Finally starting to get around to scanning some negs from the 80's.I'm having trouble uploading the images so have made a set in one of my flickr accounts. Sadly, the foundry is now long gone, another British Industry lost to the far east.If I have got any names wrong then I'm sorry as it's been nearly 30 years. Got loads more to scan (Yours will be in the next batch Phil ). Hope they bring back some memories. Just follow the link below
http://www.flickr.com/photos/birkenhead339/sets/72157626825840187/

Good pics Mike - & a good memory for names !
Looking forward to the next batch .
You in touch with anyone from back then ?

I'll checkout the pics later, love to see what it used to be like.

One thing I will say though is it's still here, I'm here right now as this is where I work
They're knocking one of the buildings down as I write this, the site has changed a lot over the 4 years I've been here.
They still refurbish the proppelers.

Fantastic - thanks for sharing

No mate, I bumped into Georgie Weeks jnr, Jackie Hill and Wagger at my Auntie Jackie's funeral a couple of years ago.All the SMM directors turned up as well. What made me laugh was that Stone Marine, as they are called now, have a web site and have been using one of my photographs for the past few years without my permission. I still have the negatives so I think I will drop them a line with regards breach of copyright haha . The photographs so far are from the book I had printed about SMM that won the Runner up prize in the Short article competition at the British Foundry Industry awards in the early 80's.
Used to see Jackie Hill a lot when he was on the Taxi's and I used to see Frankie Proctor in the Wallasey RNA club when I used to pop in for a drink on Monday nights but that was a few years ago

When I was a young'n, must have been aroung 81-82 I worked on the S.M.M. site. It was for the building firm that did the work to expand the pit to fit the prop in the last picture on the flikr page. While working on it we were told it was to create the largest prop in the world. Glad to see it came to fruition, even if it has been beaten since. It facinated me at the time to see how the props were made.

Added a few more to the original

I used to work on the furnaces in there as a sub contractor.
Always fascinated at the guys hand making the moulds and casting the props.
I also worked on the demolition machines when they pulled the place down. spent a fair bit of time on that site.
I remember one of the guys showing me the `mix` for the furnaces. It was to produce an alloy, not brass as some people think. There were copper water tanks and various different metals mixed in. Once, just after the first Iraq War, they had tea chests FULL of silver coloured coins about the size of a 10p. They were all mint and never issued....WITH SADDAMS FACE ON THEM!!!
I grabbed a handful, still got them somewhere. Wonder if worth anything?

Cameraman, great photo's. My great aunt worked at SMM in the late 40's as a metallurgist (spelling) and after she died a few years ago I called in and spoke with a Dr. Patience who is currently looking fo any old records of her working there and ther exact dates.
Cheers Chris.

I remember my parents (Dad I think) telling me that SMM was one of the loudest places in the world to work, somethng to do with hammering on castings (propellers)? Does that sound right?

I remember when the 1/2 pence went out of circulation. We got millions of pounds worth in and melted them down.The Iraq money was typical at SMM. Everytime a country had a political coup the coins ( That are made in the UK ) used to come in to be melted down. I remember when the CEDI pieces came in to be melted down. They were the same size, shape and weight as a 50p. Shed loads went missing and ended up in the fruit machines and ciggy machines of New Brighton. I remember the Police got involved in that one.

my grandad worked there for years, untill he passed away around 1981, was only 56.

Thats about right, the props used to ring like bells when the machine shop trimmed them with the chipping hammers. There were a hell of a lot of claims for vibratory white finger due to this as well. I used to stick my fingers in my ears when I walked past the sheds.Imagine hitting a bell about 6 times a second non stop. This only happened on the Manganese bronze and nickalium props. The secret stuff such as the submarine props we used to call clunk metal. When you hit them they used to sound like hitting lead. No ring at all. The alloy was a special blend that reduced cavitation and noise.

Amazing, yes somewhere in the photo gallery on here I put photos up of one of the pneumatic hammers used, the warning signs outside the building it was in (hearing protection should be worn) and the building being knocked down.

The hammer was the last thing to be removed as the building around it was demolished the huge machines they used couldn't pull it out the ground, they had to cut it up with oxy acetylene then dig 6 feet into the ground to remove the very heavy base.

I'll put some photos up of how it looks now for you.

Oh, they used to use a really old red truck to transport the propellers around the site but I haven't seen it for a while, do you remember that? I'll have to dig my photos out.

All such skilled stuff and so sad that we let it that skill come to nothing and all kinds of manufacturing go abroad. I cannot fathom how UK has lost so many industries - from Motors to this. All gone. And I see the USA doing the self-same thing. Pretty soon we won't be able to make anything at all for ourselves. What will happen when the nouveau-riche Asians need to find somewhere cheaper to manafacture stuff? They'll probably eventually come back to us because by then, we will probably be happy to work for peanuts!

_Ste_'s picures of the pneumatic hammer are here, and more pictures and information on SMM here.

The photographs in the link aren't the machine or trimming shops that caused all the noise. They are of the Blacksmiths as you can see the forge in the background. The hammer was used to bend the thicker mild steel rods into shape for the foundry for the upper parts of the mould ( you can see a mild steel frame work on one of my photographs). Most of the mild steel rods were bent using a block and sledgehammer and bruit force by the moulder and labourer which is one of the jobs I hated but some of the rods were about 3 inches diameter.
The chipping hammers that caused all the noise were about 24 inches long and hand held. They worked like a carpenters plane but the blade moved very fast and chipped the metal away, hence all the claims for white finger. I can still remember the smell of metal dust as I walked past the sheds.

Another 14 photographs added to the link, mostly showing castings taking place

Excellent pics and good topics afterwards, nice one crew.

Dose anyone know when they started making prop's in Birkenhead ?, and also where the old records and pictures from the works went after it closed there must have been endless paperwork and pictures taken over the years.

Not sure what year SMM came to Birkenhead but it was during the war after the London foundry was bombed,they brought their own workforce with them , some of whom were still there when I worked there in the early '80's. Cameraman will have more of an idea as he seems to have researched the company.
SMM as a company still exists so maybe the paperwork/pictures care archived somewhere ?

I wrote to The Manganese Bronze co and asked if they had any info, i was after good copy of pictures i had seen in an old magazine article on propellers, they replied pointing me in the direction of SMM, and guess what.....they told me to write to Manganese Bronze as that's what the company was called at the time of the pictures. That was about twenty odd years ago now though !.

I did however find out that one of the official photographers for the company in times past was someone called Elsam Mann and Cooper who where in Liverpool, but i never followed that up !.

Amazing to see how nonchalant they all are, standing (what looks like) just inches away from molten metal being poured!
Also I am curious to know, if you know, what was the success or failure rate for such casting jobs? I mean, did any ever go wrong, like maybe, cracks appearing during cooling / solidification, or anything like that? I am sure they had it all down to a pretty fine art by this time and probably got a pretty high yield, but any such failures would presumably have been financially, pretty damaging...

I worked for a small company who did apart from other things casting. (Nothing on the scale of SMM), it was all very relaxed, i can recall we only had one visit from a Health and Safty bloke who was pretty happy with our procedures and went off satisfied !.

However i do remember him saying that we where highly unlikley to see him again as he was up for retirement, he also said he was the only one left for the north of Englnad who coverd foundries and he wasn't being replaced !.

As can be seen in this pic SMM/manganese Bronze where well equipped in case of an accident !.

My Dad worked here for over 40 years from the 1960s until it's final (production) demise about 8 years ago. He'll love to see these pictures.

Casting failure was very rare. I do remember one when the mould blew due to side wall failure which caused 30+tonne of molten bronze to pour out into the pit. This was a bit hairy, a few pops and bangs and a lot of people running down the foundry, me included.The vent pipe that let any gas out dropped into it, and due to moisture content, shot off like a rocket through the foundry roof like a missile. It took months to clear the pit using electric arc lances to burn out the metal.
Another one, before my time, was told to me by another moulder, Peter Rawlinson who was from Aintree. He said a load of local Big Wigs, the mayor and lady mayoress and high ranking Naval officers were all sat down on tiered benches during a cast. The mould started leaking out big time and the lads started clearing off. The visitors just sat and watched until Peter ran over and said in his usual scouse humoured accent "YA BERRA F*******FF IF YA KNOW WHATS GOOD FOR YA. I think they got the message.
As for the history, The Manganese Bronze and Brass company started making props at this site in the early 1940's having moved up from London due to the Blitz. As Zigzagwanderer said, some of the lads came up with the firm, I think George Weeks snr was one of them. I have some historical records somewhere, will have to dig them out. The company started by producing copper nails for the sailing ships amongst other things in the 19th century. I will scan some more documents tomorrow

Founded 1881, just found this info on this link
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Manganese_Bronze_and_Brass_Co

Top postings keep 'em coming

Did your Auntie Jackie work there?

Yes, Jackie Woodfin, She was the bosses sec when I started my apprenticeship ( who says nepotism is dead )and went on to become management after I left. She sadly passed away after a long illness a few years ago

HI camermann, I WAS A SECURITY GUARD at stone i was there with BOB mackendry/JIM (carnt remember his last name) they where my bosses i was based in the gatehouse with the spiral staircase i used to do 7 till 7 days/nights i remember HEGGARTY with his ball room dancing i was there on nights when they had the big FIRE in a unit that was let as a paper mill and i was on nights the morning lady DI was killed i was on days when the biggest prop IN THE WORLD was loaded on to the MERSEY MAMMOTH floating crane i remember jackie who later died of cancer a nice lady. I remember mr wilson who owned the land and also appeldore ship builders in devon short fat guy who had a habit of turning up checking on security and his pain in the ar+e son who thought he owned S.S.M i have lots of memories and stories of S.S.M god rest the place if need any more info please feel free to ask ..

I'm sorry to hear she passed away. She might have even been my dad's secretary as I remember him mentioning someone called Jackie. I'll have to ask him. This would have been back in the 1980s.

IT was few years after S.S.M closed i think i remember DR PATIENCE the director the 200 TON SHOP which is still there MR SMITH i will try remember more.

My dad is John Smith. They 'let him go' just about 4 years before he was due to retire properly after about 45 years service. He may have some info to share about the history etc.

I think, at the time I started, she was Bill Teasdale's secretary and used to help Dougie Hey who was the personnel Manager. Think she took over personnel after Dougie left

hi ask your dad mr smith does he remember me im mike the security the fella with the classes send my regards thanks.

Hi Mike, I'll certainly ask him. What years were you there? At one point Dad used to drive a clapped out silver mini. You might remember that. It was always something clapped out he drove, apart from in 1979 when he proudly got his one (and only) company car, a T reg brown cortina!!

Hi Snorlax, just reading a letter I have from Bill Teasdale who was the manufacturing Director and his secretary's initials are BAB so Jackie could have been Johns.

How interesting.. will have a chat with Dad. I definitely remember him talking about someone called Jackie when I was younger as well as some of the others you have mentioned like Frank(?) Heggarty. There was also some lad he used to talk about who kept having kids.. like 7 or something!

HI, I remember the mini and the i think he had a red volkswagon with a black roof as well, has your dad still got his beard i remember his office was up stairs to the right as you looked at the office building i had some happy times at S.M.M .

Yes he still has the beard.. less hair.. more wrinkles.. still drives a clapped out car. He's 70 next month.

Frank was the patternmaker supervisor when I started and John Higgonson was the foundry supervisor with Alan Gee (Wagger) and Jackie (John) Hill his foreman. I left SMM in 86, they were making redundancies and all the good lads were being layed off. My name wasn't on the list but I volunteered to save one of the other lads jobs who had kids as I was young free and single at the time. My Auntie wasn't impressed haha. Went on to do better things

HI ,I remember BILL (carnt remember last name) who used to do the wages the workers where paid in wage packets and as i was security we had to lock the main gate and gate house doors till every one was paid then some one called SHAKESHAFT took over then the wages were paid into banks..

I think it's sad that all these engineering skills are being lost in this country. Do young men still make tools? We dug out my DH's tools from his apprenticeship. Awesome. Do teenagers learn these skills anymore?

DOES any of the lads remember the security guard who used to make the MODEL aeroplanes and cars and soldiers on nights and i used to leave them on the gatehouse window for the lads to see.I remember the lads in the finishing shop on nights with the loud banging with the air grinders used to keep me awake some times..

Seeing as Mike has mentioned planes, prior to moving here the Millwall factory was bombed nine times by the Luftwaffe.
Good thread boys, keep it up.

NEVER BEEN TO MILLWALL IN MY LIFE! .

Just found loads more stuff from the early 20th century and a link to a newsreel same company but the Charlton factory
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=46616

And it looked like the Germans finally finished what the luftwaffe couldn't do to them in the war
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1390795/Christopher-Bookers-Notebook.html

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Even though the image is poor, I recognise most of them. My Auntie is in the left group, last one one the right. The middle group are mostly moulders, George Weeks jnr, Herbert Higgins, John Bonner and the supervisor John Higginson

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Health and Safety is out the window on this one. Shots of the moulders casting the Queen Mary's Prop in the 30's in the London foundry

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This shot shows a double cast. The Birkenhead foundry built the moulds in pits. The original way was to build them on the shop floor with a brick outer casing then pack them out with sand. Again, very little regard for health and safety. Photo circa 1935

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Copy of a Foundry journal cutting showing one of the boring machines which, at the time, were the largest in the world

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And another shot of one of the boring machines

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Craven Boss cutting machine, used to cut the riser head off the casting at Birkenhead, 1940's

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Another shot of the Craven showing the face of the prop machined down

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Another foundry journal cutting about the Queen Mary Props from the 1930's shot at the London Foundry

This is amazing, thanks for sharing cameraman.

When i was security and on nights i had to check all the machines/equipment was not left on to make sure no fire hazards it was a fantastic place to work in i was never bored always something new..

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SMM newsletter from Oct 85 telling us all about new orders for Birkenhead, within 6 months many of the Moulders were being made redundant

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The following 6 images are the Company brochure produced in the 80's showing various images of the Birkenhead factory including shots of the castings and an aerial view of the factory and land. It's amazing what junk I keep but I try to collect every item I have had photo's published in.

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This page shows the largest prop in the world at the time

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Moulder John (CRACKER) Bonner painted his hard hat red, wonder what team he supported
This shot was a three ladle cast for a 100 tonne prop

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Aerial view of the plant, oh how it's changed

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Moulders John Bonner and Brian Dunn and Crane driver Alan Harwood, who was also one of the shop stewards, have a bit of down time playing football outside the workshops that housed the electricians and brickies

One for you Zigzagwanderer taken on one of the Christmas dues at the Manganese Bronze Club in Wallasey, Alan Harwood has obviously reached the point of no return haha. I thought I had one of you working mate but I have been struggling to find the negative. Got more from the party somewhere plus a group shot taken in the restroom. It's gonna take me a while as I must have over 200,000 + images from the 70's to 2003 when I went digital.


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I was about 21/22 when that was taken , still got the hair but put a bit of weight on since .
Sadly , Alan Harwood died about 12 or 13 years ago .

I had heard a rumour, such a shame as he was a really nice bloke, I heard Benny Rigby had passed away as well, a customer told me by the Mona castle pub last year when I was fixing her washing machine. A lot of the crane drivers died young due to the bloody fumes up in the rafters. After seeing the lads at Jackies funeral it made me realise how bloody old I was getting seeing as the last time I saw them all I was 20

I had a look around the place some time ago with a view to renting the place. I wasn't able to discuss this at the time but the deal fell through and I only recently remembered this thread.

Hopefully this link works. Its the snaps i took on our initial visit. Not great but you can see how it is today. I will when I get time change the link to indiviual photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brocksuk/sets/72157627075439602/

If anyone has any pics of Ken Evans at MB would be chuffed to see it. He's still going strong incidentally.

The big crane gantry at SMM is being demolished at the moment, here are quite a few pictures.

more

more

last few

Thanks DD , good pics .

God I've missed a lot from 2 days ago when I last whent there!
Stes told me about this,mad how there knocking it down ey dd?

what a shame it brings back memories of when i was a security guard walking around the back of the offices then down past the prop store on 12 hour shifts nights/days.And working there for a few years i got to every prop in the store {which ship/destination} and every inch of the site. At least the 200 ton shop is still standing, i can tell you some stories! happy memories!.

Bet they got a good price on all that, great work dd not much left noe is there. when's the rest goin??

A few bob's worth of metal there. Rumour has it that this was payment for demolishing another building.

The rest of that gantry is probably down by now.

I videod one section coming down on my camera but it did a write error, I should have brought a video camera with me, quite disappointed.

This shot kinda reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy

Reminds me of the 80's when Thatcher was putting British industry to the torch.

A few pictures of the shower and locker rooms, these have recently been stripped out for other uses.

My locker (1st photo) was right to the end, turn right and 3rd on the left side (Phil, thinks yours was opposite mine) photo's are of the foundry changing rooms.I remember Herbert Higgins chasing use around the showers naked hahaha that's another story. Thanks for the memories Diggingdeeper.

Its good to have picture memories up, I can't believe I only took the four pictures, batteries must have flat in my camera that day, they were taken Aug 2011.

Ste might have some more.

Here are two short videos of the gantry remains being chomped up by the big scissors ..

[youtube]8RslEg_FF70[/youtube]

[youtube]SYZdoutQnk8[/youtube]

Well remembered & your lucky Herbie never caught you ......

Very true mate, he was the first black man I ever met. A true gentleman and a funny bloke. Used to love they way he laughed and his stories he used to tell with his Jamaican accent. Wonder if he's still alive. He had something to do with a club in Toxteth ( was it the Gladray or something )and was a prison visitor as well if I recall correctly. Always wore a trilby on his way home and a back support in work.

Hi Cameraman. Sadly Herbie died recently, there was a big piece in the Echo reporting his funeral. I can still here his laugh now, especially when he was winding up Harry Bell.

If you,ve got one of Phil working it would be worth a fortune!

Hi, I worked at SMM from 1977-98. I remember going to the first aid shop when I was an apprentice, I had a large splinter down my nail. It was run by an old retired gentleman we called 'Nurse Harry' and I nearly went through the roof when he put a hot poltice on it. I never went back again & can remember hiding under my bench in the Pattern Shop when he came looking for me the next day.

Here's a link to the British Pathe news with a short film from the Charlton works.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/propellor-foundry

Gutted to hear about Herbie, what a cracking bloke who was well loved by all. Often thought about what he was up to when I was driving around Toxteth as a service engineer. Think I know who you are Raven61 seeing as you started in 77 because Neil Benson and I started our apprenticeships in 81, Neil under Frank H in the Patternshop and me under John H in the foundry.
Regards
Mike

I assume this is the Echo article - sounds like the sad loss of a great guy

CLICKY

(glad to see he got his MBE)

Thankyou for this , sad news , but he made his mark .

Thanks Diggingdeeper. It was an Honour and a privilege to work with Herbert, never realised the court was named after him. Will have to pop round next time I'm in the area. RIP old friend, as Phil said, You made your mark.

One of you working will be worth even more ......

I take it that's KMc that is ribbing you Phil. If you look on the third photo on page one link that's him with his back to you, probably standing there with a brew in his hand while the moulders do all the work haha

I know one thing for certain Mike, no one will have one of you working there. I can still picture you now leaning on the striking board with you arms folded.

Always had a camera in my hand mate or in the foreign office making bronze 18 and 21 keys, liverpool and everton plaques and bronze bells for all the pubs on the Wirral

I can maybe remember you 'watching' old Jackie Hill in the foreign office.
I was speaking to someone I work with now who knows you from Candy [P.A.] & he said all you used to do was sit around all day polishing your boots. No change there then.
Regarding the posts on this thread about old photos of SMM, when the old office block was knocked down there was a few large boxes of photos in there but I can't remember if they were destroyed or moved to the pre-fab building at the back of the office by the car park. There was all sorts of stuff stored in there. I,ve got a few old photos of what looks like the foundry at the Charlton works & a photo of the Queen Mary & the QE 1 in war colours leaving Southampton docks. I also have about a half dozen glass negatives from what looks like Charlton. The person who used to take all the photos later on at SMM was Joe Clayton, I don't know if he's still around but he was a member of one of the local photography clubs.

OMG, I've just talked to the missus and she knows you.(That's if your a Civil Servant) Small world mate. I used to polish my parade boots in the laboratory before Battle of Atlantic or Remembrance Parade only so tell Phil A to do one
When I was in SMM a few months back fixing the Dishwasher, I was talking to Don Quilliam and a couple of the old guard who work in the office still. I think everything vanished. I gave them the flickr account details so they could view the old negs I still have when we worked there

Hi Mike, yes P.A. told me your wife works there.

Just wanted to reiterate what "Cameraman" said about Herbie Higgins ....I also had the privilege to have worked with him when I was an apprentice....I spent 6-months down in the Foundry and always remember as I walked past the Core-oven first thing in the morning its door would be open...and looking inside it was coal-black and sooty ....some of the old-hands would warm themselves in front of it ....Herbert's favourite past-time would be to allow me to walk half-way past the oven door and his voice would then boom out ....he would make me jump out of my skin ....he would be standing deep inside the oven and all you could see was that huge grin and white teeth ....he blended into the background so well you just could not see him....he never allowed anyone to bully me or come down too hard on me ...he was a gentle man but at one point in his career he had been a sparring partner to the boxer Joe Bygraves....you knew he could handle himself if the reason arose ....Merseyside has lost a true gentleman.

Thanks for all the photos. My dad (Bob Garrett) worked there for over 25 yrs late 40s to Late 70s he was a(the) slinger.

I wonder if he knows my brother? My brother worked there for many years too, in fact he had a nasty accident while working there and lost most of the toes on one foot when a propeller fell and sliced through his steel toe capped boot!

With regards to it being the "loudest place in the world" to work in ....it was actually the "loudest place in the UK" ....although I have to say that quite a few of the workforce suffered permanent hearing loss .....when they stepped outside of the fettling shop ...they spent most of the time shouting at each other...mainly because very few of them had very little else pushed into their ears other than the basic ear plugs ....very few wore the heavy duty full ear covering .....although over the years it became mandatory

RE Herbie Higgins, he's just had a road named after him in Toxteth.
http://www.liverpoolexpress.co.uk/road-named-local-hero/

Herbie Higgins .....I have only good memories of the man and I'm so glad that he touched my life ....the naming of the road is a nice tribute to him .....long be he remembered.

Any of the older men remember charlie Irving?

Mate of mine...Bernie Kane...worked with Joe Clayton...is looking for photos or info on him. Trying to get in touch.

Ask here ;

The Bronze