Ok heres a conondrum for ya..


Whilst researching Hillbark in Frankby i stumbled across some strange fingings. The history of the house from Hillbarks website reads as follows:

"The house was originally built in 1891 (on Bidston Hill) for the soap manufacturer Robert William Hudson. Germany’s Crown Prinz Wilhelm was so impressed with the house that in 1913 he built a copy for himself in Potsdam; the famous Potsdam Agreement at the end of World War 2 was signed there. Hillbark was sold in 1921 to Sir Ernest Royden and in 1928 was moved to its present site, brick by brick, finally being completed in 1931.

Ok so it states that it was not moved until 1928 to franky ? However in Philip Sulleys The Hundred of Wirral from 1889 he states that Hillbark was built by John Robin in 1868. Also stating that it contained a mere in its gardens known as Frankby Mere. If you check the online Tithe maps:

http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/

It shows a building in the same space as Hillbark today, in the same shape, owned by John Robin. Am i missing something here or have Hillbarks website got their own history wrong ??

Answers on a postcard

Doctor Frick

Good spot fricky...

Pure conjecture but ... I think that area was already called Hillbark and the building just took the area name. Plot 169 on the tithe map is the building you mention and is recorded as a barn (though must have been BIG), perhaps this was called Hillbark first.

"Bidston Court" was built in 1891 for Robert Hudson, as you say, there was, however already a house called "Hillbark" which is described as being 'of the same type'. This house was demolished in 1929 when "Bidston Court" was moved there and given the name of the old house.

Picture of the original Hillbark:

Isn't that building still there on the left as you go in Royden Park - is it Royden Hall community centre? About 15 years since I last went there though.

Ok - I will argue with myself as usual - no it is probably not that building, or was it, I remembered it having a tower. Can anyone tell me if this is Royden Hall.

That building is known as the Coach House.
Royden Hall is HERE but I don't think its the building you are on about

Until the mid-nineteenth century the site of Royden Park was still largely farmland. However, by 1844 there were in existence areas of 'plantation' which were to form the basis of a parkland landscape which still exists today. The land was purchased in 1865 by Septimus Ledward Esq. J.P. who built a sandstone house called 'Hillbark' on the site of an ancient tithebarn. The house was erected between 1868 and 1870 and the surrounding grounds were laid out with gardens and glasshouses, a dovecote and a bowling green.

The present house of Hillbark was erected in 1931 by Sir Ernest B. Royden after whom the park is named. This mock-Tudor building, originally known as Bidston Court, was built near Bidston Hill in 1891 for the soap manufacturer R. W. Hudson, and then moved brick by brick to its present commanding position. Following the death of Sir E. B, Royden the park was acquired in 1961 by Hoylake Urban District Council for use as 'public open space'. Hillbark is now an hotel and conference centre and is not open to the public.

from http://www.wirral.gov.uk/LGCL/100006/200073/1008/content_0000984.html

Thanks Colgo
Sorry to temporarily pinch thread Fricky

Just to join all of the above together, and to help remove any confusion (well, I’m confussed even if nobody else is):

In 1865 Septimus Ledward esq. J.P. bought a piece of land in Frankby from the executors of John Robin. Between 1868 and 1870 a house was built on the land, on the site of an ancient tithe barn on the summit of Frankby Hill. The house, named “Hill Bark” was designed by G T Grayson of Liverpool and enlarged in 1882. It may have looked like this:



The surrounding grounds were laid out with gardens and glasshouses and covered an area of 2 acres.

A coach house and clock tower were built in the grounds, this is now the visitor centre in Roydon Park.



Lodges in the same style as the main house were also built at the entrances to the park.

Meanwhile, in 1891, R.W.Hudson had a house built in Noctorum, based on the plans of Little Moreton Hall in Congleton. The house cost £150,000 to build and was called “Bidston Court”. It had a fine view westwards across the peninsula to the distant Welsh hills. Such was its prominence that, during the First World War, the Germans had thought of using the tall chimneys as range detectors for shelling Liverpool Docks.

Sir Ernest Roydon, who was married to the daughter of Septimus Ledward, bought “Bidston Court” in 1920. When Ledward died, “Hill Bark” came into the possession of Lady Roydon.

The Roydon’s liked “Bidston Court”, but didn’t like its position. They didn’t like “Hill Bark”, but did like its position, so Sir Ernest decided to move, and take the house with him.

In 1929 “Hill Bark” was demolished and “Bidston Court” was dismantled and moved piece by piece to Frankby. The house was re-assembled using local architects and local builders and was ready for occupation by 1931. The house was given the name of the old house, “Hill Bark”



Sir Ernest died in 1960 and Hoylake UDC bought the property a year later. The house was opened as a home for the elderly, this continued until a few years ago when “Hill Bark” became an hotel and conference centre.

There is one further twist to the story of Hill Bark: In 1911 the Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany wanted to buy the house and have it shipped back to Germany, but Ledward refused to sell, he did, however, agree to sell the plans to the Prince.

The location of the German House was not known until Sir Ernest commissioned two agents to go to Germany to confirm its existence. The house, called “Cecilianhof” was built in Potsdam, and it was used for the signing of the Potsdam Agreement after the Second World War.


Cecilianhof in Potsdam

Additional sources:
The Wirral Peninsula, Norman Ellison 1955
The Wirral, Alan Brack 1980
The Wirral Journal Spring 1982
The Wirral Journal Autumn 1986
The Wirral Journal Spring 1990

Thanks for that uptoncx - you could become the resident deconfuser - I need one even if nobody else does.

I think you will find this link interesting it is a video of the workmen moving the original Bidston Court from Bidston brick by brick it,s only 58 seconds but so fascinating.http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//RTV/1930/01/01/BGT407150347/?s=Bidston+Court

you might need to copy and paste it

Sorry to ask this (as I'm sure it already has been!) but where's the original site of Bidston Court and is there any evidence still to be found - foundations etc?

Here it is on a 1909 map. Looking at the site on Live Search there seems to be a group of houses there now, so I don't think there'll be any remains.

Cheers, Chris.

just had a look on live search I think the terracing in front of the house as shown on your 1909 map could be here

I don't thnk there are any remenants of the big house left, I've never seen any, but I don't think they've been built over either. The house was within the grounds of Bidston Court Gardens and at the top of Colgo's live map, on the highest terrace, partially covered with trees now.
Bidston Court Lodge is still there, and the new buildings are north of that and outside of the grounds, (between the lodge and the big 'Alderley' house)
I do remember the ruins of one of one of the old outbuildings remained till the early 80's. Flush onto Upton Road, I presume it was a coach house.
Of the big houses on Chris map, I know 'Kingsmead' was knocked down in the 80's to make way for the 'Lawns' new build, and 'Intabene' is still there, having been split up into flats, and it's grounds used for a number of new buildings.

Nothing remains of the main house other than the terraced gardens in front of it, but there are foundations and the remains of tiled floors from outbuildings, possibly stables from the layout of the floor.


The building on Upton Road you are referring to I assune is the one that was half way down Ford Hill (Where there is a gap in the sandstone wall filled by iron railings today). In my day, this was a pig farm, I used to see it from the top deck of the 96 bus every day on the way home from school. I also watched them demolish it, so it must have been demolished by 1970.


I didn't know they had demolished 'Kingsmead', but I'm not surprised, even by the late 60s most of the grounds had been sold for new housing.

I think you're both right; the terracing is clear on the Live bird's eye view & if you move around the points of the compass there are low walls to be seen. Maybe the semi-circular feature was the base of a summerhouse. Do you know if it's possible to gain (legal) entry to the site? I'm pretty certain you'd find remains of formal gardens above the terrace. Shambo; I think you're right about the outbuilding probably being a coach house. Is it the building on Upton Rd. opposite the lodge?
Here's a picture of the drawing room.

Thats the one.



Pig farm eh? My only recollection is of it being a ruin in the 70's, and disappearing totally in the 80's.
As a kid, I used to live on Windermere Rd, at the bottom of Upton Rd, and Bidston Court was part of my extended playground. I always used to wonder why the gardens were there... They're open to the public as far as I know... I haven't been back there for over 20 years.

Here's an interesting link. Next time I'm up, I'll try to visit & look around.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=4666396

Yea theyre still open to the public now.
When at St Anselms we used to run around there at dinner time cross country club and some games afternoons. We used to call it the Yellow Brick Road as all the paths are yellow bricked.

The original wrought iron gates from Bidston Court were donated to Calderstones Park, Liverpool.

http://www.allertonoak.com/merseySights/SouthLiverpoolCP.html

To remove my confusion again, I am summarising the posts above on the Bidston Court Site:

Referring to chriskay's map:



Bidston Court Gardens is the original location of the house moved to Hill Bark. There were originally two entrances to the site, the main entrance was by the Gate House which is now a private residence, the original gates from here were donated to Calderstones Park in Liverpool.

The present entrance is through the gates which led to the stables and coach house. (There was a third entrance by way of the building on Upton Road, but this was by a steep, narrow path.)



The path from the gate can be seen to the right of the arch (which leads to the house). When the house was removed, the stables remained until the second world war, when they were destroyed by a bomb.



The foundations and floors of much of this block still remain.





There are no signs that there was ever a building at the site of the main building, most of the site is now covered with trees



The semi-circular wall seen on the aerial view isn't seen on chriskay's map (I've marked its location on the map) nor on a later 1917 map that I have, so it could well have been added as part of the landscapping of the site after removal of the house.



The buiding on Upton Road was obviosly originally built as part of the estate, as there is a path from it to the house marked on the map, but I think it is unlikely to be a second coach house.

As the site is on the escarpment, the grounds are steep, and the formal gardens are in terraces



In the picture above, the house was behind the line of trees.

Some good pictures there. Somebodys been doing some urban exploring haven they !

Thanks, uptoncx. I'm too old to be climbing walls or gates, but if access is easy, I'll definitely be having a look next time I come up.

Cheers, Chris.

excellent uptoncx thanks for Sharing

Thanks everyone - I'd always imagined that Bidston court was actually on Biddy hill but I know the place well, used to run past it all the time with school cross-country and it was a legendary hideout for purple aki!

Funny you should mention that; so did I.

Great pictures uptoncx.

Just found this pic when i entered Thermopylae Pass into google. I think this site is wrong over the dates though??

Francis Frith

Yes, it's surely much earlier. Not sure that Thermopylae ought to be called Upton either.

Why was the house moved in the first place as the location it was in was beautiful.

Fantastic pictures and research .

This house is right next to the old grounds to where Bidston Court use to be on Vyner Road South does anyone know if it could of possibly been a gatehouse for the old house.Can anyone tell me the age of the house ?First time I,ve uploaded so bear with me if the pictures don,t show straight away.

Yes, it is the lodge to Bidston Court, the section of map below (taken from chriskay's post further up the thread) shows the lodge with the main entrance and drive to Bidston Court passing it.

It,s a beautiful house with really interesting carvings on any idea when it was built.I went up there yesterday as it is 10 mins away from me it looks like no-one is living there and I noticed 2 big metal storage containers in the garden.Which made me think work might be starting on it .

I hope its being restored, and not being flattened!

yerr

yerr what?

yerr what?

Aren't they moving it to Frankby

now there's an idea...

Just to confirm that the grounds of Bidston Court on Vyner Road South were handed over to the council and they are freely open to the public. Until fairly recently you could drive in and park up, but they have now put a post in the way to stop cars.

We are staying in this place now, i will get some photos up.
The interiour is stunning