This thought came to me when I read about the likely future of The Archer's Pub being destined to become a care/residential home.
There are tons of residential homes around the area now, it seems far more than when I left for pastures new back in 1996.

Everyone always seems to be of the opinion that they want to live to a ripe old age, but what is the point if we end up in a home because we can't lead independent lives due to frailty or alzheimer's ?
Personally, I'd rather pop my clogs before I got to the stage where I couldn't do my own thing, with relative ease.

Also, IF we are all living much longer, then that can only mean a much higher retirement age will come in to play. I can't see how pensions could legitimately cope if we retire at 65-67 and then live an additional 25-30 years. The NHS too, considering the amount of demand it would be under would surely collapse?
I'm personally going to carry on smoking, drinking and eating all the wrong foods in the hope I leave this world before things get too bad for me

Problem is Elizabeth, is that (unless you top yourself) , you cant choose when you die, and if you neglect or abuse your shell, it may well end up that you cant breathe properly or walk for yourself or indeed do anything for yourself ........BUT you dont necessarily die and you cant manage on your own , so as its not pc to let someone rot uncared for in their own house, youd be taken into care at an earlier age than if youd practiced good healthcare , the latter meaning you could have perhaps stayed in your own home active for more years before you 'popped your cloggs'.
I do understand what youre saying though, I have a huge fear of going into a NH having spent loads of time visiting various people in them over the past few years.

Worked in N.H- the reality is sooo much differant than the Glossy Brochures display.

Alzheimers will take years in a care home. Slowly deteriorating.
Where can i sign up for a heart attack at 70 in my own bed?
No burden on my family. No tainted memories.

Aint that the truth! Ive seen some disgusing and upsetting sights.A lot of the time though its the fault of the management short staffing the place , and of course if carers were paid decent wages and felt valued, it could be a different story . I think when done well, NH carers job is HARD HARD HARD both physically and mentally. They should be far better trained and paid more accordingly IMHO.

pmsl.

I quite like the idea of saying what I like, when I like.....no edits. Alzeimers gives us that chance.....

you reminded me of this poem Rudebox.

When I Am Old.

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat that doesn't go, and doesn't suit me,
And I shall spend my pension
on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals,
and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I am tired,
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells,
And run my stick along the public railings,
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers in other people's gardens,
And learn to spit.
You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat,
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go,
Or only bread and pickle for a week,
And hoard pens and pencils and beer mats
and things in boxes.
But now we must have clothes that keep us dry,
And pay our rent and not swear in the street,
And set a good example for the children.
We will have friends to dinner and read the papers.
But maybe I ought to practise a little now?
So people who know me
are not too shocked and surprised,
When suddenly I am old
and start to wear purple!

Jenny Joseph

I'm here for GOOD time not a LONG time
And strongbow and kebabs are part of my 5 aday
Stuart jones
7/12/1966
Not long now

What's everyone's thoughts on assisted suicide ? I for one would like to think I had the option.

I think its wicked we DONT have it yet .Down right cruel in some cases. Yes there are dangers , but they could be minimized by proper regulation. What I cant understand is why the government are seemingly so against it. Theyre not bothered that the NHS's treatment lottery and drug /treatment rationing is unpopular and killing folk , yet they dont take up an option that if terminally ill/people with painful horrible chronic health problems were allowed to terminate their lives humanely , not only would it be popular( in my opinion), but it would do wonders for their coffers in so much as they would no longer be paying out so much in pensions/benefits/healthcare.

No doubt there would be those who would fight against it on religious grounds, but so what -we dont need democracy on this one because it wouldnt have to affect them, they could choose to linger on racked with pain if they so wished, having their backsides wiped by some stranger. Thats their right. They shouldnt have the right to force that on other people though.

Don't forget the poor old investors in private care homes who have to scrape a living off the income from those homes.

I agree with you on that one Dilly.Watch corrie next Monday night

PMSL love it.

No I can't bear to watch Haley's departure.

Lmao, you know whats going on then.Just make sure you have the tissues ready if you do decide to watch.

ive told my daughters, that im going to top myself when the time comes, im not having anyone wipe my arse.

I started thinking seriously about this several years ago. I won't go into a nursing home; I have the necessary substance waiting in the fridge which will give me a rapid and, most importantly, a peaceful death. I belong to an organisation: http://www.exitinternational.net/ which many people have found helpful. I pay £50 every two years to have access to the on-line handbook and the discussion forum, which gave me the information on the various methods of self deliverance.

Are we living too long? No
Do we want to live that long? No

As i've grown older and witnessed care homes and how so many are there to exist almost on autopilot i can understand the many views on not wanting to go into a care home. I'm not saying care homes are bad or wrong, but its like being given the final ticket, the last innings. Prolonging the inevitable.

It takes a loving family with lots of time on there hands to give any one in a care home a reason to live, or a reason to exist.

We are living longer its just the body isn't designed to last that long. I know of a good few older people whom say there a young mind in a old frame. And this frame is nackard.

The right to check out when enough is enough. I most certainly hope so.

Reading these posting I am glad that I am not in a care home or disabled. There is an undercurrent here that the life of an old person is of no value.Many very infirm old people are happy to carry on living they enjoy seeing their grandchildren, watching television and days out.It is fine to say that people have a choice whether to take their own life but the comments here would make an elderly person feel very guilty by daring to carry on living when many on this forum believe that they should be disposed off.
A civilised society recogonises the value of all.

I have seen no post suggesting old people should be disposed of, merely a choice for ones self.

I agree with you dilly, everyone must have a choice, a good quality of life is what i want.

Which could cause a stroke and leave you in a very bad way, maybe un-able to move or talk for the next 20 years.

I totally agree with assisted suicide. I do hope the day arrives during my lifetime when we are allowed to choose if we live or die. As someone else mentioned here, it's fine and dandy if you can live til a ripe old age providing the body isn't knackered.

I'm sure there's a lot of people who believe that life is sacrosanct no matter the quality, but I know a lot of elderly people who simply exist. They are not particularly happy with the way things are in their life, and they're waiting for the day they don't wake up. Again, not everybody feels that way and I'm not judging anyone.

I just wonder why nowadays we're constantly bombarded and told to eat 5 fruits a day, exercise and keep fit, don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat salt or sugar blah blah blah the list goes on and on IF at the end of it we end up in a nursing home? AND, on top of that, any savings we've been able to accumulate through our long and healthy lives will be syphoned away to pay for the home

Before I reach that point I would have hopefully have prepared a plan for my demise

I was talking to a Lady and she said she would walk out to Hilbre Island when its her turn. But what if she is un-able to walk?. She`s gone back to the drawing board for plan b.

Re Chris Kays post on joining this.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309407
This site shows a single bottle of Cyanide ! SCARY . From what Ive read, its not a nice way to die , nor quick. Is this the last part of several 'drugs' after you're sedated? I wonder why they chose to just show Cyanide? Doesnt instantly make you think they are empathic with potential clients lol.

You have linked to a different site. The Exit site I linked to does not "just show cyanide". The bottle is shown because there has been recently a renewed interest in it as a possible method of suicide. Misquoting on a subject as important as this is not appreciated.
The salts of cyanide do give a rapid death because the cyanide radical binds with the mitochondria in all the cells of the body and prevents oxygen exchange and leads rapidly to heart failure; time is on the order of a couple of minutes. Only two grams is needed, which is about enough to cover a penny. The problem with cyanide is that it is not always peaceful, which is one of the criteria which Exit attempts to assess. The criteria are:
Availability
Preparation
Undetectability
Speed
Safety (to others)
Storage
Cyanide is, in fact, not near the top of the list of available methods.
The favourite method is drinking a solution of 10-15 grams of pentobarbital sodium, previously marketed as Nembutal, which is a barbiturate and was popular sleeping medicine up until the development of benzodiazepines in the 1960's. It was very easy to take a fatal dose of a barbiturate; Marilyn Monroe was a victim. No presently available sleeping pill can provide a reliable death.
Pentobarbital sodium is still available for veterinary use in euthanasia,. It is also used at the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland where you can go if you are diagnosed with a fatal illness and drink it under medical supervision. Unlike Belgium, Switzerland does not allow active euthanasia but will provide facilities to allow you to take your own life. Unfortunately, it's expensive; about £8000.
Pentobarbital sodium is also used for lethal injection in those U.S. states where it is permitted. Also, a couple of states are allowing physician assisted suicide, under extremely stringent rules. They us the same product.
Pentobarbital sodium is unpleasant to drink as it is very bitter. People usually wash it down with some form of alcohol, which in fact potentiates its effect. The result is a falling asleep within 3-15 minutes and death a short time after. There are many videos of people at Dignitas taking it.
Nembutal is considered by Exit to be the "Gold Standard". It is available as the veterinary liquid from Mexico or as a powder from China. It costs about $400 for a reliably lethal quantity.
There's quite a lot of information available free on the Exit site I linked to, but you won't have access to the handbook or the forum without signing up.

Dont forget your life insurance policies, if you have one, wont pay up on suicide/assisted suicide. I watched my mum die a slow lingering death with parkinsons disease in a home over a few years when my dad could no longer care for her himself. So when my dad was getting a bit doddery i packed my job in to look after him--best decision ever made. Time came when through stroke and a broken vertebra i felt he would be bettered looked after in a home ---mercifully he passed after only a few months in there.

"yea though i walk through the shadow of the valley of death, thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff they comfort me"

Making that final decision, must be the hardest choice in the world. We will always have a sense of hope, even if it's about the next day being slightly better than the last.
People who consider that suicide is the best for them at a certain point in their lives (apart from those who are severely depressed for example) must be very strong in mind, because whatever ones beliefs, it's your last choice, with no return.
Doubt very much that I would be brave enough, therefore don't even consider it.

Thought provoking yet disturbing Topic this is....

A "friend" of mine is dying (going to have to be VERY careful how I word this), they have a chronic condition leaving them fighting for breath, even walking a few steps can leaving them gasping for air.

Their doctor told this person many years ago that they didn't have long left, but they are strong and they've fought it as the time wasn't right for them and they felt that they could carry on.

They know they will die this year, they know it will be in crippling agony where every breath is like the final gasp of a drowning man, and they don't want that, they don't want to feel like that and they don't want friends or family to see them like that.

They know how they are going to die, they told me last year, we've talked about it many times, not in any morose way but just as a general conversation, if you saw us chatting but couldn't hear the words you would just see two friends having a laugh. It is totally planned, it is their choice, their method and on a day of their choosing. They made sure they have Christmas and New Year out of the way so they won't bring unhappy memories for family left behind.

I'm going to miss my friend, but I understand why they are going to do it, the part I don't agree with is that because of our laws they have to do it alone.

My sympathy to your friend, you and all concerned Dr. No one should have to die in agony if it's not their choice to, we should have an alternative as long as we are sound of mind. I think the thoughts of everyone that reads you post will be with him.

If a carer needs more money to make them do their job of looking after somebody correctly, then unfortunately they are not the right person for the job. In other words a carer should care!

My sympathies too. We do have a choice of course but presently it means a trip abroad in order to accomplish it. This is absolutely crazy. Elizabeth is right, we seem to be living too long and of course the current trend of a reduction of the smoking fraternity has a lot to do with both longevity and costs imposed on the NHS and pension budgets.

If smokers generally do 'shuffle off' earlier, then the savings in their on-going NHS care, old age care and pension entitlements suddenly save the country a small fortune.

The fact that we are generally living longer and more non-smokers live very much longer is imposing a great deal on the already strained budgets that the chancellor has to deal with.

Going back to the main point, if other countries can manage assisted suicide (a rather nasty sounding name) then why can't we? The fact that the people who accompany family members to this overseas clinic have been arrested for aiding and abetting, have never, to my knowledge and I know of a few who have done it, been either charged or jailed for it, speaks volumes for a new law to make the end a little more comfortable and acceptable. Surely we can put in sufficient safeguards!

Personally, the fact that I have the means for a peaceful exit has one great benefit; it leaves me free to LIVE, without fear. For anyone who wants to know how peaceful death can be, here's a couple of videos. The first is a recent film made with Terry Pratchett who accompanied Peter Smedley (of the Smedley foods empire) to Dignitas in Switzerland. Peter had motor neurone disease. http://vimeo.com/45117071
The second is of a French woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_uEmdmSsY

[youtube]l-_uEmdmSsY[/youtube]

How people cope with facing what your friend faces Doc, is yet another remarkable ability we, as a human race, have. It is sad news indeed and my sympathies.

In all honesty, I am sure that all who wish for euthanasia or assisted suicide will not have to wait too long in this country. The Liverpool Pathway has been halted but will no doubt be back with additional criteria added for the benefit of all who get old. Like it or not.
What is 'old'? My mother at 89yrs and 10 months skipped up my garden at a party, sat on the grass, conversed with everyone, and got tiddly. She was dead two weeks later. Her time had come. No suffering.
Maybe it's not age we should be discussing but ill health, and that can start at any age, so once euthanasia is introduced, there could be more implications than we realise.

The old saying of 'Be careful what you wish for' springs to mind.

If euthanasia was made legal alongside assisted suicide, what would you think?
Not being funny, but if someone came to you this afternoon, just after you've had your cup of tea and cake, and said' come on old chap, it's your turn today', how would you think?
Peaceful it may be, although their choice of timing is not quite right, and maybe your mental state would not be right at that moment, but that doesn't matter because today is your day. Not when you choose, because they know best and will even assist you to do it yourself, if you so wish.

Well, Granny, euthanasia and assisted suicide are, as I'm sure you're aware, are totally different things. Euthanasia I'm totally against, which is why I'm suspicious about the situation in Belgium, where physician assisted suicide is legal: in other words, you can ask a doctor to inject you with something which will kill you. I know there are legal safeguards in place, but it still worries me. Contrast this with Switzerland where, if you go to Dignitas, all they can do is to hand you the drug; they can't help you to drink it. If you can't do that yourself, there's no point in going.
Referring back to the link I posted of the French woman, I can't watch that without weeping and with a great feeling of happiness for her.
I should have said, in the Smedley one, the first drink he is given, about 45 minutes before the Nembutal, is an anti-emetic which they give to reduce the risk of vomiting from the very bitter drink.

Why treat a human differently than you would a dog, or any other animal for that matter. If it's in pain, suffering and the situation is irretrievable you put it down painlessly out of pity. Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with some sort of solution. The snag is that there are too many "experts" who haven't been through the traumas but believe in some discredited "faith" or similar instead of looking at it dispassionately and coming up with a workable formula. Personally if I was beyond all help and only had pain and suffering to look forward to then I hope someone by then would've sorted out a solution. Religion should definitely not be used as an excuse to duck the issue.
My total sympathy with the Dr and his mate, it's a tough one.

Apologies Chris, no intention to mislead or take lightly AT ALL . I wastalking about the exit site with reference to the picture of the cyanide bottle being offputting on its own , but I inserted the link to illustrate opinions on the use of Cyanide Id been looking at , in the wrong place.

Im actually very grateful for the information in both your posts. I hadnt known much about EXIT , my reference to the single bottle of Cyanide was purely a reaction to an instant impression I thought it conveyed to casual 'passersby' to the site- Obviously though a wrong impression after reading your explanatory post .

Id like to make it clear again, Im in no way belittling or being disparaging about the EXIT site, or the topic in hand, so sorry for any misunderstandings .





I

Thanks, venice.

And that, Granny, would be the way I'm sure all of us would hope to go. Healthy, able and of sound mind with no sign of ill health or pain to make us miserable.

My point is, I don't understand why there is constant pressure from the media or politicians who interfere in our private lives and nudge us down the path of "live healthy and live longer" when, if at the end of all this healthy living there is no benefit? If by extending our life we are all as lucky as your mum was and are fit until the last moment, then yes the long lifespan is something to revel in. BUT, based on the amount of nursing homes that are popping up all over the country, I'm led to believe that the majority of those who do live longer than they would have if they had not followed a healthy regime, are not enjoying the benefits of longevity.

Yes Elizabeth, but the key thought for me , is that they might have had to enter the NH theyre not enjoying, a lot earlier in their lives if they hadnt tried to look after themselves.

I do hope everyone look after themselves it does pay off in the end.In all honesty we dont know when our day will come.In third world countries its to believe that no one younger than yourself should die.But it happens,reason to keep there parents who raised them to live longer.by looking after them as they did them.

Yes Elizabeth, we are being encouraged to be healthier, eat properly, take exercise etc. at the same time continue to enjoy the never ending programmes about cookery.(British Bake Off) Yummy!
At what age are we classed as being old? Probably,the minute we take retirement due to the fact we are considered to be no longer productive.
Many of them will not enjoy the riches of retirement, after leading a healthy life. In many cases the old have no families near to them nor are they even wanted to live with their families. Family life is very different to how it was. So, for convenience sake some poor folk who find life difficult on their own are shunted off to a care/residential home but not necessarily ready for it. Once in, the door closes, no more choice. Very tragic and heart breaking for many a son/daughter to make the decision.
Then there are now the poor unfortunates who are being left in miserable conditions due to their families not wanting to have to sell the house for paying residential home fees,which the family quite often consider to be their inheritance.
The old are manipulated according to who else wishes for what, nothing to do with the unfortunate 'old' person. All decisions are taken away. If at that point we still have some of our marbles left, then yes do what we must, but there is little time between choice and no choice.

Just my opinion. Not sure if I have answered what you meant, but beginning to ramble anyway

My grandad is 93, currently in the Cottage Hospital following a fall... His 'assesment' is coming up so my sister and I have been discussing the implications of this..

He is 'all there',without a doubt (does his Guardian crossword each day) and loves The Simpsons lol, recieved a Christmas card written in, as usual, beautiful Calligraphy.He has no 'personal care' needs. He deffo not ready for Nursing Care, even Residential Care, I would not think....

Maybe 'Extra Care Supported Living' or provision of Living Aids and 'Meals on Wheels' etc (me Grandad describes Meals on Wheels as 'seen more meat in a mouse-trap)'lol

Good info thanks for sharing.

It's quite extraordinary: one of the soaps is running a right to die thread and another is running a breast cancer thread. This thread was recently started and today I was diagnosed with lung cancer!

Sorry to hear that Chris,
Chin up and best of luck.

Thanks, Bert.

Sorry to hear your news Chris. Good luck for the future .

Sorry to hear your news , hope your treatment go,s well.

Not good news, Chris. Best wishes for the future.
Regards
Bri

scary news for you Chris but i have a feeling you wont give up without a fight! goodluck x

Really upset to hear that news Chris. Knowing you as I do, you crusty old fart, you'll be quite sanguine about it. Sh*t ! - stuck for words now. Take care.

Very sorry to hear your sad news Chris,stay away from that bottle in the fridge.

Not being funny, but if someone came to you this afternoon, just after you've had your cup of tea and cake, and said' come on old chap, it's your turn today', how would you think?
[/quote]

Well I am sure you are aware that it just doesn't happen like that. You make your own choice, nobody does it for you.

I am so very sorry Chris, no suitable words. Let the shock work through and then take each day. Treatment has much improved, please keep positive and you don't need your own medication yet.
Thinking of you!

(Bet you've never felt so popular)

Sad to hear that Chris. Fight the good fight me old mucker, I get the feeling sometimes that I'm just shuffling along the queue. At least these days you stand a better chance than of old. I doff my lid to you, good luck.

Best wishes Chris. Hang on in there.

Very sorry to read that Chris, my thoughts are with you.

So sorry to hear your bad news Chris.
I really don't know what to say to that except, while you can, try to carry on doing whatever gives you the most happiness and enjoyment as long as you can.

Chris,So sorry to hear this.My thoughts are with you xx

So sorry to hear this Chris. Stay strong.

Aw such nice words Derekdwc x

I want to thank everyone who has expressed sympathy.
Derek; that's exactly what I'm going to do.
I don't propose to have any treatment and when I reach the stage when I can no longer enjoy myself I shall avail myself of what I have put by in the fridge. I've no idea how this will progress, I may have a short time or many years; I just don't know, but I'm not going to let it get me down.
I'll probably go out in a blaze of glory, correcting everyone's spelling and grammar.
Thanks, all.
Cheers, Chris.

Chris, we luv ya realie :-)

Chris, So sorry to hear your sad news...keep doing exactly what you want to do, enjoy every minute of every day. That old saying "You only live once" is so wrong........You live every day so enjoy every day........You only die once !!
Best Wishes to you xx

LOL, thanks for that!

I look forward to seeing that (correcting everyone's spelling I meant, not seeing you go out blaze of glory or not)

I did actually Laugh Out Loud when I read that post Chris!!!

Good luck Chris with hammering the joys of life to the max . Quite right too . Glad to hear you have your future in your own hands .As you say, free to really live each day. Yay, go for it!

Oh dear, Chris very sorry to hear that news. Difficult to know if you are wise or unwise to refuse treatment. I guess it depends what stage the cancer is at. You can only take advice from the experts and make your mind up from there. I wish you well whatever direction you decide to go.

I had a CT scan last week and today I saw my consultant. We looked at the scan and it hasn't changed since the last one. Essentially this means that: a).they don't know what it really is and b).essentially, all bets are off. my consultant can give no prognosis but there is no indication that the disease is progressing, so I can just continue to live my normal life. This is much better than the previous diagnosis which was that I might be dead within a year. I don't feel any different so I shall just continue to live, but at least I have the comfort of knowing that at ant time in the future, if things get worse, I have the means of a peaceful exit waiting in the fridge. I hope to be around to annoy you all for some time to come. Once again I thank you all for your good wishes.
Finally, I have one bit of good news. I was up in Birkenhead with my son on Sunday and we went to the Williamson Art Gallery where they told me that the threat of closure had been lifted; responsibility has been transferred from the penny-pinching Council to National Museums who will keep it open, possibly administered from the Lady Lever in Port Sunlight. Great news. For any of you who haven't been recently, it's worth a visit.
Cheers, Chris.

Oh Chris, that's really very encouraging news. I am delighted for you and I can hear the spring in your step already. Great news!

Glad your doing ok Chris. Cheers

Great news chris but what is ant time? Grammar error per chance?

i bet you feel like some weight has been lifted so thats good news for you and your family x

Excellent news, Chris,

I thought the Art Gallery was a goner

That is very good news indeed Chris.

Great news indeed. Keep up the gud werk of anoying us

Glad to hear you are doing well.. take care..

Thanks for all your good wishes. I don't think the news will make me change the way I live; I will enjoy whatever time I have left, be it short or long.
Snowshoes, I suppose I'll have to excuse you not knowing about ant day, since you're now a foreigner (or maybe it was a typo). BTW, "perchance" is one word.

Thats is good news Chris.Am very happy for you xx

Great news Chris