SHAME ON YOU, WIRRAL COUNCIL - Wirral-Wikiwirral

Well, today I had a nice little train ride to Stockport to visit the re-opened WW2 air raid shelter tunnels. Very interesting, in view of the fact that we've recently been discussing the Tranmere tunnels. The scanned info. sheets give a lot of information, but just to point up some of the differences between Tranmere & Stockport.
Overall, Stockport was not as big as Tranmere; about 1600 yards compared with 2200 yards at Tranmere. Also, they were not as deep (but at about 40 Ft., plenty enough to serve the purpose). The tunnels at Stockport are not brick lined & for the most part are not floored. The pictures show them pretty well. There were nowhere near as many bunks provided at Stockport, it was mostly seating & standing. The website is on one of the sheets. It's about 10 minutes walk from the railway station & less than 5 from the bus station. In the central area of the town, there are signposts to the tunnels. Although it was in theory a self-guided tour, in fact there was a guide giving a tour. The whole tour took about an hour, but that included taking pics.
I've left some of the pics. as links in case they need enlarging.

I enjoyed it, but kept wishing that the council could be persuaded to open Tranmere. I'm pretty sure there would be government/EU money available, so, SHAME ON YOU, WIRRAL COUNCIL. Get off your ar*ses & make an effort. The recent pics. show the tunnels to be in a not disastrous state & we'd love to see them opened like Stockport.

Attached picture Shelters1sm.jpg

Description: The entrance

Description: Plan of the tunnels

Description: Near the entrance. Some walling & sandstone flooring

Description: Typical tunnel

Description: Restored benches

Description: Some passages have been bricked up

Description: A narrow linking tunnel

Description: Must have been a door here

Description: First aid post

Description: Canteen

Originally Posted by chriskay

SHAME ON YOU, WIRRAL COUNCIL. Get off your ar*ses & make an effort. The recent pics. show the tunnels to be in a not disastrous state & we'd love to see them opened like Stockport.

Start a petition, Chris

More pics

Description: Toilets

Description: Anderson shelter

Description: Passage

Description: Anderson shelter description

Description: 100 people in each passage

Description: 14 & 15. Wartime posters

Description: Famous poster by Fougasse

Originally Posted by BMW Joe

Originally Posted by chriskay

SHAME ON YOU, WIRRAL COUNCIL. Get off your ar*ses & make an effort. The recent pics. show the tunnels to be in a not disastrous state & we'd love to see them opened like Stockport.

Start a petition, Chris

I'm not the one to start a petition, Joe; should be someone local. Is there any way to let the Council see this post?

Sod the petition, I say CHRIS for Prime Minister!!!!
Great pics there mate, puts our wet arsed council to shame, as well it should.

BBC story about "The Friends of Tranmere Tunnels"

Quote

Simon Petris has campaigned for the opening of the Tranmere deep tunnel air raid shelters in the Wirral that helped save lives during the Second World War. He is the secretary of The Friends of Tranmere Tunnels which aims to transform the tunnels into a heritage site.

The Tranmere Tunnels accommodated 6,000 people. Local miners drilled 150 feet a week and worked round the clock, removing 25,000 tonnes of sandstone. It took eight months to complete and by January 1942, the Tranmere air shelter was ready for occupation.

The tunnels had 125 miles of passage way. They were eight feet high and eight feet and six inches wide, but they were well equipped to make people as comfortable as possible. There was gas, electricity, running water and toilets. They also had canteens and even a library. Locals used go down the tunnels even when there wasn?t an air raid warning as they felt safe.

Raising awareness

The Friends of Tranmere Tunnels (FoTT) group began four years ago. I have an interest in local history and I just got chatting to some people one day who felt the same about the tunnels. There are about 20 members in the FoTT and we think it?s so important that we do not lose this part of our history through neglect.

There are other tunnels in the country that are open to visitors: Williamson?s Tunnels in Liverpool; The Grosvenor Caving Club in north Wales; and Stockport air-raid shelters which organise tours. These groups have supported us in our campaign, and I think the Tranmere Tunnels can become a tourist attraction too.

I?m keen to raise awareness about the tunnels as there are so many people who know nothing about them. I do talks whenever I can. I speak to people in history groups, rotary clubs, women?s guilds etc. Our campaign group also collects audio recordings of people who went through this dangerous time in our history to capture their memories of the tunnels.

Stumbling blocks

A view outside of the tunnelsWirral Council owns the tunnels and have said that they are unsafe and should remain sealed. We told them about the benefits of having the tunnels open for the community. I think the tunnels that are open around the country must have gone through and overcome similar problems of re-opening. So the council should be able to draw upon the experiences of others in order to get the Tranmere Tunnels open to the public.

We are passionate about the Tranmere Tunnels. We have contacted English Heritage to apply for listed status. So hopefully, getting this status would add weight to our campaign.

Tunnel vision

The next step for us is to gather support from local councillors. The council say we need to have a business plan and to do a feasibility study before they consider our proposal. This all takes money but through the support of local groups and people, we hope to win through in the end.

The war was a unique time we endured and I think it is important the role the tunnels played isn?t forgotten.

Good work and great pictures Chris, shows what can be achieved with a bit of effort and thought,instead of the brick it up and forget if approach.
All this sort of thing is part of our history and should be documented for the future.

Yeh great work there chris and thanks for sharing

appreciated.

good pics there bud

wow interesting

Yeah Robbo, if you pay your entrance fee you can UE it all you like!!
Takes the fun out of it tho mate!!

nice pics ther ene 1 ever seen a map or blueprints to this fantastic air raid shelter

Our Council are only interested in allowing old buildings to be burnt down or selling off land to property agencies.

lol or you blag your way in 2 take pics

well perhaps thay scard of taking the tourism away from liverpool...? ya right thay just dont give a toss

This 1 looks good

Attached picture 7803.jpg

chriskay well dun can u remember if the tunnels had diffrent levels in them and if we say u was on ground leval did thay go up or down ?

excellent thread, as said before maybe we should start a petition again !

Brilliant pics.

We went to these tunnels in the Summer. They were fascinating!

But I was taken with the fact of how good would the Wirral tunnels be if they were opened to the public as they are so much more extensive etc.
I talked to the guide at Stockport and she never knew that Wirral had any tunnels..she seemed surprised as she said she thought she knew of most of the tunnel sites in the country..but not Wirral??

I told her the little I knew about them saying how they were so large and well planned out and she agreed they would be very worthwhile opening up.

But as said..tell that to our council.

Ok money would have to be spent..but surely the cost would be met in time by the interest generated!
The guide at Stockport said that they had increasing numbers of visitors and held private tours at night for limited numbers to explore tunnels that hadnt been fully opened up yet. They also have on going visits from schools etc ...so they make revenue..other wise they wouldnt be open!

Such a crying shame..Liverpool has tunnels..other places have tunnels and our council seems to think that ours would not be worth the time effort and money.....!!

@vango; there's a plan of the tunnels & a description, via links, on the first post. Looking at the plan, these tunnels weren't built on a square grid pattern like Tranmere & Bidston. They are all on one level with no noticeable slope. If anyone organises a group visit, I'd come along; it's less than an hour by train for me.

Cheers, Chris.

Really nice photies Chris. The problem with our tunnels is the asbestos - it was almost certainly used at tranmere and probably used at bidston. Most tunnels that are open are either not lines, lined with brick or built before asbestos as used extensively.

Current thinking on asbestos is eading towards sealing it instead of trying to remove it, unfortunately if the linings on tunnels are sealed then moisture won't evaporate and the lining may drop off exposing unsealed asbestos etc. not suitable for public access. Asbestos removal doesn't come cheap.

The council may not be mentioning the asbestos because of the claims that may be made from workers and users of the tunnels, not to mention kids that played in them when they weren't adequately blocked off. This may be why the council is generally very quiet about anything to do with these tunnels.

The answer is to have friends of the tunnels, the Williamson group did it, why can't the Wirral?- preferably one group to cover both Tranmere and Bidston, this increases the chances of success. Simon Petris did try effectively as a pressure group, but I think you need to raise initial capital to advertise and premote the tunnels to increase the income to the levels needed.

The tunnels would be a very suitable memorial to remind of the horrors of war to families at home, not just the soldiers on the front line - I am sure a concertd attempt at this time whilst there are many people with living memory of the war(s)would support this. By the next generation it could be too late.

And sorry, no, I am not volounteering, I haven't got the time and I sincerely apologise to Simon Petris for never getting round to joing his group, I wish I had!

Actually, the asbestos, in the form of corrugated asbestos cement sheets which was used as roofing in places at Tranmere is not really a problem; just that the word asbestos sets off alarm bells. Asbestos cement sheeting is remarkably stable unless you start to cut it without precautions. I know that Simon Petris started (or was involved with) the Friends of Tranmere Tunnels, but I think the group faded away, which is a shame. (I'd be glad to be proved wrong). If I lived locally I'd certainly try to persuade the council to do something, but the fact that I'm not local works against me.

That would be great news Chris, I was on the understanding that an asbestos mix render was to be used in places, as this would be hand plastered it would be nowhere near as safe as sheeting. As it is probably white asbestos it is low-ish risk, but my experience of (pre-war) asbestos sheeting is that it does become powdery but this would just be a case of using a seal - if it is just sheeting.

I think it is time the profile is raised again, it would be interesting to see the financial accounts of other similar tunnel groups to asses and more importantly show the viability.

Both of the Friends of Tranmere tunnels sites have gone, I don't know if Simon left the area or just got fed up with getting nowhere.

Having got rid of the Historic Ships - that would have been part of what could have been a fantastic tour of the Wirral.

Sorry to throw a large spanner (Imperial - NOT metric!) in the works at this point, but I doubt very much indeed that asbestos compound type sheeting was ever used at Tranmere. Can't speak for Bidston as I only (very) briefly stuck my head in there many years ago and cannot remember the roofing.

The curved corrugated sheets at Tranmere were steel. This bold statement is made by my memory and photographs. Looking at the recent pictures, some look like new, some are 99% rust. All depended on who did the galvanising. I'm sure when fitting out the tunnels, they would use a material that would not shatter if a lump of rock, maybe loosened by "trimming" fell onto the "outside" of the sheets. Asbestos sheets have the tensile strength of soggy Weetabix ! There seemed to be quite a bit of overbreak in the driving of the tunnels ie. generous gap twixt rock and lining, be it the brick walls or "ceilings".

Can't vouch for ALL of Tranmere, but certainly the bits we roamed around all those years ago were metal sheeted, not compressed snuff !

The presence of asbestos is guaranteed to put the kiss of death on any proposed scheme. Wirral Borough Council's total rejection of the re-opening pivots largely on this wonderful, and VERY convenient mega-scare!

Maybe somewhere (Archive visit Chris !) there are buried away, the specification docs. issued to the council by the War Ministry ? It would NOT of course be in the Council's interest to produce these IF there is no asbestos sheets down there ! Maybe somethink to mull over ??

Ok, folks, I'm guilty of using second-hand info. I have no direct evidence of the use of corrugated asbestos, only what I'd heard.
diggingdeeper; can you say what your source is for the asbestos render? It may lead to further info.
Pinzgauer; you make a valid point about the unsuitability of asbestos sheeting (although it would be shear strength which was the critical factor). On my previous visits to the archives, it would appear thy haven't much on the tunnels, but it may just be a matter of asking the right questions. Perhaps someone local could go & have a nose around in the archives. I wonder if the War Ministry would have laid down a spec. or whether it would be done at a local level. Interesting that the Stockport tunnels don't seem to have been roofed at all, which makes me think there was no national standard.
On a completely different tack, I wonder if we could interest the Time Team in an exploration of both sets of tunnels? If so, what would be the best approach? They could use the experience of Stockport as a reference.

Cheers, Chris.

"A short section has been roofed as an experiment with asbestos to test its wearing capacity"

Quote of a quote ...

Page 25 of Birkenhead at War 1939-45 quoting "A newspaper of the time"

I cannot see a way that inflexible asbestos sheet could be mounted onto the roof without an undue amount of additional work (you would have to hold the roof up then finish building the side walls) and hence have always assumed it was a render they had tried as opposed to sheeting.

They would have no reason to replace steel sheets with asbestos sheets but if they wanted to try a render that's when they would swop to asbestos. As can be seen on the pictures, the steel sheets being flexible can be popped in and out.

All photo's and descriptions I have seen have shown/stated corrugated steel roof, the asbestos might even have been an infill.

I am not ruling out that the asbestos may be in sheets - just doesn't seem to make much sense if they are.

For those that haven't come across asbestos sheets, if you imagine a plasterboard panel but compressed to about 3mm thick but still have the strength to self support a 3 metre long panel, then you have the idea - unfortunately it is brittle - a normal kick of a football could shatter them. (sorry to all our imperial fiends out there, most members here are probably metric - spit)

Looking at the pictures of Bidston tunnels (which was started at least 6 months later than tranmere) I am more concerned about the ceilings there, was an experiment at tranmere using render successful and used there?

wooooowww cool

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

"A short section has been roofed as an experiment with asbestos to test its wearing capacity"

Quote of a quote ...

Page 25 of Birkenhead at War 1939-45 quoting "A newspaper of the time"

I cannot see a way that inflexible asbestos sheet could be mounted onto the roof without an undue amount of additional work (you would have to hold the roof up then finish building the side walls) and hence have always assumed it was a render they had tried as opposed to sheeting.

They would have no reason to replace steel sheets with asbestos sheets but if they wanted to try a render that's when they would swop to asbestos. As can be seen on the pictures, the steel sheets being flexible can be popped in and out.

All photo's and descriptions I have seen have shown/stated corrugated steel roof, the asbestos might even have been an infill.

I am not ruling out that the asbestos may be in sheets - just doesn't seem to make much sense if they are.

For those that haven't come across asbestos sheets, if you imagine a plasterboard panel but compressed to about 3mm thick but still have the strength to self support a 3 metre long panel, then you have the idea - unfortunately it is brittle - a normal kick of a football could shatter them. (sorry to all our imperial fiends out there, most members here are probably metric - spit)

Looking at the pictures of Bidston tunnels (which was started at least 6 months later than tranmere) I am more concerned about the ceilings there, was an experiment at tranmere using render successful and used there?

As far as I can tell from most of the walls and ceilings at bidston, most of it looks like it's direct chiseled to the rock and there seems to be little evidence of any form of smooth render. Surely if a render had been used it would be thick enough to remove any or even most evidence of chisel or tool marks on the walls and ceilings?

In fact the tunnels there remind me much more of the works underneath dover castle than anything else I've ever seen - and that's the older sections.

(had a private tour of those withe curator

)

Can't tell colours/textures very well on photos but this is one of the bidston pictures that led me to think that the roof had been rendered. The forground roof looks rendered, the further roof looks like full finished concrete/cement.

BTW I have no expertise in any of this, I am just passing some thoughts etc

Description: Bidston Tunnel

If it is render I can't imagine it being applied so roughly, or be shot through with what looks like iron oxide??

[Linked Image]

The roughness of it reminds me of the chiselled stuff I saw in Dover see.

To set the record straight, not rendered in Bidston, ALL chiselled, the bit in the pics is whitewashed/painted! Trust me, only ever seen steel sheeting in bidston!

Got it, my last piccie was a the start of a corrrugated steel section, they infilled/encapped the start of these the same as at tranmere.

I am still a bit curious about the brickwork going beyond the ceiling in the forground of the picture.

Thanks for input hoseman.

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

I am still a bit curious about the brickwork going beyond the ceiling in the forground of the picture.

That picture is interesting. Would be good to look at it full-size, as the point you make about the junction of the wall/roof is a valid one. I can see what Hoseman is saying about steel sheets & infill, but the roof in the foreground looks as if it's been rendered. If whoever took this pic. could post it full size, it would be interesting.

Cheers, Chris.

In side bidston maybe this might help you

Attached picture b hill 044_600x450.jpg

Thanks, Robbo, but it's that particular picture I wanted.

witch 1 i might have 1 similar to it

This is the original

The first 1 is better i hope this will help you

hows those too dude better 4 you bigger pics

Thanks, Robbo; the second one of those pics is the same as the earlier picture, the first is of a different location.
I can see now that what looked as if it might be render, was in fact just the white sandstone. It seems as though they took a lot of trouble cutting in the brickwork to the roof as well.
The first pic. shows that the concrete roof arch was constructed using timber formwork, not, as I had suspected, corrugated iron sheets backfilled. I guess they must have found some sandstone which was too soft or unstable; we know that these tunnels were never completed owing to the nature of the ground they encountered.

cool nice to help dude

Thanks Robbo - yes Chris, I'll go with that, some scouse brickies performing magic there, it really looked like it was undercut/overlapped. Also the concrete certainly looks like pure cement base and not asbestos.

I had seen the asbestos quote for Tranmere Tunnels elsewhere, but looks like it is only in a small section as the article said which is good news all round.

That sandstone must be very hard, looks like a similar finish to granite tunnels. Around me there is a lot of sandstone but it's more like a bag of wet flour!

So if we had a choice of which tunnel to open to the public first, which one would it be? I would probably vote for Tranmere, especially with the Cammel Lairds name being back in the horizon this could be a strong association to help promote and finance.

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

So if we had a choice of which tunnel to open to the public first, which one would it be? I would probably vote for Tranmere, especially with the Cammel Lairds name being back in the horizon this could be a strong association to help promote and finance.

Maybe not with new houses being built ontop of them?

Originally Posted by BMW Joe

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

So if we had a choice of which tunnel to open to the public first, which one would it be? I would probably vote for Tranmere, especially with the Cammel Lairds name being back in the horizon this could be a strong association to help promote and finance.

Maybe not with new houses being built ontop of them?

As I undrstood it, I thought there was more than one entrance to them?

I'd go with Tranmere Tunnels aswell personally, from the pictures we saw of them, they seem much more intact than the Bidston Tunnels, although I have no idea of how big they are in terms of scale by comparisson.

Originally Posted by BMW Joe

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper

So if we had a choice of which tunnel to open to the public first, which one would it be? I would probably vote for Tranmere, especially with the Cammel Lairds name being back in the horizon this could be a strong association to help promote and finance.

Maybe not with new houses being built ontop of them?

True it would be better to open bidston at the back entrance would be safer

This 1

Attached picture b hill 055_600x450.jpg

Originally Posted by Rhobit

As I undrstood it, I thought there was more than one entrance to them?

I'd go with Tranmere Tunnels aswell personally, from the pictures we saw of them, they seem much more intact than the Bidston Tunnels, although I have no idea of how big they are in terms of scale by comparisson.

Yes, there are 3 perfectly viable entrances to Tranmere tunnels. They are somewhat bigger than the Bidston ones; a total of 1.25 miles of tunnel with a capacity for over 6000. Condition-wise, I think there's not much to choose, since both have been extensively vandalised over the years.
The fact that housing is now built over the Tranmere tunnels hardly matters, since the tunnels are about 80 feet below. The tunnels were built under existing houses in the first place.
The Laird's connection might prove useful, if the current owners of Laird's were reminded how many of their workers took refuge there during the war.

Who's going to go & thump on some council desk???

Cheers, Chris.

Chris, i would rather just go thump the council!!!
That first pic is the back of my head! Some of the rooves in Bidston DID have backfilled corrugated roofs and even mesh with concrete!

Shhh hoseman or you'll start me off again.

There are bits of corrugated roof at Bidston but from what I have seen these are just to patch dodgy bits - unless they have fallen or been removed - at this point I will shut up before I upset Chris

Thats the bits i was on about mate! definatly no asbestos down there, unless its hiding!!! The most harmful thing in there that night was my arse, chips n steak pie for lunch im afraid!!!!
Air does get a bit thin tho, but not at a dangerous level. Dont worry, ive done my enclosed spaces courses!!

Thanks for those pics, diggingdeeper. It's clear that various techniques were used.

Cheers, Chris.

p.s. I'm not upset