Anyone have a link/info showing course of the River Fender.Any help most appreciated.

This one does not show all the route of the Fender but it does show the general relationship with the Birket and other landmarks

Many thanks for your kindness and helpful info

I cannot put a date to the map I supplied - quite old I think. No doubt someone else will add comment

Snod

1954. It's here, together with the associated report:-

The Great Culvert

Very kind of you, the area I'm interested in is what's reported as the Fender in the Landican area. Suggestions, maps, links anyone?

The Fender stops at Prenton and joins the Prenton Brook,
see link,
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/674979

Interesting. I came across a reference to a Landican Bridge as crossing the Fender, thoughts?

Landican Bridge ? I can only guess at the (pre-motorway) concrete bridge over the Fender. Built in the '30's. Maybe about 100yds west of the railway bridge over Woodchurch Road. All blatted in the '70's when they built the A552/M53 intersection.

My playground when I was nought but a lad ! ha.ha.

It is a very small. old, stone bridge over the Fender apparently

Mmmm... Stumped on the one. Pass............

Try and get your hands on a copy of the 'Waterside Wirral' book, produced by the Mersey Basin Trust. It's full of maps, photos, and info etc., on Wirral's waterways. Ask at your local library if you can't find one in the shops. Seem to think it use to sell for something like a fiver.

Anyway, failing that, see if the Greg Dawson books say anthing about it. His book on Arrowe might be a good starting point.

Thanks for the recommend, there are a few of us interested in this.

Appreciate the recommendation

Thanks, geekus; just ordered one second hand from Amazon. £5 including delivery. More available.

No worries mate!

It's a nice little book with quite a bit on local wildlife & nature, as well as the history of the rivers & streams.

Forgot to mention but, if you look on ebay at the moment, there's quite a few old lantern slide photographs for sale, many of which are of old Wirral and North Wales. One of these in particular claims to be of an old bridge crossing in Wirral, circ.1890-1900.

Well worth a look even if you're not interested in buying. Just type in 'lantern slides' on ebay search. There's quite a few different sellers but most of the Wirral ones I saw were on pages 10 and 11.

Enjoy!

Thanks for that info, interesting photo, but the bridge size is larger/different to the one I'm looking for, probably younger too.

Sorry about that, but can't suggest much else other than checking the Greg Dawson books. He's the local expert on all things relating to Thingwall & Landican. If there was a 'Landican Bridge' anywhere in the area I'm sure he'd have written about it.

Sounds to me like it's an ancient stone bridge that you're after, in which case, it may have been part of a pack-horse route. There used to be a few on the Wirral, including the one at Storeton known as Roman Road.

No worries

Shall try and find a copy og the book you mentioned.

Thanks for your help.

19th century map showing some bridges on the main Fender which runs to the Ford brook, through to Landican

Fascinating maps, thanks for sharing, do you have at a larger resolution, particularly towards Storeton area?

There was a stone bridge across the fender which was reputedly early-medieval in date, including a sculpted image. Now destroyed.

Destroyed?! As in making way for M53 or some other vandalism? Any ideas on location?

The Main Fender on the map seems to me to be the Birket nowadays

There was some engineering of those rivers during the mid/late 19th Century?

Towards Storeton

Many thanks for your kindness in sharing that

Have it the river in question is marked on the map you kindly shared, not as the Fender, but the Ford Brook, and it is this which crosses the course of Landican Lane. Was the name of that river/stream changed sometime later? Does anyone have any recollection/info/maps on the Ford Brook?

The Main Fender is indeed now known as the Birket and the Ford Brook is now the River Fender, it would be interesting to find out when these name changes took place, and who's responsibility is it to change the name of a river.

...you writing a bloomin' book on this thing Erainn, or what?!!!

Love to know what's so significant about the bridge. Is it part of a bigger study you're doing, or 'ave you just been watching too much TimeTeam?!!!

its s compulsive disorder me thinks..plus an interest in Wirral's lesser known heritage.

It's unusal for topographic/river names to change over time, clearly the Ford Brook is explained, and no doubt indicates former routes crossing the Wirral. But why and when the name change would be helpful. Thoughts, sources?

Well if you find the hidden treasure Erainn let us all know! Think you owe bert1 a pint at least for posting all them maps.

Great stuff bert, but where's the 'X' that marks the spot?!!

English Place-name Society?

The X may be to far back Geekus, is this what Deano was referring to, saxon bridge.

Definitely, we'll split it three ways, and shall throw in a bag of crisps too

Carrying on with the Saxon theme, a painting by Wirral artist David Hillhouse,
Saxon Bridge, Landican.

...not sure about the reference bert, but I think I've seen something similar written about carved stones at Landican in one of the 'Wirral Journal' articles. Also, Peter France has written stuff on that sort of thing in the papers.

Hope your good at battling trolls bert!!! Erainn wants us on the treasure hunt.

possible helpful sites about some streams
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/292744/Saughall_Massie_bridge.html#

Post292744

http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/misc/water/tracearrowebrook1.htm

Cheers Derek, Interested in finding out when and why the name changes to the rivers, brooks, etc.

have sent an email to Defra asking if they had any maps
Any suggestions of where else to get info

by the way where did you find the maps you put up and what date are they about
map Meols 1829?

Maps, 19th century.

Do you have any map location for this structure? Also, is this the stone bridge someone else mentioned had been destroyed? Was it removed by the M53??

Map of Storeton later than 1838, since it shows the Storeton Tramway.

so
the Main fender became the Birket
the Ford Brooke became the Fender which appears to have begun in Storeton
the bridge may have been on a road going from Storeton to Landican

Great work Getting closer now, thanks for the info/research, next time I'm in town, and if there's any good pubs left, we must raise a glass.

I've seen this map before and something always intrigued me. It shows a railway from Bidston Hill down to a quay on Wallasey Pool, but I've never seen any other reference to it before. Does anyone have any info on this?

That is the Flaybrick Quarry Tramway, which was the first railway on the Wirral as far as I can determine. Flaybrick Quarry is now mostly Flaybrick Cemetery.

...although refered to as a railway on maps, it was probably more like a wagonway. I would imagine it took advantage of the natural gradient to get stone from Flaybrick to Wallasey Pool, and horse power to get the wagons back up again.

Same arrangement at Storeton quarries.

Completely by chance I've just come across this letter in Wirral Notes and Queries dated January 1892. It was in response to someone querying the origin of the name Birkenhead. If the writer is correct then it looks like the names were changed during an ordinance survey in the 1840s.

I'm sure this is on the forum somewhere, just in case anyone has missed it.
http://friendsofstoretonwoods.org.uk/storeton_tramway.htm

Excellent discovery, thanks for sharing that, seems the names waterways of the Wirral have been subject to administrative inteference. Presumably Ordinance Survey would have records of such a decision?

Interesting to see the association of the name Fender with 'British' origins as opposed to later Norse/Saxon beginnings. That is given some suppport by local Celtic place-names such as Landican of course.

Sorry to digress folks, but a supplementary....Great also to see that curious quote, attributed to locals at Meols/Moreton, in particular "Well they calls it..." (emphasis added) Wonder is that a fairly accurate rendering of the local accent of the time? If so it sounds very 'countryfied', not out of place in Somerset :)) Then the phrase "ought" more Lancashire than Wurzel.

Good find Nightwalker, now, are the name changes down to some form of official committee or the responsibility of a inadequate cartographer.

Great point

Thanks nightwalker
I googled Wirral Notes and Queries and found this site that I didn't know about
http://books.google.com/books an attempt to digitise loads of books and put online

On the matter of the possible Celtic origins of the name Fender, please note that the Welsh and Cornish terms, for what is described as a 'managed spring' are respectively, ffynnon and fenten. Not too far away from 'Fen-der'. Could it be its name derived from some original spring?

...you saying it wasn't called Fender on account of all the bits of old bangers & bikes dumped down there????

haha you got it

...glad to know one of us has got a brain!

or as Oliver Hardy put it 'two minds without a single thought' :))

That's where I got it from. You can download the complete volumes 1&2 of the Notes and Queries (1892/3). Full of fascinating stuff, particularly the complete Bidston parish registers with notes about the various Bidston families. Highly recommended.

Just to confuse you all even more concerning the origins of 'Fender', you might be interested to know that the term also refers to a type of levee or embankment constructed to protect against flooding.

Any stream which becomes managed as part of a drainage system and has raised banks added to it can, therefore, be termed a fender. Sometimes local history books talk about 'The Main Fender' in Wirral, presumably to distinguish it from lesser ones.

I'd hazard a guess that any name changes in the river system came about following the enclosure of Wallasey Pool.

...forgot to add that I dug out a copy of Greg Dawson's book on Thingwall earlier today. As I suspected, he does briefly mention an ancient bridge at Landican, saying that if you look at local field-names you'll notice '...a Carr Bridge Meadow now a rugby Pitch by the Woodchurch flyover'.

He goes on to say that '...there must have been an old bridge across the marsh and River Fender, where the ancient footpath to Oxton is. Hence the field name'.

So there you go Erainn. That'll be a pint, crisps, and a packet of peanuts you owe us now!!!

Bit off the mark there. This bridge is located where the underpass now linka Woodchurch High School through to the playing fields that connect to Woodchurch Road opposite Durley Drive. This was part of Landican township, but is swamped by the woodchurch estate now.

Fair enough mate!

Can't say I know the area that well myself. I was just reporting back on what Greg Dawson's book says.

Thanks for your feedback anyway.

peanuts, is it? hahaha

It's good and helpful infor to be sure, yet it's not in the area my researches are heading..that said next time you fancy a brown over bitter and a pickled egg I'll be happy to oblige

That being so how does that tie-in with the re-naming of
the Main fender becoming the Birket,and the Ford Brook renamed as the Fender, as shown by the 19thC map posted previously. What were the dates of the Wallasey Pool construction pre-or ante the date of the Map?

Wallasey Pool is a natural inlet, the docks etc, were started around the 1820s.
The old Woodchurch secondary school was in Carr Bridge rd, behind the schools playing fields lay the Fender, to cross the Fender there was a bridge, the bridge was in direct line with the Railway bridge (arched brick construction) which led to a rough lane, the lane went up towards Noctorum/Oxton. Though that particular bridge wasn't ancient, i always understood it to be called Carr bridge, and i would have thought bridges get replaced at the same site as the years go by, the lane would have been a very old track. The bridge by the rugby ground/Woodchurch rd prior to to M53 being built was and probably still is, Prenton Bridge.

You know what they say, Erainn - "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"!!! Personally, I'm more of a gerkin kind of guy!

...nice work bert. Some interesting comments there. We'll get to the bottom of this mystery eventually.

It would be great if one of our technical members could overlay a drawing of all the streams & rivers on to a map of the Wirral, with a brief history alongside each stretch showing the name changes over the years. Would this be possible?

Gherkins eh..now I know you are from the Wirral

Wonderful idea, is there anyone with the time, data and gubbins (another Wirral word????) to get that together?

I remember that bridge, Bert, as will Pinzgauer & doubtless several others. Here's a map showing it.
(Little red 'x')

Be really helpful if you could you please post a high-res copy of that map, showing the Townfield Lane area and post on the Flat Lanes thread.

Spot on Chris and thanks.

To throw something else in to the mix, keeping in line with name changes, I'm wondering if Fender was once known as Fenden,not much of a change, Fen, meaning, low land covered in water, wholly or partly, peaty alkaline soil, and Den, meaning in old English, Valley. Doesn't help with the river name changes i know.

It's a good shout, we have so far three possible origins.

Yes please. To show junction with Bidston Road.

What about, Have you seen the kids? "they are in the Fen" where? der = Fender

Saxon with a scouse accent, brilliant.

haha good one

Done.

while we're talking about bridges, does anyone know where this one was? (it's a pic on ebay)

I've looked at those slides on ebay quite a lot in the last few months. The one you show is part of a larger collection but I'm not convinced all of them are actually of Wirral as the seller states.

They came from a collection originally used by a local photographic society and date back to the early 1900's, but I can tell you for a fact that quite a few of the slides were wrongly re-labelled. Most of the good ones have sold now. I imagine that the main reason the bridge slide hasn't sold yet is simply because nobody knows for sure where it's supposed to be. It might be Wirral, but I don't recognise it myself.

Answers on a postcard please...

The only place that bridge could be and I'm going off memory, its a big maybe, the bridge inside Arrowe Park that went across the Arrowe brook, it was at the end of the lane if you go in the park at the bottom of Arrowebrook Rd.

Here's another shot in the dark.
How about some where over the Prenton Brook around Barnston. Wherever it is the trees will have grown abit, and the course of the brook now hidden by trees.
Where A551 goes down into valley. That was the brook wasn't it ?

Could it be Brotherton Park?

[quote=geekus]Try and get your hands on a copy of the 'Waterside Wirral' book, produced by the Mersey Basin Trust. It's full of maps, photos, and info etc., on Wirral's waterways. Ask at your local library if you can't find one in the shops. Seem to think it use to sell for something like a fiver.

Just borrowed it from the library.

Regarding "Saxon Bridge"This painting wa sold in 2009 and I reckon the paint was not even dry.I was leaning on the same flotsam debri that is in the painting, yesterday. Took some cracking pictures which I am stumped if I can put up. Will pass them on to Bandi or get a PC lesson off him If I cant do it myself., in truth it looks a mess with one entrance completely blocked and in need of some TLC.Also more like 18/19th century than Saxon. Promise details location ect, when I have put pictures up. Having a heavy weekend (no complaints)

That would be great to see, what's the location of that bridge? Hope your w/end gets easier.

Photo's taken and provided by Paranoidballoon

After several emails sent to various agencies - received this reply.
Any suggestions on what info to ask for?


1st [email protected]
For copies of the maps requested, I suggest that you contact Ordnance Survey (OS) – Great Britain's national mapping agency. If OS is unable to help you directly, it may be able to suggest another organisation that can. You can email OS directly at: [email protected].

You may also wish to contact the Environment Agency (EA) to see if it can provide you with the maps requested as it has responsibility for flood risk and managing water resources. You can email the EA directly at: [email protected].

2nd [email protected] <[email protected]>

Dear Sir or Madam.

Thank you for your enquiry regarding river maps for the Wirral.

In order for us to assist you with your request, we require further information. Please respond to this email, quoting enquiry reference number 110214/HB06, with the following information:

* Specific details of the type of data/detail you require
* Specific details of the area you require maps for
* Is the information required for a particular time period?
* Do you require flood history/ flood risk/ flood zone information?
* Any additional information you believe may be useful so that we can clarify your enquiry.

Once we have received the above information, we will forward the details of your enquiry to the relevant person/team.

We look forward to receiving your response. If you have any further queries please contact us and we will be happy to help.

Kind regards
Hannah Buswell

Customer Service Advisor
Environment Agency
National Customer Contact Centre
08708 506 506

Just out of interest on this, an old name for the river was the River Ayne, possibly of Welsh etymology, but not entirely certain. Fenders in the Wirral context are actually the name of the banks that are built up alongside the river.

Hope this of use for someone!


Also, I didn't realise people were after old maps, hadn't read the thread fully. If people let me know what map they want and from when, I've got digital copies of the whole country. Within reason though guys!

Erainn
From Asda Woodchurch road go up Landican Lane/Road take the first puplic footpath on your left signed Storton. The path will widen just before you get to the undepass of the Bidston line railway that is the bridge.carry on under the M53 alongside the motorway down Roman road over Prenton golf club and you will be at the Saddle Club (mentioned in The Doomday Book)Expect to get very muddy

The Saddle Club was in Domesday? Was it still Grab a Granny in the 11th Century?

would like to see maps of wirral both old and latest showing where all the rivers start join and finish.Would like to see if their courses have between altered over the years (as someone suggested earlier possibly they could be overlayed by someone)

I've got to incorporate some of the older maps into ArcGIS for another project, so I'll post a low-res copy here some time next week. If anyone has ARCViewer, they can have the dataset.

Hi, thanks for the directions, on Google Maps that area around The Saddle Club looks fairly built-up, and look as I may I'm finding it difficult to see a river/stream course. The images posted of that bridge seem to suggest a fairly rural setting, are we sure that bridge is located as directed? Thanks again.

That's interesting, if the idea of 'Fender' meaning some form of embankment is the case, would be helpful to note other instances of streams rivers on the Wirral bearing the same name. The question would be asked, why if that was the case only this river was named after such river management, while other watercourses received specific names to do with location, such as Arrow Brook, and I gather Ford Brook, which I understand was a pre-existing name for that part of the now 'Fender' that passed towards Storeton way. Older maps, pre-industrial development may shed some light.

Grateful appreciation to Paranoidballoon & Bert for arranging those splendid images

Superb work Derek.Suppose as a first step it may help to know what's the earliest maps they may have, also if available a base map showing original/current water courses in the Wirral. Other ideas folks?

As I have previously suggested, Fender does indeed relate to a type of levee or embankment.

Most watercourses probably get their names from their most significant physical characteristic. The Fender is heavily managed for flood control purposes and has been for centuries. Even before the enclosure of Wallasey Pool in the early 19th century & the construction of the Birkenhead Docks, archive records make reference to the name Fender.

In fact, the word Fender occurs in some local records as both a noun & a verb. People are known to have risked fines for not adequately 'fendering' the section of Fender passing through their land.

Other lesser streams & brooks would, probably, only have been refered to by this name if they were managed in a similar manner.

Be grateful to note any historical (pre 19th Century) sources you may have relating to the management of that river, interesting to identify how long it has been controlled and also why it, of all such waterways on the Wirral required such particular attention. As discussed on a previous post even earlier maps may help, particularly in confirming questions regarding the association of the name 'Fender' with this river.

FOr a history of the river name (and indeed all rivers in Cheshire), refer to Dodgeson's Placenames of Cheshire Part I - Page 23.

If I read para's directions correctly, the bridge is on the Prenton Brook, before you get to the railway. After you go under the railway & motorway, the path turns right, follows the motorway for a bit, then ends up at Little Storeton. If you then turn left & follow Roman Rd. over the golf course you end up at the Saddle club, where the red x is on the modern map. If I'm wrong, I hope para will correct me. I've added a close-up from the 1910 O.S. map.

These photos are two separate bridges. I'm going to be walking across from Storeton through to Landican next week to get some more photos, if you want to come along, I'll show you some bits and pieces. I've been researching Early Medieval boundaries in this area for 2 years and the river courses forms a large part of this.

You have got to be joking £100 says your wrong

If you go on my original directions (google earth )follow Landican lane just before you get to the rail underpass as stated marks the spot.you can see in a clearing a small stream meandering to the location.I would not of said anything untill I had at least visited the mark.Which I did in practice as I recognised the painting location. The pics put up by spider are photos of my photos which took a bit of the quality away.Print the painting and the lanscape pic put them side by side.The trees the hill the gate th posts all line up.The painting was done in 2008 and sld in 2009 I was sitting on the fallen tree in the painting on Friday.My offer still stands £100 It is on Landican Lane as stated in painting

Just to the left of Staley Wood under the M53 and then the railway bridge on Landican Lane. You could kick a ball under the railway bridge while standing on said Saxon Bridge. I think as already stated 18/19TH century. I have only called it the saxon bridge because the artist did and the thread was the Fender it is on the Prenton Brook.In truth the "Saxon" bridge might not exist you cant take a painting as a true record Was it the Tudors? who painted a hump and club foot on king Johns portrait. only found when x rayed shift that red x a couple of inches to the left and down an inch

Crossed wires here....I'm on about the two maps above. The top one with the red x is of the bridge near Prenton (where there was a anglo-saxon water mill) and the other is of the bridge that crosses from Storeton to Landican.

Sorry Would like to do that walk with you if poss. Chris got it spot on.What do you think? about not trusting an artist

Deano, the red x is where the saddle club is, not the bridge. On both maps, the bridge shown near the railway & Stanley wood.
Incidentally there are several bridges like the one in the photo on Dartmoor, where they are called Clapper Bridges.

Well I suppose they all have a bit of 'artistic licence' to make things up, so better to rely on photos or actually going along! My diary is rammed for now, but possibly 3rd or 4th March is when I'll be going. Tend to park down little Landican Lane in Storeton and walk across from there. You're welcome to join me. I'll post nearer the time to confirm dates.

I went through the farm the other day three bullocks stood in my path in about eighteen inches of slurry .I was hoping to take a photo of the little quarry along the path but could not get through on the public footpath.There is a stream at the back of the old rocks club, prenton golf range "any idea what it might be called?"

According to "Waterside Wirral" it's Prenton Dell Brook

Not that old, but this might be of interest. (Hope it's legible!)

Many thanks for that Interesting to see the relatively small expenditure on bridge repair etc, in the very regions being considered, namely Storeton, Prenton and Ford; through which this stream of mystery passes. As you rightly note the data is of course 19th Century, we look forward to any other material of previous centuries that testify to watercourse management as being the souce of the name 'Fender'.

He Erainn. What is your interest in the river?

A curiosity in terms of its name origin, as you may know topographical features carry names usually of great antiquity, often used by language historians to identify distant ethnological groups. For example the River Tyne, though in an area of considerable Angle/Friesian/Danish settlement bears an earlier 'British' ancestry, there are many more such examples.

In light of that general pattern it's interesting to note the interpretation that the Fender owes its name to water course management. It may not be related, but one sugestion for the surname of Fender has it that it's an "English" medieval name, is occupational and derives from the French "defendre" and means a "town guard", one who defends the city walls, or who was the local champion at arms. As I say it may be unrelated however it's interesting to se a connection between the claims that 'fender' was a defensive river embankment and a medieval term for a defensive watchman. If there is a connection, does this suggest the Fender was either named/renamed, at a time when the Wirral was under local Norman control? Should that be the case, I would be very surprised, as already noted, rivers tend to cling tenaciously to their ancient names. The puzzle continues....

...perfectly plausible, but not your average kind of Wikiwirral request. All sounds a bit academical to me.

Suggest you try and contact the English Place-name Society (Nottingham University) I'm sure they would have up-to-date info on the earliest known use of the Fender name on Wirral. Also suggest you test your theory by looking for other examples of the Fender name outside of Wirral and see if they are also associated with "defences" in one way or another.

I can only confirm that the Fender name on Wirral certainly existed in the 18th century. If the river was renamed at any particular period in time, I would suggest it was in response to coastal erosion and the constant problems faced by North Wirral from the ever increasing threats of flooding. If you look at the history of Meols and work out roughly when the original port (?) was probably lost to rising sea levels etc., you could reasonably argue a late Medieval date for the river defences becoming more established???

What makes this forum shine is the pleasure of reading the far from average contributions, information and support of so many people, including of course your very good self

As to the topic in hand, can you share any sources/references relating to the Fender river dating from pre-Industrial development, that would be interesting to see.

Note the comments on coastal erosion, however not sure of such marine processes, long shore drift being a prime factor, as operating prior to the silting up of the Dee, and thus which specific areas be prone to either erosion and or flooding. Some thoughts surface, is the almost central location of the Fender, isolated somewhat from the coast, and its relatively diminished dimensions, being more of a stream for a considerable length of its course. Difficult to imagine it as being anything significantly larger in width, depth or flow, although rivers over time do of course change. That said it's hard to reason why such defensive attention would be invested on just one river for the purpose of flood prevention (to the theoretical extent of it being named after such measures) while other rivers strems in the area, presumably did not receive such protection (or if they did, curiously retained their original names) which begs the queston of course, why would the Fender be treated so differently and renamed?

Treat this as partly an "aside" but when I was nought but a lad and living not far from the Woodchurch Rd. railway bridge, the Fender was my playground - along with rest of the gang. Stirring the grey matter in the cranium made me recall most of the length of it. My "territory" was bounded by the bridge mentioned earlier carrying the Landican Lane footpath over the Fender (adjacent to the rail bridge) and up to Upton Station area.

In all that length. I can't recall any great fall at all. No weirs, rapids etc. Just a slow, gentle flow. The only exception was when we made a dam across the stream with clay and anything to hand. Then we would let it back up as much as possible. The dambusters game then ensued !! That was the only time I ever saw fast moving water in the Fender.

Soooooo, can one assume then that the Fender Valley could have flooded on occasions a long time ago ? ie. before coastal protection works of any sort on the N.Wirral coast. What would have stopped a high spring tide with a good blow behind it from backing up inland for some distance ? Just a thought.

The weakest coastal point on the Wirral was always the stretch between Leasowe & Meols. The land around this area (particularly Moreton; Leasowe; and Bidston) is below sea level. There are plenty of documented accounts of coastal erosion in the area and local inhabitants continually expressed concerns about flooding.

Before the enclosure of Wallasey Pool, this low lying area of North Wirral would have been under threat of flooding from both the Irish Sea and the tidal creek of the Wallasey Pool. I'm guessing but I would have thought that the original course of the Birket/Fender would have connected with Wallasey Pool.

There's another thread on the history forum concerning The Great Culvert. I haven't looked at this in any great detail before, but am sure some of the information you are after may be included on those postings.

If you are interested in this from an academic perspective, I would definitely recommend that you contact the English Place-name Society. Also, the most recent archaeological study of the area was 'Meols - The Archaeology of the North Wirral Coast' published in 2007. There may be something in there of use.

Most of us here on Wiki are mere armchair historians but, a little local knowledge does go a long, long way.

Thanks for your thoughts on that, shall certainly not dismiss other avenues of enquiry, yet local knowledge is invaluable, as indicated by recent posts. No doubt the Wirral suffered flooding in some parts, yet the questions remain as to any definitive linkage of the name origins of the Fender with defensive banks.

The brass/steel/wooden thing that stopped the hot coals from falling out onto the lino/carpet was the fender, 'when I were a lad'. That's defensive!

Perhaps Erainn, the answer lies in your own question about the precise location of the Fender (as we know it today).

Prior to the 19th century, places like Upton & Bidston were far more important than they are today. You only have to consider the signifance of the Overchurch place-name to get an insight into the fact that this was an ancient settlement overlooking an area of water. These important settlements are located in lowland Wirral and any watercourses in this area would have been specifically managed in a way to protect valuable farmland from flooding. Other areas of Wirral above sea level would not have required the same emphasis on such flood defenses.

Regardless of any historical evidence, you need to look specifically at where the name Fender occurs; look at the relative sea levels for those areas; and then attempt to match them up with any written references in support of your theory.

There are definitive references to the local use of words like 'fender' & 'fendering' as a protective measure but you need to consider the physical evidence as well as the linguistics. Otherwise your theory about a Norman influence may not stand up to scrutiny.

Also defensive is the American use of fender for what we call the bumper of a car.

Very true, I'd forgotten that!

...just to add that, for anyone seriously interested you might want to look up another study done a few years ago by Lancaster University, on 'The Wetlands of Merseyside'. Seem to think there's a fairly hefty chapter on the Wirral waterways in there. Can't say I've checked myself but it might be available to view somewhere on the internet.

The oldest detailed map you'll find featuring North Wirral is the 1665 Kingston Estate Map. I know it shows the Bidston Marshes & Wallasey Pool in detail but I'm not so sure about the Birket or Fender.

For sure, we had one of those too

Well not so much a theory which I am possessive about, more a speculation really. That denudation of areas of the Wirral occured is not doubted, what remains a tantalizing puzzle is the name itself, along with thus far a lack of historical documentation, of any great age, to verify that the Fender name was used for the river prior to the 19th Century, Personally I consider the possible Welsh/British/Brythonic connection more alluring, than the possibility of Norman/Medieval beginnings. As you will know there are a few Celtic survivors written still into the land of the Wirral and who knows maybe, just maybe Fender could be a derived variant, albeit in English of such a name. After all nearby Landican itself is a candidate for a (pre-Saxon/Viking) British place name.

Many thanks for the help on those, shall try and see if copies are viewable

Referring back to Pinz's thoughts and memories, I can as a child remember flooding and a fast flowing Fender, obviously after heavy rainfall, anyone who tried to play football or rugby on the bottom pitches at Woodchurch school or the community center will testify to that, knee deep in mud springs to mind. As the coastal defences where well in place by then, that flooding was caused by the water coming from up high, Noctorum, Oxton, etc. All that is not getting the baby washed.
Back to the Main Fender/Birket, I've always assumed it was a natural water course which led to the River Fender/ Ford Brook, or should that be the Fjord Brook. If the name Fender was used for a defensive barrier and not as a natural river name, am i being silly thinking its being suggested it was dug out by some medieval navvies. If so, when the break through came about and connection to the Birket, the whole stretch adopted the name Birket. As for the Ford Brook being changed to The River Fender, is the river named after the valley it sits in or is the valley named after the river that flows through it?

found this on googlebooks using fender as search word
It appears that the word fender is used quite a bit for raised banks of rivers
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bk...onepage&q=river%20fender&f=false

Interesting to note that information. Is there evidence of such constructions along the course of the River Fender? Moreover is a date known for such banks?

With you on those questions, it is, to my albeit limited knowledge, unusual for a river to be named at some medieval/post-medieval or even later period, and then after an artificial construction. More so when considering that other nearby rivers, equally prone to flood, retained an original name unconnected with river management. As to naming, my understanding is a valley takes its name from the river, hence Wye Valley etc

This has been a fascinating and informative thread. My interest is in the Birket/Fender (I don’t know the Ford/Fender area well enough to comment. I've done a bit of reading up and would like to throw in my two penn’orth.

From what I’ve read here and found in old books I’ve come round to the idea that the name Fender was descriptive of its purpose rather than a river name, i.e. that it was an ancient sea defence and outfall (see the posts by geekus) based on a stream which conveniently emptied into Wallasey Pool. In his book ‘A History of Wirral’ Stephen Roberts states “The river was named Birket after Birkenhead by the Ordnance Survey in the 19th century. Its course has been altered by man, but the strange way in which it runs parallel to the north coast, rather than emptying into the Irish Sea, is thought to be natural and a result of the sand-dune barrier”. I have been unable to find any old maps with it being called the River Fender (17th and 18th century maps seem to show rivers without naming them). The only time Fender is shown, is on the early 19th century map provided by bertione when it is called ‘The Main Fender’. Again, could this be descriptive – if it was a river name, why ‘Main’ when at that time there was no other River Fender on the Wirral?

If Roberts is right and the Ordnance Survey named the river The Birket after Birkenhead (incidentally the river is variously called Birkett, Birken and Birkin in subsequent documents), the questions are when? and why? The earliest reference I can find was written in 1838: “From the confined nature of the Hundred of Wirral there is only one stream of any importance, and that is very small; it has however obtained the name of the Birkin; it rises at Newton Carr, and runs along Bidston Marsh, to which it forms a drain falling into Wallasey Pool.” (A Flora of Liverpool, by T.B. Hall).

Shortly before he wrote this, there had been a major development – the building of the Wallasey Embankment which started in 1829, “to prevent the low-lying lands of Meols, Moreton, Leasowe, Bidston and Overchurch from inundation by the sea in consequence of the continual erosion of the sand dunes and the injury likely to arise therefrom to the Port of Liverpool” (Rise and Progress of Wallasey). It could be that from this date the Main Fender was no longer required for its defensive purposes and its name became irrelevant and inappropriate. After perhaps many centuries as a fender, it then reverted to being a rather insignificant river that had no name and Ordnance Survey created one.

I have not been able to find any specific references to ‘our’ Fender prior to the 19th century. However, along with many other duties, the Wallasey Improvement Act of 1845 gave responsibility to the Commissioners for main drainage. Two of the drains were fixed as “one of which to follow the ancient fence dividing the said tract called Wallasey Pasture from the Wallasey Leasowe; and one running in a southwardly direction to the ancient fender or watercourse running from Newton Carr towards Wallasey”. Note the ‘ancient’, and ‘fender’ spelt without a proper name capital letter.

That there had been problems with flooding and coastal erosion in this area is not in doubt. In a report made by William Chapman in 1813 he states that the first embankment (or ‘slope wall’) had been built in 1794 and this had needed replacing two or three times, each time further inland. An interesting comment in his report which might be relevant was “The winds and tides in October last year [1812], with only a 16-ft tide, tore up the last slope wall, constructed to defend the shore, and not only prostrated that work but advanced upon the land from ten to twelve yards for an extent of nearly 2,000 yards. This overflow, had it not been for the short period at which the tide continued at its height, would have perfectly inundated the low grounds. As it was, considerable damage was occasioned, and the water on the fall of the tide passed off through the sluices into Wallasey Pool”. The last sentence is particularly interesting as it seems to indicate that a water management or control scheme was in place.

Another interesting comment is contained in a letter from Sir Edward Cust (who lived in Leasowe Castle and must have been affected by flooding) to the Mayor of Liverpool in 1828. The letter was written to try to get the Liverpool Corporation interested in building an embankment at Leasowe on the basis that floodwaters were carrying silt into the Mersey via Wallasey Pool which could have a detrimental effect on the shipping channels in the Mersey which Liverpool depended on for its existence. He talks about “…the common danger…from the great dip of the land towards ‘The Fender’ [the apostrophes are his] which would convey any irruption of waters into the Mersey”.

It could be that the position of the Main Fender, running parallel to the coast and feeding into Wallasey Pool, had been used from early times as a defence against flooding and perhaps as part of an early land reclamation scheme (when did Overchurch stop being ‘The Church on the Shore’?) . Later, as the natural defences - the sandhills - became more eroded and flooding more regular, the fender was gradually strengthened and upgraded to initially prevent the spread of flooding and then to channel the water to Wallasey Pool via Warrington’s Bridge where it is known that a system of sluices had been in place since about 1738.

A lot of this is, of course, conjecture and hopefully other older resources will come to light. Still, it’s been an interesting exercise to keep the old grey cells of an armchair historian working!

An excellent post Nightwalker and like all the posts in this thread, very informative and plausible, my thoughts now go to the present day River Fender (Ford Brook), dare we suggest this River was named after an ancient embankment or purley coincidental. In fact, we still don't know why the name changed in the first place, more research i fear.

That's excellent information and illuminating insights offered.

Well for sure that's an option, there are equally tempting possible origins, meanwhile if defensive river banks are the source of the name, is there evidence to be found for such structures along the course of the river? Also do we know any documentation, historical or archeological that testifies to when such structures were raised?

Floodgates are clearly shown on the 1665 map, located at the upper reaches of Wallasey Pool (roughly in the area of Reeds Bridge/Leasowe Common). They are specifically labelled as 'Floodgates'.

A number of other structures are also visible crossing the watercourse at regular intervals between Leasowe and Moreton but these are not labelled.

The map is generally accepted as dating from 1665 but some copies bare a cartouche with the date 1656.

Apart from more obvious coast-based defences, no indication of embankments, or similar noted by that map along the course of the river itself, more inland?

...I only have a very poor quality photocopy of the Wallasey & Leasowe parts of the estate map. Can't see any indication of embankments but there are one or two fairly large ditches - one of which is labelled 'Moore Ditch' and is shown located directly between what is now Leasowe Castle and the township of Moreton. One of the gate-like structures shown across the watercourse is indicated just before this ditch. I wonder if the name Moore Ditch indicates that this was Moreton's ditch?

A large part of Bidston is shown enclosed by walls. It's common knowledge, of course, that Bidston had an ancient deer park.

The ancient fence mentioned by nightwalker may possibly have been a feature of the Wallasey Race Course which existed in the 18th Century and which stretched between Wallasey Village & Leasowe. This fence is clearly shown on a later map of Wallasey from 1735.

I do, however, recall seeing indications of an 'ancient' embankment around the Bidston end of Wallasey Pool, shown on some of the early plans for the enclosure of the Pool. I can't recall off the top of my head exactly which plans they are but, if I remember I'll let you all know another time.

just registered/logged on haven't worked out how to use the site yet. I am doing some local history with children. Do you have anything on The Mount big house which I understand stood at the top of the hill on Mount Road and/or can you tell me what was on the corner plot of Hamilton Road before Mount Primary was built in the early 1950'x Any help would be well received,

..'s excellent web-site of old Wallasey includes many interesting old photographs of the area. Just noticed one particular one of Leasowe (taken from the top of Leasowe Lighthouse) which shows a property named Bankfield House. It's only a stone's throw from the Birket, so I can't help but wonder if the house was named after an earlier field named the 'Bank Field'? In which case, this may provide some of the evidence you're looking for concerning flood defences.

May be worth checking tithe maps... looks like it has always been called Bankfield House (map of 1874)

Some excellent work being done on this ladies and gentlemen thank you,I've just been catching up,I do remember the "Fender" from the railway bridge,Woodchurch rd to Upton when I was a lad it was a natural watercourse,with natural banks, it was then about three feet from the water to the top of the bank with the water about 6" in summer,it varied from about 4ft to 10ft wide,apart from further towards Upton by the railway footbridge it was higher due to a hillock and had running water even in a hot summer,I can remember in the seventies I think ,they used one of those drag line cranes and deepened and widened it out of all recognition, not sure if they carried on all the way,as that time I was elsewhere and was just visiting.

Well thus far what we seem to be confirming is that, not unaturally, on more exposed coastal areas of the Wirral, there is some documented 19th Century evidence of sea/flood defence, with earlier maps, again focused on similar locations. We are still however, on the basis of such observation not able to agree that the River Fender derives its name from flood prevention constructions (so-named fenders) as map/archeological evidence for such defences along the course of the river, seem so far not forthcoming. What defensive measures that are noted appear cnfined for the most part to the 19th Century and restricted to immediate coastal zones of obvious risk. I am not sure we can extrapolate from such scant offerings a convincing conclusion that the river was so named, of course more ancient maps may yet prove illuminating on the subject.

...thus far what you seem to be confirming for me Erainn, is a bit more than just a passing interest in this topic!! It's becoming more and more academically specific by the day.

Personally I'm very impressed with the level of interest that's already been expressed in these postings, and particularly the efforts made by some individuals putting up maps, etc. I thought this was just an informal history forum - not an Oxbridge entry exam!

The Cheshire Tithes map show it marked as the Fender by Ford Bridge Upton,by Upton railway station,1836-51 tithe map most of the marked drains going into the Fender and along the Birket appear not to have changed ,the only changes I can see is where it meets the M53 and of course on the modern map the widening and deepening.

Exactly my recollection of the Fender. Can not recall if there was some sort of bridge over it where Townfield Lane passed under the railway heading for Woodchurch. Always seemed to be a natural water course. Could you be talking about two separate entites which happen have the same name ?

if there was an ingress of sea water and a wash off of of animal and human waste spoiling the drinking water. Would it not make sence to build banks ect to stop the spoil rather than the flood.A flowing stream of fresh water would be an asset if the salt water table and flood was into the fender valley.

Excellent point, nickynocky.

Maybe any future studies into the archaeology of settlement in Wirral should pay greater attention to the availability of fresh water.

Totally agree the contributions and exchanges of information have been wonderful, it is an interesting topic and clearly one that poses more questions than answers. For example, does anyone know of any documents or maps that show (along the inland course of the river) flood embankments prior to the 19th Century? Or again why would just one of Wirral's rivers be named after a flood prevention construction, when no doubt other rivers were equally prone to flooding? It does not make sense, more so when the virtual majority of rivers and streams across Britain were named at some ancient time and retained those titles, despite later settlements by different groups, be they Saxon, Scandinavian. Anyone with some interest and knwoeldge of Wirral's history knows that despite heavy settlements by such peoples earlier place-names survive, such as Wallasey, Liscard, and perhaps significant to this discussion, Landican. In considering such factors it seems odd that a key river of the penninsular would be named at such a late stage, either 17th Century or even later to coincide with flood defences on the coast.

There is agreeement on the fact Wirral suffered flooding, concurrence too that the more exposed coastal region Meols, etc had flood/river defences built. Yet such information itself does not form convincing evidence that the Fender was named after river management construction, it merly identifies 19th Century (or slightly earlier) engineering to limit flooding in a specific area, away from the inland source and course of the river.

It may well have been eminently sensible to do so, but the key points here are:

Where is the physical evidence for such constructions?

Have such constructions been examined to determine a date?

Are they visible still? Along the inland course of the river?

Is there any written record, map or otheriwise that can show when such defences were built?

I tend to agree with the observations made by fellow contributors, in that the Fender always seemed to be a natural flowing stream more than anything. I do not recall from my own childhood playing along riverside embankments.

Referring back to Banksfield or Banksfield House taking its name from a fender or the main Fender, i would be of the opinion its name derives from the Wallasey embankment (Leasowe to Meols) Though not sure when Banksfield first appeared on a map. The first recorded work on a coatal embankment i have found so far is dated 1794 and is made from sand, clay and peat, further work was carried out in 1829 and called the old embankment and again in 1894 called the new embankment,as recently as 1973 more work was carried out and finished in 1981, which we have today.
Initially the first embankment 1794 was put in place because of the fear The Irish sea could cut its way through to Wallasey pool.

I have noted reading through many accounts, the fear of flooding from Wallasey pool was a problem, the main risk was from the erosion from the Irish sea.
On reading many accounts, repeatedly the word embankment is used for sea defences and no where have i came across fender being used in that context.
As previously mentioned, it does seem unusual to have a river with no name, I'm beginning to wonder did the Main Fender and the Birket have a defined connection point before The Embankment at and Wallasey pool dock system was constructed, before that, wouldn't it be one big tidal pool. Below tithe map 1836/51 showing Embankment.

Bert, that's very useful and helpful map, as you raise there is some uncertainty as to the nature of either the Birket or th Fender at the point of confluence, and more tellingly at a point of possible marsh tidal area. A brackish pool springs to mind, with any streams/rivers emptying into such an area, difficult to see how anyone looking at such a scene, held back by defensive embankments, would then go on to name the entire length of the inland river after such defences.

So we know the "Fender" is up to Woodchurch rd and past that to Pensby Prenton brook,could it be that's where the flooding ended, it is a valley, the railway line hides that bit, if all that area flooded and ran into as it still does the Moss,then why wouldn't locals think of the river courses as Fender,if you think about it,you go up to Upton on one side and up to Bidston/Ford on the other from where Upton station is,all we see is a built up area and maps the may or may not be accurate ,with books that may or may not have been written at the time,this is getting deep better stop.

Thinking again about it you don't put up a barrier where you don't think you need one,the whole area around Moreton was low lying,Morton and Lingum,town or hill in the marsh?, I think we need a map of ground and water levels, if whole area was marsh and a drainage channel from that way and from Pensby met in an area of marsh with other channels the would "Fender" cover these channels,to me it appears they were draining the whole area for a long long time,I know their's a reference that German prisoner's of war in WWI were camped at Bidston draining that area.

To add a bit more,had a look at the Google map,terrain and the M53 goes through a light green low level narrow area from Upton to Woodchurch rd Upton it does go wider as it gets closer to the coast,does anybody have any terrain maps?

...understand what you're getting at davew3, and it's right what you say about the German P.O.W's in the First World War. That gets mentioned in quite a few local history books - including 'Auld-Lang-Syne'.

I think what Erainn is specifically interested in is trying to find out how far back the Fender name goes, because it may have had an earlier name (possibly a British/Celtic one) before it became 'fendered', or managed in the way it has been in the last few centuries.

Just to refer back to an earlier contribution from nightwalker in which he gave us a quote saying that the Birket was always known to locals as the Fender - this is also confirmed elsewhere. The letter written by Sir Edward Cust to the Liverpool authorities expressing his concerns over the growing threat of flooding was sent in 1828, and in this letter he specifically refers to the waters being carried into 'The Fender'. This date of 1828 quite obviously pre-dates the building of both the Leasowe Embankment and the enclosure of Wallasey Pool for dock construction. So, even though this date in itself is not particularly early, it is early enough to rule out the idea that it got its name specifically because of 19th century developments.

What Erainn wants to know is if the modern day Fender in central Wirral also had this name in earler times because, bearing in mind that both these watercourses rise from different sources, wouldn't you expect The Fender which flows from Landican to have had a name that better reflected its origins?

I understand Geekus, but Cust says The Fender ,I wonder if he was using the words,Ie it had been "fendered" so he was stating "The Fender" the fendered part was working but they were still getting flooding and he was still worried,remember Liverpool town council owned both sides of Wallasey pool,I think the last part to be "fendered" was from the Moss to Upton Ford Bridge and the name stuck,the straight bits even in the 1835 Tithes suggest the low lying areas were getting worked on as well as getting drained and the "fendered" main channels were getting wide enough to be called rivers as the land use changed.

These may help (with full acknowledgement to Stephen J. Roberts - A History of Wirral).

And one of Wallasey showing it surrounded by marshlands.

Thanks mate,ask and ye shall recieve.

No problem - but it's down to you to interpret them because they mean nothing to me!

The map below is 1792, land lost to the sea, I've been trying to imagine the course of the Main Fender, in my mind, if it was a fender (sea defence) it would have been breached in places, not only that, would the said defences taken the correct course, I could be totally wrong, thoughts on a postcard.

...just to clarify one small point davew3, the Liverpool Authorities did not own any of the land around North Wirral until it acquired Wallasey Pool in 1829/30. Even then, it only bought the land to prevent the original Birkenhead dock scheme from going ahead and threatening it's monopoly as a port.

Most of the lowlying land in North Wirral was owned by the Lords of Bidston Manor. Warrington's Bridge at the upper reaches of Wallasey Pool was just one of the local attempts at flood control instigated by these landowners back in the 1730's.

There are records that show tenant farmers were obliged by their landlords to maintain their sections of The Fender or risk fines for failing to do so. The very construction of Warrington's Bridge itself was a condition of tenancy imposed upon a Mr.George Warrington who wanted to farm the land in that area.

Bert.

If you can find a copy of Canon Hume's book on Ancient Meols, there's a Victorian map in the front which is a composite of those above. It shows the relative positions of the watercourses to the flood areas and lands lost to the sea.

Sorry, but I don't have a copy of the book myself. It's a very old book, but most reference libraries should have it. Just be warned, not all copies have the map because they sometimes fall out from the front or get nicked.

That's a map I've not seen before, bertione. What does the writing say on the marshlands - can't quite read it?

It looks increasingly that the aforementioned 'Fender' was more of a coastal defensive measure as opposed to raised defences along the course of a river. That being so we are again challenged to understand or accept why a river would be named after a coastal protection construction, that was raised at some late date, centuries after the river was probably accorded an original name.

On the subject of maps, would it not be reasonable to expect such flood prevention structures to be marked? Are there existing, maps showing such constructions marked as Fender?

Sorry Nightwalker couldn't make it out myself, even with a good zoom.

Geekus, what do you recall from the books Map.

Geekus, is this the map 1656 you mentioned earlier in the thread.
Red dot nothing to do with me.

Bert's map is a from a copy of a Plan of the Wallasey Leasowes (Shewing the lands under the level drawn for Mr Chapman Sept, 1813).

The bit you can't read says....

'This part coloured green lies below high water mark of Wallasey (Leasowe?)and contains about (1400?) Cheshire Acres'.

Yes bert, the second map you show is part of a larger estate map by Thomas Taylor.

Originally refered to as being a survey of Bidston for Lord John Kingston of Rockingham. Haven't seen it for a long time, is it on the internet?

I disagree with part of what you say Erainn about The Fender being purely a coastal defence. Cust's property (which was by far the most important building along the coast) was situated in front of The Fender (i.e - between The Fender & the Sea). Also, before the construction of Leasowe Road the only dry road connecting Wallasey Village with Leasowe and Meols was Green Lane. This ancient road, often refered to as 'Old Road' on early maps was also in front of The Fender.

The sand dunes were the main defence along the coast. So, wouldn't you think that the fendering of the inland watercourses was more likely to be connected with preventing flooding from Wallasey Pool?

A full copy of "Ancient Meols" is on Google Books. Have had a quick browse and it looks very interesting.

Sod it! It looks like the map geekus refers to hasn't been unfolded during the scanning.

I'm pretty sure they've got it at the Earlston Rd Reference Library if you get the chance to look. They also have a very impressive collection of large scale coastal maps in the Map Draws there.

If anyone's interested in the 1735 plan of Wallasey showing the racecourse, it's in vol.2 of Wirral Notes & Queries.

Just the part i posted, from the Archaeological report, Aug 2002 by Dr Mark Adams, also found,

Well that may well be so, and it is not disputed that coastal defences existed at exposed locations next to the sea, at what date they were first constructed is another matter, but we can presume it would be centuries after Wiral's streams and rivers were originally named. As noted previously such names tend to spindown unchanged through the ages,and survive the language of successive peoplesbe they Saxon or Scandinavian. It is therefore difficult to associate the naming ofRiver Fender with sea defences. Moreover streams/rivers tend be named from spring along the water course, not from an area of salt marsh, dunes and partially protected by a defensive construction (as seems to have applied to that area of the coast). Then we have the river itself inland, minus protective embankments along its course, plus what of the areas other waterways, why would they not be named after such a construction? The whole explantion asks more questions than offering plausible answers

The maps seem to show they were draining the marsh for agriculture for a long while the drains feed into the main drains and I think they straightened up and widened and deepened the feeder Brooks (fendered) out of recognition they were just main land drains to the moss,the bit from Fornel bridge towards West Kirby/Meols is straight,did they have problems with high tides,heavy rain so could they get a back flow via Wallasey pool as that's what a marsh is for a sponge,if they had fendered it to the pool then that would be magnified but then they had mills down by the pool?.

I think that the Birket was named,when they built the Great culvert, it was diverted through it to Woodside?, the Fender it just stuck.

Ok beat me up.

the Fender and the Arrowebrooke have both flooded fairly recently
1 Arrowebrooke 2008 (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/misc/water/tracearrowebrook1.htm)



2 Kimprii has told me of the fender flooding as far as the main road thru Ford Estate in the 70s (think he can get hold of a pic)
Date Flow
13/09/1973 9.44
16/06/1974 12.97
21/11/1974 5.54
26/09/1976 21.63
14/06/1977 4.74
04/06/1978 6.36
27/12/1978 4.6
05/12/1979 4.12
02/06/1981 4.4
measured at Ford Lane station

Fender Birket

I, for one, wouldn't dream of beating you up davew3! Your contributions are as valid as anyone's. I don't think there are any real right or wrong answers, just opinions depending upon how you interpret the evidence.

It's like in archaeology:- they research a site first; dig it; record what they find; and then the guy in charge attempts to interpret the results. But, at the end of the day, that's only his opinion. Other people looking at the same evidence, or reading his report, might disagree with him totally.

We are just armchair historians & archaeologists, piecing together what evidence seems to exist and testing out a few theories. It's an interesting excercise in local history and even if Erainn (our site director??!!!) is more academically equiped to investigate the matter more seriously, we can all have our own opinions on the matter.

Chaps,no one here values diverse opinion or informed insights more than myself,so please let's stay on topic, which I agree has attracted some wonderful contributions and helpful information. For sure we are not able to reach definitive conclusions, but we can at least attempt a scale of probability. In that context I feel it unlikely that a river would be named at such a late point in time, and then after coastal defences, when it in all likelyhood carried a name centuries before the first map of the area was ever drawn. The question is for my interest, was that name The Fender? If so, did it derive from Celtic/Welsh/British beginnings? Now such speculation hardly constitutes a gentle tickle, let alone a slap

Pat on the back from me, davew3!
I don’t necessarily go along with the assumption that all the watercourses in Wirral would have had ancient names. In comparative terms they are all insignificant, including the Birket which is acknowledged as the main one (even today apart from the Birket and Fender they are classified as ‘brooks’ which I understand is one step down from a stream). It could be that most were named for the first time in the early 19th century by Ordnance Survey who were tasked with recording all landmarks and giving them an appropriate name if they didn’t already have one.

I keep going back to Bert’s map showing the Birket as The Main Fender and the Fender as Ford Brook and asking: why ‘Main’ when at that time there was no other River Fender on the Wirral? Again, I would suggest that it was descriptive rather than the name of a river.

An early post by geekus pointed out that any stream which becomes managed as part of a drainage system can be termed a fender. In “Ancient Meols” (where the Birket is called a stagnant ditch!) there is a description of northern Wirral: “The deep ditches of sluggish water which intersect this plain in various directions, remind one of the divisions of fields which are common in the Fen country…” The Fens are, of course, naturally marshy regions in eastern England which were drained centuries ago, resulting in a flat, damp, low-lying agricultural region – quite descriptive of North Wirral.

Final contribution from me on this one.

I suggest that it might be useful to check the field-names on the local tithe schedules for the lands through which the Main Fender & Fender Brook appear to have run.

Look for any clues (particulary any evidence for Celtic/Welsh/or British names), particularly in the area around Woodchurch & Landican. It's all very well that we interpret the Landican name in particular as being early in origin but what other evidence is there? Field-names often remain unchanged for centuries and are more likely to provide at least hints of evidence concerning how they were used and by whom in the absence of other historical records.

A point of clarification, it is not an 'interpretation' to consider Landican as an ancient British place name;any more than it would be to describe Wallasey or Liscard as not deriving from such beginnings, it's generally thought to be so.

As to natural features, hills, streams, they tend to have names pre-dating what would be (in the case of Wirral at least) essentially Medieval field names/boundaries.

No general assumption was asserted that all streams in the Wirral possessed ancient names, rather it was speculated that it is highly unusal for such natural features to be named after artificial constructions and at presumably such a late stage of history. Also still puzzled as to why, if the Fender was named after such a coastal embankment, it of all similar streams, brooks or trickles should be singled out to be named that way, when others retained earlier titles?

If you read enough books on the subject of place-names etc., you find that theories come and go. Pick up a book written last century, or even just fifty years ago, and you will find some very different ideas on the origins of place-names. Such ideas go in and out of fashion. And although it is generally accepted that Landican comes from Welsh 'LLan' Tegan or Tecan, it is not the only idea that has been put forward. There is, for example, no known Welsh (or British?) saint called Tecan to have named the church (or Llan) after. Also, if you look at places like Wallasey it's not that long ago that people seriously suggested its name was derived from "Wall of the sea" or Wall at the sea. And even I know that the Walas part of the name can be interpreted as walls; wells; or welsh.

I personally am not a linguist, nor am I a qualified historian or archaeologist - I'm just someone who reads a lot. I do think field-names & place-names are useful but I also am aware that even some professional archaeologists have little faith in them, because they can often prove misleading.

I understand Erainn is after long ago river names a bit romantic but it's a valid a point,my thoughts,If you look back towards the sources they all drain off from the hills into the Moss but the names Ie Prenton brook, Newton brook etc appear to stop at the edge of the reaches of the Moss on the maps, with Prenton brook it stops at Woodchurch rd but the edge of the Moss appears to be just past Ford Bridge Upton,I think that as they drained the land it slowly dried up, you would need to continue the land drain up to the new edge of the Moss,I think the Birket is a bit different,I believe well guessing that Meols ,West Kirby drains went into Newton brook and that was the name up to the Moss,but over the years with the areas around Hoylake, West Kirby opening up they were draining the land as fast as they could and tidied up where needed and turned it into a Fendered river,it's worth a look to see if we can find any name apart from Fender,Cust I think he had spent a load on Mockbegger house to get up to standards and he was protecting his investment after maybe bit of his back garden was eaten by the sea,if you look it does do a dogs leg,the other thing is one of the maps says peat if you look at one of Berts other maps by Lingum and the lighthouse shows the the Birket is very close to what looks like shore sand ,it does say dunes by it on the map.

Agree that such an area of study is prone to some variety of opinion, it is not empirical nor a subject with proveable conclusions. You are correct to note the Welsh associations of those names, however mislead in the understanding of the origins of Landican, as the Saint involeved was neither Tegan nor Tegan, but probably Tecwyn, indeed there are a number of Llan-Decywn in Wales, of which Landican is a variation, echoing the British/Welsh settlement in the Wirral.

As to the Fender I have no attachment either way as to the origin, simply offering questions on possible alternatives, and enjoying the flow of ideaas and information. Besides, that part of the stream/river that interests me was, as noted in an ealier post, once named as the Ford Brook.

My offerings in terms of the possible origins of the name of the Fender itself, and its connection with the coast and eventual discharge into Wallasey Pool, are linked to that area of Wirral's historic asociation with a Welsh/British stronghold/settlement. The 'Island of The Welsh' as was once suggested for the meaning of Wallasey. Now if that has any foundation in fact, it is not too wild a fancy to conceive that a river passing through such land may well have been named by a local Welsh/British people. If we are prepared to consider such a proposal then there is a tantalizing hint offered by Welsh and Cornish terms respectively, for what's described as a 'managed spring', ffynnon and fenten. Not far removed from 'Fender'. Could it be its name derived from some original spring?

Purely as a point of interest, Richard Coates discussed the origins of the Landican place-name in a recent study of 'The sociolinguistics of north-western Wirral'. He argues that an early attribution of the church to Dagan (a seventh century Irish bishop) is likely.

Mmmmm, maybe he should look a little closely at the early dedication to the Church at Woodchurch, he may find an interesting clue there.

He also wrote an article suggesting the Liscard place-name was Irish, not Welsh.

See: - 'Liscard and Irish Place-names in Northern Wirral', Journal of the English Place-name Society, 30 (1997-8).

The Irish have the Irish chronicles and I believe the Welsh also have a British chronicles or Cambria or something, do we know if the Welsh one has been translated from Latin? and in a book somewhere and does it have anything on Wirral, but using a name like Erainn I presume you would know, also what about the Vikings in the area would they have named the rivers, I will have to reread the dr Steve Hardings books I have,the books do have field names,I have no idea's on ye olde British people so a clean slate and a willingness to read is all I can offer.

just seen we have gone to page 14

I see, flying in the face of agreed understanding, all for that, however would need to see his writing before concluding such an angle held any truth.

Well, as far as I understand names of natural features, particularly rivers, tend in general to pre-date later settlements from Scandinavia. Take the Tyne and Wear as an example, both Brythonic names that flowed through territories later under both Saxon/Angle AND later still Danish control/settlement, yet the rivers kept their ancient name. There is one river in North Yorkshire, the Greta which does appear to have been named by Danish settlers, so it happens, however usually the old titles continue.

University Of Aberystwyth is your place for the Annals Cambrae (Cymry) it would be surprising if there was not some reference to what we now call Wirral, as it has its Welsh name, as you probably know, and was part of a 'Celtic' territory up until the first Saxon encroachment from the Kings of to be Mercia

Gentlemen/Ladies no arguments or shouting you have an innocent reading your comments me!

Uttered in a Bob Harris whisper 'No problem'

So at the moment we are really back to square one ,with lots of quotes floating about with references from books of various learned gentlemen

Well, we were always in an arena of probability, rather than conclusive fact. For my part I have enjoyed the exchanges, information and have offered a different possible origin for the name of the River Fender. Of course it may well be that the goof folks of the Wirral were a prosaic bunch and did indeed name the river after a defensive sea embankment. However being from Celtic heritage myself that'sd lacking in imagination, so I'm throwing my lot in with a more colorful and ancient origin. However, if Wirralians of yore had a peculiar habit of naming rivers after man-made constructions/artifacts we may now need to start wondering if there was an Arrow factory somewhere north of Woodchurch

You also have to consider that because of its location, North Wirral may have been a politically neutral trading zone of sorts. Not specifically ruled or administered by any one group or peoples. It's a buffer zone between the Welsh kindgoms, the English kingdoms, and the Irish Sea traders. This could be one of the reasons why Meols in particular appears to have survived so long as a trading port (or beach market, as some say).

These groups of people may have co-existed in many respects, and the normal processes identified by linguists or historians for the way in which settlers come to leave their mark in place-name evidence etc., may not necessarily apply so rigidly in the case of Wirral.

That may well be the case, but it's not so much the rulership of a particular group that determines the naming of natural features such as a river, usually it would be a matter of time, with the earliest population having conferred titles. This explains the many Brythonic river-names in Britain as a whole, and who knows may apply to our discussion. What is certain is that the naming of the Fender, if down to a Welsh/British population, may well have been given prior to later settlement from Saxons or Norse, when the peninsular was part of a wide network of British groupings. One thing for sure, if the river was named after a flood barrier, can we accept that earlier peoples, be they Welsh or otherwise, were so bereft of imagination that they were unable to confer a name, upon what would have been an important feature of their environment? Or that such a nameless condition spiralled through the Centuries, until some bright-spark announced, following the construction of an embankment in the 17th or 19th Century 'I know! We'll call that formerly nameless waterway. the Fender!" History come-to- life me thinks

Is there a soap factory in Port Sunlight ?? or did they name it after a soap!!! I can imagine the arguments raging between historians a few centuries from now.

Low ball!.

Appears the irony was a tad too subtle for some

Before this thread my only assosiation with the River Fender was i fell into it a few times and crossed its bridges, there have been some excellent contributions and i have found it to be educational and fascinating, most certainly i would like to thank every one who has contributed and given their formed opinions.
At least the one thing we all agree on is that a river does exist and always has, even though its been interfered with by man, i assume on many occasions.
I have to believe that this river must have always from early times had a name and its unlikely in my mind that its name came from a defensive structure, it would probably be the only river to do so, as previously mentioned all other rivers, brooks and stream have been afforded their own title, and not after a defence barrier. No one can deny the river in question had a defensive barrier which could easily lead anyone thinking thats were its name derives, i throw this in to the pot, is it not possible for The river Fender (Main Fender), needing to be fended.
The thoughts previously expressed on why the Main Fender (river) when there's no other Fender in the area at the time of the map, there's also no evidence that there is a lesser fender(barrier) either. To conclude, The River Fender being fended would throw any cartographer in to confusion.

Dave, you enquired about the Annals Cambriae, as a point of information they do include a reference to the Wirral, in the legend of Culhwch and Olwen, where it's is featured as Cilgwri, the home of an ancient mythical bird. The basic story is summarized here http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/angelline/mabon_ap_modron.htm this indicates the formerly Welsh make-up of the Wirral.

Just been digging through some old papers I had in a folder on my bookcase and found an extract from a publication called 'Notes on the History of Woodchurch'. As well as outlining the argument about Landican being named either after Dagan/Degan or Tecwyn/Tegwyn etc., it also makes the interesting point that a very early document exists (refered to as a 'quitclaim' dating from about 1250) in which the church at Woodchurch is specifically recorded as being dedicated to St.Peter. I mention this, of course, purely to irritate the heck out of Erainn.

Richard Coates says in his paper on Liscard that - "We are not dealing with a place-name containing elements borrowed from Irish; it is fully linguistically Irish, and of a non-archaic type". To very briefly summarise, he says that most of the suggested Irish place-names in Wirral (like Irby, Arrowe, Noctorum and Liscard) all date from the early tenth century and are likely to be connected with the arrival of Ingimund and the 'Irish' Vikings as recorded in the Irish Annals. He goes on to suggest that within the Scandinavian territory which became established in North Wirral contemporary Irish & Scandinavian names are found, and that there was probably no single "community" language in the settlement area; but it is most likely that one language was available for the purpose of name-bestowal whilst the other was the one in ordinary conversational usage.

I can say this thread is turning into a major discussion about the area from now to the distant past, the learning from it, I doubt you could get from a college course, we do have named rivers the Dee and the Mersey, we also minor rivers the Birket and the Fender which are really brooks or streams that took run off from the hills into valleys and then into a marshy area the Moss and into Wallasey pool, which we know existed in the past, thinking on Wallasey pool it is wide and I would have thought shallow, so what action created it, did tidal action from the Mersey or was it worn away via a river or just a number of Brooks converging into it,when was the marsh created, was it winter weather and tides that created it,the maps we have seem to show the Birket as a slow winding brook which drains into the marsh,the same with the Fender as a kid I remember it was a slow winding stream by the railway line, both have had the flood treatment from the 70's, but they do show they are still brooks or streams, still just draining the hills, which reminds me of the dungeons the stream running thru that is/was that named?, we know they named brooks because because the brooks that run into these rivers are named, are we just going in circles and we have the modern version names of Erainn's ye olde river names ,which are actually the names of the brooks, which where for convience in the last few centuries were just tidied up into a fendered waterway and named?.

PS
I did send an email to prof Steve Harding to see if he can enlighten us.

PPS have saved the url and will look later on as my minder is making me go shopping, sometimes this very long sleeved jacket and the buttons and belts on the back make this coat difficult to get off.

Come on old bean, let's maintain an objective exchange

The church you mention, is somewhat unique in having three dedications, including St Peter, but also much earlier, and of significance to our discussion, that of a British saint, Tecwyn.

As to Norse-Irish (a dubious, misleading term) indeed they were 'removed' from Eire, set up on Man to relocate on the Wirral, but research the dates of that settlement, centuries after the Wirral's British/Welsh population had settled, and had named various settlements and as we are speculating, possibly rivers too.

Haha calling up the heavy artillery eh?

Dave, here's a shot that gives an idea of what those areas surrounding Wallasey Pool, may have originally looked like http://www.flickr.com/photos/sliabhnacailleach/5207209809/ A zone of inter-tidal salt marsh, with barely recognizable streams/rivers feeding into it.

Ah, so if I take a walk down to Thurstaston I can have a real time look.

I was thinking on that how the transfer of water from the "rivers" through the marsh to Wallasey pool went, I understand it may have been blocked by water mills which may imply that it had a fair amount of water as a head to turn these wheels,it also suggests that it had a quite a drop to the pool.

As far a artillery is concerned no, the discussion has go me intrigued and as the gentleman has knowledge of the area and more or less the era your are interested in, the extra knowledge could be a massive help, I'am a great believer in if you don't know then don't be shy enquire as with WikiWirral someone will know.

..don't mean to offend anyone Erainn, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

In objective terms, there is documentary evidence for an early dedication of the church at Woodchurch to St.Peter but there is no historical record or archaeological evidence that specifically links any Celtic saint (be they Welsh or Irish) with the Llan. A single place-name is insufficient evidence (in my opinion), and although in terms of its topography the circular enclosure of Holy Cross Woodchurch is in keeping with many early church sites it cannot even be proven conclusively that 'Woodchurch' and 'Landican' are one and the same.

If your own argument for a British/Welsh settlement in Wirral is correct there should be more than just one or two examples of British place-names. I know diddly squat about linguistics but I am aware that other people far more knowledgeable than myself do argue the case that some of the supposed British names (like Liscard) are in fact more recent.

You have to remain open to the possibility that the reason the watercourses don't have identifiable British names is because either they were relatively insignificant or the British population was less significant than you believe.

Definition of BROOK

Middle English, from Old English br&#333;c; akin to Old High German bruoh marshy ground
First Known Use: before 12th century

names may have been called after places where you could safely cross them and extend to the rest of a river/stream
eg Ford Brook or a a fendered part with a bridge

Thnks for confirming your playful role in this discussion.

I have no 'belief' one way or another, simply airing some reasoned speculation, as to alternative possible origin for the river's name. As mentioned previously it is absurd to consider that the population of the Wirral were unable to confer a name upon that water, until many centuries passed and then supposedly did so after an artificial construction.

I have not sought to conflate the origins of Woodchurch with Landican, just alluded to the the early dedications attributd to that church as being thought to be that of Tecwyn, with the obvious association of similar place names in Wales as Llantecwyn (Landican).

As to the paucity of Welsh British places names on the Wirral, well we are reminded that absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absenceMoreover we need to consider that there are similar patterns of across the country, where British place names are few and surrounded by later Saxon or Norse names. This does not mean however that the local British population were not present, clearly when considering the relatively low (in comparison to the 'native' British) numbers of Saxon/Norse settlers, it is nonsense to accept the notion that original peoples suffered solme catastrophic demographic reduction, and were replaced by countless numbers of invading settlers. The process in Britain was more gradual assimilation,and political and military control, yet with the original inhabitants remaining in the majority (see DNA researches on that issue) though adopting language and possibly some customs/culture. Hence we have a situation where a huge majority were neither Saxon or Scandinavian, but embarced a language and thus place names reflected that. On a local levle a similar model could be applied to the Wirral, yet we should not forget that it is generally held that natural features such as rivers have name of great antiquity, as noted often pre-dating later incursions. That being so, it is not beyond possibility that the Wirral was populated by a Brityish/Welsh people and that local features may well have been given specific names.

On the subuject of water, you should know that springs, streams, pools and rivers were often held by the Celts as sacred and would in all likelyhood not been ignored.

...I did indeed know that about water and have often considered the possibility of an inland lake at the North Wirral lowlands/Bidston Marshes which may have been a ritual site for votive deposits.


...but I digress.

I have been following this topic with some interest, although I am unable to contribute to it other than saying I always knew it as the Fender brook. I have found that the naming of things can change from generation to generation and these changes can well occur in both written and cartographic records although the same object is being talked about.
My comment about Port Sunlight was not entirely frivolous. Locally there is a clear example of cartogrpahic error by the OS. Folly Fruit Farm is no longer a fruit farm but has retained its name

The correct position of Folly Fruit Farm

If you go to bing maps and enter PO20 3SB and switch to Ordnance Survey you will see that it marked as being on the lefthand side rather than the right, right in the middle of our plantation !! (Sorry about this lengthy method but I keep getting told my uploads are too big !)

Such errors are being created even now, so how can one ever be certain that the records are correct ? Can one even rely of the OS

I'm sure part of which you are trying to unravel is down to this sort of thing.
Keep 'em coming.

I’d pretty much given up on this topic as I became out of my depth amongst the academic crossfire! However, I’ve rediscovered some old notes and books which have some comments that may be pertinent.

The first mention I can find of a ‘fender’ in Wirral is in a partition deed of 1 May 1585 relating to Hoose. The land had been bought by Miles Fells and John Roberts, yeomen of Bidston for £100 and the deed was to formalise who had which bit and provided as follows:

“A ditch is to be made on the east side of the Dowes or portion of land from the South Meadow to the highway. Roberts also promises to make an able ditch or fender between the South Meadow and North Meadow, with a platt or bridge over the ditch at the east end. Free passage is to be allowed through South Meadow to North Meadow and vice versa. Fells is to make a ditch on the north side of the Dowes or portion of land between the North Meadow and Upper Lands, and Roberts to make one on the north side of the said Upper Land as far as his land extends. Either party is to be at liberty to enclose in that part of the land which lies between the highway and the sea.”

Whether the ditches required under the deed were for drainage or served as boundaries is open to conjecture. Due to the nature of the land I would suggest a dual purpose. However, the use of the word fender seems to show that it was a term in common use in the 16th century. As this deed relates to a relatively small parcel of land, it is not unreasonable to suggest that there were many other fenders dotted around Wirral which had been made for whatever purpose, possibly as the result of similar legal rulings. So, assuming that there had been lots of ditch/fenders dotted around for centuries, this would support my contention that the Main Fender (Birket) was exactly that – the longest and biggest fender into which the others drained – and any ancient river name had been long forgotten by the local inhabitants. In his book on the history of West Kirby (published 1928), John Brownbill states categorically that “The name Birket for this stream is modern, having been supplied by the Ordnance Survey. The word is a contraction of Birkenhead.”

In the same book, there is an interesting description of the area around West Kirby. particularly as it relates to the problems of flooding:

“The long narrow slip of Great Meols, extending about two and one half miles to the beginning of Wallasey, has a curious appearance on the map, but is due to the old natural features of the land to the south of it. Formerly this land, on both sides of the Birket brook, must have been almost permanently under water, for the surface is now below high-water mark, and so level that the water cannot run away quickly. The resulting swamp or moss or carr formed the natural boundary be¬tween Meols and the adjoining parish of Bidston. The land along the Birket, from Grange to Wallasey Pool, now known as the Great Float, is still liable to floods; and some further difficulty has been created by the formation of the Birkenhead Docks. The 10 ft. culvert which carries off the water, the entrance being on the east of the old Birkenhead Docks Station, has become too small, as the surface water and sewage from a great part of Birkenhead is now drained into the culvert. For this purpose it was not constructed and the Act of 1844 does not provide for it. The culvert's self-acting flap-valve at the out-fall at Woodside closes on the flood tide and opens on the ebb; it thus operates for about six hours between each tide, and this is insufficient to release the Birket flood water, for which it was originally con¬structed, and the Birkenhead sewage as well.
Apart from the Birket brook there are no noteworthy streams. Frankby is bounded on the east and west by two small brooks which join at its northern end and thence flow along the northern boundary of Greasby to join the Arrowe brook, which runs northward along the eastern boundary of Greasby and then, as augmented, between Moreton and Saughall Massie till it reaches the Birket.”

That’s my lot – I’m all fendered out! I shall now sink back into my armchair and contemplate less taxing matters.

Academic? crossfire? Surely not

Great info and certainly supports the association of 'fender' with either boundaries or defensive structure, although that was never in question, nor the flooding which affected costal areas of the Wirral.

As to the assertion that "..and any ancient river name had been long forgotten by the local inhabitants." we are left searching to understand why a local population would suffer a collective amnesia and be unable to recall a traditional name of the river, and thus seize uon the idea of naming it after such embankments. As has been noted, rivers were usually named at some very early stage, and by virtue of the observable fact such names have passed down through the generations is testament to their longevity, and also the willingness of local people to honor and respect such names. It would be highly unusual that our Wirral ancestors be so pecularly struck by memory loss as to need a 'modern' replacement for the name of a river which had flowed past Celts, Saxons, Norse and Normans, one that in all probability had ben conferred a title from some distant time.

You may recall the letter I posted previously when the old inhabitants of Meols and Moreton were quoted as saying: “Well they calls it the Birket now but we never heard it called ought but the Fender when we was young”. Based on your arguments about tradition, collective amnesia and memory loss, then the ancient name of the Birket must have been the Fender. Either that or the writer had been unlucky enough to have spoken to particularly stupid or forgetful locals who couldn’t remember the proper ancient name. Also, I’d have thought that Ordnance Survey would have consulted with the locals when naming landmarks for their first maps. If so - and the ancient traditional name was available – why was it necessary for them to invent the name Birket?

Whilst I appreciate the romanticism of some of your arguments I really can’t subscribe to the view that ancient mystical tenets necessarily survived through the centuries resulting in local people from the Middle Ages onward honouring and respecting river names as if they were Druids.

Is it possible that the various waterways on Wirral were too insignificant ages ago to have been given names until the land began to be more involved in farming and the big landowners sold off portions or had tenant farmers causing a need to then create boundaries and prevent flooding by either fendering or maybe even widening or making deeper some of the waterways and in so doing made them enough noticeable enough to warrant naming

I still believe as to what I said, somewhere back,I still believe that the Birket and Fender were too small to be named and looking at the Tithes, the drainage appears to have been done over many years and also has been straightened and modified and the naming was recent before the docks were built as I think they had to sort the drainage out before they could build the docks, not just the great culvert but around the area's where the tip is,yes they could have got permission and as they had to get Parliamentry approval, ok Erainn has a point about naming of rivers ,but watercourses long long ago,it's his area of expertise and where would we start, I am quite happy to try and attempt to prove that the rivers/watercourses/fenders of Wirral had names or not but how?.

What is being presented is not a personnal attachment, nor some flight of romanticism, although that genre of creativity should not of itself be considered a measure of falsehood. No, what is offered is the cold truth that natural features, such as rivers, are in the main carrying names ascribed at some early moment. Why, there appears such a resistance to that common tradition not applying to the Wirral is most curious, particularly given the paucity of hard facts, in terms of the river in question, which we are asked to accept was some nameless trickle, until the construction of coastal flood protection.

I'm happy to accept that alternative, as a possible model, if it were not for the relative closeness of Welsh/Cornish (Brythonic) names for a controlled spring/water with the actual name Fender. This scatches away insistently

It's a fair point and may well have applied, yet there are often riches to be found in a name (notice no refrence to conclusive evidence. While there is indeed reference to Fender, in terms of defence/barrier we also have it as a possible variant of an earlier Welsh/British name for controlled spring,

I think a good start would be to sort of the definitions of "River" , "Fender", "Brooks", "Streams" ,You idea Erainn is what I would call a Brook you seem to call a River,I only know of two rivers and they are the Dee and Mersey ,the Birket and Fender I would call Brooks, well the Fender a Brooklet.

Agree entirely with that point, more so as I recall playing near that very waterway and as you say hardly a raging torrent, but that in itself, more so in that part of the 'river' I'm interested in (not coastal defences in Meols) around Storeton/Landican (then called Ford Brook) raises doubts concerining supposed protective embankments along the course of such an insignificant water.

The other fact to note, and not without significance either, is across the country just how many seemingly unimportant brooks, streams have been named, and as noted from periods of some antiquity. Any OS map of decent scale will soon reveal that, so I'm not sure that size is always of prime relevance, in terms of ascribing a name.

It's all interconnected, to me I would have said that Prenton brook was the name of the "Fender" to the marshes and the lower reaches were "fendered" ,Iam not too sure about the Birket but I would have said Newton brook until it was "fendered" from little Meols,I also believe that there was a inundation into the birket not too far away Moreton lighthouse,Carr lane way where they have a sewer pipe into the Irish sea, but that's another thing.

That's plausible for sure, yet is dependent on the scenario of relatively late coastal defences and for whatever reason a renaming of a stream/river in favour of such constructions. It's very unusual for such features not to have been accorded a name at some far earlier time.

One of the other little problems is coastal erosion over the period your interested in too now, is it possible that the coast could have been to where low water gets to, if so was there more drainage or even a river that the brooks drained into which in turn drained into the Irish sea but as erosion continued got blocked by sandhills and the other natural outlet Wallasey pool, all guess work.

Fair observations, no doubt as to the shifting nature of the north Wirral coastline and inundation, that process would have been ongoing form a very early period. Of itself though it does not help in terms of the stream/brooks/river's name, as that is based upon an assumption that asserts the name of Fender being only a term for defence/barrier, therefore explaining the title.

Now, being from the Wirral myself I recall a certain 'hostility' towards anything Welsh, and I wonder, to what degree sub-conciously at least, such mild antipathy may explain the resistance to the notion of the Fender being named by British/Welsh peoples. Well, to those who prefer to celebrate the Wirral's Norse heritage kindly take note the following: The term 'Fen' derives also from the Old English fenn; related to Old High German fenna, Old Norse fen meaning either low, flat, swampy land; a bog or marsh or alternatively, 'mud'. Well now given the wealth of information presented on the inundations of north Wirral and the bog-like nature of Wallasey Pool, a picture forms as to why that specific region may be called Fen. This may well be the origin, as opposed to defensive embankments. So looking at it in terms of Germanic/Saxon languages 'Fender' is a variant/derivation of Der Fender, ie The Fen

However, it does not explain why inland, away from such an environment, a stream that lead eventually into such an area, once titled Ford Brook, would be renamed as the Fender, unless we are talking of mid-19th Century cartograhpic sloppiness.

As it's obvious you haven't got any name for the rivers/brooks in the time you are inquiring about but in your research have you seen any names for these rivers ,say Norman or civil war times?.

Am i wrong in suggesting, prior to any defencive structure the Main Fender(river) would have been a very significant river due to the tidal influence from Wallasey pool, hence the reason for a barrier in the first place.

Just a theory on the name change from Fender to Birket, reading Dr Mark Adams report further back in the thread, and other evidence, the Birket running from Tranmere pool up to New Brighton, etc, when the construction of Wallasey pool docks etc came about, it is possible the name birket would have been lost forever.
Its original course not appearing on modern maps, not wanting to dismiss this river completely due to the fact that there is a theory that Birkenhead got its name from it. With reconstruction of its flow, is it not possible they changed the Main Fender to the Birket, wanting to maintain the name Fender, they then changed Ford Brook to Fender, due to that part of the river becoming more significant after the construction of Wallasey pool.

I had resolved not to involve myself any further with this particular topic, believing it was only really going in circles. However, against my better judgement, I find it necessary to respond to some of the recent comments by Erainn.

I can't believe that in attempting to defend your arguments concerning the origins of local river names you now imply that peoples resistance to your ideas smacks of Welsh hostility. Over the course of the last few weeks you have argued that our local ancestors were either unimaginative or just plain stupid if they could not give a more original name to these waterways, and now you are suggesting that we are inherently anti-Welsh. This is absolute nonsense.

I think your ideas are very interesting Erainn but you seem totally immoveable in your own thinking. Just because some people find weaknesses in your argument you should not take it personally. Whilst I respect that you are obviously very intelligent I also think you should know better.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to disagree with each other intellectually but your own responses to this topic are becoming a bit more subjective. I would be genuinely delighted if you were proved to be right and we were able to put an earlier name to these waterways - it all only adds to a great understanding & appreciation of our local history. But if this topic is to continue (and be seen as a balanced and well reasoned argument) it should really steer clear of any pettiness.

aaah The printed word. I wish I had the education to use it to its full potential.Stick with it Geekus your worth your wieght in gold.I am still up for the field survey Erainn if it is still on.I was out last week with my Grandson found a few bits and pieces of interest.

The information that has come out of this discussion is just brilliant, I would like some definitions as above, but we are back to Erainn's question did these water courses/rivers of Wirral have names in the distant past, his theory as I see it, is if other area's did put name's watercourses/rivers then Wirral rivers should have had name's, I've no idea, I will have to go to the reference library and see If there's anything.

I still see we have lots to work out on the waterways even if it's just to see when they were named and if possible when the were fendered ,the Rubicon has me wondering if that had another name but that's for another time.

Oh dear, a straw-man argument, ah well as I'm feeling good with the world I shall attend to those bunions, which seem to have been trodden upon. Meanwhile, to soothe any inflamation perhaps it would better to stay on topic and avoid indulging in distorting comments made by fellow contributors.

In writing responses there has to be a certain assumption that a reader has the capacity to follow basic grammatical meaning, for example in the rush to take up a 'wet echo (anyone recall that local term?) against what you assert to be a slur on my part. I am happy to present this again, with some additional notes:

"Now, being from the Wirral myself I recall a certain 'hostility' towards anything Welsh, and I wonder, to what degree sub-conciously at least, such mild antipathy may explain the resistance to the notion of the Fender being named by British/Welsh peoples."

First point this is entirely speculative, it is not a charge. Secondly to anyone not riding a donkey with soap in their eyes, it is obviously invested with a degree of humour, I am puzzled how you missed that. Thirdly, you will note although in a speculative and humourous frame, the dilute and harmless nature of such attitude is emphasised by terms being placed in 'speech-marks' and clearly asserted as mild. T'was a naughty poke offered with a tongue firmly in cheek and I am at a loss as to how somone of your obviuous taste for comedic comment could miss that.

Now regarding your other curious outburst, at no stage have I boldly affirmed our collective Wirral ancestors as being lacking in either wit or creativity, what was aired, was the use of irony to emphasize a point, which insisted that the river was named after a coastal defence structure. It was offered, again with transparent humor and irony that this proposal required us to accept (what is clearly a nonsense) our ancestors were seemingly unable to name the river, for lack of imagination. Now for whatever reason you appear unable ot unwilling to read my comments in the context and meaning in which they are offered, which is disappointing as I value your insights and contributions, despite your obvious attachment to the notion of the river being named at some late stage in honour of a coastal embankment.

The discussions on this subject are clearly all within the arena of speculation and subjectivity and no one has thus far sought to assert themselves as the bearer of objectivity, there are too little facts for that. However there are scales of probability which can be examined and I for one have immensely enjoyed the information and contributions of all who have made this thread such an an informative and revealing one. I have made clear that I am presenting alternative perspectives on this subject and hold no particular model as supreme, what is emerging however is a number of valid questions and doubts concerning the idea that this river is named after a 16th or 19th Century coastal embankments. In my humble opinion there two other options that end themselves as being more credible, either it derives its name from a rendering of an early Welsh title for a controlled sprng/water. Or, as I have recently discussed, the name may be born from Germanic/Norse origin; the term 'Fen' derives also from the Old English fenn; related to Old High German fenna, Old Norse fen meaning either low, flat, swampy land; a bog or marsh or alternatively, 'mud'. In light of the wealth of information presented on the inundations of north Wirral and the bog-like nature of Wallasey Pool, a picture forms as to why that specific region may be called Fen. As I have proposed this may well be the origin, as opposed to defensive embankments, with 'Fender' is a variant/derivation of Der Fender, ie The Fen.

I remain more than happy to discuss the matter-in-hand, and welcome your contributions, however I shall not be investing any further time in addressing fallacious responses.

Well I am considering a trip up there at some stage and maybe we could indeed tread the sod

What's all the arguing about in this thread? Not been on it for a while and don't fancy reading 17 pages of it!!

Has anyone looked at this.....

Excuse the formatting, just cut and paste from The Cheshire Sheaf

THE WORD. ' FENDER' AS THE NAME OF A STREAM.

The word fender, meaning a ditch, or slowly
flowing stream, is, so far as the writer knows,
peculiar to Cheshire, and he would be very
grateful for any other record of the occurrence
of the word.
The earliest mention which he has found is in
a document dated 1st May, 1585, being a deed
between Myles Fells, of Bidston, and John
Roberts of the same, fixing the boundaries of
their adjacent holdings in the Hoose, now a part
of Hoylake. In the course of this deed it is
provided that " a good sufficient and able ditch
and fender shall be made between the said
North and South meadows." And further on, it
is agreed that either of the parties shall have
permission to cut a ditch " from the aforesaid
fender " to so-and-so. In this case the use of
the conjunction am?between "ditchand fender"
does not; make it clear that they mean the same
thing, but the later references will do this.
In a survey of the Manor of Bidston, in the
possession of Robert De Grey Vyner, Esquire,
dated 1665, the road running from Bidston to
Moreton, and which crosses the little stream
still known as 'The Fender,' is called 'Fender
Wa[y],' while in a Court Roll of the same
manor, dated early in this century, or the
end of last—the writer is now speaking from
memory—one of the tenants is summoned for
not keeping his fenders or ditches clear of mud.
The writer has also seen the word used later
than this, when speaking of the Wallasey Pool r
it was stated that under certain conditions of
the tide the water ' backed up in the fenders or
ditches.'
In all the above instances, with the possible
exception of the second (Bidston Survey, 1665),
the word is used as a common noun, but in
any map of the district the stream running
in a northerly direction between "Woodchurch
and Upton on the west, and Oxton and
Bidston on the east, is to-day called " The
Fender," and everyone who knows the countryside
about Hoylake, Moreton, and Wallasey also
calls the other branch of the same stream
MARCH, 1898. THE CHESHIRE SHEAF. 29
(which rises at the north of Grange Hill). "The
Fender," though the Ordnance Surveyors, for
some inscrutable reason, have invented the
name Birket for it. So here we have the
common noun erystalised into a proper one.
Any other examples of the occurrence of the
word or name will be welcomed by the writer.
Also any suggestion as to its derivation

Thanks for that Deano, a portion of that was put on,
Has this thread now been put to bed, its been very quiet.

everyone seemed to ignore the earlier name for the river that I referenced! Thought that might have solved some of the arguments!

Which was? (sorry - too lazy to look back through the thread...)

Still about trying to get something off the tinternet,I know someone has found this site, but is there anybody who knows War Office maps symbols, there is a map on this site with all the airfields on it from 1940/1950 and I can't find out what the symbols mean on the Wirral bit ,a square and a flag one.

http://visionofbritain.org.uk/index.jsp

I think 'argument' misrepresents what were healthy discussion and varying perspectives. As to conclusion, well take your pick,some hold fast to this stream being named after defensive structures, at the earliest it seems to the 16th Century, another view suggests that it may derive from earler times, either from the Germanic/Norse word 'Fenn, Fenna, Fen' meaning marsh, wetland. Or to a possible British/Welsh origin from a word meaning 'managed spring/water'.

It's been a wonderful exchange, some great information revealed and cogent points of view, although as noted earlier my actual area of interest, lies not in the sodden tidal stretches of the exposed coast, but further inland, along a course of the stream once seemingly called 'Ford Brook', only to be re-named as part of The Fender. Ah well, shall have to get back up there sometime

I've had a reply from Prof Steve Harding and have emailed him again to ask permission just to use the main body of his reply,I will put his answer in my words later, as I have an appointment ( well Iam under orders to take madam shopping),I can't do it now.

Email sent by me to Professor Steve Harding
We are trying to find out if/when the river Fender and the Birket were named and if they were named in Celtic or Viking times or even before that and I am wondering if you would have any information on the subject, knowing that your interest is the Viking era.


His Reply highly edited until he gives his permission to publish.

He says they are NOT viking names.

River names can go back even before the Celts, but they don't think it does for the Fender and the Birket, the names seem to be more recent.

The authority is J. M. Dodgson, "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I.

The Birket was called the Birken and was considered to have come from Birkenhead.

Dodgson thinks the stream was called the Fender like the present one.

The Fender as now may come from the same name as the drainage or the bank that protects low lying land.

The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring to a drainage system or bank to stop flooding, which happened before the sea enbankments were built.

An earlier name is 1522 sheaf "The water of the Ayne" the meaning is unknown and maybe much older.
a bit of the pdf says:The form Ayne is supposed in Sheaf 4 (613) to be from the Welsh afon but this is unlikely it's etymology is unknown.

Prof Steve Harding has sent a copy to:
Dr.Paul Cavill of the English Place Name Society to see if he can add anything.

I will post his proper email, but that's my cut up version
there is an attachment a pdf of the page from the above book.

This is exactly what I wrote!

I referenced Dodgson a few weeks back!

If you look back at the page (forgot which one it was) where the payments for bridge repairs are tallied up you will see that the "Birken" is named there, not the "Birket". Just mentioning it because I didn't notice anyone picking it up but still referred to "Birket". Cracking subject anyway. Fenders are also the whicker baskets, or tyres, or bits of wood, which are slung over the side of a ship to stop it grating on the dock wall, making them defences also.

As promised the Emails and Prof Steve Hardings reply

To: "dave ********" <davew3@*********>

Thanks Dave
You can quote me with identification and also Paul if he adds anything.
Intriguigingly Birket sounds like a modern Norwegian name "the birch (tree)" but that is just coincidence.
All best wishes
Steve Harding

________________________________________
From: dave ******** [davew3@*********]
Sent: 03 March 2011 10:46
To: Stephen Harding
Subject: RE: Naming of Wirral rivers

Thank you for replying to my questions, can I have your permission to copy the email body of your reply without any identification onto the Wikiwirral, Fender thread.

Thank you for again your help

Dave ********

--- On Wed, 2/3/11, Stephen Harding <Steve.Harding@***********> wrote:

> From: Stephen Harding <Steve.Harding@********>
> Subject: RE: Naming of Wirral rivers
> To: "dave ********" <davew3@********>
> Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 21:53
> Dear Dave
> Thanks for your enquiry. They are not Viking names.
> Also, whereas river names can be very old going back before
> even the Celts we don't think this is the case for the
> Fender and Birket, the names seem to be more recent
> The authorative word is J. M. Dodgson and attached is what
> he writes in "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I -
> which includes rivers and streams.
> The Birket was formally the Birkin which is considered to
> have come from Birkenhead, although Dodgson thinks the
> stream was called the Fender - like the present one.
> The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring
> to a drainage system or bank protecting low lying land from
> flooding - and we know large areas of N. Wirral were liable
> to flooding before the sea defences were built. An
> earlier name is 1522 The water of Ayne, whose meaning seems
> unknown, maybe this is much older.
> I've copied this to Dr.Paul Cavill of the English Place
> Name Society to see if he can add anything.
> Hope this helps a little anyway!
> Steve Harding
>
> ________________________________________
> From: dave ******** [davew3@********]
> Sent: 24 February 2011 08:29
> To: steve.harding@********
> Subject: Naming of Wirral rivers
>
> Dear Professor Harding.
>
> As a member of https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk,I'am
> wondering if you could help in answering a question posed on
> a history forum.
>
> https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/80/1/Wirral_History.html
>
>
> Subject River Fender.
>
> We are trying to find out if/when the river Fender and the
> Birket were named and if they were named in Celtic or Viking
> times or even before that and I am wondering if you would
> have any information on the subject, knowing that your
> interest is the Viking era.
>
>
> my name on the forum is davew3
>
> regards Dave ********
> Wirral
>
>
>



Apart from email addresses removed and the usual threats at the bottom if the email gets in the wrong hands and a bit of formatting because of line breaks,it's as is.
It now means going back through the 17 pages to check out and a look see if we can get the book on Ebay.

The attachment has a pdf extension so needs to be modded to a jpg will do that later and post it.

is everyone ignoring my posts? I have the book here, and quoted it in full!! I'll scan the full article if you want.

Hopefully not Deano, Dave's only posting the reply as promised,
Fog of war and all that rubbish, I wouldn't mind reading the article, if thats possible.

Not sure if I can scan it and post it on the site, but if you PM me your email address, I'll scan it tonight and send it to you.

sent Bert. Stick to conditions as per email if that's OK mate...saves me getting in trouble! Cheers.

Deano
I did read what you said, but do apologise if you think I had my welding glasses on when I was reading this topic, it's just that Iam trying to convert a pdf to jpg but forgot I trashed my pc and I am trying to setup again and yes I would love a copy,if you go to mystuff at the top you can send a message to anybody on wiki, I haven't checked files though but if you have the book page 15 and 23,is the attachment from prof Steve Harding.

No problems Dave, I can't really mass send it out as it's copyrighted, but don't mind emailing you a copy if you PM me your email.

mystuff should be flashing

sent!

actually, being overly paranoid regarding copyright, if one of you guys wish to post it here, then go for it! Just don't say it's from me!

Interesting reply from Stephen Harding, that echoes points raised by other contributors here. Reading his words carefully it's apparent that again, nothwithstanding his academic standing, the matter itself remains unresolved, as demonstrated by the tentative and extenuating tone of Professor Harding's response. I have for the purpose of reference included the most salient extract of his comments, emphasising in bold some words to highlight his understanadble conjecture in light of an absence of any more definitive information. Have also placed in parenthesis questions that spring to mind)

"....They are not Viking names. Also, whereas river names can be very old going back before even the Celts we don't think this is the case for the Fender and Birket, the names seem to be more recent. (On what documented basis is that cautious assertion made?)The authorative word is J. M. Dodgson and attached is what
he writes in "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I - which includes rivers and streams.

The Birket was formally the Birkin which is considered to
have come from Birkenhead, although Dodgson thinks the
stream was called the Fender - like the present one (So we have the opinion of Dodgson, again based on what primary sources?)The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring
to a drainage system or bank protecting low lying land from
flooding - and we know large areas of N. Wirral were liable
to flooding before the sea defences were built. An
earlier name is 1522 The water of Ayne, whose meaning seems
unknown, maybe this is much older.(This observation tends to echo a point raised earlier in the discussions here, in that the stream may well have had an earlier name, only to be possibly replaced at what was seemingly a very late stage)

I am sure that there is agreement that although Stephen Harding's contribution is a significant contribution, one for which Dave merits collective thanks for taking the time to invite that response, it is nevertheless lacking a definitive conviction, being in the same arean of speculation that has hosted the many fine contributions on this subject. On that basis, and with all respect to Professor Harding, may I suggrest questions remain

When you have eliminated the imposible whatever remains however improbbible must be the truth.With all respect to Professor Harding I would think that a scholar of his standing has done just that.

With all respect to Conan Doyle, I think it is clear that the Professor has not eliminated anything impossible, as the alternative options of the name being, either of Welsh/British or later Germanic origins, [u]though speculative[/u], are not beyond reason or possibility. Given the low-lying, flooded and marsh-like nature of that region, prior to the coastal defences mentioned, we should not dismiss the potential significance to the term 'Fen'

Being derived from Old English fenn. from Proto-Germanic fanja. Cognates include Gothic (fani), Old Frisian (fenne), Dutch (veen) and German (Fenn(e), Venn, Vehn, Feen, Fehn)

What Stephen Harding has done is to offer an opinion, that conforms to the alternative proposal that the stream in question was seemingly named after a defensive flood barrier. In so doing he, as all who have contributed to this discussion, been required to limit comments to speculation as there seems to be a lack of any clear, definitive material on the subject. In that context, no fact has been established and as noted previously, there remain a number of options to choose from.

No no no .... that logic doesn't follow. When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains MAY be possible however unlikely.

Erainn, I am not in academia, so local history informtion is from what I can read from the books that are available and trips to the records offices in Birkenhead and Chester and contact with like minded people on WikiWirral, I contacted Prof Steve Harding and asked as in my email above, his area of expertise is well known and his books on the Vikings sometimes a bit heavy but are a read I really enjoy, his opinion and information is to be something to build on, If the Vikings had named the rivers then this gentleman would have known, we now have a marker to work from, here be Vikings and down that passage be Celts/Welsh/old English ,I feel your using your knowledge and obvious intelligence and your daahn south, London know all attitude to brow beat us amateurs into submission, I'am very happy to have got to this point as the input has been just superb but I now consider this as a closure point for me.

Dave, I am truly saddened if you feel that way and can assure you that my contributions here are based upon a genuine interest in Wirral and its history. The issue under discussion is not about personality but the information we have so far, my points on Stephen Harding's view simply raised reasonable questions.

A point of record, at no stage has any emphatic assertion been made that the River Fender derived its name from the Vikings, there exist some interesting possible associations with local British/Welsh populations at an early time. Also there is an alternative possibility that its be could be linked to the Saxon/Friesian word for marsh/wetland, Fen. Beyond that there's been no reasons on my part offered to attach Viking origins.

I hope you will not withdraw from the discussion, as I like others here value your contributions and as I made clear appeciate your inviting the views of Professor Harding.

Erainn, your either a good windup merchant or you have lost your Wirral senses ,you may be able to get a translator from this forum to help you.
The point I made was,the Viking era is a marker,it's a starter to help go back further from what the professor said,no one has mentioned Viking names,if their had been Viking names then your point would have been brought up a whatif ,if the Vikings named then surely then names would have been used further back,you even made an attempt to call the author of the book about where did he get his references from, the attachment from professor Harding has a pdf file 2 pages from the book he referenced 23/15, I did copy the pages and scanned them and cut the pages to the Fender and Birket one's,the book is copyright and deano has a copy and I was going to email him for the isbn and names and then try and get permission to use those bits here,but I think I will go and entertain myself on the political blogs,Guido Fawkes is a good place to shout and swear.

diggigdeeper
you will have to take it up with the late Sir Arthur Ignatius Conan Doyle 22 May 1859-7 July 1930 it is a "quote" word for word from Sherlock Holmes

Atque inter silvas Acadeum quarere verum.

Could the Romans have something to do with it ?
The latin verb defendo can mean protect or shelter as well as defend.
The Romans were in Chester (Deva) and came into the Wirral.
Could Fender be a version of what the Romans called it ??
If so who did it ?

Ah, quoting from Horace now; that takes me back a few years. (50 years actually).

In fact it's Academi quaerere, but close enough I guess.
To seek for truth in the groves of Academe for those without a knowledge of the classics.

Dave, it's not helpful to indulge in ad hominem, does not advance the discussion and is of course utterly irrelevant to the subject in hand.

I have outlined previously my points on Stephen Harding's offering and do not feel it necessary to repeat them. By all means share any further information from the sources you mentioned, it will be genuinely appreciated. If they, like the extracts already discussed, are simply embellished opinions, then as such they are no more convincing models than the ones proposed thus far.

...seems like mine aren't the only toes you've been treading on Erainn.

The fact is, it can sometimes be difficult for people to judge the true tone of comments on forums such as these, and it doesn't really help matters when any of us start using complicated language and clever arguments.

Davew3 made an excellent contribution and went to a lot of trouble to contact Professor Harding so we could all benefit from his opinions. If I wasn't so busy jousting with 'strawmen' I'm sure I could think of a pithier retort to your posting. All I can really say is that you did seem somewhat dismissive, and in dismissing the professor's comments it appeared as if you were dismissing davew3's efforts. I'm sure, however, that that wasn't your intention.

As an academic, I'd like to propose that good old plain English is the best medium for discussion on wiki sites.....just my two pence worth.

Please can you try to refrain from personalizing the discussion, I appreciate that misrepresentation and fallacy maybe a particular specialism, but it in no way serves the general discussion. In case your eagerness to join the supposed 'fray' has clouded your field of vision permit me to remind you that this thread is about the River Fender [i]not the personality of contributors[/i].

I am not going to dignify some of the more negative comments made with a reply,suffice to say that any offerings on my part should be evaluated in terms of content, reason, information on a fair and mature basis. In that context I stand by my observations on Stephen Harding's remarks, and add this. I do not subscribe to a school of tugged forelock that asserts simply because a person holds a Doctorate in one discpline it qualifies them as infallible on other areas. I'm sure that Professor Harding (whose specialism I understand is within one of the Sciences) has a deep interest and knowledge of Scandinavian Wirral, that in itself does not elevate his comments on the Fender; which were in themselves cautious conjecture, as opposed to cold fact, as any more likely than other possible origins.

I will also request you to note that due appreciation and acknowledgement to Dave was given in my comments for his invitation to the Professor. So let's have none of this misrepresentation, or playing the agent provocateur. I note your habit of setting up straw-men, which again is not progressing the actual subject being discussed, along with a somewhat underhand attempt to conflate my reasonable questions on the Professor's comments with some supposed ingratitude towards Dave's efforts. That wholly misrepresents my comment and motivation, which I am confident you were were aware of in drafting your remarks.

I'm riding off into the sunset on my donkey as you speak Erainn!

There is genuinely a funny side to all of this, you know, but I'm finding it rather difficult to see what with all that soap in my eyes.

I'd blame bert1 for the arguments caused by the above question.
Still it's been quite interesting even though we've been going around in circles and are back where we started - non the wiser.

Not entirely, as at the begining the word was simply that the river was named after a flood defence structure, now there are alternative origins to consider.

I was following this thread and then lost touch a little. Trying to push it back on topic, have I missed any post where the earlest references to the names came from?

I have seen an old map (1800?) where the present day Fender is called "The Ford Brook" and the present day Birket is called "The Main Fender". There is also the Arrow Brook more or less where it is today and the Greasby Brook.

here's another one to throw in to the mix - Gill Brook from 1825 map
seems to have gone off later maps

Thought we had a Toad Hall at first glance

I guess this is where Gill Brook entered the Wallasey Pool.

Not sure how relevant the following is, but the origin of the name Gill has some interesting associations, most notably Norse, and also Irish.

1. English: from a short form of the given names Giles, Julian, or William. In theory the name would have a soft initial when derived from the first two of these, and a hard one when from William or from the other possibilities discussed below. However, there has doubtless been much confusion over the centuries, and the modern pronunciation can hardly be taken as a reliable guide to the origin.
2. Northern English: topographic name for someone who lived by a ravine or deep glen, Middle English gil, gill (Old Norse gil gill of a fish, also used in a transferred sense of a ravine). 3. Scots and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Gille (Scots), Mac Giolla (Irish), patronymics from an occupational name for a servant or a short form of the various personal names formed by attaching this element to the name of a saint. The Old Norse personal name Gilli is probably of this origin, and may lie behind some examples of the name in Northern England. 4. Scots and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac An Ghoill. 5. Dutch: cognate of Giles.

Nice clear map, Derek. Here's another one showing the Gill Brook and also one I've not come across before - Bridge End Brook.

I've found some plums on the floor over here; did they fall out of somebodies mouth?

Please this is fairly serious debate for those of us that are interested in it even those opinions we don't agree with - don't start up an argument.

Going off topic - can anyone name the roads on the map?
I've put on 2 that I think are correct

A little snippet to confuse some more
from
http://...co.uk/wallasey/Wallasey_Ferries_The_Beginnings/index.html


About 1552 proceedings were commenced when John Minshull and his ferry man, John Bromborough, were accused by Ralph Worsley, owner of the Woodside passage, of violating his rights as successor to the Priory estates. Minshull had set up a rival ferry and a busy fish yard within the confines of Birket (Tranmere) Pool and claimed as he owned 'the ferry of Secum', he had ancient rights to the rights of Tranmere

Could the stream coming off Tranmere Pool have once been called the Birkett or was it the Happy Valley?

According to McIntyre (Birkenhead, Yesterday and Today) "Borough Road was then [1801] a wooded valley with a stream running to Tranmere Pool, which began to widen at the bottom of Clifton Road" I've not come across a name for this stream other than references to the Happy Valley

Have a look at "The City Of The Dead." The early history of the town
Mr Fergusson Irvines Interesting Lecture.
A few roads get a mention and Toad Hole Farm you might be able to transfer some of the information onto your maps

Been reading this and its very interesting. I live on the noctorum, by the townfield shops. Opposite those shops (by the field) there is a ditch, which seems to lead over the road to where the new miller homes estate is. If you travel further into the woods then you get the impression that there was a small stream or water way passing through there.

I was just wodnering as to whether anybody had any information on this?

This is the area in question

Maps of where the Gill Brook emptied into the West Float.
That famous old 'tubular' 87 ton crane was on the corner of the basin.

Bridge End Brook seems to pop up from nowhere, could it be the spring in the park,which used to be the cented garden.

Here's an 1835 Bennison map of Bridge End Brook entering docks at a big basin, with Corporation Road crossing it, presumably by the bridge. I estimate it would have been near the South side of Egerton Dock.
Could Gill Brook and Bridge End Brook have been diverted later into the Great Culvert?

I think you're spot on!! WRS McIntyre writing in 1948: "From the marshy land near the present Park Entrance, a stream wound along the course of what is now Conway Street, turned between Camden Street and Adelphi Street, and emptied into Wallasey Pool by Bridge End Farm"

someone mentioned a river running under the oid Ritz picture house on conway st, clicky

Thanks for the great "read" and the detailed history of the Wallasey Ferries .
Just a couple of points to add - 1. McIntyres book was given out ,free, to all
Secondary School pupils . His Map of 1800 is a representation and not meant
to be 100% accurate. 2. Some writers named the brook/stream leading down to
Tranmere Pool as The Rubicon. Just folklore-not officially named.
3. Gonnels Pool is thought to have been the inlet or bay at the site of present
day Shell Oil Terminal -bottom of St Pauls Road, Lower Tranmere.
There was an interesting article in Vol 156 of 2007 , Transactions of Hist. Soc.
Lancs & Ches. That is an essay by Tony Dyson on the History of the Tranmere
Ferry and the Rock Ferry. Can anyone give me his contact details please ?

United Utilities Spring Hill Borehole and treatment plant on Balls Road. I wonder how much water is being pumped out.I have walked past it for years.(Google Earth)

Just wondering if the Haymarket tracks eventually followed the course of the Bridge End Brook and under the bridge in Bridge st by the Old Colonial

My knowledge of Birkenhead geography isn't great, but it certainly seems possible that the mysterious Ritz river could be the missing Bridge End Brook. Well spotted kimpri1.

Hmm good call joe

Mr G65 19th Nov 2010
The Great Culvert
para 42

The public footpath sign next to the old oak tree which points to Noctorum from the shops side of Townfield Lane,carries on at the other side of the road down the back of the houses on Holmlands Drive. There should be a sign on the other side pointing to Woodchurch.The school still use the first couple of yards then it is overgrown and full of rubbish some gardens have taken the footpath into their own keep, some turf their rubbish over the back fence.It would lead to the raiway underpass at the bottom of the Holmlands estate.I helped a friend clean out the back of a house he baught last year. The rubbish included a drum kit, R.I.P public footpath.

Derek I lost sleep last night on this one.I think Nightwalker could be right, but it would I think make the map wrong.The Great Culvert contribution from Mr G65 puts a run off at Vittoria then Bridge End amongst others.Vittoria being the dock and the list being in order it would move Bridge End towards the Ritz.The map is a bit distorted and off scale but that could surely, not be the line of Grange Road.Cheers lads and lasses my head is starting to hurt, but very interesting.

1643 Cavalier troops, ‘Kept a guard about Berket wood’
1644 Cavalier troops, ‘possessed themselves of Berkett in Worrall’






THE CITY OF THE DEAD
WHEN BIRKENHEAD’S PROGRESS WAS STAYED
THE EARLY HISTORY OF THE TOWN
MR. FERGUSSON IRVINE’S INTERESTING LECTURE.
By a coincidence there appears on this page a narrative of what Birkenhead was in the past, and a vision of what it might be in the future.

The history of Birkenhead from the early days of the twelfth century, when the Priory was founded, up to the present time, was mapped out by Mr. W. Fergusson Irvine in his lecture at Beechcroft Hall on Tuesday, on “The Early History of Birkenhead.” Mr Irvine, who is the president of the Birkenhead and Wirral Local History Society, showed the rapid progress of the town in the 19th century until the great railway crash in 1847, which shook the financial stability of the country, and gave Birkenhead the name of the “City of the Dead.”

Mr Irvine said that in order to understand the early history of any place it was always useful to study its topography and the physical features of the land. Most villages owed their origin to some special characteristic, such as a hill, a stream, or an inlet of the sea. From maps of the district made before the birth of the town of Birkenhead it would be seen that the original site on which the Priory stood, and which became the centre of the little town when it began to grow, was a small peninsula of rocky land running out into the River Mersey. To the north of that ran the deep inlet of the Wallasey Pool, now the Great Float, while on the south side there was a corresponding inlet, though not so deep which formed the Birkenhead Pool (or Tranmere Pool as it was sometimes called) which cut into the land as far as the site of the present Central Station, and at high tides nearly as far as the Fire Station at Charing Cross.
From that rocky headland the fields sloped back for half a mile or more into a marshy tract of land, which ran practically from Wallasey Pool to the head of Birkenhead Pool. That rocky promontory fully protected on three sides, and partially on the fourth, was an ideal site on which to found a village, and no doubt from the earliest times there was a settlement on that point. The headland was covered at an early date by birch trees, and from that fact the name Birkenhead, or the Headland of the Birches, arose; the name Woodside helped to confirm that.

Mr Irvine went on to describe in detail the foundation of the Priory in 1150, and the very interesting events in its history up to modern times.

At the end of the 18th century, beyond three groups of cottages round the Priory, [color:#33CC00]at Bridge End, and at Woodside Ferry, and a house or two at Flaybrick, there were practically no inhabited houses in Birkenhead[/color]. In Claughton there was the Grange Farm, between what was now Alfred-road and Euston-grove. There was also a farm on Claughton Fields called Toad Hole Farm, over the ruins of which many of them no doubt had walked scores of times, either when going from Park-road West to the Dock Cottages, or from Park-road North to Flaybrick Cemetery. Then at Cannon Mount, where the Claughton-road trams used to stop, stood a little cluster of white-washed cottages which constituted Claughton Village. The houses now called Claughton Village were not built until 40 years later. At that time Birkenhead was almost completely cut off from the rest of the world. In order to get to Rock Ferry from Woodside, for instance, it was necessary to go round by what was now Charing Cross and thence up Whetstone-lane. For foot passengers there used to be a bridge over the head of Tranmere Pool. a little way higher up than Central Station in what is now Borough-road. Roughly speaking, the only roads, or rather lanes, were what was now Church-street, leading from Woodside, towards the Priory and Grange-lane, leading from the Priory to what was now Charing Cross and up to Claughton. Before Claughton Village was reached, however, a road branched off to the left known then as Slatey-lane, a name which had since been exalted into Slatey-road.

It was noteworthy, too how much of the land in the neighbourhood was rough heath covered commons. Thus the whole of Oxton Hill was moorland, while Bidston Heath reached as far down as the line of the present Shrewsbury-road North.

BIRKENHEAD’S BACKWARDNESS.

The backwardness of Birkenhead at that time was no doubt mainly due to the difficulty of access. The road approaches were most circuitous, while the Ferry was nearly useless. It was difficult to realise that little more than one hundred years ago the entire fleet of ferry boats consisted of two single masted sailing boats for carrying farm produce, while passengers had to trust themselves to the tender mercies of small open boats, of which the ferrymen possessed three, all of which were at least a quarter of a century old. There was no regular sailing, and the larger, or what they might call, the luggage boats, only ventured on the perilous journey once a day. But the time had arrived when that wonderful agent, steam, was to revolutionise the means of travelling. In 1815 the first boat to be propelled by that new power arrived on the Mersey. She was intended to ply between Liverpool and Runcorn, at that time a famous bathing resort. Two years later one of those marvels was put on to deal with the growing traffic of the Woodside Ferry, which by that time was in more capable and energetic hands.

About 1830 began the great competition between the different ferries along the Mersey bank in conjunction with the famous coaches which daily raced through Chester and the Midlands to London; a competition which grew keener year by year until steam in the form of railway engines again worked a revolution. In 1811 the population had increased to 193, but in the following decade the effect of the new steamboats began to make itself felt, and the numbers sprang up to 419 in 1821, communication of a rapid and effective character having once been established with Liverpool.

BIRKENHEAD’S FUTURE WAS ASSURED.

Within the next ten years two other ferries were developed, and larger steamboats put on all three services. That wrought a marvellous change in the town, so that in 1831 streets were being pushed out in all directions. Liverpool merchants, especially those who indulged in the luxury of fox-hunting, bought up the land greedily, and built many pleasant houses and laid out lovely gardens, where now stand some of Birkenhead’s lowest slums. It was now that the boom time began. In 1833 Parliamentary powers were applied for, and the first Act for regulating the town was passed. The growth during the next five years was very marked. There was a very good map of the town for 1835, and from this you will realise something of the development that was taking place. Great strides were being made, and the population increased fast. Among the early founders of Birkenhead were several of the inevitable Scotsmen, in particular Mr. John Laird, to whose energy and foresight the town owes so much.

Just as the introduction of the steam ferryboat had begun the development of the town of Birkenhead, so the locomotive was to inaugurate a new era. When the Birkenhead and Chester Railway was opened in 1840 the inhabitants realised what vast possibilities lay before them. In the following year the census returns show that the population had risen from 2,700 to 8,500. The town was now

FORGING AHEAD
fast, but the climax of the boom was reached during the following five years. In 1844 a scheme was carried to fruition for making a vast dock or rather series of docks in the Wallasey Pool, with the result that Birkenhead could still boast of possessing the largest floating dock in the world. The progress of Birkenhead during the ten years 1835 to 1845 was indeed phenomenal. When they realised all that was taking place, the new railway, the new docks and other public improvements, and remembered what all that meant in hard cash, which poured into the town week by week, it is not to be wondered that men lost their heads and plunged wildly into land and building speculations. But after the boom came


THE INEVITABLE REACTION.

Like most works of the kind the building of the docks proved more costly than had been anticipated, and the company was running short of funds. When the great railway crash of 1847 shook the financial stability of the whole country, the works were stopped for the want of the necessary means of carrying on. That was a great blow to Birkenhead. The result was so disastrous that after having had an era of almost unexampled prosperity, when buildings were rising in every direction, the town was at once reduced to a state of such depression that the grass grew over the principal streets. The long rows of empty and unfurnished houses gave such an aspect of gloom and depression that it was called at the time “the city of the dead.”

The docks being then at a standstill, every effort was made to revive the attractions of Birkenhead as a place of residence for the people of Liverpool. Rents, which had been exceedingly high, were reduced enormously, and the ferry charge was reduced from 2d. to 1d. The effect of these changes was to gradually revive the prosperity of the town, and from that time, although it has suffered like the rest of the country from short periods of depression, it had gone on increasing year by year until its population had grown from 8,000 to over 150,000.

Could someone be kind enough to put up a map of the Wallasey and Birkenhead docks system and if possible put the outline Wallasey Pool and Tranmere pool to match
Thanks

Toad Hole Farm? That's an unusual name.

I think the one leaving Grange Lane/Road southwards is Whetstone Lane.

Starting from the Old Quay (Woodside) and moving anticlockwise, the roads roughly correspond to the following modern ones:

Bridge Street - A lost extension of Bridge Street running diagonally between Corporation Road & Cleveland Street (which can be seen on Bennison's 1835 map in Bri445's post) - Old Bidston Road - Cavendish Street - Park Road North - Park Road West & the start of Park Road South - Slatey Lane (now Slatey Road) - Grange Mount - Grange Lane (now Grange Road West and Grange Road) - Chester Street. The road running across the middle to Claughton Farm disappeared when Birkenhead Park was laid out and has no modern equivalent.

Here's a larger area coverage of the map in my post 489458, showing the source in the Park. You can recognise the roads better.

Oops! I've just realised the river doesn't quite reach the Park, across Conway Street, but it's heading in the right direction.

I think you're right. If the Bridge End Brook followed Conway St. and turned Northish between Camden St. and Adelphi St. then it would coincide with the Haymarket-Docks line from about Price St. to the Four Bridges.

P.S. I got that route from nightwalker's post, above.

Anyone have contact details for Erainn?
His PM box is full.
Just noticed this thread, I've some info that might be of use to him.

Tom.

Inbox has been cleared. Do send PM

Article written 2008.
"Jenny Whalley is a landscape archaeologist
who showed us what must be just the tip of the
iceberg of ancient carved stones on Wirral;
images of bears and interwoven Celtic knots
abound. One Viking stone was found recently
in the rockery of a private garden; an earlier
Saxon stone of a man with crossed keys is
believed to have fallen from its bridge over the
river Fender near Landican. Where is it now?
Thurstaston Common is a good place to
search for many individual carvings, including
a Celtic stone head, revealed as a carpet of
heather and peat was peeled back.
Local folklore has named ThorÕs Stone ÔFair
MaidenÕs HallÕ Ð a reference to Norse goddess
Freyja. In recent years local children have
taken part in an enactment of the ancient
spring festival of ÔThe Marriage of the Man and
the MaidenÕ after beheading the ceremonial
Hawthorn (or Green Man)"......... Stone.http://www.wirralsociety.net/pub/wm.sum.08.pdf

There is also a small river behind the Bassett Hound,
Thingwall.Not sure if this is Fender or Birkett.Flows down to the fields towards Landican or Storeton direction.
Maybe some help.

Just one more bash incase you have not found what you are looking for yet.
Wirral.gov.uk Find 'Cycle Map of Wirral'. It can be zoomed in on and shows so much info it's brilliant! The rivers are clear all over Wirral. I believe the Saxon bridge is nothing but a post now.
Good Luck.

Granny, Thanks for your advice/information, there is much of Wirral's distant past that remains unexplored or valued, most certainly the period when it was peopled by 'Celts'.

While researching something else I’ve come across this reference to the naming of the Birket in a paper presented to the HSLC in 1922 by E H Rideout which sheds some light on Bert’s question. Without going through all the posts, I’m fairly sure that there was a suggestion that Ordnance Survey would involve the local population in naming rivers, landmarks etc. This seems to be borne out by Rideout’s research: the original name of ‘Main Fender’ perhaps obtained from the locals of Meols and Moreton and subsequently changed after representations from the local gentry?

The Birket
Regarding the name of this stream, called by Mortimer "Birken" and by later writers "the Birket" there has been a considerable amount of controversy. It has been asserted by some that the name "Birket" was invented by the Ordnance Survey. So far from this being the fact, the stream was called, on the one-inch map, 79, N.E., dated 1839, "the Main Fender" but on a subsequent edition in 1872, the stream is named the "Birket."

On enquiry the Director General of the Ordnance Survey informs me that the name "the Birket" was given to the stream flowing from West Kirby to Wallasey Pool, on the authority of the Rev. W. C. Graham of Bidston; Mr. Sutton of Reeds' Farm; and of Mortimer's History, previously mentioned. Furthermore, the name was again authorised at the time of revision in 1908 by Mr. Peter Stephen, of Mollington, who wrote: "The Birket was diverted when Wallasey Pool was made a dock in 1842, since which date it follows a straight exit to a great culvert under Beaufort Road."

In a "Rental of the Earl of Derby's property in Wirral, 1521-2," printed in the Cheshire Sheaf (3rd Series, iv, 37), are mentioned "Certain profits issuing from a fishery in the water of Ayne, called Dowble Dyke." Mr. W. F. Irvine, who printed this document, considers that the word "Ayne" is the Celtic word "afon or avon," meaning water; and that this name here refers to the present Fender or to the Birket. Which of these two streams bore the name "Ayne" is doubtful, since both of them met at the " Dowble Dyke," marked on the original inch Ordnance maps as " Old Bank."

I have heard that skulls, etc., were dug up in the space between these banks, but have no confirmation of the report; neither is there any record in the name-book of the Ordnance Survey.

'Celtic' eh? now there's a surprise, not

I would like to know where the various rivers,streams and brooks on Wirral start and end
similar to here

Is there a post on wiki saying the Mersey once connected to the Dee


River Mersey
River Dee
Arrowe Brook
Greasby Brook
Prenton Brook
Rivacre Brook
River Birket
River Dibbin
River Fender
Shotwick Brook

any I've missed off

Clatter Brook
Thornton Stream
Newton Brook

From the book "Waterside Wirral" ISBN 1 872568 44 0 £4.99

Some useful maps and info. but not very certain about sources
(where streams end is usually fairly clear).
Nice pictures.

River Mersey:
"The Mersey is formed from three tributaries: the River Etherow, the River Goyt, and the River Tame. The modern accepted start of the Mersey is at the confluence of the Tame and Goyt, in central Stockport, Greater Manchester. However, older definitions, and many older maps, place its start a few miles up the Goyt; for example the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica states "It is formed by the junction of the Goyt and the Etherow a short distance below Marple in Cheshire on the first-named stream." The 1784 John Stockdale map shows the River Mersey extending to Mottram, and forming the boundary between Cheshire and Derbyshire".

River Dee:
"Source
- location slopes of Dduallt above Llanuwchllyn in the mountains of Snowdonia
- coordinates 52°49&#8242;56&#8243;N 3°45&#8242;56&#8243;W"

Hi, I might be able to add a little to this debate. Woodchurch has always been assumed as originally being attached to Landican for several reasons. Firstly, Woodchurch is not mentioned in the Domesday Book but Landican is, with a recorded priest. There is no church at Landican, and since the 'Church of the Holy Cross' is known to have existed in Saxon times then it is suggested that this was the Domesday reference. Secondly, the first mention of Woodchurch is in 1092, 6 years after Domesday was published. Thirdly, the old lane at Landican is running in the general direction of the church (redirected in 1934 when the municipal cemetery was created).
As for the origin of the name Woodchurch we can again look to the Domesday Book for indirect evidence. Like many other settlements, this is the first mention of Landican, where it was originally called 'LLANDECHENE'. The origin of Llan is undoubtadley Old Welsh for church. The secons element 'dechene' may be Old French, possibly meaning 'of the wood'. That would equate to the 'Church of/in the Wood, or Woodchurch.

Specifically, "of the oak".

That's you told locutus!

It wasn't meant as a criticism, just clarification.

Locutus is latin for 'to tell'.

(Also one of the Borg, but that's another story...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUHVuCNmXY

"Locutus" is not Latin for "to tell". "To tell" is an infinitive. "Locutus" is, if I remember correctly, a participle. The infinitive is, again IIRC, "loquere".

Resistance is futile!

http://everything2.com/title/Locutus

(I was really just making a play on words).

Point of interest for locutus (and apologies if I've already mentioned it before on this thread) but there is documentary evidence proving that Holy Cross Church originally had a very early dedication to St.Peter, not a celtic saint.

It's very tempting to look at the Landican place-name and make all kinds of possible associations with that name and the church at Woodchurch, but place-names on their own prove nothing. As early as 1250, Woodchurch was dedicated to St.Peter. And as far as I am aware that it the earliest recorded name for it.

This may come across as being a bit daft, but that's my problem.

The Doomesday Survey of 1086 does not mention Woodchurch, but a Priest in the township of Landican was mentioned. Although, as far as we know there has never been any evidence of a Church at Landican.The way I see it is.

As the river Fender runs through Landican, surely the township would have been close to the river and concentrated in that particular area at sometime preceeding the Doomesday Survey.Therefore, surely a Church would have been nearer the village where the inhabitants lived.

Yes, I would also love to re-write history as we know it!

"Locutus" is not correct Latin for "speaker"; that would be "locutor", as in interlocutor. "Locutus", as the perfect deponent participle of the deponent verb "loqui" (to speak), means "he having spoken" or "He who just spoke", and would properly be followed by a form of the verb "esse" (to be) when in the perfect tense.

I knew that NOT.

derekdwc have you tried google earth maps of the area on the Terrain view?

Graecum est; non potest legi... (or as I prefer to say, it's all "geek" to me!)

Is it the Fender that runs through Landican or the Prenton Brook?

xan's UE

Fender
The map below can be juggled about to see landranger map of the area of Landican.

This particular view is further up the road at Cross Hill, Thingwall. Where the Vikings held their Parlaiments. Can anyone see a rectangular shape in the field and what could it be?


http://www.linking-britain.net/town-landican,17031/

Blow , why won't it work properly? Help -anyone.

Can't see what you're referring to, but from the location, could be the Crosshill reservoir.

You can click on the thumbnail map on this link to show you the area you are describing granny.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/341584

On the corner of Barnston Road and Holmwood Drive.The resevoir is on the opposite side of Barnston Road. When zooming in on the satellite image it looks like a rectagular shape (quite large) beneath the surface of the earth. Geekus's view shows the correct location.

http://www.linking-britain.net/
seems to be very up to date.

Yes, I can see it now; some kind of fencing I think.
http://binged.it/wc3SrZ

Thingwall must be the same root as the Manx parliament; Tynwald.

From Wikipedia
"The name Tynwald, like the Icelandic Þingvellir, is derived from the Old Norse word Þingv&#491;llr meaning the meeting place of the assembly, the field of the thing."

Come on Granny. This is just down the road from you. Get the Bathchair fired up, wizz round the field (in 4 wheel drive of course) and report back pronto !!

Got to agree with Chris. From the ariel etcho-tron-o-graph engraving, it DOES look like a fenced enclosure.

Had a problem firing the Bathchair up, but took off along the main road. Always went down the lanes behind, when dog was still alive and kicking. Not really visible from the lanes but from the main road, the archealogical dig that could have been, turns out to be ............yes, a fence! One way of keeping you all amused anyway.
Chris, there is also a Thingwall in Liverpool. Often wondered if they had a way of communicating across the lands with those medieval type torches they planted in the ground (can't think what they are called) We can see Liverpool from here and maybe in those days they could see the Isle of Man from the raised areas of the mainland. Loads of history in Thingwall with regard to the vikings. It's believed they used to make their way up along the lanes from Bromborough through Storeton to Thingwall. Maybe you know all this anyway.
Sorry for misleading excitement.

Thanks for taking a look Granny.

Hi, granny; never heard of a Thingwall in Liverpool. Are you sure you're not thinking of Childwall?

HiChris,
Definitely Thingwall, nr. Knotty Ash. Thingwall Hall is there still. You can pick it up on Google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thingwall_Hall
Built on a hill. http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/36677

Prof. Stephen Harding (the Viking expert) said there is one in the Shetlands too.

As an added extra, on a clear day, the Pennines can be seen from the bedroom window. That must be 120 miles away at least.

And this one Chris:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/

Interesting.

Thanks for that, Granny. I wonder how many others there may be, and if they were all meeting places.
I have to disagree about the distance of the Pennines, however. Pendle hill, which isn't even the nearest point, is only about 60 miles from Liverpool. At the Southern end, Edale is about the same distance.

You are probably right Chris with regard distance. Just a wild quess on my part. I thought they were about 80/90 miles from Liverpool, but that's probably not as the crow flies. Plus a few more from this side of the river. Anyway, Not sure why I raised that point now, I think it may have been to do with visible distance for sending messages by medieval type torches. Oh Lord, what rubbish and that was without a drink!. Don't say anything.
Having thought about it last night, that would be a load of buncum anyway, they probably wouldn't have been able to see over the top of the trees.
Would I be correct in thinking (and it is only a thought) that they would have followed the path of the river from Bromborough until they came to Thingwall. The stream (not sure whih one at moment) flows through the woods opposite Cross Hill. There is also a stream crossing under Barnston Road, which goes behind the Basset Hound over the fields behind towards Landican and/or Storeton. The thing(not meant as a pun) is that this area has had very little deveolpement and the original flow of the streams or rivers must surely continue much as they where.

As far as I know, all the watercourses in that area feed Prenton Brook which flows through the North Cheshire Trading Estate near junction 3 of the M53, then joins the Fender. As for the streams near Bromborough, the Dibbin and tributaries, they're on the other side of Storeton ridge and I don't think there would be any water connection between Bromborough and Thingwall.
The book Waterside Wirral ISBN 1 872568 44 0 is useful and only £5.

One 'Thing' & another....

http://www.thingproject.eu/node

International Thing Project.

(Sorry if this is diverting from the original Fender query).

Thanks for the link, Geekus.

I took this pic of that part of the stream last yearOn the south side of the motorway in between Landican and Storeton.

Noticed on this map and wondered if some of these brooks still existed.
The map was done in the 1990s and was wondering where he got his info from
click

The Ayne
The Carr
Caldy Brook
the Arrowe brook meeting the Ayne (Birket?)
+ others

Most, if not all, the brooks on the map still exist, although some have been re-named. The best reference I know is "Waterside Wirral" ISBN 1 872568 44 0 Only £4.99.
From £0.01 + £2.80 delivery on Amazon.

Derek, i am curious about the 'shields' on the map above, do you know what they represent.... < schools >

They are the heraldic shields of families who lived locally.

Hi Geekus

I’m very interested to know what the evidence is for Woodchurch being dedicated to St Peter? I’ve heard it before but don’t know what the proof is.

Many thanks
Chris

This from an article that has been deleted from the internet so I can't find anymore about the source.....