverpool. [ . . . . ] The [third] hulk is called the Swallow, the name the vessel bore when she sailed proudly in distant seas under her Majesty’s flag. Her figure-head, a flying swallow, remains, and the grace of her outlines is a striking contrast to the clumsiness of those of her companions. “

So it would appear that the original powder vessels were not hulks at all, but brand new, purpose built ships. Were three ever built? Only two builders are named, and only two were ready for launching in June 1852, and again in July 1881 only two are referred to.

There's some really good stuff in there Upton - thanks, it's very much appreciated.

It will take me a bit of time to digest, but there doesn't appear to be too many spanners in there (OK, maybe a small wrench!!)

Interesting that the Liverpool and Mersey were purpose built - now that's completely thrown me!!

I wonder what happened to the figurehead on the Swallow? - it had certainly disappeared in later years.

Thanks again,
Billy.

I thought looking through all the evidence above, the Swallow and Lapwing were most certainly the ships of the same HMS name. There is a description of all the changes made to one of these to make it into a powder hulk, somewhere. These changes were quite comprehensive and may have been called a "build".

I spotted some candidates for the Mersey and Liverpool last night, there were quit a few ships sold and became powder hulks. I presume they were called Mersey and Liverpool because of their final occupation, not because of their original names, highly unlikely to be HMS with the same names.

The only information I can find about the fitting out of the Swallow is this:

The 'Powder Ships' were painted yellow with wide red bands all round. In daytime they flew a red flag, 6ft by 3ft; at night time two lamps were hoisted on a central mast, one red the other white; the red one was six feet above the white one, both lights being about 3 ft from the deck. A special oil was used in all lamps on board called 'Colzar', a vegetable oil. There was also a white light on the stern.

The 'Swallow' was overall wooden, 175 ft long, the bottom being copper sheathed up to the water line; just above the water line it had hard wooden belting for fenders. On each side were five ports, with hinged door flaps, which would be pulled upright by hand to reveal a leather padded passage which was on an approximate level with the decks of the 'hoys' and used to roll the kegs of gunpowder in and out of the vessels.

On the foredeck was a storage cabin where ropes etc. were kept. At the stern end were the watchmen's quarters and the 'skipping' room. From the watchmen's quarters a companion ladder went down below to a platform which went right round the inside of the ship, with a wall of interlocked timber totally enclosing the magazines. Opposite the five ports in the outer hull on each side were five doors, with brass locks and hinges only, opened by a master key. The doors were named after their position in the ship: the After Door, the After But One, Middle Port, Bow But One, and the Bow Door, each giving access to a stage 6ft square which was raised 3ft off the ship's bottom floor.



Quite right dd - on reflection it should have been obvious (or a very big coincidence) that an "HMS Mersey" and "HMS Liverpool" should have ended up together as hulks... I'm still new to this 'sleuthing' stuff

Cheers,
Billy.

Thanks for that Billy, that is the description I was thinking of, it would be quite a conversion from the original ship.

I wasn't aware the Mulberry Harbours had a connection here, what a massive project!

Mulberry Harbours as well as Pluto - Bromborough must have been buzzing during the war.

Picture of the Maunsell Forts under construction at the Cleveland Bridge and Engineering Co, Bromborough.

Something pictures of the Village itself that I hope is of interest:

I believe that Lever brothers owned Magazine Village (certainly in later years) so that prompted me to contact the very helpful people in Unilever Archives to see if they had anything. After some digging, they provided me with a few high quality photographs of the Village as it was in 1953 - so thanks to them.

Whilst Unilever Archives has no objection to the publishing of these photographs on this forum, no records survive about the photographer(s) and Unilever do not know what rights they bought with these photographs. Therefore, although every effort has been made to trace copyright holders and gain permission for use of these images, I would be grateful for any information concerning copyright and will ask for the withdrawal of the images immediately on the copyright holder’s request if necessary.

Three photographs are shown here - I hope that they convey something of the atmosphere to those who never saw the Village (and those that did). Also, if anyone has anything similar, please, please post it!!

Cheers,
Billy.


Photo 1 shows a distant view of the whole of the village - the track in the foreground (Magazine Lane) was the main access road. It's all a bit different now!!

Photo 2 shows the rear of the cottages which faced the river (seen in the background). My grandparents lived in this block of cottages until 1969/70.

Photo 3 shows the middle of the village - I believe that this was once the pay office, although it seemed to contain oars, ropes, etc in later years. The MacTay buildings sit bang on top of this site now...

Hey - good digging there Billy - thanks

Also a big Thank You to Unilever Archives

Great to have those pics. I too have found Unilever Archives very helpful.

I may have made a leap of imagination, but I was browsing the WikiWirral History the other day and came across an appeal for pictures of New Ferry – see:
Help finding pictures of New Ferry

Just down the first page, PaulWirral has made a contribution, and there is a drawing captioned “The magazine ships are seen moored off New Ferry.”

This picture is dated 1864.

Now the leap. Although their names are not given, surely the two ships depicted on this drawing must be the ‘Liverpool’ and the ‘Mersey’? (see questions posed earlier in this thread)

They were built in 1852, and this picture is dated 12 years later – I don’t think there were any other magazines on the Mersey at that time. By off ‘moored New Ferry’, did they mean Bromborough? (are Parish boundaries a little different when applied to rivers?). The view also shows their design as slightly clumsy - which fits with the description (contributed by uptoncx) from the ‘Liverpool Mercury from June 4th 1890:

The [third] hulk is called the Swallow… ...and the grace of her outlines is a striking contrast to the clumsiness of those of her companions. “

They certainly don’t look as sleek as the Swallow! I really didn’t think any views would exist for them, so I’m quite excited by this picture, but before I get carried away, I’d be interested what others think? What do you reckon?

I hope it’s of interest anyway…

Cheers,
Billy.

Thanks to PaulWirral for his helpful PM's BTW.

Just got my ancestor's death certificate (John Davies HOWARD) in Liverpool
the informant, as sister, is Jane LEAY of Magazines, Bromborough, Cheshire

1881 shows she is the wife of James LEAY living at Magazine Cottages, Bromborough, Cheshire aged 36

My grandmother was born Annie Leay ALDRIDGE (often mistaken for Leah)

Her grandmother Mary WILSON (prev BURNETT, nee HOWARD) was the daughter of John Davies HOWARD

Any details on the LEAY family welcome

Thank you.

fantastic pictures of the village - thanks for posting - didnt see them on the previous computer I used - what a sin they were demolished - look sturdy buildings!

shame!

link doesnt seem to work now!

:-(

Bromorough section of the 1857 Post Office Directory for Cheshire.

as a kid in the 1950s i delivered papers to magazine village the single track cinder path used to scare the hell out of me every night pitch black, there were two small rows of houses on the right paralel to the shore, on the right the path split with house backing to each other and a mortury in lane towards the shore, the house by the dock wall was ocupied by a mr.rogers,he had the contract for scraping the wooden boats and barges, as kids we would play on the boats moored on the end of the wall three boats deep, in return for playing on them when the very high tides came dozens of kids would help to pull the boats to the shore edge and tied they would then be burnt out whenthe tides fell back, mr. rogers would collect the metal, rivets etc. for scrap, , the signal box at port rainbow had aman with a red flag and a green one, he would come out and wave the traffic to stop and the steam train to go across the road,happy days....

great pics of old village in the 50s that small building boarded up was our scout hut, the 13th bebington, we were told it used to be the old mortury?

Wasn't their a James LEAY at Tam O'Shanter and the same one who carved his name into the sandstone on Bidston Hillnot far from the windmill?

Very sadly, my Dad passed away a few weeks ago, which meant getting things in order. Whilst rummaging in my Dad’s garage, an old brass key was found, which is a bit special, as it’s quite likely to be the last remaining identifiable and tangible artefact from the days of the magazine hulks at Bromborough. The key is quite large (4 ½”-5 ½” long) and has a brass tag with the words ‘MAGAZINE DOOR No1’ stamped on it. A smaller key accompanies it.

The description of the ‘Swallow’ (see earlier post – #335954 - 15th Jul 2009) states:
Opposite the five ports in the outer hull on each side were five doors, with brass locks and hinges only, opened by a master key”,

So this raises the question: Is this one of the master keys for the magazine hold? I personally think so, but either way, it is a rather nice relic and I treasure it, even if the blade of the key has been broken off.
I’ve included a picture of the loading of the ‘Swallow’ as it shows the cases of gunpowder being passed through the outer hull, and the door to the magazine would have been behind the shoulder of the loader (I believe the man in the shot to be Mr Linton, but unfortunately can’t confirm that any more)

I have found a few other things lately with respect to Magazine Village, so felt I should share them here too.

In my OP on this thread, I asked about the ‘Gateway City’ that ran aground here in about 1937. No further details on the fate of the ship have been forthcoming, but I have found another newspaper clip of the event, probably from the Liverpool Daily Post – ‘Nearly Hit powder Boat’

The last picture is an udated picture of the ‘Eastham Hulk and Hoys’ (the hoys were small boats that carried the gunpowder from the shore to the hulk), and is very interesting in that it shows a hulk that is definitely not the ‘Swallow’. So could this be the ‘Liverpool’ or ‘Mersey’?

Two interesting photographs found in the family collection recently, both taken at Magazine Village, but I suspect a couple of decades apart. I don't think either have been seen outside of the family before.

The first one of the Co-Op Services delivery van I'm guessing was taken early thirties? Perhaps the van enthusiasts out there can identify the make and era of the van? Interesting lack of health and safety with the two discarded oxy-acetylene bottles in front of, and between the wheels...

I reckon the second one was taken in the early years of the century and shows the river framed between the trees at the end of Magazine Lane (same location as the previous photo). It’s very interesting as it captures an Eastham Ferry paddle boat underway in the background – although in poor condition, it’s rare to find any images of these ferries underway (taken from land anyway), and it must be before 1929, when the Eastham Ferries ceased operation.
Hope it shows up OK when I post.

My guess is that it’s either the ‘Pearl’ or the ‘Ruby’, as the third boat in the fleet had a slightly squatter funnel. Be interested in comments though.

Hi I'm trying to find our about Frank Roberts who used to break and salvage wooden boats on the shore at Magazine Village - we often used to play down there. Do you know if it was his business or if he was working for someone else?

Hi qhist,
I'm guessing you mean Frank Rogers? I remember Frank ('Uncle Frank' to me) very well. He was the manager of the gunpowder stores at Magazine Village, and as such had a larger, detatched house on the edge of the village near where the dock wall started - for some reason, I remember his lawn, which was always beautifully manicured, and his lovely old 3-legged dog called 'Lobby'. I always enjoyed going to see Uncle Frank - happy days.
When the gunpowder work dried up he moved into boat-breaking on the foreshore, mainly to get the non-ferrous metals out of them - anything brass or copper - I'm sorry though, I don't know if he was a one-man band or part of a bigger enterprise. It's one of the questions I should have asked my Dad when he was here...
I think Frank was the last to leave the village before it was demolished, and he was given a small bungalow in Eastham, which I also visited many times.
I've got a ration book of his at home for some reason...
Anyway, here's a picture of Frank, once again thanks to the courtesy of Unilever Archives.

Where are Unilever Archives and are they open to general viewing?
Would they have old pictures of Bromborough Pool village?
My ancestors lived there and worked at Price's Candle Works late 1850's.The house in York St now gone. I think it was number 5

Unilver Archives Website: Here

Now that you come to mention it, I think the pictures I posted at the Bromborough Pool thread (post #688370 - 27th Apr 2012) were from Unilever.
I think that they posted them to me in error when I was asking them about Magazine Village - so yes I think they have got some.
(Incidently one of the pictures I posted at that link show York Street...)

I’ve been meaning to correct this for some time now, as I don’t want to mislead anyone – what we write now may be taken as ‘gospel’ in future years.

At post #333622 - 3rd Jul 2009, I posted a picture Pic 2 Description: The 'Magazines' Men, which stated which I now know to be an incorrect statement, and if I’d have looked more closely, I would have realised my Grandad looks far too old in the picture for that to be correct (was the dock wall built c1925?)

The picture actually shows the dock wall in wartime (1942 or 1943 I think) and the steel pilings round the dock wall in the background actually form the coffer dam for constructing the concrete cruciform bases for the Maunsell Sea-Forts (later positioned in Liverpool Bay). I realised when looking at photographs in a book that my Father had on the Maunsell Sea Forts, which I have recently acquired, and the photograph details in that volume matched this one. Therefore I’m pleased to set the record straight - it's been niggling me.

Here’s the photograph again:

Thanks, Billy; note added to your earlier post.

* Topic Merged into this Topic.

My dad and his family lived in the now lost Magazine Village, Bromborough. His father, George Wright, worked on-board The Swallow, which was a gunpowder boat/ship. This meant carrying gunpowder from anchored ships down the Mersey for storage. I believe that there was 2 other boats/ships.

I was wondering if anyone had any more information/pictures regarding these boats.

This is the only image that my father had of The Swallow in it's entirety, and below this, an image of the Crew members. (see attachment).

Somewhere on Wiki, there is a topic on the gunpowder boats with some pictures,

Try here,

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/333138/Magazine_Village_Bromborough.html

* Thanks Bert Topic now merged into this one above this post.

Access to the area where Magazine Village was has recently been blocked. Until a couple of months ago, it was possible to walk down to the riverbank along to Bromborough Pool via the old quayside near McTays yard, but this has recently been fenced off. I asked the security man there and was told that the quay was being worked on so public access has been stopped.There is now no public access to the riverbank from New Ferry all the way to Eastham as the Bromborough Pool access was blocked a couple of years ago!

I must admit I never knew about this village despite living only half a mile or so away for almost 30 years! To put into perspective exactly where it was, it's the group of buildings in the top RH corner, with Stadium Road and it's junction with Magazine Lane on the left - http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw025162?search=brotherton%20bromborough&ref=16

Thanks Steve for the update - It’s an eyesore down there nowadays. I find it quite appalling the way that this area has been mutilated and denied to public access since the village was demolished – I could roam anywhere on it as a boy, and it was my father’s playground as a boy all the way to Eastham Woods. I can ‘sort of’ understand the dock wall being closed off, as it’s reclaimed land – but the whole of the shore to Eastham? Surely that’s been a public right of way for centuries? But who am I to say – all I know that my Father was quite, quite saddened by what had happened to his home surroundings by the time he passed away a few years ago.

Thanks for that link Cobby. Coincidentally enough, I had just stumbled over those pictures too, only last week! There's quite a lot of Brotherton's and Port Rainbow dating between 1928 and 1947. They’re really clear when you're registered and zoom in, and some show the gunpowder magazine ‘Swallow’ quite clearly moored in the river – like this one: Britain from Above

In response to a request in another thread, here are some additional pictures of the Swallow which have previously only had a limited audience.

Steve – thanks for the pictures, the one of the crew matches (regarding dress – probably the same day) the one I posted in the thread that Bert links to above. I think we’ve got a copy of that one somewhere in our family. I’ve seen that side view of the Swallow before, but that’s the clearest one I’ve seen – thank you for posting.

Your Grandfather worked with my Grandfather on the Swallow, and your Dad was mates with my Dad.

Just a thought, but to try to stop the thread creeping into two separate ones, it might be worth asking the mods/admin to merge this one with the older one?
Anyway, I’ve put some additional pictures of the Swallow on the other one here - Wiki Magazine Village if you want to take a look – it shows some of the deck (that look a bit grim) - I don’t think they have been published anywhere before.

It sure is, but have a look at this link:
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/eaw004093
by 1947 the wall to the left has become just a retainer for reclaimed land, with the only water in there, where the forts/Mulberrys were being built a few years previously.
If you look further up this view - you can see the developed Bromborough Dock, which was very heavily utilised by the USATC in WW2 - to unload ammunition and supplies - Liverpool and Birkenhead Docks were deemed too vulnerable for such traffic.

A way back in this thread, I was trying to get an impression of the history for the Swallow gunpowder hulk, specifically, what it was originally. After looking at many, many pictures of Victorian ships, I’ve finally managed to find a photograph of the 1868-built ‘HMS Swallow’ as it was in its heyday.
Sorry, I can’t post the original here due to copyright - suffice to say though, I now believe that this is the final evidence that the 1868 ‘HMS Swallow’ indeed became the ‘Swallow’ gunpowder hulk.

I have been manipulating the image, and I reckon I’ve mangled it enough from the original so that comparison views can be posted here for all to form their own opinion.

The first picture here shows two views side-by-side – the top one is of HMS Swallow, and the bottom one is of the hulk Swallow. Unfortunately the two pictures are not plumb side views – the top one is slightly tending to be ‘stern on’ and the lower one is definitely tending to be ‘bow on’ (and is sitting slightly higher in the water), so absolute comparisons can’t be made without skewing and stretching the pictures (and I haven’t got photoshop), but I’ve tried to show the matches as best I can. I suppose I should be grateful that they are both starboard photographs!

The arrows attempt to align features with each other – all portholes are accounted for, as well as the bow and aft gun ports, the steps mid-ships, and the hatch/window aft. There is even some ‘witness’ evidence remaining on the hulk view of the ornate gallery work at the stern that was once there (as seen on the upper view).

The second picture shows the hulk Swallow with selected pieces from the HMS Swallow picture ghosted on to it in an attempt to give an idea of how she was modified for her new role. De-masted, all machinery (including funnel) removed, the curved bowsprit plank cut off giving a straight stem, and painted yellow overall with a red warning band.

The third picture tries to show the detail of where the bowsprit plank was cut off, the ‘U’-shaped piece sticking up being where the bowsprit was supported and secured. It would seem that this bowsprit plank was not cut off immediately, as the snippit dated June 4th 1890 from uptoncx in post #335717 states:
I’m not sure how these pictures will look once uploaded (they always tend to resize on me), but <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- (zoom in and out) and <ctrl+shift>0 (return to normal size) should help to see the etail.

Anyway, I hope all this has been of interest, and as always, all opinions or comments are welcomed.

A fine bit of work there Billy. Most interesting !

Thanks Pinz - appreciated!

After viewing this forum many times and enjoying, I finally decided to register so I could see photos. So thrilled to see the 3 pics of Magazine Village that I'd not seen before. I lived in Terminus Road for most of my life and going 'down the shore' was a huge part of mine and my sisters' lives. What joy! And thanks to you Billy for your research..

You're more than welcome Jessicah! I'm very happy that the thread has brought back the memories for you - that's what makes it all worthwhile and what WikiWirral is all about really.

Here's another one, just for you. Thanks once again to Lever Archives, and the caveat regarding copyright that was posted with the original three (post #337023) still applies to this picture too.
The aerial picture shows the location the picture was taken from in relation to the village.

Hi Billy - thanks again for the photos of Magazine Village. I'm trying to help my sister to register on the site so she can enjoy all the information etc. She lives in Willaston so I might have to wait until I visit next and do it for her! As my family lived in Terminus Road from 1934-1988 and we walked down to the shore via the village HUNDREDS of times,I'm wondering if I knew of your grandparents, if not my sisters might. What was there name?

Best wishes

Hi Jessicah - you have a PM.