Four main aims for renegotiation.

1 Economic governance: Securing an explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not disadvantaged. The UK wants safeguards that it will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts

2 Competitiveness: Setting a target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market

3 Immigration: Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits until they have been resident for four years.

4 Sovereignty: Allowing Britain to opt out from further political integration. Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation



To me, that doesn't go near enough to spelling out what it actually means and how we would benefit in the long term. These things can always be changed and developed upon again, as has happened over the years with the so called 'Common Market'.
Is that why Maggie kept banging on about buying British, to prevent the foreign firms from moving in and taking our British companies from under our noses ?

As someone said, if we stay in we really don't know where we are all heading, and it's the unknown which is the worrying factor. Particularly when it is being run by dictatorial methods, which will only increase as the years go by.


Interestingly, Mrs Merkel is now looking at changing the policy of deporting migrants back to their homeland, after the happenings of Cologne. Funny how changes can be made when wanted rather than needed ! Just goes to prove nothing is set in concrete in Europe, just depends on the mood of the moment, who it affects and then we all get dragged in the same direction for better for worse, for richer or poorer,in sickness and in health, until death us do part !

Any thoughts ?

I, having been a strong supporter of our membership, have changed my mind and will vote to leave.
I do not intend to enter into any discussion here as to why.

Just goes to show how much Germany is controlling (has taken over) Europe.

Don't forget that the Deutsch Mark has not been officially obliterated unlike most of the other European currencies. In 2011/12 they were even re-printing the Deutsch Mark.

Cameron has already got his deal, 3 out of the four no change on immigration he has had it since day one, he will announce those findings in due course, and laud it as a great victory for GB due to the success of all his campaining,I despair we are giving legal aid to illegals to fight deportation,British legal firms are taking actions against our armed forces, you couldnt make it up, and they wonder why they cant find enough recruits, we do have an enemy within, but its not the Trade Unions, nor the average British worker,

Our whole GOVT to me seems corrupt, I don't see how staying in benefits the "man on the street". What worries me is they will use scare tactics so those who don't look enough in to the situation will vote how they feel is safe which is naturally "Better the devil you know"

Hard to believe the Germans lost both World Wars, 71 years later and they are in prime position politically to rule Europe anyway. Crazy crazy world we live in.

There are many in the Government who will not be voting for staying in the EU. John Redwood being one of them. So what do they know, that we don't ?

[youtube]U3PP4bX1Fjo[/youtube]

same here ,i do not want to say why.

Will vote to Stay In. Not saying why

Not given enough facts and figures to have an informed opinion myself.
Where are the TV debates etc

If we come out, would it give gov enough powers (having a majority it has) to drasticly trample over workers rights and further their agendas?)

I can foresee the PM coming back waving a piece of paper telling us how well he's done in his negotiations.

eg

The phrase "peace for our time" was spoken on 30 September 1938 by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in his speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the Anglo-German Declaration.

The phrase echoed Benjamin Disraeli, who upon returning from the Congress of Berlin in 1878 stated "I have returned from Germany with peace for our time.

I also will be voting to leave

I am going to ask my Grandson what he would do if he were able to vote.This is about their future,people knocking on heavens door should do the same.When you look at our Monarchy, currency, closed borders and the big money laundrette in London, we have never really been in the EU.Lower the voting age to sixteen and no vote for people over whatever is the retirement age at the time of the referendum.The future belongs to them.

I can see Cameron getting just enough changes to top the balance even though it will be far from perfect.

Losing the veto would be a big step in our control of Europe. I can see me voting to stay in even though I'm strongly against the EEC - keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

We need to have clearer rules in this country what powers the government have without calling a referendum, its pathetic that we had a referendum for the common market which was quite a minor thing compared to the powers we have transferred to Europe since.

Out for me..

if we come out then no Government now, or in the future' will be able to hide behind EU rules and will answer to us, the voters, instead

really, most of them can't tie their own shoelaces let alone the idea of voting

I was watching a documentry the other night it included Neville Chamberlin waving the infamous piece of paper, the first thought that crossed my mind was Dave doing the same thing, waving a piece of meaningless paper not worth the wording written on it, but then this government has no grasp of reality.

Yep, I wouldn't consider to changing to a yes vote on promises, its got to be done and dusted so we know what we are getting.

I think Cameron will get "verbal agreements" in Feb and pull a referendum as soon as possible afterwards and as you say, we actually end up empty handed.

That will be the ones with missing limbs who we shovelled off to fight The Perpetual War.I respect the youth of today for putting up with us if nothing else.

It won't end yet, not whilst Israel are able to use foreign troops as cannon fodder for their own political vendettas.
It doesn't matter what Cameron comes back with on the agreements , we have to start delving into the foreseeable future ourselves with regard to the changing face of Europe.
If we think Europe is emerging as a superpower, who will be leading the central government ? Germany, of course. If we are part of it we have to follow them. If they decide to go to war, we do too. Will they demand how many migrants we take ? Of course they will, there will be no such thing as choice.
Maybe there are too many superpowers and to be part of one is really tempting fate. Some twisted mind like Hitler to be obeyed !! Too big with too many different cultures for us to work eternally for the same ideology, successfully. Do any of us feel we have an affinity with any other EU country ? Artificial bonding is something that can't possibly work. You all know how Merkel gets her own way now and how she calls the tune....so it would only get worse. Brussels would control our tax,pensions and our bank accounts would be scrutinized. Just like our energy companies,and insurance companies have been sold out to foreign owners next stage will be massive take over of Estate Agents, Mortgage companies and rental companies. Anything that makes money in the financial sector will ultimately be utilised for the benefit of Europe as a whole.
UK Trade Unions might as well pack up if we do stay in. They will not be welcome in the long term.
Lets not forget the wonderful superpower USA too. So much of a superpower that they have no time to attend to their own people , all they do is intervene in everyone else affairs whether asked or not. Is that the type of Europe we want to be part of because that is how it will be. We shall be fighting someone else's wars until we all get blown up.

July 2015

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-next-superpower-united-states-europe-possible-13430

For the last 15 months we as a country have exported more outside of the EU than inside .I think they need us more than we need them

Agree with a lot of what you say granny, but as to the trade union part I think you've got it wrong, Europe has a strong socialist element, unlike here they are not fettered by dracion anti TU laws, look at the strikes in Calais,no mounted police, no anti union bobbies punching and kicking the protesters, look at the legislation to support workers that has come from the EU, research the pensions and retirement ages throughout the EU, we are the poor relatives taxed to the hilt, the right wing of this government want us out, so they can revert to what they see as this green and pleasant land (for some)for others it will be back to the gutter where these egotistical pr**ks believe we belong, bred to fight their wars and wipe their ar**s.

You look at the situation as it is now. Think ahead about 10/15 years and how things will change. Europe will not be dictated to by the meagre Trade Unions that manage to survive in this country.

I don't understand which side of the fence you are on. You criticize Cameron for possibly waving a piece of paper saying he's got it cut and dried for the YES vote and you criticize the right wing of the Government for proposing the NO vote.

Where does Corbyn stand on this and are you saying that the ETUC has not done the job is was meant to do?

The European Trade Union Confederation (ETUC) is a trade union organization which was established in 1973 to represent workers and their national affiliates at the European level.

The French don't need horses the police have guns and the strikers just set fire to everything and cause misery to their cousins across the channel, who they don't give a fook about. (That's us)

Unemployment rate in France 2015 over 10% UK, 5.4% . I assume you know that poverty and social exclusion in France is ongoing in the rural areas. Not widely known, (kept quiet) .

The present employment rules in this country which were set up in 2006 (I think) still apply. Have a look at the French Labour Laws and you will see a difference. Why did Labour enforce our current legislation and the Trade Unions didn't bat an eyelid ? e.g. having to work more than 6 hours to be entitled to a break during the course of the day. So a 6 hrs shift meant you didn't get a break at all. Same applies to 4.5 hrs in France, which seems fair. Why didn't we have that criteria incorporated, when we have such wonderful TU's for the workers ? Plus, when we have so many foreign owned companies now, whose rules will they follow ? They will be taken out of the hands of UK TU's because it will be an overall directive for all EU member state countries, due to the multinational companies providing employment in many different parts of the Europe and the World.

Anything beginning with HM will disappear. Europe won't entertain 'Her Majesties' anything, so Civil Servants , Inland Revenue will all be transferred, just like Wirral is going over to Liverpool, and where are the Unions ? Are they protecting Wirral jobs that are likely to come under the hammer? No, not a word,.... until it's too late. Then they'll blame the Government. There's more business for them on the Liverpool side !

Just my thoughts on how things will progress.

Going to do some housework now. Have a nice day

German finance minister proposes EU-wide petrol tax to pay for refugee crisis



As the German's encouraged them all, why don't they pay ? They didn't do their sums properly, did they ?
Not talking about the Syrian's , I believe they are mostly decent origin. It's all the other's who have jumped on the bandwagon and whose own countries are now refusing to have them returned.

Id pay a tax if it meant Germany look after them all.

Spot on there,what about Sweden,and other surrounding countries?

Yer, and Poland are beginning to get up my nose.

They won't accept migrants/refugees unless certain security guarantees are put in place. That's ok I suppose, but in a country the size of Germany and with only 38 million population , where as a few million of them live elsewhere in Europe, neither do they want UK to leave Europe. Probably because we house and employ or give benefits to approx. 1 million of their Polish people.

Good morning granny, just a few points on your comments re the Working Time regulations 1998, these regulations applied to all EEC members and are part of a basis for minimum requirements across the community, they came with a number of other regulations and directives around the same time 1998/99, contained within the Working Time Regulations there are exceptions one of which relates to collective and workforce agreements (these are the agreements made by the much maligned Trade Unions to give their members better terms and conditions)we had for example two 15 min breaks and threequarters of an hour dinner per 8 hours, most industries I knew about had around the same time off, so no they didnt restrict workers to just 20mins after six hours, but what they did do is protect young workers and others that didnt belong to Trade Unions from being exploited by greedy and unscruplous employers, speaking of greedy and unscruplous, the Tories would like to see most of these regulations(red tape) gone which would enable them to line their pockets and those of their financial backers even more, as to Europe we must look at the pluses as against the minus and vote accordingly.

Evening Casper

Employments Rights act 1996

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Rights_Act_1996

Working Time Regulations 1998

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free-legal-articles/working-time-regulations.html

Yes, you are correct. We did have 15 mins break in morning and 15mins in the afternoon, plus 1 hour for lunch.

You see the benefits from your viewpoint and is not the same as mine is.

Who took your kids to school before they went to work ? Who did your shopping in their lunch hour, or nipped home to let the dog out, who cooked your dinner and had a chair positioned for you to fall into afterwards ???? Who did you share your Sunday lunch with, how many weekends did you have at home to enjoy or relax ?

Get my point ? You went to work and had it all laid on. Women were forgotten, and the same still applies.It is only men who bat away on here protecting their Trade Union's because they think they are the only ones who ever did a days work.
Complete tripe ! You do not speak for the masses of women who had to take less hours and therefore less pay. Structured over a 7 day week, no two working days the same, or even consecutive , working shifts between 8am and 11pm , no official break, different eating habits on a daily basis according to working hours. Total confusion in the home as to what hours mum works on a particular day. No weekends completely off to spend time with the family. Work Bank Holidays, the list goes on because juggling was/is the name of the game. Then the authorities wonder why kids are out on the street without anyone supervising them. In many cases the authorities who are the employers of the women who should be at home with their kids. The kids are free to do what they want because the mums have to work weekends.

UK contribution to Europe was Tourism and Service industries. Hence the amount of women employed in that environment. Not on the shop floor at Vauxhalls with great big bonuses. Where the same people have an awful lot to say about other industries getting bonuses.

Whilst the men who have their Mon to Friday hard graft, keep their traditional cooked breakfast whilst they read the Red Post and realise how f..ing good life is and how damn good the T.U's have been to THEM. Oh yes, and then the kids who get into a bit of trouble are called 'scumbags' by the likes of those who seem to think they are better !!!!! The fact is, their mum's are probably trying to keep a job to make their lives better, but work life balance can be oh so difficult and virtually impossible, if no one wants to budge an inch, help, swap or even understand !

Whoa whoa granny were has all this come from! my response was purely to point out that the Working Time Regulations did not impose any strict regime as regards breaks, it was not a criticism nor a boast just fact,I have seen a lot of comments in various posts on here condemning trade unions mostly from people that feel they were let down by their respective union, thats par for the course its human nature if they dont get what they want or expect,unions are only as good as the membership and support within them.

I take your point on a womans role in society and in the home and thankfully things are begining to change for the better,nearly gone are the old days of men in the pub and women in the kitchen and men are taking on a greater role in the home and sharing more responsibility with the kids, as to their role in the workplace you only need to look back in history the Brynt and May matchgirls, the Fords Dagenham women but to name a few, something well achieved and to be proud of.

Working Time Regulations ..and it still applies.

Basic Rights

The basic rights under the Working Time Regulations are as follows:


•Limit of an average of 48 hours per week which a worker may be required to work, however they can opt-out of this limit and work more if they want to.
•Limit of an average 8 hours work every 24 hours for night workers.
•Free health assessments for night workers.
•11 hours rest in every 24 hours.
•A minimum of one day off per week.
•Rest break during working hours if the working day is longer than 6 hours.
•A minimum of 28 days paid leave per year, :

Casper.. I was not talking about the little match girls nor Fords women. I was talking about the women who work in service industries. Bars, and restaurants, leisure centres and swimming pools, hotels and bowling alleys ,airports and railway stations, receptionists and supermarkets. Gone are the structured working days for them and probably a fair few without husbands at home to help care for the kids. You are coming from an old fashioned perspective Casper. Things changed a lot between 2000 and 2010 , I worked through it and had to accommodate the changes, but the Unions never came near or supported even when asked by their own Union members. 'Fobbed Off' would be a good expression . The Reps were pathetic and didn't have a clue about anything. But that's what happens when Union Reps want to raise their profile and have a week away playing golf in Portugal with their classmates ! It could come under 'Special concessions' !

11 hours rest in 24hrs means e.g.that a person can finish work at 9pm one night and have to be back in again by 8am the next morning. That is how it is worked now, and if another staff member is sick, then be prepared to do a double shift. Only classed as additional hours so not overtime until the hours exceed the average working week. Which doesn't happen ! No pension paid on additional hours only contractual. No extra holidays only contractual.

Yes, you are right Casper, I was pretty hissed off yesterday, and not much better today. On such occasions nobody knows what will come forth, not even myself. But... every word is sincere on behalf of those who serve meals in restaurants on Christmas Day for example, to those who climbed the ladder of sweet success and left the 'plebs' behind. Nothing changes, we might think our lives have improved subject to TU's influences but it's a few more rungs up the ladder that have been accessed, to put people on a different level enabling them to take advantage of the employees of the service industries who get treated like garbage on minimum wage.

Still love you ...... and if you think staying with the EU will be beneficial, think again. All rules change accordingly.
Have a look at this....it could be an interesting book to read.

http://www.reject-the-eu.co.uk/

For almost three-quarters of a century, the world has been told that WWII was caused by a psychopath, Adolf Hitler, and his entourage of racist hooligans, the Nazis. The facts are, however, that WWII was a conquest war conducted on behalf of the Chemical, Oil and Drug Cartel with the goal of controlling the multi-trillion dollar global markets in the newly-emerging fields of patented chemical products.

Official documents from the U.S. Congress and the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals unequivocally show that WWII was not only prepared, but also logistically and technically facilitated by the largest and most notorious oil and drug cartel at that time, namely, the German IG Farben cartel, composed of Bayer, BASF, Hoechst and other chemical companies. The summary of the indictment from Nuremberg proves that without IG Farben, WWII could not have taken place.

You will also learn in this book that WWI, the second largest tragedy of the twentieth century, was actually the first attempt at world conquest by these corporate interests. Moreover, after both these military attempts to subjugate Europe and the world had failed, the Oil and Drug Cartel invested in a third attempt: the economic and political conquest of Europe by means of the ‘Brussels EU’.

There is nothing in law that covers overtime other than it must meet minimum wage requirements, everything else is at managements discretion in the employment contract (for those lucky enough to get a proper contract). There are some companies that pay overtime at less than the day-rate.

The UK retained the right to opt-out of some parts of the working time regulations (unlike other European countries), yet another indication that UK workers can be treated more like slaves.

Too many people that became union officials saw it as a career enhancement, if they helped the management screw the workforce they believed this would do their promotion prospects some good. Fortunately most management saw these people as untrustworthy so while the management gained, the union officials didn't get their anticipated promotion, a small bit of retribution.

I'm watching with interest how the oil "dollar" pans out, a number of countries are colluding in using other currencies for oil - including the Euro (or even potentially the Deutsche Mark!). America won't be happy!!!

There is a debate on ITV this evening at 10.45pm
Should the Northwest vote yes we want out .....or no we stay.

Morning granny, I had a quick read through the reject the EU link, very interesting reading, I found it to be a bit fanciful and misleading, the following paragraph from it is fact:

Official documents from the US Congress and the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals unequivocally show that WWII was not only prepared, but also logistically and technically facilitated by the largest and most notorious oil and drug cartel at that time, namely, the German IG Farben cartel, composed of Bayer,BASF,Hoechst and other chemical companies.
The summary of the indictment from Nuremburg proves that without IG Farben, WWII could not have taken place.

The thread intrigued me to have a quick look into some of the claims made in the book, so I looked up the official documents made by the Americans at Nuremburg, I came to the conclusion that his book is very cleverly woven around factual documents from the trial even down to some documents being lost or hidden to be used in a third world war.

Anyway thanks for the thread granny it was an interesting read, and I have decided to dig a bit deeper and have a proper read up on the facts.

ps, I still love you even though you shouted at me

Looks like Cameron has come back with nothing of note.

A temporary hold on in-work benefits which means they are encouraged to stay out of work and claim other benefits.

An insignificant change to child benefit rules for children abroad.

Nothing significant on Euro.

And a bunch of meaningless words on closer union.

Don't forget the promise of keeping our own currency.

It will all start to come out and be dissected, but not for one moment can I imagine that Europe have given us what looks to be 'cart blanche' agreement on most of the issues in question. It's just not them.

Therefore, I'm quite sure more will come forth and there will be clauses that can change things at a given time if needs be. Bet your bottom dollar on that.

What worries me is what he has agreed to give away, that information won't be declared.

Absolutely no substance to dissect on what he has agreed, its a load of flannel.

What is the EU and how does it work ?

This is worth looking at as many of us are not even knowledgeable of this information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgjwtyc

I still think we would be better out...

totally agree cools.David Cameron looked stressed out yesterday.wonder if he will get anywhere with his speeches

Yes Snowy he did look stressed but got to give him credit he has worked hard to get any concessions but I don't think staying in will do us much good.

How the EU began:

The European Union grew out of a desire for peace in a war-torn and divided continent. Five years after World War II ended, France and Germany came up with a plan to ensure their two countries would never go to war against each other again. The result was a deal signed by six nations to pool their coal and steel resources in 1950.


Interesting about the coal and steel. The benefits, tax and everything else will eventually be 'pooled' in my opinion.
No wonder the miners were not heard ! Once we joined in 1973, we were part of the same. Wheels within wheels that were kept quiet.

Did you see Angela Merkel?She looked on edge lol.

Well I think the EU need us more than we need them, think they were all worried and still are we will pull out. These benefits make me mad allowing family allowance etc to send home to all these Eastern Europeans who rubbing their hands with glee. Let's face it what would we get in benefits if we want to these countries?

We need to also remember that Mrs Merkel will be voted out at some point in the near future. All things would change again. It's a structured path to EU domination for all members. This picture makes me laugh. As if she was on the side of the Greeks when they had their troubles and this pic taken this week would look as if she is snuggling up to the Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras . After all she put them through. Now whispering behind someone else's back.

Some people are worrying about whether we will be able to enter the Eurovision song contest. Pretty much puts us on a par with US and them voting for Donald Trump.

I hope she clean up the mess she has made of Germany,Sweden and other surrounding Countries Granny.
I would hate to have her job at this moment.

The Eurovision Song Contest , something I personally hate..there again they made sure we didn't win..

If we import more from the EU than we export, have all our fish grabbed from us, have to succumb to every ruling from the EU or get fined millions, get told what to do by people who have never been voted in (anywhere) and on top of that have to send taxes which we have paid in to keep Europeans' offspring in the manner to which they have become now accustomed then who is going to dip out if we leave?
Oh and we have to let them come over here and take jobs away from Brits, fact.

He got no concessions worthy of the word and even less than the little he was asking for. A total sell-out, and I speak as a lifelong Conservative voter. I just hope I live long enough to vote Get Out.

Not quite, the UK created the beginnings of the EU when Winston Churchill called for the formation of the Council of Europe on the 19th September 1946 which was then created on the 5th May 1949 by the Treaty of London, this pre-dates the 1951 European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC which we were not a signatory to).

Its interesting how history often quotes the ECSC but not the Council of Europe which still exists today, although it is a separate entity to the the European Union but shares the same flag.

The EU and CoE are often confused, the European Courts of Human Rights is not an EU entity, it is part of the CoE

DD, you need to contact BBC. Tell them to put it right,... but they won't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgjwtyc#z2fscwx

So what do you think of Dave's efforts on Europe DD? has he delivered? will this deal make any difference? I am concerned that the issue is being overshadowed by the power struggle within the Tory party, Boris J comes across as an affable buffoon but I think he's a snake waiting to strike and show his ruthlessness, those within government that want out are the usual collection of self promoters spouting the usual jingoism and how we are the fifth richest country in the world (you wouldn't think so) and that the world should shudder when our name is mentioned, it just shows how far out of touch they are not just at home but within the world.
I am waiting for more information before committing but am leaning toward staying in at the moment.

Cameron has obtained nothing of note whatsoever.

The only leaning I have to staying in is that we have a veto which we would lose. I can't think of any other reason to stay in.

We should be doing a lot of PR work with America, throwing their favourite words of "democracy" and "independence" in their faces, the EU is the epitome of the opposite. We need America on our side and they may realise that if we leave and they are backing us, they actually end up with more clout over Europe.

I believe that any trade deals that uk would wish to engage in with China and India, have to go via Brussels. That concerns me, as if we vote 'no' does that mean what surviving businesses we have in this country will then be snatched up by the Chinese ?
We know Brussels (or Germany) want China out of the equation as they produce some things far more cheaply that Germany, for example solar panels which have been blocked.

I do think the main companies wanting the 'in' vote are obviously looking after their own interests as they have much already set up in Europe ,many are foreign owned now anyway or a conglomerate.

Do we take a risk and hope to regain trade with Australia and Canada to a far greater level, keep what industries we have left and build on them, or wait until we have become an empty shell, with nothing left to negotiate with at a later date and become subservient to Europe ? Anymore countries joining Europe will surely lead to greater financial input from all the EU countries and what is the point of paying to support every other nation in the block, when they can come here, take our jobs, homes and services ?

At the same time, I wouldn't want to be overrun by the Chinese!

It would be interesting to know, how much input Brussels has in the take over of businesses within this country. I can't find anything , and wonder if that's another something that has been kept quiet, for obvious reasons. If we stay in EU, we can be sure the NHS will go the same way as the French.

We already have a recent £42bn trade deal with China and a recent £9bn trade deal with India, why would any of the parties want to go through Europe?

Other countries don't like the idea of a large Europe for trade, it is the same problem as the suppliers have with the buying power of Tesco.

If we do come out of Europe, perhaps the government might suddenly realise the necessity of heavy industry in the country instead of destroying it.

Its a complete fallacy that the UK can be dependent solely on service industries, we need manufacturing it needs government support.

someone was explaining yesterday that every trade deal with China or India has to be sanctioned by Brussels.

I think we would find that the likes of heavy industry etc. and they way they have been run down in this country, has in fact had Brussels being instrumental in many such things. Fair distribution of industries across the 28 countries.

Labour Government (Blair) negotiated for the financial sector(banks)and service industries. Germany wanted the financial sector to be theirs initially.

Here is another example of how things operate. ::

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...2/France-bans-the-Silver-Cross-pram.html

For generations the well-proportioned frames and comfortable upholstering of Silver Cross prams have borne babies – including more than one Royal offspring – proudly aloft.


But there is one particular country where the pram that has served thousands of children so well is not welcome.


The French have refused to allow Silver Cross prams to be sold in their shops, in what the firm’s owner has described as a blatant example of European Union free trade rules being flouted.


Alan Halsall, who bought the company out of administration in 2002, said French trade officials had ruled that the prams did not meet their own safety requirements, despite being cleared for sale under EU rules across the rest of the continent.


As a result he was forced to ship back hundreds of Silver Cross prams the firm had distributed to 60 shops across France in anticipation of them being allowed to go on the market.

Sorry to go off topic but someone point me to the video of Corbin being barracked by the tories


click for story

It can hardly be called 'barracking' and it's pretty funny, even Corbyn had a smirk. He's not as 'Po faced ' as everyone is led to believe.

[youtube]HZPTZuwwHng[/youtube]

This was the first time I have laughed at the chumps tea party antics.Lets face it a sense of humour is an essential part of the kit for life.

Humour is indeed an essential part of life, however these are the people we trust to run our country, yes have a laugh by all means but this was over the top and ignorant, and before anybody jumps in about left or right, I would have also said the same if this had happened to Cameron and trust me I despise the man, we sit and watch the opening of parliament men in tights, robes the whole shebang for what? as Dusty said a chimps tea party, I think one of the greatest challenges of the future should be a complete overhaul of parliament and the voting system.

It is appalling bullish anamalistic behaviour, the microphones hardly pick up how much noise there is, it is literally deafening, speakers quite often can't hear themselves.

Numerous things are not done because of "shortage of parliamentary time" and this is how it is wasted.

They are the first to criticise entertainment and sports people when they show a bad example and yet this is the top level that runs our country.

How can people that vote for their MP not be shamed when they see their own MP behaving like this?

Just had a thought while watching the video of how it reminded me of Pleasure Island that featured in Disneys Pinochio a place were foulfellow and Gideon(now there's a coincidence)take the naughty boys, were they can misbehave smoke and drink and eat till their hearts content( sounds familiar) sadly this is were the comparisons end, they don't turn into donkeys(maybe chimps)and their noses dont grow when they tell porkies.

Isn't this the general pattern of behaviour these days, in every walk of life ? Make fun of someone else, or put another person down, to make themselves feel bigger and better.

Of course it is when those that should be setting a good example are doing exactly the opposite.

If I saw my MP behaving like that, they would get a pretty severe letter and if necessary I would start a campaign to ensure they wouldn't get selected again.

How can a teacher respond if a badly behaved child in the classroom says he's training to be an MP?

Very true granny,but these people are titled honorable, they have had the best education and the best start in life, should we not expect more from them? I get were you are coming from after watching Royal Navy school the other night, I cannot believe they were allowed to behave in that manner as recruits, I was away at sea in the MN from 16 till 24 then spent some time in the Army, the ethos was you helped each other if someone was stuck you helped them, a team effort, this didn't come through watching this programme, it was more like kindergarten than a Royal Navy training depot, standards have slipped drastically.

I do think we should expect more from them . Although I still find that video clip funny.

However, do you not think that it take about 10 years longer now for maturity to click in with the present generations. They are still behaving like university students at the age of 35, and the career politicians who come through the system, from all sides of the dispatch box , are far too young in many cases, still tied to mummy's apron strings and basically have not even had a cup of coffee with the people they are representing and don't know night from day. The up and coming 'young' politicians are even worse than the present lot, even though they have the 'gob' of a lifetime, and skills they have developed just like the bite of the vampire.
There is nothing more rude than those politicians who crash talk their way through any interview , over riding further questions or shouting down another in an attempt to drown their opponent out and thus trying to save themselves from complete embarrassment.

Go back a couple of notches, and ask who has trained them to behave like this, is it part of the University course, or skills attained once they get to Westminster ? Whichever way ,it is downright rude and counter productive to any member of the public who might actually like to hear what is being said.. Rachael Reeve being one Andy Burnham another amongst many others.

I agree on the maturity one,the system classes them at 18 as teenagers, 25 year olds are still classed as kids and in a lot of cases behave like them, most have no basic social skills,the words please and thank you have disappeared, it makes my day when driving if you give someone the right of way and they acknowledge you, or say thank you for holding a door open, the world instantly feels like a better and nicer place.

The system has gone against anyone under 25 in quite a despicable way, it should be their formative years where they progress into adults but now they are forming the wrong way as they are treated like children and they don't bother becoming adults.

Casper I said Chumps, It wasn't a typo either.I agree with everything You say, my comment was only intended for the "who are You"? as in, This was the first time I have laughed at.

Thanks for the link to the video.
Back to the EU referendum.

I'm surprised that we hear nothing from either side about anyone (or companies)having put feelers out about trade with countries not in the EU via companies or governments. Surely someone has tried to find what sort of deals we would get (maybe there have been secret meetings with various governments or companies outside the EU)if we came out of the EU.
There's been quite a bit of time since the PM started his quest for changes and I can't believe large companies haven't looked into what affect it will have on them if we vote out.
All we seem to hear is that nobody knows what will happen if we vote to come out

....and Derek, nobody really seems to know what will happen if we stay in either. So far we are only being fed what they want us to know. My thoughts are that they will make a meal of the few 'deals' and concentrate on those, but will evade the far wider picture that we are all wishing to know about. Therefore, are we ever about to get to the truth of how things will progress, one way or another ? The agreements on such few matters, are trivial in relation to the whole and final concept of the Federal Europe.

Some say we will have more control of immigration, some say we won't. In or out will have the same result. 'In' will see quotas 'dropped' on us from great heights, due to change in the rules, 'out' will see more illegals swimming across the channel. At least we would be able to send the illegals back home under our own governing. (I think)

The way things are going, i.e. Greece now refusing to attend summits,and the Schengen agreement is almost on it's arse, I should think by June, more EU eruptions will have rocked the merry band of brothers in their futuristic, unsinkable boat, and we will all be able to have an even better picture.
Rules however well secured at the time, can ALWAYS be changed as we now see in Europe.

One company director speaking the other day,said that he would like to stay in EU as where else would they get the money to develop 'driver-less' cars. ??? For goodness sake Let's think about feeding people first, those who can't afford a car or a bike.

on the question of trade with other country's. The EU export far more to US than we export to the EU. So does any one think for 1 minuet that the EU are not going to want to still sell there goods to us if { and I hope we do } leave the EU and stand on are own 2 feet.

All the relevant countries are members of the World Trade Organisation anyway.

Turns out the official immigration figures are wildly flawed ....



SOURCE

So far what I have heard are genuine reasons to leave, control our borders, make our own laws, decide our trade policy. On the stay in side all I hear is scaremongering, if we leave it could take 5-10 years to set up trade, jobs may be lost, we have a say if we stay in.

Ok it may take up to 10 years to sort out "some" trade deals however I am pretty sure the main players on both sides will want a deal sorted asap, jobs I think relate to trade so will even out. Having a say if we stay in, on QT last night it was said that Cameron has had 72 bills go through the EU and lost every single one so our say must really count.

Figures like £50 million a day to stay in, however we get some back (I want to know what we get back). I don't want it goes up and down, someone must know what we have paid in and want has been paid back so TELL US.

In short I keep hearing genuine reasons to leave and how scary it MAY be if we leave.

Has anyone heard of Jacqueline Foster ?

She's an MEP based in Bromborough. I have never heard of her before.
Reading up, I would like to quote a paragraph that indicates the European governing of the Mersey Tunnel Tolls and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Foster

Work as an MEP

In her first term she was a Member of the Industry committee and was the Conservative Spokesman on Transport & Tourism, where she specialised in the Aviation Industry. Foster tried to seek a ruling under European transport directives that the Mersey Tunnels Bill was illegal; the Bill allowed the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive to make regular increases in the tolls for the tunnels, and to spend the money on transport elsewhere in Merseyside. Other responsibilities included Maritime, Road and Rail.

Following 9/11 Foster acted as Rapporteur for the Regulation which introduced harmonised security rules at Airports across Europe. This included new rules which meant that airport staff be security screened when entering secure areas. The European Parliament agreed but the European Council of Ministers put off negotiations due to opposition by the governments of the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Germany. Nevertheless, the legislation went through. She supported moves to require airlines to compensate passengers 'bumped' from flights. In March 2003 she pointed out that the laws requiring children to wear seatbelts did not apply on school buses

We were talking about MEPs the other day, I doubt most people would know who their MEPs are - and even less would know that Wirral has no MEPs.

Paul Nuttal was the only one we could think of and this is mostly because of his surname and initial matching someone else we know.

But to respond - No, I didn't realise Jaqueline Foster was a local nor what she has been active with but I was aware of the five cases you mention.

...and whilst I'm at it. What's the talk about a possible 2nd referendum.

Martin Schultz has left the door open for a second referendum ??? Not about to take too much notice of him, not too many brains between his ears. 'President of the European Parliament' no A levels , and a book seller. How do they achieve such high positions ? These are the people telling us how we should live our lives..........absolutely mad !

Does this mean that if Brexit is the result, there could be a second vote (who will vote in that?) and if it's a 'stay in' result, there won't be a second referendum ?

Seems the Germans and Europe really DO want us, after all.

Confusing ?

I have been assuming that if we did vote out that a new agreement would be attempted and a second referendum would occur before the first was enacted.

I dread to think up what new scare stories they will dream up between the two referendums - most Greek mythology horrors will pale into insignificance.

If it should happen, I have my doubts that a second referendum would be put to the public vote.

Somehow, I feel this is a cunning move and the MEP's or similar will have the deciding vote.

Boris is rumoured not to want a second referendum. So it's something else that needs explaining.

If we do come out of Europe, will we also come out of the European song contest and stop embarrassing ourselves?

Of course not, Dilly ! If Russia are in it, I'm sure we will be able to continue embarrassing ourselves with great gusto. Unfortunately we have to ask why we would enter, as it's all so political and Terry Wogan always knew before the programme started, who would vote for who. There are blocks of countries that unite , always have done and always will do.

Oh well Granny if we are to stay in the European song contest I may have to reconsider my vote

Has anyone read the article about the plans to merge the British Army into an EU force?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/64...tary-merger-UK-stay-in-British-Army-UKIP

Good article. It's been on the cards for a while, but how much more will we be integrated ?

There's a whole lot more too, being kept quiet , to be released after the referendum. So what does that tell us ? I think it tells us that if it was in support of the 'YES' vote , we would be told ahead of the referendum.

They are building towards another massive war. Which counteracts some of the initial reasons for setting up the EEC in the first place. So it won't be country against country, it will be continent against continent. We can't get much bigger than that. Dynamite !!

Nobody I have spoken to is voting 'yes' and I think the powers that be are now getting a wee bit anxious.

You may like some of the articles on this site
http://www.theeuroprobe.org

Well well well, now this is a surprise........NOT!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...trying-hide-secret-report-PM-s-deal.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fits-work-EU-migrants-just-one-year.html

Ridiculous!
No wonder Poland aren't happy with the way things could go ! How many of their children are we feeding ?

Here's another bit of interest regarding lack of free trade....


UK entry into the EEC

Britain’s entry into the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973, and its evolution as a member state of the European Union (EU) has meant that for practical purposes, the United Kingdom cannot independently enter into negotiations with Commonwealth states to establish a free trade agreement. Instead, the EU, as a representative of all its members, negotiates collectively.


After reading that, out of interest, I looked up Cadbury and how that company progressed into the hands of various others. Now American owned and one of the biggest exporters of the UK. The hoops and hurdles to get to where was wanted are quite extraordinary. RBS 84% Government owned, funded the Kraft takeover !

"the Polish division, Cadbury-Wedel, was sold to Lotte of Korea. The European Commission made the sale a condition of the Kraft takeover. As part of the deal Kraft will keep the Cadbury, Hall's and other brands along with two plants in Skarbimierz. Lotte will take over the plant in Warsaw along with the E Wedel brand"

Mind blowing really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadbury

That may be true for a true FREE trade agreement, however there are many other sectional trade agreements that we seem to carry on negotiating otherwise it would contradict our membership of the WTO.

Following on : This is a cracker too !

Tony Blair Biography reveals ..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nspiracy-silence-immigration-debate.html

The more I read about politicians of all parties and the policies of those parties the more I despair for this country, between them they have brought this country to its knees, the only way out of this I can see is by proportional representation, or something more drastic, the excesses of one party domination need to be curbed right left, left right, the main concern should be for the good of the country not for a political party,I fear for future generations, and the continuing rise of Punch and Judy politics that now appear to be the norm.

Now we see 'the jungle' in Calais being broken up, oddly enough , started in the same week we were given a date for the referendum. These camps were set up in 2002, whilst migrants where being allowed to enter Britain willy nilly as mentioned on the link about Tony Blair, on the previous page..

It's a terrible thing, but for some reason any interviewed are playing the sympathy card.
We see news reports that constantly give us the hopelessness that the migrants are having to deal with. That in mind, they have been offered many places to camp, or to register, but they are all wanting to get to UK and by how many different ways they can try. They are in fact there, with the idea of breaking the laws and therefore why should they be getting the sympathy vote ?

Just Giving Crowdfund, for CAL AID, raised £ £155756.23 and the appeal was closed in October 2015. One wonders how they have spent all that money !

.......and at the same time, people here in the UK are ending up in refuse waggons , after sleeping in bins !!!

Everything (including that poor chap), is upside down.

If the conscription dodgers were removed from these groups of migrants and were helping to look after their own country instead of letting everyone else do it for them, the number of remaining migrants would be a lot more manageable.

I have no sympathy for them. They threaten our lorry drivers and they have the opportunity to register in France.

They also hurl rocks at police and members of various forces in countries they look towards for help. One sure way to upset those who have tried to help them.

On 11th February, it was announced that three NATO warships would be patrolling the seas to intercept the migrant crossing from Turkey to Greece and Islands, and return them to Turkey. This was to happen with immediate effect.

Maybe it was a cover to position NATO warships in the area for alternative reasons, because how is it that we are being told migrants are landing on the islands at the rate of 1700 per day now ?

I do wonder if we get correct information, whether we are being told a pack of lies or if there is another secret agenda.

We no longer hear of any migrants coming from Libya to Italy ,Malta or anywhere else. This must still be happening but I fear it is being hushed and probably the route that many of the residents in Calais have taken.

What is the EU doing ? Nothing by the looks of it. Oh, yes another meeting this week!

Everything is beginning to appear like a bad dream. That old expression 'He who hesitates is lost.' Pretty damn right too. Who wants to be part of an EU that can't make the right decisions for us all ,in times of disasters ?

Put simply, they are not helping themselves. I watched them attacking lorries with rocks and piece's of 2x4 the other night with no regard for the driver's safety. If they want people's help and sympathy they need to learn how to conduct themselves to gain a bit of respect. They come with too many demands,never satisfied with what is on offer.

It's a nightmare situation. I feel for the little kids when I watch the news they shouldn't be going through that, but what else can the countries do every bodies panicking. They're the unwanted people's and that includes us. Our country is on its knees allready schools full , Nhs stretched to capacity, housing in crisis . I still think as I say there must be a place where they should be taken even if they don't want to go and helped with shelter, food water the necessities and all the countries help with this and recolonise. There will be ones that will get away but I think if I were a mother with kids I would rather that than being tear gassed etc. There must be an island or land somewhere that could be used if only temporary until things on this planet get sorted if ever! I'm being naive I hear you all say but I can't think of any other solution they've got to go somewhere and no one wants them, it's terrible but it's the truth...

I think we all saw this was going to happen.It could have been dealt with last year.If the UE got there act together.

Whatever happened to UN Peacekeeping forces? Take the refugees back to Syria.
If there's a part of Syria that's relatively fight free near to the coast I'd suggest all the EU armies supply soldiers to such a force that could patrol that area, that would prevent arms in it and have a safe route for the supply of food and medicines etc.Given the tools etc with the help of the EU the inhabitants could start to rebuild POSSIBLY

The UN at the moment is pretty useless - the odd speech, useless meetings arranged. All talk no action.

Nice in theory Derek, but to all accounts we are being told that 70% of refugees are not actually asylum seekers in the true sense of the word but economical migrants, some of the latest TV footage shows some refugees being interviewed, basically they are saying if they had known that they would be held up at the border and not allowed through they wouldn't have come, others are saying they are going back, so on the face of things it would appear that things cant be that bad from whence they came, maybe a simpler solution would be to put up notices and drop leaflets to to tell those thinking of making the journey that all access through Europe has stopped and the rabbit hole has been blocked up, and for the ships to escort those attempting to cross back to their original departure point, at least it would stem the flow.

It is remarkable how, when Cameron was trying to negotiate deals with EU, the members states were not really too supportive on allowing much to change in our favour. We know this from the end result that Cameron brought back to us.

After various 'two finger's up' from some political figures of some countries, now we see them beginning to grovel. Using black mail, and yesterday, BMW (German again) the parent company of Rolls Royce , put out a warning of how things will be if we leave. A French Government minister today on the issues of border controls.

Now all I can say, is that EU and foreign companies should stay out of our decision making now and let us make our own minds up.

It would seem to be that they didn't much care originally if we left, but now they are all panicking. That's the way they operate and the games they play. Terribly naive to think we didn't understand that system , particularly after the way they dealt with Greece (and still are)and with that in mind, how on earth could we ever trust them with being the 'keepers' of all things ? Too few commanders for too many people more commanders begins to look like dictatorial with Nazi implications .

The EU is a political organisation, that will deepen integration and powers over the member sates in ever decreasing circle. Imagine a few more members joining, it will in eventually (20 yrs?) become untenable with no decision ever being agreed upon . Turkey will become a member, a huge Muslim country with completely different cultures and demands. We are the ones who will have to adapt because their culture is guided by the Qran. That means the decisions will all be made for us and your grandchildren, and we will NEVER know who is likely to sit in the 'hot' seat.. it could easily be an Imam.

We can be too trusting in a world of twisters and manipulators, liars and controllers.

Imagine anarchy taking off in Europe ? How on earth would they control the masses then ??? What difference would border controls make ? Just means we would have to show our passport when travelling from one country to another.

Working abroad, why not ? We always could , I did and so did many others. Does this mean that EU will tell us that e.g. Spain cannot employ people in the holiday season from UK, thus taking away the freedom of Spain's choice, when at the same time Germany open the country to 1 million migrants for working there.

It is with great interest, I listen to the original members of UK political parties and their opinions.

Even if it takes 10 years to put changes and get on our feet, what a trivial amount of time that is, in the whole concept of things. I'm up for another 10 yrs if it secures my grand children's future.

The stay in group have actually put up the White Flag when they issue all these scare stories they are saying they would not be able to run the country unless we stay in the EU

I wonder if its Cameron getting France and Germany to make these threats as we are more likely to believe them than if he just suggests those scenarios?

We are already being run by twisters manipulators, liars and controllers, its called a Conservative government, and if we vote to leave the EU we will be left at its mercy, and any benefits in legislation we have had from Europe to protect the worker will be swept away, by all accounts some of the biggest supporters of the out campaign are small businesses, well I wonder why that is? IDS has made statements to the effect that everything being said about leaving is rubbish and will never happen, well if he's wrong it wont affect him or his other buddies they will just stuff their pockets with their ill gotten gains and move on tho leach off somebody else.

In my view the EU is failing and I think the sooner we get out the better. If we leave I think down the line other countries would start to get dissatisfied. It might take years for any improvement if we did leave but as Granny said I want to see a decent future for my grandchild .i hate that we are so tied up and can't do what we need to do in this country being told this and being told that by these other countries who lets face it are only looking out for themselves .lets be a strong nation again and rule it ourselves.

I get were you are coming from cools,we all want the best for our grandkids, but my fear is that we will be out of the frying pan into the fire, I don't trust the Tories, those pushing for out are on the right wing of the party, IDS is spouting about us being a great nation, the fifth richest in the world, yet we have poverty, poor housing, with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, our armed forces are a shadow of what they were, we have virtually nil industry our country belongs to foreign investors, to be great and survive we need to be able to look after ourselves, yet we manufacture very very little and are reliant on import and export an Island with no Merchant navy as such with its closest market across the channel.

The way I see it is that we have some control over our own government, they do bow down to public opinion when it is strong enough, however we have very little control over European decisions, they just do what they like.

I should also mention that whether it makes sense or not, having the House of Lords has often worked in the public's favour on getting the government to see sense. I'm against the format of the House of Lords in principal but in practice I think we need it as an essential safety net.

IDS is a worry, he is pretty much a pure capitalist, you only have to look at the reality of America to see where this heads, while TV and films generally show the wealthy side of America, the reality is that the average American is a lot poorer than the average Brit and works a lot more hours.

I think on similar lines DD, and yes I can see us becoming like the US, as to the House of Lords, the Tories have already threatened to flood the house with their own supporters and with absolute power the opinions of the public wont matter, as far fetched as it may seem many covert organisations were set up to counter what was described as a possible threat to democracy in the 70's ( the Wilson government) these right wing organisations were allegedly to be set up to assist in case of civil unrest, one such organisation GB75 was raised by David Sterling the founder of the SAS and consisted of arms dealers, ex military personnel and funded by those with vested interests, other organisations like the RPOC or group 13 had similar aims.

I remember watching the programme about the undercover agents and GB75 all those years ago in the 1970's . They had loads of different units positioned all over the country, ready to act at a moments notice. It was bloody serious.
It wasn't anything to do with simply 'civil unrest', it was more to do with the threat to the country's democracy and it was set up the event of a Soviet invasion of the UK, during the cold war. Wilson was suspected of having dealings with the communists and Russian agents, and I also remember that his offices were searched and documents taken around the same time.
If you, Casper think that if there was a threat at the time to this country, which should have been overlooked and left to ride without having a defence mechanism in place, then I really don't know where your loyalties lie.
If , Casper, you are hard left, which would appear to be so, then do say because I am unsure as to which form of defence of our democracy you would prefer.
Why are you so upset about our armies being diminished but you support the EU to diminish them even more to combine EU forces to fight against whatever, when needed, but you didn't like the idea of undercover networks in the event of communism taking over the country ?
So far as IDS in concerned he and most of the other Tories that you so despise, will not be in their positions for too long, so that should not be part of the equation when voting in this referendum.

I always thought of GB75 a a thinly disguised attempt at setting up a military coup in this country. It would certainly be in keeping with the way David Stirling was heading, his initial work with the SAS was exemplary but then he just became a mercenary on a bigger and bigger scale.

The House of Lords works quite well because members have reached the peak of the their political career, they no longer have to be a career politician trying to impress people for the wrong reasons, they can become free thinkers. If Cameron thinks flooding the house with Tories will make it more compliant with a right wing parliament, he might be in for a shock.

Yes, but there was more than David Stirling's involvement, and a military coup would have been dreadful, but maybe not so dreadful as a communist take over. At least the possibility of regaining a democratic government again after the event, as happened in Greece after their military coup.

Does anyone remember Jack Jones TGWU ? He was said to be a communist and also guilty of attempting to bring Wilson's and Callaghan's government down. He was also said by one Oleg Gordievsky,a KGB colonel, to have sold secrets to Russia for over 40 years and believes he remained a traitor to this country until his death.

There is so much going on that we don't know.

Someone on News Night has just stated that Putin funds Marine le Pen's , French National Front Party. They are on the rise in France. Putin trying to get his foothold ?

Good morning granny,just to put things straight, I also believe in democracy, not the type that needs the muzzle of a gun or an unofficial force to get it into power because that is what GB 75 was an illegal organisation funded by people with a vested interest big business and members of the Tory party, you do realize that? It is even more ludicrous to suggest that if Wilson was a Soviet agent he would have got as far as being elected without suspicions being aroused, I used the words civil unrest because that is what they led people to believe they couldn't very well say the were planning a coup d'etat could they? that wouldn't be democratic would it? to overthrow an elected government by force, even some of their backers got the wind up and withdrew funding, anyway not a lot is known or published about such organisations.

Just a bit about my concerns for our armed forces, I have a great pride in them having once been a proud serving member, and feel saddened that they have been neglected and run down to such a low level, you speak of the EU it is not the EU asking for integration it is us to save money, don't forget our forces were based in Germany along with our NATO allies to face the threat of a Soviet invasion, so nothing new in that.

I do feel a bit let down that you felt it right to question my loyalties based on what you perceive me to be, based no doubt on my postings on here,I am not a commie a pinko nor a red I thought better of you than that as I have always enjoyed you posts and believe you have a great deal of experience and wisdom to offer on Wiki, I could suggest that you were far right and that you supported a coup against a democratically elected government based on what you had written but I don't for one minute believe that, the point I was making was about mistrust in a government that I believe based on present and past actions could if the circumstances arose use undemocratic means to stay in power.

Still love you granny

If you remember, the Labour Government was funded by the Trade Unions. We had Jack Jones and Arthur Scargill running a mock during the Heath years prior to Wilson being re-elected.
The country was on the verge of anarchy. I think your perception that high ranking Tories were about to fund operations of a coup is possibly not quite so true, rather the fact that the USA and CIA were very much involved. Wilson was checked out for decades , afterwards.

According to recent reports , it was all based on misinformation, but even so, there seems to have been a huge amount of misinformation. We shall maybe never know the truth but one does know that the communist element was at the fore of Unions with some of their members and leaders, and at the same time the same people did finance the Labour Party, so why shouldn't the Tories finance their own activities (if it should have been down to them)?

We also have to look all sorts of Soviet spies over a few decades. Do you remember it all ? They were turning up everywhere. John Vassal, Anthony Blunt, Philby, the Cambridge Spy Ring. Dead exciting to hear these stories coming across the 'wireless' and I dare say, many were pretty scared of what might have been.
No I can't agree that a Coup would have been the answer but we don't truly know what went on behind the scenes and never will, but something might well have had to happen to safe guard the country.

As an addition to my last post on Mr Putin and his funding of the French National Front party, the same man who stated this (and with that in mind)also said it is not a good time for the UK to leave the EU.
Those are the points and information which I feel are more inclined to form my final decision and as it stands, I don't feel democracy is likely to survive in the EU.

This is an interesting read: Sons of Soldiers

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...in%20harold%20wilson%20years&f=false

Love you too Casper. Kissy, kissy.

This is better....

We came close to losing our democracy in 1979

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/06/we-came-close-to-losing-our-democracy-in-1979/

Most interesting, Granny. To save myself from being too irritated, I ignore certain members whom I judge to be hard left;(there are three of them), but I occasionally peep at their posts.

Perhaps those making judgement should also read this

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009oct/10/jack-jones-christopher-andrew-mi5

But both the heavy industries Unions and the coal industry Unions have both proven to be 100% correct, the capitalist and globalisation policies of the Governments has destroyed them both.

Where is our coal industry?
Where is our steel industry?
Where are our shipbuilders?
Where are our utility companies?
Where are our power industries?

All of them have either gone, are a mere shadow of their former selves or are owned by foreign companies.

We can't survive as a country by shuffling paper round in circles which is what the majority of employment in this country does.

Link not working Casper.

copy the link and paste it into google search brings the article up.
As far as I'm concerned we're in an age of scare tactics and cover-ups by the media and politicians.

Cheers will do that when i get on my lappy.

Read this article now- thanks for posting.

Did you know?

'The Jack Jones Trust in collaboration with Hurricane Films are aiming to produce a film that celebrates the extraordinary life of one of the greatest British figures of the last century'.

I recieved the Documentary Funding Brochure today...

As a follow up:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/64...tary-merger-UK-stay-in-British-Army-UKIP

Maritime are taking part on the NATO exercises.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-maritime-personnel-to-take-part-in-winter-training-exercise

If such should happen, what then is to say that conscription would not be re-introduced for all 18yrs olds into National Service as we would know it or European Service as it could be named ?

The Telegraph says it is part of the recent Dave deal, or is it scaremongering?

My own opinion is it will never happen check this

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Nobody has denied it and it has been discussed numerous times, and it would be absolutely nothing to do with a Dave deal. Any Dave deals, would have to be put through Parliament voted for by all sides of the house, and the Lords for any deal to be done from this side of the channel. That is I believe democracy.
Alternatively, Europe can do much as it wishes, so long as things were originally drawn up and signed for in treaties, that were then put on the back boiler until a later date. We don't know what has been signed away over the years, we have never been privy to most of that. Maybe Blair did so as he is very much for uniting the forces of European countries. .

All I can hope is that people haven't got blinkers on, rather like the Germans who were led blindfolded .

We already have a European Anthem, a European flag; New Zealand are looking to change their flag now, as have some other British Colonies. Everything is pointing 'hook line and sinker ' into our rapid engulfment into Europe, after June 23 if it's a 'yes' vote.

I would rather stick with the friends we know like Australia, Canada, New Zealand , Fiji, and so many more of our loyal cousins.

If the majority is a 'yes' vote , I hope anyone who complains at the moment about the number of migrants in this country, never complains again at the numbers we shall be forced to take.

On another issue, if every member state took 20,000 migrants, that figure at the moment is a fair figure as it would total over half a million, and the 800,000 that Germany were prepared to take, would achieve the present supposed figure of 1,500,000000 (is that one and a half million ?) Getting carried away with the 0's .
Unfortunately , many of the other member sates won't budge, probably due to countries like Croatia, Bosnia ,Kosovo (breaking up of what was Yugoslavia) and their inter-ethnic(Muslim) wars of the 1990s' . Who can blame the countries in the same region for not wanting to de stable their own again, after such horrific times so recently. Why should Brussels force that situation on those eastern European member states ?

Also, do we really believe that the eastern European members are free from the communism they once had ruling them. I think not and like a cancer getting ready to creep across Europe along with too many other things right now. Look at Turkey, they are blackmailing their way into the EU, and with borders on Greece and Bulgaria, they are in a very powerful position, and with eventually such ferocity, Europe including Britain will end up being part of something too big to handle. The bigger one gets, the bigger the battle !! We can always take part, but we don't have to give our souls away.

Maybe I should not write a book, but I do have a crystal ball you know.

Eastern Europe, communism? That's news to me.

Wake up DD.

Soviet controlled eastern bloc countries were, Poland, East Germany, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Czech Republic, The Balkans: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Rep. of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia. How many are now EU member states ?

Now give me a rest , it's Mother's Day.

Maybe not at the moment, but you can bet your bottom dollar, it will be lurking in the shadows somewhere, just like the New Communist party of Great Britain is, in this country . The difference is, we have never had communism in this country but those other countries have , and at a guess ,with many sleeping supports !

Do you think those countries enjoyed being under Russian rule?

Happy mother's day

So you now agree !

and Thank you very much.

Try this link to telegraph article,

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/europe/eu/...-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

Still no working Casper.

Anyway, have a look at this. Just what's going on TODAY with Turkey, Greece, Romania, Albania, Cyprus, Macedonia, Hungary etc. We don't need any scare tactics from anyone in this country. This article gives more than enough to scare us and the comments by the Hungarian Prime Minister seems pretty accurate.

Angelina Jolie (UN special envoy) needs to shut up.

http://www.unsw-ymca.org.au/blog/nu...-loaded-soft-drinks#sthash.YZDRZNxf.dpbs

What's with you two and links lol

Casper's should be http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

I am assuming Granny has inside info that the Hungarian prime minister has a sweet tooth? Or perhaps its THIS?

Ha ha... sorry , not very good are we ? Yes, your link is the same as really but this is the one I intended.
Got a lot of worries right now, don't get cross.

http://news.yahoo.com/latest-austrian-leaders-urges-merkel-limit-migrants-102925762.html

Never fear, the EU set to scrap the 'tampon tax'

https://www.tenadirect.co.uk/men-products/

+ VAT ,DD.

Mr Cameron did say that if he didn't get a good deal for staying in the EU, he would cross over to the Brexit campaign (didn't he ?) All I can see is that he didn't really get a deal worth much anyway, but all that seems to have been overshadowed now.

Still nothing coming forth, as we sit and listen to more arguments and attempts of negotiations from EU, that in my eyes are pushing us all further and further apart.

Headache number one has to be Turkey. They have a long way to go before being fit for joining the EU and officials are using refugees as bargaining tools and are being allowed to do this by the rest of the member states.

For once, I am finding it difficult to use the right words to fully explain my viewpoint, but the whole affair is beginning to show as the result of evil, the use of evil, the conditions of evil and using people as bargaining tools has to be more than evil. Whoever came up with that plan, has not really moved on much further than 1939 .

The longer it goes on the longer it will take, and I can't help but to start seeing it all as a deliberate plan from day one. NOBODY has done anything for so long, buried heads in the sand, that has a ring of mystery now looming.

Neither do I believe Putin has tip toed into the night. What's the betting he's re -grouping ?

If we get deeper involvement with Turkey a corrupt nation with more than enough evil within, we will definitely all be in it together. Mrs Merkyl and friends are simply NOT powerful enough to control such masses, without force. So we are probably heading backwards.

What have we got to gain if we stay in EU, what have we got to gain if we leave ? Maybe we could become self sufficient again, and grow our own apples and grow hops again to make beer, (they were all destroyed in Kent in 1980's, for the benefit of EU trade) It gave masses of work to local people.

To this day, I believe that foot and mouth in this country was a deliberate act of intent in 2001 /2 as 10 new agricultural countries were waiting to join the EU. Two thousand cases and ten million animals slaughtered !! looking back seems completely off the richter scale. I also heard rumours that a massive order of protective clothing had been made by the then 'Defra' in the November before. Don't know if that is true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Double dealing Europe maybe ?

Making an equal share of the farming industry between nations would seem to be an obvious solution . No point in them joining if they can't build on what you have, and trade with others.

That is why the mines closed. It was all pre-arranged. We then imported poor quality Italian coal. It keeps the money going around, but like the miners, job loss, family breakdowns, so it happened to the farmers the same. No body could shout about that the same way, as it was down to environmental issues, or was it ?

No vibes of trust coming across the English Channel any longer. Too massive a challenge now with too many different cultures and I would wonder what would happen if all the Europeans decided to start wading across to the middle east . Maybe it will happen one day. One big 'happy' f' off world !

I was never in doubt that Cameron was anything but stay-in-Europe, he wants a well paid job out of them when he is no longer PM, the same as Blair did etc.

Cameron's posturing was not even to bluff Europe into giving him a better deal, it was to bluff the UK into thinking that he was trying hard, nobody in Europe took any notice whatsoever.

I would dispute that Turkey's accession into the EU is being supported by EU member states, most don't want them to join - but Germany does, they want maximum population on their side to continue their progress in the creation of the United States of Germany.

Putin has been a lot cleverer than many would believe, he has an election coming up. His foray into Syria has shown his strength (especially against the USA) and his retreat out has shown that he is not prepared to throw unlimited funds away - both are factors that the Russian people appreciate, whether they are smoke and mirrors and he is much more pally with the USA than it is made to appear is of question.

Europe has never been anything other than a battle, Germany to get its power and other countries to try and manipulate finance in their favour.

It is of note that although only two countries in Europe do not issue national id cards, there is no European id card on a voluntary or compulsory basis. There are many reasons for this and none of them are pretty but do demonstrate flaws in the EU concept.

I have now decided to vote out.

We may be slightly worse off but on balance I feel things will level out, companies will still trade.

We will be able to control our borders.

We will be responsible for our own laws.

We will be able to keep what is left of British culture.

We will still be able to holiday abroad (I never have by the way).

We will still be in the "safest corner of the world" leaving the EU doesn't move us closer to the Middle East.

The prospect of Turkey joining the EU reinforces my decision to vote for out.

Seconded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnrFddSJWsk