Hi,

I’m looking for some help!
Does anyone remember this pub back in the 60s early 70s. I’m trying to piece some fame history together. Don’t really no much about some of my family and would be nice if anyone had any stories good or bad.
So from what I know I had an uncle called Harold who ran this pub in 60s maybe early 70s. Also my Nan named Sylvia ran the North Star similar era. She had a husband called William and sons call graham, Keith, cliff, Glynn, David and a daughter called Tina.
If anyone has any memories I’d love to hear them.

There were 2 North Stars in Birkenhead.
North Star Hotel Laird St is still there as a pub
North Star Hotel 332 Cleveland Street was demolished a while ago
click

The Wheatsheaf building is still there but is no longer a pub

Hi Everyone from a baking hot Perth,Western Australia.
Hope you are all having a safe Christmas.
I'm hoping I can call on you to help me find anything in relation to my family.
My name is Paul Vanderwall and I was born in 1961 in Birkenhead.
My father was Frederick Vanderwall born in 1925 in Birkenhead.
He was married to Joan Corcran.
They were married in 1950 in Birkenhead.
My grandfather on my father's side was Frederick Daniel Vanderwall who lived in Neptune Street Birkenhead.
His first wife was Annie Neish(Jones) who he married in 1923.
Annie died in 1933 at the age of 37.
My grandfather remarried again in 1939 to Dolly Keel.
Annie Neish is my real grandmother who I know nothing about.
I know her and my grandfather also lived at 24 Neptune Street.
Annie had been previously married to Simon Neish in 1916,but Simon died in 1919 and had no children.
If anyone can help with any memories at all I would be so grateful.
Thanks again
Paul Vanderwall

Paul,
Annie Elizabeth Jones father was Thomas Jones, do you know his occupation. It should be on the marriage certificates when marrying Neish or Vanderwall, if you have had sight of either.

Just a possibility, recorded as Anna Elizabeth Jones aged 15 visiting the Peever family, Edward Peever and family, 1911 census, Birkenhead. AEJ, Born in Mountain Ash, Glamorgan.

Possibly the daughter of Thomas Simon Jones and Elizabeth Jane Jones, nee Smith, Glamorgan.

Thomas S Jones was a Warehouseman, it would be handy to know Annie Elizabeth's fathers occupation at marriage.

I would look into this birth,
Name: George F Neish
Registration Date: Jul 1917
[Aug 1917]
[Sep 1917]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Merseyside
Mother's Maiden Name: Jones
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 674

Name George Francis Neish
Sex Male
Christening Date 5 Aug 1917
Christening Place Birkenhead, Cheshire, England, United Kingdom
Christening Place (Original) St Peter, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Father's Name Simon Neish
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Annie Elizabeth Neish
Mother's Sex Female

Death,

Name: George F Neish
Death Age: 22
Birth Date: abt 1917
Registration Date: Oct 1939
[Nov 1939]
[Dec 1939]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 1275

The following are buried in Wallasey Cemetery, all in the same grave, Section 15c Grave 22.

George Francis Neish, December 18, 1939, 12 Claughton Rd, Birkenhead.

Annie Frances Vanderwall, 13 January, 1933, 11 Neptune St, Birkenhead.

Simon Neish, March 4, 1919, 11 Neptune St, Birkenhead.

Paul,

Are you aware, at the marriage to Annie Elizabeth Neish and Dorris Keel, Frederick Daniel Vanderwall declared another name along with FDV. I will elaborate if need be, I don't think anything sinister.

Hi there
Yes I saw that name also
Why would that be?
My grandfather was originally from Sri Lanka
No idea when he arrived in the UK.

Hi Bert 1
When you say Wallasy do you mean Rake Lane Cemetery?
Such a small world,my wife snd children I've in Rake lane for 10 years and visited the Cemetery 1000,s of tines.

You say Annie Frances Vanderwall.
So there is Annie E Vanderwall also?

Sorry Paul, Typo,
Annie Elizabeth Vanderwall, Wallasey Cem, also known as Wallasey Rake Lane Cemetery.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992H-FH19?i=132&cat=1027047

Possible reasons.

As these indexes are based on the original data held by the local register offices, the database will often contain extra entries with the same reference number. The reasons for an extra entry can be one of the following:
Remarriage. Where the lady is remarrying and both her maiden name and former married name are on the entry in the register, then both are listed in the indexes. It is not possible to tell from the indexes which is the maiden name.
Change of name. Some entries in the register show alternative names for both firstnames and surnames. All will be listed in the indexes.
Poor writing. Where the original handwriting in the register is unclear all possible interpretations are listed in the indexes.
Parent's surname differs from child's. For example, if a child is raised by the mother without the father being present, he or she may have taken the mother's surname, so when the parent's surname differs on the entry in the register, both surnames may be used in the index.
Difference between the name as entered by the registrar and the name as signed.
Alias names (also known as / formerly known as).
Hyphenated surnames may be listed as both names and/or each name separately.
The list below will show both husband/wife and wife/husband combinations for all the entries that match your chosen reference number.
Click on the reference numbers in the search results for each entry that you are interested in. This will add the index entry to a summary page.
By repeating the above for any of the BMD web sites in the UKBMD group, you can add more entries to your summary page.
From the summary page you can then decide which certificates you may wish to order. The reference numbers are links to printable application forms.
The entries will remain on your summary page until you close your browser.
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1923
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Year Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JAMES Percy Karolis NEISH Annie Elizabeth 1923 Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended Wirral BW/123/166
NEISH Annie Elizabeth JAMES Percy Karolis 1923 Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended Wirral BW/123/166
NEISH Annie Elizabeth VANDERWALL Frederick Daniel 1923 Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended Wirral BW/123/166
VANDERWALL Frederick Daniel NEISH Annie Elizabeth 1923 Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended Wirral BW/123/166

My grandfather was coloured so things may have been more difficult back then compared to today

Paul,
Do you have either marriage certificate for FDV, if so, what did FDV offer for his fathers name?

Hi Bert
I have absolutely nothing for FDV.
I've tried to look on Sri Lankan records but couldn't find anything.

I will order FDV marriage certificate to Annie.

I suspect you know, only order from here, GRO reg office

much cheaper than ordering from search sites like Ancestry, FMP, etc.

All I can find is a seamans record, 3 October, 1919, arriving at New York, SS Orca,

Percy K James, Ass Cook
Birth 8 June, 1896, Ceylon, British Father,
5 foot 6 inches, 10 stone.
Home Address, 67 Corporation Rd, Birkenhead.

FMP has seamen's records, 1835-1945, they have something on Percy Karolis James, perhaps a photo. I don't subscribe to FMP.

Hi Bert
I can't believe what you've found.... amazing
Thank you so much!!!!!
Quick question,what is FMP?

Find My Past, it's a search site similar to Ancestry.com.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC7Y-VCW?q.anyDate.from=1896&q.givenName=percy%20karolis&q.surname=james

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC7Y-VCW?q.anyDate.from=1896&q.givenName=percy%20karolis&q.surname=james

Hi Bert
Thanks again.
My dad,his sister Adelaide and their half brother George only had DFV after Annie died in 1933.
I have records of my dad in Oswestry district cottage hospital in 1939 and Adelaide being in Hawerden.
I presume DFV could not cope with 3 children to look after.
I don't know when my aunty and dad were removed from DFV or when they returned baring in mind DFV remarried in 1939 to Dolly Keel.
Would they have separated families?
My mum used to tell me that my dad tried to enlist as a pilot during the war but he had a sutter so he failed the medical.
I have no idea what my dad did in the war.
My dads trade was an electrician which suggests he had to be academically sound.
Again no records of schooling in Birkenhead nor Oswestry.

Paul,
Your Father is here in 1939,
Name: Frederick T Vanderwall
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 30 May 1925
Residence Date: 1939
Address: Meenghan Cottage, Upper Brook St
Residence Place: Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Occupation: At School
Also recorded is William J Farmer and his wife Alice Farmer. William's occupation was Caretaker.
I suspect your father was evacuated to this family at the outbreak of war.

Also, I suspect Adelaide would have been evacuated.

The 1939 register has George Francis Neish living at 12 Claughton Rd, date of birth, 10 July, 1917, occupation, Moulder.

Living with him was, Annie Jones, date of birth, 24 April, 1859, Widow.

Possibly grandmother.

Thanks again.
Very interesting information.
I have made a rookie mistake of ordering the death cert for Annie from 1933.
I shall obtain the following:
Marriage cert DFV and Annie,1923:
Death cert Simon Neish,1919:
Death cert George Neish, 1939.
When you say get them from here,where is here?
Can it be posted to Australia?

Google, General Registry Office order online.

Yes, can be posted overseas.

Happy New Year Bert
Just a couple of queries in relation to Simon Neish.
He died in 1919 after being married from 1916.
Would of been in the armed services and would his death of been related to the war or did the Spanish flu pay a factor?.
Where would be the best place to resource his military history if indeed he had one.
And why was he buried in Wallasy when comming from Birkenhead?

All the best, Paul.
Only a death certificate for Simon will show cause of death, his marriage certificate will show his occupation in 1916 or military service at the time if he had one.
I can't see any military records for Simon in the Ancestry collection, he may have been unfit for service or what I think more likely he was reserved occupation being a railway worker.
It appears from the burial records he was first in the grave plot and the cemetery likely to have been the choice of Annie Elizabeth, her preference over others.

Thanks again Bert.
Quick question,where did you find the information on where Annie,Simon,and Geirge where buried?
I might be able to find a picture of the grave.

On a personal note Bert thank you so much for what you've found.i have got the ground work to dig further into my family,a family up until a couple of weeks ago I new nothing about.
Thank you.

Annie's parents and grandparents where from Mountain Ash,South Wales.
Any idea why they would of moved to Birkenhead?
Was the coal industry in decline possibly.

Wallasey cemetery

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog ... %20Library

Click link,
Enter Wallasey in Place box, choose cemeteries, records will only open with camera icon.

Paul,
Are you certain of the Mountain Ash family, I suggested them as a possibility worthy of further investigation, I haven't seen any conclusive proof.

If they were connected to the mining industry at that time period, it certainly wasn't in decline.

Thanks Bert.
Taken on board your comments re Mountain Ash.
I shall delve further.

Would you think the GRO would have a copy of FDV birth certificate even though he may of been born in Ceylon?

I've checked overseas births where I can and a friend has also checked on a different search site to mine, nothing, so I don't think you will find anything at GRO.

I've sent you a private message, click on flashing envelope, top of page.

Thanks again for information.
Presumably there would be a photograph of an marriage back in 1916 and 1923.
Is that likely and would it be worthwhile conducting a search for who would of taken them from a company perspective.
When my mum and dad where married in 1950 they used Fairs Cameras I think located in Rock Ferry I think.
Very keen to try and find any photograph of Annie.

The best chance of getting a photograph is from a family descendant, there's very little chance of finding out what photographer or firm took the photo's, if any. Normally you need a photograph to identify the photographer by their stamp.

Hi again.
Where would I find my dads school history/military.
From 1939 to 1950 there is a gap.
I think he went to the Birkenhead Institute?

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/wirral-archives-service

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries...service/documents-we-hold/school-records

WW2 and that era, Military records are held at the National Archives, also National Service records.

There is a site on the internet for Birkenhead Institute where there are photos of school pupils for years 1943 1946 1949 and a contact who may have some info that helps [email protected].
click link

School leaving age was 15 or 16, he would have left school in summer 1940 or 41 being born May 1925.

Leaving age was raised from 14 to 15 in 1944.

I don't know if you went on the BI site I posted, but in several of the photos (1930s prefect pics if you hover over the face of one of them it gives you the name of that person.

If you look through the 1939 register you see multiple children at school born in 1923 and 1924, the register compiled October ish 1939.

Thanks Bert
Looked on BI link and I think it may be missing relevant years in relation to school photos!

Hi again
Found a photograph of my dad on the BI site under magazines,summer 1939.
My dad was in the boxing club.
First photograph in.

Well done, and thanks to Derek reminding us of the site.

Having barely read some of the magazine articles it was interesting to read the pupils and teachers take on the looming conflict but I couldn't help notice reference to " our return from Oswestry ".
Would it of been the school to organise the evacuation of children on not the parents?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-evacuated-children-of-the-second-world-war

Hi again
Having real problems with the burials of Annie,Simon,George.
Rake lane Cemetery have no record of any burials with the names of Vanderwall or Neish.
Can you screen shot me the information you have in this regard.
Cheers

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992H-FH2F?cat=1027047
George Francis Neish, copy and paste above into browser.

You might have to register and sign in to family search.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992H-FH19?cat=1027047

Annie Elizabeth Vanderwall

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992H-F4R8?i=645&cat=1027047

Simon Neish

The 1921 census was released yesterday on FMP, to view a record it costs £2.50 or £3.50 depending on what you want to view. I can fiddle some information from it without paying.

Annie E Neish, Annie Jones, George F Neish and 1 other were in the same household.

AEN was born 1894, Oswestry, Shropshire.
AJ was born 1859, Cheshire
GFN was born 1917, Birkenhead.

Hi again
Found the graves....thank you and an addition
Thomas Jones,Annie's father died 1919 aged 60.
Husband and father dying the same year.

Yes, buried in same grave.

I've managed to contact in the UK my cousin Annette who is Adelaide's daughter.
She has given me plenty to think about as well as sightings of more photos and documents.
She has told me that her mum remembered Annie Vanderwall funeral as being quite an elaborate affair with horse drawn carriage.
How common would that of been in 1933 and where do you think the best possible place to find anything in the newspaper about the funeral if there is anything.
Thanks again

You may find an obituary in the Birkenhead News, unlikely there's a report on the funeral unless she was a dignitary, celebrity or victim of crime. No doubt in the1930s there still would have been plenty of undertakers to offer that service who never had motorised vehicles. In the early 50s I still have memories of the milkman's horse and cart.

Birkenhead News only available online up to 1920.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/titles/birkenhead-news

Hi again
While searching the Cemetery records of section 15c grave 22 I have found an entry reading thus;
Buried March 21st 1940,Freda Lesley Muir,aged 4 months
4 Church Crescent ,Seacombe
Image 348 on microfilm.
I have no idea who this relates to or why.
Any ideas?
Cheers
Paul

Name: Freda L Muir
Registration Date: Oct 1939
[Nov 1939]
[Dec 1939]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Wallasey
Inferred County: Merseyside
Mother's Maiden Name: Kell
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 1390

Marriage,
John A Muir, Elsie Kell, Birkenhead, 1931

Elsie Kell related to Doris Kell.

Elsie and Doris are sisters, Birth registration, Elsie, 1912, Birkenhead, Doris, 1916, Birkenhead.

Mothers maiden name, Thomas.

Can you provide the link for Landican for Frederick D Vanderwall and curious if Annie Vanderwall, s mother Annie Jones is buried at Landican as I think Rake Lane would of been full

Landican records available on Family search stop, 1962.

Do you know when Annie Jones died?

Annie Jones was still alive in 1939 living at 12 Claughton Road with George Neish.
There are two possibilities.
First AJ died in 1940 and second 1946

Of all the Annie Jones that died around that time, the below is the only one with the correct age, born 1859.
JONES Annie age80 Birkenhead 8a 1215, December Quarter, 1939.

Just to add, though Annie is on the 1939 register, she may have died just after registration.

Hi again
Can't find where Annie senior is buried.
Would she of been buried in Landican by 1940?

.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1027092?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Hi again
Any idea where I could find old photos of Neptune street if any exist.

Photo's available at Birkenhead Library, you will have to email them and see how they can help, I luckily came across 3, there may be more.
BWD 379
BWD 380
BWD 381
page 138.

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/sites/def...irkenhead%20library%20-%20Feb%202020.pdf

Hi again
We've come across another name on the 1921census living with aAnnie senior and junior,George and Florence G Barton aged 20 working at Lever Bros.
We think Florence is Annie Neish,s( my nan)sisters daughter!

Could you cast an eye over please.
Ta

What other information is available for Florence G Barton, married, single, where born etc?

All I have is that she is the granddaughter listed on the 1921 census as the granddaughter of Annie senior.
1921census tells me she was 20 years old and born in Tranmere.
Can't see where their residing in 1921.
She was a factory worker at Lever Bros.

It's very likely the following birth,

Florence Gladys Barton Walsh, birth registered, September Quarter, 1901, Birkenhead, no mothers maiden name recorded.

Illegitimate child, no father present at birth registration, unmarried mother.

Wow
Could Florence's mother be Annie Jones daughter and be Annie Neish sister.... could Barton Walsh be the father's name.

Florence is according to the 1921census granddaughter of Annie senior.

Do you know if Annie senior had more than one daughter (Annie Neish)?
Do you know what happened to Florence.
We think she may have died in 1947?

Normally the registrations at the GRO, if no mothers maiden name is showing, the mothers name is the same as the baby's surname. I would say the mothers name is Walsh.
The following marriage must be of interest
Name William Commander
Sex Male
Age 22
Father's Name William Commander
Marriage Date 06 May 1922
Marriage Place St Peter, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Age (Formatted) 22y
Spouse's Name Florence Gladys Walsh Burton

Needs looking into further.

Thanks again

Slightly confused as I can't see the link between Annie senior declaration that Florence is her granddaughter

There's not enough information available online.
To find out Florence Gladys mothers name you will have to purchase the birth certificate from the GRO.
Don't forget an illegitimate granddaughter is still a granddaughter, so even knowing the mothers name may not help if she never married Annie's son for example. It's all a game of chance.

I'm having zero luck with trying to find Annie senior and her family on the 1900 census and the 1911 census.
She only appears on the 1921 census.
She was married to Thomas C Jones.
Both were born in abt 1859.
Annie E Jones born in 1894.
With recent findings there may be an older brother who may be the possible father of Florence.

How do you know his name was Thomas C Jones?

Could be just a coincidence, however worthy of further investigation.

1911 census,
25 Mersey St, Seacombe.

Thomas Jones 50, Bagilt, Coal Merchant.
Anne Jones 51
Anne Elizabeth Jones 13, born, Oswestry.
Edward Vickers 40
John Walsh 29, Birkenhead.

Thomas C Jones died in 1919 with confirmation of his name on buriel register and is in Rake Lane with Annie Vanderwall, George,Simon Neish.

The ages of the 1911 census don't quite match up and there is no son.

Annie Neish was always called Annie and this is confirmed by the copy of her death certificate stating her name and her age at death being 37 in 1933.

The name of Walsh showing here is strange.

There's no "C" in his name, burial records or death registration.

His occupation is needed from his daughters marriage certificate to Simon Neish.

Just checking out Thomas occupation from my relative.

Scenario could be Annie senior was previously married to a Walsh and who had a son John Walsh and the first husband died which allowed Annie senior remarried Thomas Jones and they had Annie my grandmother.
Then John Walsh could be Florence's father and her mothers surname was Burton hence both names on the 1921 census.

Thomas occupation in 1911 is a joiner.

Sorry,on Annie's,Simons wedding cert Thomas is a joiner.

Can't see anything conclusive for Thomas Jones, Joiner and family.

Hi again.
I've sighted various death certificates and I'm wondering if you could help with tracing Annie E Vanderwall nee Neish mother also called Annie Jones.
She has been present at all the deaths but I cannot find for certain where she is buried,year of death.
She was living in 12 Claughton Road in 1939.

Also,Simon Neish died of pneumonia in 1919.
Do you think he would of been in the military prior.
His occupation at death was a dock labourer.

His son,my uncle George Neish died in 1939 of pulmonary tuberculosis.
His death certificate states his occupation was moulder-boiler maker.
He was 22 at death.
Would that job require an apprenticeship and best guess His most likely work place?

George would have served an apprenticeship to become a Moulder Boilermaker, difficult to say where he most likely worked as there were many firms who made or repaired boilers.

I previously mentioned Annie Jones, death registered December 1939 aged 80, Birkenhead.
TB is highly infectious and it's possible she suffered along with George. You will have to purchase the death certificate to be sure. I can't find her burial online.

Can't find any military records for Simon Neish, whatever he was doing when he got married to Annie E will be on the marriage certificate

It's possible the Annie Jones who died December Qtr 1939 is buried at St Mary's cemetery, Birkenhead. The records are held at Birkenhead Library, they are on film and shouldn't be hard to find. look at research request, link.

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/find-library/birkenhead-central-library

Hi again

Looking into Simon Neish family.
Trying to find living relatives to source photographs.
Have you any information on his family

Out of respect for their privacy I don't get involved in tracing living relatives, hopefully they will see this and get in touch.

Hi Bert
Hope you're well.
Update as follows:
I have located the grave of my nan in Rake Lane Cemetery and have a picture.
I have also been intouch with the Neish family and I have been given a photograph of Simon Neish Annie's first husband.
Do you know anything about Annie's family.
I know her father was also buried in the grave in Rake Lane and died in 1919.
We think Annie E had a brother who may of been the father of Florence?
I know nothing about the Jones side of my family other than they originally came from Oswestry.
It seems a strange coincidence that my dad was registered in 1938 in Oswestry also.
Was that too early for evacuation prior to ww2.
My aunty Adelaide was also registered in Fflint I think in 1938.
My goal is to find photograph evidence of Annie E Jones.
Hope you can assist.

How do you know your dad was in Oswestry in 1938?
Evacuation of children was 1939.

It's very likely the father of Florence Gladys was Burton, even though she was registered at birth Florence Gladys Burton Walsh. on the GRO no mothers maiden name was recorded which means no father present. She later married William Commander as Burton and later registered 2 children, William Commander, 1922 and Charles Arthur Commander, 1926 using Burton as her maiden name. It doesn't appear she named her father at her marriage. The only way to find her mothers name is to purchase her birth certificate or a record of her baptism/christening if she had one.

Thank you.
How does that tie up with Florence being a granddaughter in the 1921 census if her father was a Burton?

I'm only suggesting it's very likely her fathers name was Burton with her using that name in later years. You need to purchase her birth certificate from the GRO to find her mothers name and other details, from that information it will help us to proceed. We still don't know Annie Jones (Grandmother) maiden name or if she was married more than once. Finding Florence Gladys mothers name may help with that.

Here is what used to happen, Florence Gladys mother went to register the birth alone, with no marriage certificate or child's father present she was unable to register the child using the father's surname. Some registrars prompted the mother to include the fathers surname into the forenames. The child would have to have a surname, in this case Walsh was used, the mothers name.

Other reasons surnames appear as forenames, they wanted to use ancestors names, grandparents surnames, etc which is very traditional in Scotland for example. So, Burton could be a relatives name though I do think it's the father.

Hi again
I'm looking to find more information on Annie's parents Anne and Thomas.
I know about Thomas death in 1919 and where he is buried and the probable death of Anne in 1939.
What I don't know or Ancestry can give me is when Thomas and Annie where married and did they have any further children other than Annie.
I would also like to find out Annie seniors maiden name.
Can you assist
Thank you

Far to many Thomas Jones married an Ann/Anne/ Annie in the suspected time period to even hazard a guess. Normally a maiden name is picked up from the children's birth certificates, there isn't a birth registered in Oswestry for Annie Elizabeth at the time to match her age at death.

As I suggested previously, you need to get Florence Gladys birth certificate in a hope it has clues to help you progress, it may not but unfortunately family history can be costly because all records are not online and sometimes you have to take a punt and hope it can lead you somewhere.

Thank you.
Have you the pages and index etc for Florence Gladys Burton Walsh as I will order her birth and death certificate from the GRO

Birth,
WALSH, FLORENCE GLADYS BARTON -
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 509

At this point I wouldn't bother with the death cert as it's unlikely to have information to help, save your pennies.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp

Can you please provide the details for me to obtain the birth and death certificates of Florence and her two children.
I always want to see the reason why they died young.
Thanks

COMMANDER, WILLIAM mmn,BURTON
GRO Reference: 1922 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 731
Not sure when William died, if he has.

Name: Florence G Commander
Death Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1902
Registration Date: Apr 1928
[May 1928]
[Jun 1928]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 627

Birth
Name: Charles A Commander
Registration Date: Jul 1926
[Aug 1926]
[Sep 1926]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Merseyside
Mother's Maiden Name: Burton
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 733

Death

Name: Charles A Commander
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1927
Registration Date: Jan 1927
[Feb 1927]
[Mar 1927]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 784

Hi
I've sighted the birth certificate of Florence.
No named father and her mothers name is Margaret Walsh
Florence's name is Florence Gladys Barton on the birth certificate.
Florence was born at 21 Fairfax Road Tranmere but her mother Margaret lived at number 15 Fairfax Road.

The 1901 census which was taken prior to the birth of Florence G has 21 Fairfax Rd unoccupied and the family below living at 15 Fairfax Rd.
James Atherton 37
Mary Atherton 37
James Atherton 15
Joseph Atherton 11
Agnes Atherton 9
Mary Atherton 6
Edith M Atherton 4
Alfred Atherton 8/12

There's no way of telling online if that family was still there when Florence G was born or who occupied 21 at that time, I'll look to see if there is any connection with the family. I suspect Margaret went to have her baby at 21 so she was in safe hands, with someone experienced in childbirth.

For Annie Jones to be the grandmother of Florence G she must be the mother of Margaret Walsh and therefore once had the surname Walsh.
The family below is where Margaret Walsh, mother of Florence G comes from. William Walsh married Ann Williams, 1878. Below are just some of the children they had, if you find the census forms you will get the complete family. The interesting part is Ann Williams was born to Rodger and Isabella Williams and her christening date was 24 April, 1859, it can't be just a coincidence that Annie Jones, 12 Claughton Rd, 1939 register gives that birth date. I suspect Ann/Annie Williams/Jones was born a sickly child and wasn't sure to live, parents used to have them christened as soon as. Further investigation is needed but I don't believe Thomas Jones and Ann Walsh married, can't find a marriage as yet.

William Walsh26Ann Walsh22Margaret Walsh2Isabella M. Walsh, John William Walsh.

Family in 1891 with transcription error,

William Welsh
37 Head
Ann Welsh 32 Wife,
Margaret Welsh
12 Daughter
Isabella M Welsh
10 Daughter
John W Welsh
9 Son
Frederick Welsh
7 Son
Charles Andres
24 Boarder

Wow.
Thank you
The Barton name that Florence had at birth is probably the father's name?
So Margaret would be my grandmothers half sister.
William Walsh was Annie seniors husband?
He died at some point and Thomas Jones and Annie Walsh became a couple but not married.
They only had one child,Annie my grandmother.

Barton or Burton is very likely the fathers name, I favour Burton as Florence used this in adult life, Barton could be a transcription error. William Walsh may have died or Annie just parted from him and lived with Thomas as man and wife, it could be William was still alive and Annie did not want to become a bigamist, hence no marriage found.
Margaret and Annie Elizabeth are very likely to be half sisters, however proof would be on the birth certificate of Annie E which appears not to be easy to find. I'm wondering because they never got married Annie E wasn't registered.

I don't think it would do any harm taking another look at the 1911 Wallasey family, Thomas Jones, Anne Jones, Anne Elizabeth Jones, John Walsh, Mersey St.

Good shout about the Wallasey family .
How is that done in terms of their details.
I will get certificates for them if you can provide details.
Your reference to Annie senior possibly being a sickly child is for what reason.
Annies senior parents Isabella and Rodger any more information?
Do we know how many of Annie seniors children survived?
The 1921 census mentioned Florence being a granddaughter but both parents deceased.
Any idea when Margaret died and does it suggest that the father of Florence was still around in some capacity because how would anyone know when the father died.
Granted,it would of been fairly easy to find out that her father had died I suggest.

The birth date on the 39 register and Baptism match, 24 April 1859. It's either Annie didn't know her birth date and accessed her christening records when younger and used that date as her birth date or as I suspect she was born and not expected to live and was baptised at the earliest opportunity, i.e. Home Baptism.
A Home or Private Baptism was carried out in the home and still recorded in the church records, some churches recorded this by putting a "P" in the column, not done with Annie.
Infant Mortality being what it was, the most important thing for the parents apart from the child's survival was the child being accepted in to the church.

Margaret's christening for further reference.
Name Margaret Walsh
Christening Date 16 Feb 1879
Christening Place Higher Bebington
Father's Name William Walsh
Mother's Name Annie Walsh

It's unlikely ever to find the fathers name or details. There isn't a death in Birkenhead or Cheshire between 1901 and 1921 for a Margaret Walsh that matches her birth year. There's also the possibility that Margaret married after the birth of Florence, so that needs to be considered.

The 1916 directory shows John William Jones, Joiner, at 11 Neptune St, this address is the same for Thomas Jones buried 1919, Rake Lane.

Paul, any idea who he is?

Mmm,
Don't know.
Maybe Thomas's brother?
Neptune Street and Jones surname seem to go hand in hand.
Thomas was also a joiner by trade according to Simon and Annie's wedding certificate.
Has he been mentioned on any census ?

John William Jones might be on 1921 census which I haven't got access to.

What was Annie's address on the marriage certificate?

When she married Simon,11 Neptune Street

A bit more fiddling with the 1921 census, Annie, Annie E, George F and Florence G were residing at 11 Neptune St. It seems number 11 had 2 other families recorded there.

Is that 2 families all up or two other with Annie etc making three

3 families. 11 Neptune St.

Schedule 338, Alfred U, Sylvia Annie, Sylvia Amy and 1 other
Schedule 339, George, Bessie Maud, Edward.
Schedule 340, Annie, etc.

Crazy, the 1911 census shows it only had 4 rooms.

It did.
I went there as a child with my dad to visit Dolly and DFV.
Just a regular terraced house!!!

I presume they where all living there and not boarders.

No way of knowing without opening it up.

The two witnesses at Simon and Annie's wedding where William Jones and Rose Minnie Jones.

The wedding certificate of Annie and my grandfather has Annie living at 227 Brook Street and my grandfather living at 229 Brook street.
This was 1.12.1929

Sorry 1923

Simon's death in 1919 has his residence 11 Neptune Street as does Annie E in 1933.

1911 census, 3 Ellis St, Seacombe

George Harley Jones 37, Bn, Bagilt North Wales, Joiner.
Elizabeth Ann Jones 40
John Harley Jones 17
Rose Minnie Jones 15
Elizabeth Ami Jones 11
Albert Edward Jones 8
Robert George Jones 6
Ferdierk Charles Jones 4/12

Parents of George Harley Jones, (Baptism), Enoch Jones and Anne Jones.

1881 Census, all born, Bagilt, Flintshire, North Wales,

Enoch Jones 56, Joiner
Ann Jones 48
Thomas Jones 21, Joiner
Margaret Jones 16
Robert William Jones 14
Mary Jones 11
George Bayley Jones 8, I think this should be Harley.

The above Thomas Jones I think is the Thomas Jones, Died 1919, 11 Neptune St.

This family is beginning to look more interesting, even though there are some discrepancies. Occupation of Coal Merchant rather than Joiner, people did change their occupation at times, so not concerned. Anne Elizabeth's age?

Thomas Jones 50 Bagilt Flintshire, Coal Merchant
Anne Jones 51 Bebington
Anne Elizabeth Jones 13 Oswestry
Edward Vickers 40 Hoylake
John Walsh 29 Birkenhead

1911 census, 25 Mersey St, Wallasey.

Annie's death in 1933
Age 37
Born 1896/1897
Not sure if the Mersey St Annie is quite right for age but it's close.

Thomas Jones died in 1919 so his death age is also very close to the Mersey St Thomas.

If Annie senior died after George in 1939 then the Mersey Street Annie is also looking promising.

We now know where the family originates and their history, the 1911 census is not that important as far as that goes, however, another way of looking at it, if the Mersey St family are not connected to the Neptune St family, who are they?
I've tried to make connections to other families and I can't. Annie E age could just be a simple mistake made when filling the form in.
What age has she give on her marriage certificate?

Just received Florence's death certificate.
TB again.
Died at 56 Church Road Tranmere 4.6.1928.
William her husband lived at 49 Livingstone Street.

56 Church Rd was Birkenhead Workhouse Infirmary, later St Catherine's Hospital.

Should mention they had a sanatorium, = TB

Annie's age when she married Simon according to the certificate was 22.

I believe this is the family in the 1901 census at Oswestry using Annie's maiden name, Williams, probably trying to stay under the radar after leaving William Walsh, compare with the census above.

Thomas Williams 41, Joiner, Flintshire
Anne Williams 41, Birkenhead
Margaret Williams 22, Birkenhead
Bella Williams 21, Birkenhead
John Williams 20, Birkenhead
Frederick Williams 18, Birkenhead
Ann E Williams 4, Oswestry.

This is the birth registration, the fact that the mothers maiden name is recorded is because she declared she is a married women or the father has attended, I believe Thomas Jones is using Annie's surname to avoid detection or avoid the embarrassment of just living together, at that period of time it was frowned upon and kept quiet.

WILLIAMS, ANNIE ELIZABETH mmn, WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 06A Page 624

I don't see any benefit in purchasing this certificate.

It's funny isn't it that according to Florence's birth certificate 1901 that her mothers name was Margaret Walsh but the same years census says Williams and she was pregnant with Florence or had just given birth.
The date of 1901census?
The two half sisters Margaret and Annie were both born when their parents were not married also.

The 1901 census was 31 March, Margaret had no say or any of the children in the information forwarded, the Head of the household is responsible for that.

Name: Annie Elizabeth Williams
Birth Date: 11 Sep 1897
Baptism Date: 1 Oct 1897
Baptism Place: Oswestry, Holy Trinity, Shropshire, England
Religion: Anglican

At what point did Annie become Jones.
Presumably Thomas and Annie married at some pint.

I'm not sure Thomas and Annie ever did marry, It seems to me she wasn't a widow and would have to become a bigamist to marry. I imagine she became Jones when she thought it was safe to do so. The problem with census forms and information on them, it only covers one day.
Margaret Walsh wasn't illegitimate, William Walsh was married to Ann Williams when she was born. Annie E could be classed as illegitimate because her parents don't appear to have been married at the time of her birth.

For legal paperwork for example Annie's marriage to Simon then the Jones surname was used as was the case with Florence's birth certificate as Margaret name of Walsh being used not Williams.

Did Annie you have to show a birth certificate at her wedding?
The move from Mersey Street to Neptune Street occured roughly?
The Jones who was mentioned as a joiner and at Neptune Street could he of been Thomas's son also from a previous relationship?

Interesting post on here from 2011 regarding 11 Neptune Street and the Humpries family.

There wasn't a legal requirement to show a birth certificate before a marriage, however had she given her correct age she would have been classed as a minor and would have had to have her fathers permission to marry. There's no way of knowing if her father approved or not.

The move from Mersey St to Neptune St between 1911 and 1919 or perhaps earlier if Annie E married Niesh from that address ?

John William Jones, Neptune St, possibly from a previous marriage, difficult to say exactly who he is.

Where?

Date of post [email protected] posted by Pamela 185 on Wirral Forums.
My wife found it by pure chance when searching Neptune Street

Ok found it, was aware of that family on the census.

Name: Isabella Mary Walsh, Spouse, William Jones
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 23
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1880
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1903
Marriage Place: Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Liverpool
Fathers,
Thomas Walsh, Joiner.
Robert Jones, Bootmaker.

The above is likely to be the witness at Annie Elizabeth's marriage. Note, Thomas Walsh, father. I've come across this on many occasions. Isabella not being a widow has to have a father with the same surname, it appears she doesn't want to recognise her real father and has used Thomas Jones first name and occupation. There isn't another Isabella Mary Walsh born anywhere 1880+/-2years.

Thanks Bert

Messed up one of the certificates.
William Commander b 1922 died around 1939.
Have you reference please.

Name: Age at Death (in years):
COMMANDER, WILLIAM 16
GRO Reference: 1939 M Quarter in ALED Volume 11B Page 431

Thanks Bert
Couple of queries.
1.Could William have left Annie senior rather than Annie leaving g him
2.Where William and Annie married and if yes when.
3.Is there any information on the rest of the Walsh family
4.How and why did Annie E get to be born in Oswestry

I think I owe it to Annie seniors memory to find out how she died and her resting place.
Could you provide references for her death.
Annie has been around for a lot of deaths in the family so it's right and fitting that I pursue all avenues to see who was there for Annie when she died.

1, Impossible to know.
2, 1878, St Andrews Church, Bebington.
3, There will be plenty if researched, William was the son of John Walsh and Anna Tobin, likely to have married in Ireland.
4, Family were living there, 1901 census is Oswestry.

Matches year of birth,

JONES, ANNIE 80
GRO Reference: 1939 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 1215

Thanks
Sorry,I wasn't specific.
The children of William and Annie that is Isabella Frederick John and Margaret.

Yes as you will see in the 1891 census with William and Annie and later in the 1901 census, Oswestry, with Thomas and Annie (Williams)

Have you a date of William and Annie's wedding as is there a divorce anywhere?

Not the exact day, church records not online.

Marriage
Name: William Walsh, Spouse, Ann Williams
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Wirral
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 560

Unlikely to be a divorce, unaffordable to most working class people in that time period.

1930 Directory.
227+229 Brook St, Mrs Harriet Shakeshaft, Shopkeeper.

Was Annie E living at 227 Brook St in 1923 prior to her marriage and do we know who was living in 11 Neptune Street

Neither of the above streets are complete in the 1923 directory, those numbers are not recorded.

Which register do I access to find out if the Walsh children had any children.

You need to find the marriages first, if any, and where they are on the 1911 census.

1911 census,
4 New Ferry Rd, New Ferry, Birkenhead.


Name Age
Robert Jones 63
Eliza Jones 52
William Jones 30, son.
Martha Jones 24
Hannah Jones 22
Elizabeth Jones 18
George Oswald Porritt 72
Joseph Burkey 24
Isabella Mary Jones 30, daughter in law
Florence Jones 6, granddaughter,

William Jones married to Isabella Mary, Florence, daughter.

Marriage,

Name: Frederick Walsh/Martha Ann Williams
Registration Year: 1909
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 1100

1911 census,
45 Moorland Rd, Birkenhead,
Frederick Walsh 26
Martha Walsh 26
Freda Walsh 1

WALSH, FREDA MAY, mmn, WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1909 S Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 522

John William Walsh and sister Margaret Walsh, I can't find conclusive proof either of them married or had children other than Florence Gladys we know about.

Thanks again.
I've sighted more certificates.
Annie senior died in 1939 less than a week after George and on Christmas Eve.
She had fallen and had caused internal complications.Cause of death according to the coroner was misadventure.
Charles A Commander died of pneumonia aged 6 months Death date 11 February 1927.He died at 56 Church Street. They were living at 10 Neptune Street

Can I obtain a copy of the coroner's report.

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/libraries...rvice/documents-we-hold/coroners-records

Did you mention that Annie senior was buried at Flaybrick?
Any idea where Margaret Isabella Florence and her children where buried

Florence, Flaybrick.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8924-P9Z?i=748&cat=1027117

Possible deaths,
Deaths Mar 1964
JONES, ISABELLA M 83 WIRRAL 10A 828
Deaths June 1963
Walsh, Margaret, 84, Birkenhead, 10a 34

Possibly buried at Landican cemetery, records stop online, 1962.

Annie snr is not at any of the cemeteries that are available online, possibly buried at St Mary's Birkenhead, records at Birkenhead Library as previously mentioned.

1921 census had Florence living with Annie senior as granddaughter as both her parents deceased?

That information was not recorded because she was over 15, she would have been recorded as single, only 15 and under had status of parents recorded, father or mother dead or both.

Why would Margaret not of had Florence living with her in 1921?
I know there are lots of scenarios for that situation.

The 1921 census was taken on June 19, 1921 and it recorded those who were at a property on that date. Florence for example may have been visiting her grandmother, Margaret may have lived there and was visiting elsewhere on that day.
A census is just a snapshot of one day.

I'm sure it is recorded on the 1921 census that Florence's parents were deceased.
I might be wrong though.

If you have paid to open the 1921, you should be able to view it again. There was no requirement to provide that information because of her age, however, if it was provided by mistake and is a true account, it will help find her mother.

Have you Thomas Jones death reference please.
How will I find out if Florence and Freda married and had children.
I will reach out to any of their off spring if still around.
Thank you.

Marriages Mar Qtr, 1938
Walsh Freda M, Roddick Edward E, Birkenhead 8a 889

Marriages Mar Qtr, 1938
Walsh Freda M, Roddick Edward E, Birkenhead 8a 889

To many Florence Jones marriages to be sure which one.

Death,
Jones Thomas, age 60 Birkenhead, 8a 522

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Year Church / Register Office Registers At
WALSH Freda May RODDICK Edward Elton 1938 Oxton, St Saviour Wirral

Children,

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1939 (
Roddick, Penelope A mmn,Walsh Birkenhead 8a 1009
Births Jun 1947 (
Roddick, Edward F mmn Walsh Birkenhead 10a 158

Thanks again.
There's no record of Thomas Jones having previously married b3fore he met Annie senior is there?

Name: Thomas Jones , Joiner,/Mary Jane Oldfield
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: 1860
Marriage Date: 25 Jul 1886
Marriage Place: Bagillt, Flintshire, Wales
Father, Enoch Jones, Joiner
Father, Richard Oldfield.

Is there any wartime record for Edward Elton Roddick

If he served the records will be at the National Archives, WW2 are not available online.
He survived the war, the 1939 register has him recorded as a Wholesale Fresh Meat Salesman and also noted as, Wallasey Fire Service, this may have been his roll during WW2.

Did Thomas and Mary have children.
I'm trying to find that information on the 1891 census but not showing anything

Why wasn't Annie senior buried at Rake Lane.
Her husband,daughter,grandson,son in law were buried there and bearing in mind George died and was buried within 2 weeks of Annie's death.
Then the infant was buried in 1940.

Annie may have requested burial elsewhere or cremation.

Can't find the census either, there were children born to the Jones/ Oldfield combination but difficult to say who they were and who their parents are.

1891,
George Henry Cade
55 Head
Mary Ann Cade
55 Wife
William Stephen Cade
49 Son
Alice Edith Oldfield, Holywell, Flintshire, Single.
29 Cousin
Mary Jane Jones 30 Cousin, Holywell, Flintshire. Married

Mary Jane living with sister Alice Edith, cousins to head of household.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/11819616:6598

1901,

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=24266046&usePUB=true
Mary Jane still declares she is married, still no sign of Thomas who we think is living elsewhere with Annie.

Hello Bert

Just a quick line to say a huge thank you for all your assistance and help in my journey to find my family.
It has been a roller-coaster of a ride tainted with sadness and tears but ultimately happiness as I have acquired a family I knew nothing about which I am so grateful for.
Your persistence and eye for detail has been a huge factor on my journey and I couldn't have done it without you.
I have reached journey's end in my search I think and have assembled my family tree which I will share with my children and my grandson.
It's because of my new found family that they are why they are.
Many thanks again and if I decide to delve any deeper I shall be in touch.
All the best
Paul

You're very welcome and good luck.

Hi again Bert
I do hope you're keeping well.

I've picked up again on certain aspects of my family history search.
I hope you can help.

I may of asked for Annie's seniors birth index already,but did you mention prior that she may not be registered as there may of been a possibility of her not surviving infancy?

Do you think she was ever registered for birth later in life with her maiden name of Williams or her married name of Walsh or even when she had taken the name of Jones?

Hello Paul, all is well.

Looked again and this birth reg is a good fit. Parents, Roger Williams married Isabella Roberts in Liverpool, 1846.

Ann/Annie was born 24 April 1859 and the below is a June Quarter registration, mothers maiden name, Roberts.

WILLIAMS, ANN, mmn,ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in WIRRAL Volume 08A Page 406

Thanks Bert
I've ordered birth cert for Ann senior.
We've had no luck in finding Annie seniors resting place.
We have been in touch with Flaybrick ,Landican and Rake Lane and Bebington but nothing.
Her death certificate states her name as Annie Jones although that isn't exactly true.
Is there a possibility that she may of been buried in the Walsh resting place?
Her children were still alive in 1939 and there may be a link there.
I'm grasping at straws a little as her inquest still stated she was Jones so I presume her burial record would of shown the same?
Probably asked this before but a copy of the inquest process.
It is ironic that Annie senior was not buried in Rake Lane with her husband,daughter,grandson,son in law when George her grandson was buried a week before Annie.
There was obviously room in the grave as the infant was buried in March 1940.
Is there a time when a grave cannot be reopened in relation to George's burial on the 18.12.39 and Annie's
death and inquest date being 29.12.39

I suspect Annie was buried as Jones, as previously mentioned St Mary's cemetery could be the place and records are held at Birkenhead Library, they are not online. I'm guessing, one reason Annie may not be in the family grave at Rake Lane, with George only buried a week before, Annies's casket may have been too near the top and not at the required depth? Perhaps when the grave had compacted down, more burials permitted.
Any inquest reports may be in the Birkenhead News or inquest record will be held at Wirral Archives

Thanks Bert
St Mary's in Wallasey?

Birkenhead.

Hi Bert
Obtained Ann seniors birth cert.
Born in Storeton 1.4.1859.
Roger Williams profession was a carter.
Roger could not write his name so it was a X for his mark.

Did Roger and Isabella have any more children.

1871 census,
Storeton Rd, Bebington.

Rodger Williams 45 Head
Isabella Williams
47 Wife
Thomas Williams
23 Son
George Williams
20 Son
Sarah Williams
16 Daughter
Ann Williams
12 Daughter
Samuel Williams
10 Son
Alice Williams
8 Daughter
Margaret Williams
5 Daughter

Wow
Do you know how many survived?

All the above children survived into adulthood and married. Further proof of the family connections is Samuel Williams married Ruth Cain, September 19th, 1886, Liverpool. Witnesses at that marriage were, William Walsh and Annie Walsh.

Annie snr grandparents were Roger Williams/Jane Phillips, married, 3 May 1824, Bebington, Cheshire.

How far does this go back!
I'm astounded.
Love it all.
Have you Roger and Jane's birth details?

When do records cease or begin?

It's almost 200 years of family

Hi Bert
Compiling a list of documents I may want to access;
Rodger and Isabella's death certificate.
Rodger and Jane's marriage certificate.
Rodger or Jane's birth certificates.

Can you provide references if possible.

https://www.familysearch.org/search...eSurname=phillips&q.surname=williams

Remember, Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages started in 1837, prior to that date records available are church records.

The below are possible death registrations.

Name: Rodger Williams
Age: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Death Registration Place: Wirral, Cheshire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Jun 1886
Inferred Death Place: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Volume: 8a
Page: 278


Name: Isabella Williams
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Wirral, Cheshire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1888
Inferred Death Place: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Volume: 8a
Page: 277

Looking g on family search.

Can't find the death dates of the 10 children of Rodger and Jane nor the children of Rodger and Isabella apart from Annie senior.

We have been in direct contact with Birkenhead Library re Ann's resting place.

Do you know anything about the St Mary's graves being moved from their original resting place to Landican in the late 1950s

Of the children of Roger and Jane and Roger and Isabella, you will first have to research if they married. If they did, they would have died and been buried under their married name.

The bodies were moved to Landican so the shipyard could build a Dry Dock around 1957. I've visited their resting place at Landican and it wasn't in good shape at that time, overgrown, etc.

https://stmarysbirkenhead.blogspot.com/

Loads of gravestones etc at Landican cemetery from St Mary's.

Hi Bert
Have you the link for Annie and Simon's church record for their wedding in 1916 at St Peter's Birkenhead.
Certificate states in the parish of St Peter's.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F32T-V14

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F32T-V14

Thanks
Unfortunately no image available

Thank you
When I've tried to download it tells me I don't have access?

Do you mean the link result?
save it or take a screen grab.

Bert
That response about the access was in relation to images of gravestones at Landican/St Mary's

Link was from digging deeper.

The link result for the parish records tells me no image available.

It's just an information board with a brief history.

Hi Bert
I've had a response from Birkenhead Library.
They have checked all cemeteries for a burial of Ann.
They have found nothing.
I have requested a copy of the coroner's report that might help.
She may of been cremated but the Library wasn't sure when cremations started being recorded.
It suggests that the records might not be accurate or she has been buried under another name.
Comming up a blank here.
We are due to visit the UK in September next year so a grave for Ann would be nice to visit and pay my respects.

Wirral archives are getting involved so fingers crossed.

Hi Bert
Do you have the address of Thomas and Annie Williams at the 1901 census.
I have the occupants but no address

Sorry....
How would I find Annie's denomination?

1 English Walks, Oswestry, Shropshire,

Anglican, Church of England,

Christened, Bebington Parish, probably, St Andrews.

Thank you
Annie senior may be buried in the church at Barnston.
We have received the inquest form from the coroner's.
Was it normal to have witnesses present?
We are still pursuing Landican.

Have you the link for Annie seniors and William Walsh wedding.
There may be a signature on the church record.

The move from Oswestry to Mersey Street would of been for work reasons I'm guessing?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DZZW-64K?i=100&cc=1614792

Possibly, hard to be certain.

If there were any witnesses, they would have been called and no doubt family could have been present.

The church record of Annie is fantastic.
At last a signature,something personal.

Would there be a record of her funeral at a church somewhere?

We are contacting Cheshire Archives as Wirral Archives can't help any more.

Landican is still on the radar for burial or cremation

I've never seen a record of a funeral only the burial or cremation records, some burial records include the undertakers name and grave purchaser. If a church has a graveyard, they may have held the records and may not be available in the archives, finding which church is the problem.

Where would be the best place to find Annie's signature.
The church record of her marriage to Simon was unavailable.
Would there be a christening record of George?

The best place to find Annie's signature is on the original marriage certificate not on a copy certificate which is hand copied by GRO staff. George's christening detail I put on here, 29 Dec, 2021, page 1, there is no image available.

I'm looking at Isabella Williams.
Born in Neston and I have her death date.
Do you know any more about her.
My wife is from Neston so interested to know any more.

A bit more information needed, my mind reading skills are not what they used to be.

Born abt 1823 and died 1888
64 when died.
Think her maiden name was Roberts.

Here she is.

Plenty of information available on Ancestry, Family search, for the above family, far too much to transfer to here.

Have you GRO references for Isabella Williams nee Roberts for birth a d death.

Her birth year of 1825 might be a church record?

Thanks

Name: Isabel Roberts
Gender: Female
Record Type: Christening (Baptism)
Baptism Date: 25 Jun 1824
Baptism Place: Neston, Cheshire, England
Residence Place: Neston, Cheshire, England
Father:
Thomas Roberts
Mother:
Margaret Roberts
Name: Isabella Williams
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Wirral, Cheshire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1888
Inferred Death Place: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Volume: 8a
Page: 277