wirral forums

Defend Democracy Protests

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Defend Democracy Protests - 31st Aug 2019 5:02pm

Being hugely played down by the BBC, here is a list of the #defenddemocray and #stopthecoup locations today. Those with "+" I have confirmed as happening before I gave up checking, huge crowds of people at all I checked.

+Bangor Clock Tower
Berlin Unter den Linden
Malaga, Spain - British Consulate
Newbury Market Place
Ledbury, High Street
Windsor, Eton Bridge
Usk, Maryport St
+Dundee City Square
Tonbridge Big Bridge
Aberystwyth Promenade, Constitution Hill End
+Bristol College Green
+Newcastle Monument
+Exeter Bedford Sq
+Nottingham Brian Clough Statue
+Sheffield Town Hall
+Manchester Cathedral Gardens
+York Saint Helen’s Square
+Leeds Art Gallery
+St George's Plateau Liverpool
+Durham Millenium Square
+Bournemouth Square
Newport IoW Saint Thomas' Square
+Birmingham Victoria Square
+Glasgow George Square
+Brighton The Level
+Swindon, 29B Wood St
Leamington Spa Pump Rooms
Worcester Cathedral Square
+Clitheroe
+Buxton, The Slopes
+Plymouth, Armada Way
Cambridge Guildhall
Darlington, High Row
Newbury Market Place
+Oxford Broad Street
Saffron Walden King Street
Aberdeen Castlegate
Kirkwall, Castle St
+Lancaster Town Hall
Kendal Town Hall
Chichester Market Cross
+Belfast City Hall
Stroud Subscription Rooms
Hitchin Market Place
+Edinburgh - foot of The Mound
Preston, Harris Museum
Inverness, Falcon Square
Doncaster Mansion House
Devizes Market Place
+Derby City Council Offices
Bishops Stortford Market Sq
Lerwick Market Cross
+Ipswich Cornhill
Cardiff Westgate St
Middlesborough Centre Square
+Downing Street, London (and many more London locations)
+Colwyn Bay Clock Tower
Haverfordwest Castle Sq
Hull, Queen Victoria Square
Bodmin, Mount Folly
+Cirencester Market Place
Winchester Butter Cross
Hereford Greyfriars Bridge
Lewes Cliffe Bridge
Romsey Palmerston Memorial
Northampton Cobbler's Statue
St Albans, The Clock Tower
Amsterdam Dam Square
King's Lynn High St
Riga, in front of the British Embassy
Perth High Street
Llandrindod Wells
Chippenham New Road
Wolverhampton Queen Square
Taunton, Market House
Southport Town Hall
Keswick, Market Sq
Cheltenham, The Promenade
Preston Flagmarket
Roscoff Ferry Embarkation Pier
+Lichfield Speakers Corner
+Kings Lynn
+Cardigan
+Shrewsbury
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 31st Aug 2019 6:37pm

unlike the Beeb to downplay any anti brexit stuff. seems a bit rich to me to call it defending democracy.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 31st Aug 2019 8:49pm

Originally Posted by fish5133
unlike the Beeb to downplay any anti brexit stuff. seems a bit rich to me to call it defending democracy.


Its the objection to Boris's use of closing down Parliament to avoid them voting. Although it is mostly remainers, there are a fair number of Brexiteers (including myself) are against Boris self-appointing himself as a dictator.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 1st Sep 2019 11:13pm


And Gordon Brown and Sturgeon didn't ?

So what you are saying , DD is that people don't want Boris , people don't want Brexit, people aren't now calling for a second referendum, but people are protesting for something and following that little upstart Owen Jones, and we know what he is.
I have to think that it's to bring the Government down. That is anything but democratic, when the Government is trying to act on behalf of the democratic vote of the people .

I tell you, there'll be a lot more on the streets if this is stopped and I have a feeling it won't be a pretty sight to witness. The originators and supporters out today won't be anywhere to be seen once it starts ! Have we not learnt any lessons from what has been going on in other parts of the world. Once society shows cracks and weakness the outsiders move in and considering there are a lot of Marxists, Leninists, and Trotsky's out there now.. it will be a lot worse than no bloody courgettes for Xmas dinner.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 1st Sep 2019 11:26pm



Plus the BBC outside reporters seldom work weekend's. Sky's the same. BBC did manage to report Lebanon/ Israel's spat today, used the same footage as Al Jazeera but ony half the story.
Yes, Hezbollah fired anti- tank missiles at an Israel site over the Lebanon border.. Israel retaliated, but BBC forgot to mention that Israel have made 4 attacks in the last week on Syria, Iraq and Lebanon, when 2 Hezbollah members were killed. So they were retaliating and BBC reported a slightly different version. But I don t remember BBC reporting any of the hundreds of attacks Israel have made on Syria in the last couple of years, or how the US and UK killed approx. 1700 civilians in Raqqa with their bombing raids . The list goes on, and on, and on, and on. Watch another channel.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 1st Sep 2019 11:41pm


Everything is so tiring now. Life is a misery and dragging us all down into different corners of the world wide issues that affect us all. Battles, battles and more battles, and we all get caught up in them thanks to politicians, activists, and anarchists.

I'm going to watch your post on mental health now DD< . Think I need it.

Down with Corbyn !

GO BORIS yipee
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 6:31am

Here here Granny....can’t bear to listen or watch Corbin!!!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 7:58am

No, I don’t think I said any of that @granny.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 8:11am

[quote=granny]
And Gordon Brown and Sturgeon didn't ?

So what you are saying , DD is that people don't want Boris , people don't want Brexit, people aren't now calling for a second referendum, but people are protesting for something and following that little upstart Owen Jones, and we know what he is.
I have to think that it's to bring the Government down. That is anything but democratic, when the Government is trying to act on behalf of the democratic vote of the people .

You speak of the democratic will of the people, did the majority vote for a no deal Brexit ? oh we dont know because nobody was informed or asked, so now we have BJ telling us that we will leave with no deal, one of his party states on the news this morning that no new proposals have been put forward following the talks the PM has been having and nothing has changed and still remain status quo, so someone is telling porkies, no surprise there then, we now have the night of the long knives were Tory moderates are being threatened, I don't know about Marxists, or Communists, it is beginning to feel more like another distasteful party led by a dictator you know the one who started smashing up restaurants with his gang.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 8:44am



'No Deal' had already been put on the table by the time of the 2017 General Election. The Tory manifesto said 'No deal. is better than a Bad Deal' .

. Barnier says today EU will only discuss changes to the 'backstop' after MP's accept the current Withdrawal Agreement ! So no change there.

Casper, do you think that is right that the backstop has to stand and as the same Withdrawal Agreement has been voted against 3 times is there any point in going over old ground, yet again ? . If so, you are voting against the Irish, if not, what should the next move be. Someone has got to make a decision and the facts are as they are, there are no negotiations going to be accepted by the EU.

These protestors should be knocking on Barnier's door. It seems to me far more likely the EU are the dictators.
Owen Jones is a trouble maker, and comes from a Communist and Trotsky background. He is connected to Militant, doesn't think Venezuela is far enough left, and has previously been an advisor to John Mcdonnell. He's 35 yrs old, and about to turn this country on it's head if allowed. Just the very moment he and cohorts have been manipulating and planning for long enough.

If you think Corbyn should win a General Election and become PM, then quite frankly, I'm flabbergasted ! Let's not forget all those Labour MP's will be off the front benches in a matter of hours, but the most important fact is that it will all be too late.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 9:09am



Just remembered, we now have Farage in the mix too. They did pretty well in the EU elections, which is another example of how the British public are thinking. NON DEAL !
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 9:10am

As a remainer I now just want the whole process over and done with.

The process is now at a stalemate, the EU won't renegotiate, so what's the point in delaying.

This opposition party group is yet another damp squib. They've had a meeting, will do more talking. And that's the problem - all talk, no action.

16 million voted to remain. Only a million recently bothered to sign an online petition protesting against proroguing parliament.

If they can't even be bothered to spend 20 seconds clicking a link, I can't see this national strike that's been bandied about working.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 10:42am

Exactly Gibbo, Thousands can demonstrate or turn out to save a football club, but not their country.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 11:45am

[quote=granny]

'

Casper, do you think that is right that the backstop has to stand and as the same Withdrawal Agreement has been voted against 3 times is there any point in going over old ground, yet again ? . If so, you are voting against the Irish, if not, what should the next move be. Someone has got to make a decision and the facts are as they are, there are no negotiations going to be accepted by the EU.

There are a lot of things I don't think are right granny, things quite frankly that should of been taken into account and given a lot of thought to before we even went ahead, Brexit was unplanned ill thought out, because no body in their wildest dreams believed we would vote to leave, a momentous decision taken on the turn of a coin, would you in all honesty make a life changing decision without careful consideration and all due diligence, yet that is what occurred, we not only leapt into it, we catapulted ourselves into it blindly, those that engineered it couldn't believe their luck, a few porkies here and there to help things on there way

Southern Ireland chose independence and remain in the EU, all other countries within the EU have borders, so you can see the problem, PIRA didnt mind hiding behind the border at one time, one foot in one foot out, horses for courses there I'am afraid.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 2:53pm

I love the way remainers keep stating the Brexiteers lied and totally ignore the much more common remainer's lies.

Dover and Calais bosses have repeatedly stated the delays will be minimal. Obviously it can purposely be manipulated to create queues but as it stands there is no need for queues in the event of Brexit.

WTO won't take long to finalise, we are just trying to push the boundaries at the moment. In any case we could copy our existing (EU) WTO document and tweak it to suite, nobody else has to agree with it provided it follows the basic rule that all countries are treated the same except where there are trade agreements in place.

The Irish border is an EU problem, Ireland and UK are part of the Belfast agreement which has not been rescinded, it was signed while both were members of the EU, the EU approved of it. If the EU want to force Ireland to pull out of the agreement then the EU has to negotiate it, neither Ireland nor the UK want to pull out nor renegotiate it.

There are far more countries outside the EU than in it, we are joining the normal and the way the most of the world operate.

The EU will negotiate, the UK will negotiate, the EU has always backed down when the cliff edge arrives.

The EU has more to risk than we have, Germany is teetering on an economic collapse, the Euro is highly unstable. "Hard" rules the EU have imposed in the past will suddenly have to change, something that was never done for the southern European countries who have got to be waiting for their chance of revenge.
Posted By: jimbob

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 6:43pm

You are right on all accounts, time to just get on with it.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 8:41pm

Originally Posted by casper
[quote=granny]

'

Casper, do you think that is right that the backstop has to stand and as the same Withdrawal Agreement has been voted against 3 times is there any point in going over old ground, yet again ? . If so, you are voting against the Irish, if not, what should the next move be. Someone has got to make a decision and the facts are as they are, there are no negotiations going to be accepted by the EU.

There are a lot of things I don't think are right granny, things quite frankly that should of been taken into account and given a lot of thought to before we even went ahead, Brexit was unplanned ill thought out, because no body in their wildest dreams believed we would vote to leave, a momentous decision taken on the turn of a coin, would you in all honesty make a life changing decision without careful consideration and all due diligence, yet that is what occurred, we not only leapt into it, we catapulted ourselves into it blindly, those that engineered it couldn't believe their luck, a few porkies here and there to help things on there way

Southern Ireland chose independence and remain in the EU, all other countries within the EU have borders, so you can see the problem, PIRA didnt mind hiding behind the border at one time, one foot in one foot out, horses for courses there I'am afraid.



To be honest ,Casper, long before the referendum was even spoken about, I had for long enough wished we could get out of the clutches of Europe. Over the years it was easy to see where things were heading, and I didn't like what was happening.
I'm not really sure why it is being banded around that we will have so many problems. All the ones raised so far seem to be purely hypothetical with regards to shortages and hold ups at ports. We have airplanes and we have other countries to get produce from. We already get fruit from Israel, rice from India, coffee and tea from somewhere else, banana for the west indies, etc. etc. etc. just that they won't have to go via the EU to make them more expensive. Although I think you might just be getting a bit bothered about the porridge from Scotland. Now that could be a problem !
Southern Ireland said NO in their first referendum in 2008, by quite a large majority, but were forced into another one in 2009. As were Denmark and another one. (can't remember) There have been loads of referendums in total in different countries over different things. We were never given one when it was promised , twice !
Now we could be forced into another, and I believe that is what the EU are hoping for.

@DD. Everything you say, I agree with.

£billions of trade agreements pending with Australia and New Zealand. South America also. We've got Panamax at Liverpool for the South American trade . Japan , Israel, African countries , all these places are lining up. We might not get flowers from Amsterdam, but we will be able to get them from Africa, where they have the market gardens already. Why not help them instead of keeping everything confined to the EU countries ?

It looks like an election could be in October. Well, if that's the case I suspect that the Brexit Party and Tory's will be uniting to see Brexit through and there definitely won't be another referendum then.

Just my views. Everyone is different.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 2nd Sep 2019 8:54pm



Here's one to read. Do we know where they are keeping the Catalonian prisoners and is this EU democracy ?


On 1st October 2017 2.3 million Catalans took part in a referendum on independence, inspired by those in Scotland (2014) and Quebec (1980, 1995). Unfortunately, unlike the United Kingdom and Canada, the Spanish government decided to respond with repression:

https://www.omnium.cat/en/signforca...Pw2XMkNZOOCHQA7M9QYPIQD1ry-CT19M2Qmy6bqc
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 3rd Sep 2019 11:06pm



What next ? What a mess !
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 4th Sep 2019 6:40am

Everybody’s so fed up of it all , those lot at Westminster all acting like idiots!!!!The EU mob must be rubbing their hands with glee and laughing their socks off!!!!! When is it all going to end?? I despair!!
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 4th Sep 2019 3:47pm

I must say I have a great deal of respect for those Tories that defied Boris Johnson, and that coming from me is a rare accolade for a party I usually despise, the aforementioned gentleman has been found out telling porkies yet again and fully deserves the title of serial liar, the mask slipped last night no smart quips, just spittle and finger pointing.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 4th Sep 2019 5:21pm

Complicated vote, either hand power back to the EU to make whatever preposterous demands they want or agree to the possibility of a no deal Brexit (which they already agreed to previously).

You might notice which way spineless Theresa May voted.

It seems an awful long time ago since we had a half-decent leader and yet they underrate Corbyn who has defied all odds on numerous occasions.

Theresa May
David Cameron
Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
John Major
Margaret Thatcher
James Callahan

Which of those measure up to Corbyn in looking after the majority of people in the country?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 4th Sep 2019 10:39pm


The whole thing is a joke now. All manipulating for their own preferred outcome. Agree with Cools, they are all acting like idiots.

What did make me cringe ( after watching most of the debates this afternoon ) was the way in which the Tory MP's who have had the whip taken away turned on their own party . Hammond was clearly a bit choked when he gave his speech , maybe it was anger coming out .

Some turned really quite nasty in their own polite way and of those I have seen interviewed , they were all pretty gutted I think, and all that came to mind, was ' ha ! now YOU know what it's like to lose your job ' . No sympathy for them, and although Casper, you think they did the right thing, they did not and have never respected the vote of the people. Once Justine Greening resigned from Education Secretary when May tried to move her to another dept. she's always had an axe to grind, quite a number I believe were Remainers anyway.

Theresa May should be reflecting big time on this mess she has brought us to and it would seem there are rumblings tonight that Kier Starmer could be positioning himself as leader of the Labour Party. He'd probably have to eat the ' chlorinated chicken' first, but as we have seen tonight where there's a will, there's a way !

Does anyone want another election ?
Posted By: svenlock68

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 7:55am

One of the hateful things , of many , is rolling out people like grey major or shark eyes brown to tell us what we are " doin wrong "
They ruined the country , robbed pensions, sold all the gold , bankrupted us etc.
Whats happening now just re affirm david noakes ,yet again, " end the eu dictatorship " talk 10 years ago!!!
He said theyll stop at nothing to cause citizens problems during trying to leave.
The funny thing is if matt lucas in a blond wig loses completely , what are whining remainers gona do .....??? More BS and delay.....what a mess.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 8:15am

You'd think they would realise by now that there are only two options, remain in the EU (cancel article 50) or leave the EU fully. Any pre-leaving deal from the EU is going to punish us.

I am very disappointed with the lack of support from other EU countries that want to leave, they should be influencing Brexit to make it easier to leave but of course they are worried about repercussions from mainstream EU (Germany). I love the way Germany is bigging-up France at the moment, surely the French aren't that gullible and they realise that this is only a temporary thing, its only a crown of thorns they have been given not the bishops mitre.

Germany and mainstream EU are a bit quiet at the moment while they work out how to restructure the EU to bring Germany back to full dominance again.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 8:55am

Originally Posted by granny

The whole thing is a joke now. All manipulating for their own preferred outcome. Agree with Cools, they are all acting like idiots.

What did make me cringe ( after watching most of the debates this afternoon ) was the way in which the Tory MP's who have had the whip taken away turned on their own party . Hammond was clearly a bit choked when he gave his speech , maybe it was anger coming out .

Some turned really quite nasty in their own polite way and of those I have seen interviewed , they were all pretty gutted I think, and all that came to mind, was ' ha ! now YOU know what it's like to lose your job ' . No sympathy for them, and although Casper, you think they did the right thing, they did not and have never respected the vote of the people. Once Justine Greening resigned from Education Secretary when May tried to move her to another dept. she's always had an axe to grind, quite a number I believe were Remainers anyway.

Theresa May should be reflecting big time on this mess she has brought us to and it would seem there are rumblings tonight that Kier Starmer could be positioning himself as leader of the Labour Party. He'd probably have to eat the ' chlorinated chicken' first, but as we have seen tonight where there's a will, there's a way !

Does anyone want another election ?


Well I will repeat my question granny, did it specify anywhere that a vote to leave meant a vote to leave with or without a deal, were we given a choice? many people are happy to leave with a deal but that choice is being denied them by the Boris coup d 'etat, how anyone could have any faith in a serial liar a bigot and racist is beyond me, a phoney he didn't mind accepting the support from one of the bum boys he so despises, untrustworthy in his private life, not fit in parliament, supported by his religious nutter buddy lounging across the benches, have we really sunk so low ? the oft quoted chimps tea party hit the screens big time, spitting image to the fore, its about time the whole debacle of parliament was looked into and changes made across the board, the career politicians , the hangers on ,and the deadwood gone. somad
Posted By: keef666

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 9:17am

This has been going on for way too long, and its to wear you all down, We won't be leaving the EU. The main reason was to get Cameroon back in to No10, and the people fell for it the rest as we shall say is history
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 9:30am

Why can't we leave without a deal and just arrange one after we've gone, like we plan to do with other countries?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 1:25pm

Originally Posted by casper
did it specify anywhere that a vote to leave meant a vote to leave with or without a deal, were we given a choice? many people are happy to leave with a deal but that choice is being denied them by the Boris coup d 'etat,


Boris and many others would be more than happy with a fair deal, the main crunch being that the EU can't continue to have legal control over us (other than through normal international law).

There is no question that after a no deal Brexit occurring the EU and the UK will negotiate deals after the event.

What we don't want is a single package, there will be far too many compromises. The main thing the EU wanting to squeeze in is the free movement of people, this implicitly gives them legal control over us. They lie when they say a trade deal is impossible without the free movement of people, they have been negotiating trade deals with many other countries without including the free movement of people.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 3:22pm

Originally Posted by casper

Well I will repeat my question granny, did it specify anywhere that a vote to leave meant a vote to leave with or without a deal, were we given a choice? many people are happy to leave with a deal but that choice is being denied them by the Boris coup d 'etat, how anyone could have any faith in a serial liar a bigot and racist is beyond me, a phoney he didn't mind accepting the support from one of the bum boys he so despises, untrustworthy in his private life, not fit in parliament, supported by his religious nutter buddy lounging across the benches, have we really sunk so low ? the oft quoted chimps tea party hit the screens big time, spitting image to the fore, its about time the whole debacle of parliament was looked into and changes made across the board, the career politicians , the hangers on ,and the deadwood gone. somad


I answered that Casper. Conservative Manifesto in 2017 had 'No Deal is better than a Bad Deal'

Many people, so far as I can make out are far more in favour of 'no deal'


quote from The Independent. :

The Conservative Party will fight the general election on a hard-Brexit manifesto that says “no deal is better than a bad deal”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bind-mps-to-no-deal-brexit-a7742516.html

How is it that Parliament scuppered the deal.. 3 times ? Even Boris voted for it on it's last leg !

Boris is being called a 'serial liar' I'll ask you what are the lies that he has told which affect us, the public ?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 3:25pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
Why can't we leave without a deal and just arrange one after we've gone, like we plan to do with other countries?



I don't understand why the 'backstop' can't be given a time scale, and if no resolve within 12 months, extend it another 12 months to a maximum of say 5 yrs. Surely an alternative would be found by then ?

I think the public are beginning to get really angry now.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 3:47pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
did it specify anywhere that a vote to leave meant a vote to leave with or without a deal, were we given a choice? many people are happy to leave with a deal but that choice is being denied them by the Boris coup d 'etat,


Boris and many others would be more than happy with a fair deal, the main crunch being that the EU can't continue to have legal control over us (other than through normal international law).

There is no question that after a no deal Brexit occurring the EU and the UK will negotiate deals after the event.

What we don't want is a single package, there will be far too many compromises. The main thing the EU wanting to squeeze in is the free movement of people, this implicitly gives them legal control over us. They lie when they say a trade deal is impossible without the free movement of people, they have been negotiating trade deals with many other countries without including the free movement of people.


Exactly.
If this Brexit is somehow overturned, then we will be the prison house of Europe, we will have a country overtaken by Islam, or at least our laws will favour them , Health Care will be controlled by the EU, ( already in the pipeline); Education will be set down by the EU (already in the pipeline, ) ; our farmers to whom the EU pays subsidies to, will see their land become EU controlled land ; our youngters will be in line for a European Army, whether we agree with EU aggression or not ; we will have more Officials from ex eastern block ex Communist States sitting in positions of dictating what we can or cannot do ; more Officials from Muslim Countries (we have quite a number now) sitting in positions of dictating how we have to have more Mosques built and all inclusive laws, paid for by Saudi Arabia ; our taxes, pensions and benefits will all be controlled from the EU, a total lack of housing for ever ; there will be only one religion as the Christian churches and values are being continually undermined, the best of our industries will be sold out so we are totally reliable on Germany, and my father plus many of the war heroes and dead of the last two world wars would break their hearts to think that our Sovereignty that they fought so hard for has been thrown away to Corbynites . If he thinks he can have any standing in a future EU , then he is seriously delusional.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Sep 2019 4:06pm



....and we will be forced to join the Euro !
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 9:48am

Originally Posted by granny
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
did it specify anywhere that a vote to leave meant a vote to leave with or without a deal, were we given a choice? many people are happy to leave with a deal but that choice is being denied them by the Boris coup d 'etat,


Boris and many others would be more than happy with a fair deal, the main crunch being that the EU can't continue to have legal control over us (other than through normal international law).

There is no question that after a no deal Brexit occurring the EU and the UK will negotiate deals after the event.

What we don't want is a single package, there will be far too many compromises. The main thing the EU wanting to squeeze in is the free movement of people, this implicitly gives them legal control over us. They lie when they say a trade deal is impossible without the free movement of people, they have been negotiating trade deals with many other countries without including the free movement of people.


Exactly.
If this Brexit is somehow overturned, then we will be the prison house of Europe, we will have a country overtaken by Islam, or at least our laws will favour them , Health Care will be controlled by the EU, ( already in the pipeline); Education will be set down by the EU (already in the pipeline, ) ; our farmers to whom the EU pays subsidies to, will see their land become EU controlled land ; our youngters will be in line for a European Army, whether we agree with EU aggression or not ; we will have more Officials from ex eastern block ex Communist States sitting in positions of dictating what we can or cannot do ; more Officials from Muslim Countries (we have quite a number now) sitting in positions of dictating how we have to have more Mosques built and all inclusive laws, paid for by Saudi Arabia ; our taxes, pensions and benefits will all be controlled from the EU, a total lack of housing for ever ; there will be only one religion as the Christian churches and values are being continually undermined, the best of our industries will be sold out so we are totally reliable on Germany, and my father plus many of the war heroes and dead of the last two world wars would break their hearts to think that our Sovereignty that they fought so hard for has been thrown away to Corbynites . If he thinks he can have any standing in a future EU , then he is seriously delusional.



Some of what you have written is pure fallacy granny, the European army, health care, although certain eu directives will affect some aspects indirectly, taxes ,pensions, they cant control, really check your facts, we already have mosques built here via Saudi Arabia allowed to grease the palms for the arms industry, the best of our industries have long been sold off, now I wonder who benefited from that ? the NHS our armed forces, police, social services run into the ground, Corbyn isn't the Labour party, you know the Labour party that gave us the NHS and so many other things since then for the benefit of all, a land fit for heroes, not a land for the shysters, the bankers and asset strippers, the much wants more brigade.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 11:40am

The European Army already exists.
The EU are currently working on the European VAT harmonisation program.
The EU has got harmonisation of all taxes in their sights.
All our laws have to be scrutinized by the EU to see if they conflict with their principles or regulations (ask Poland!).
The EU do control pensions of some Countries (ask Greece!).

Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 12:35pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The European Army already exists.
The EU are currently working on the European VAT harmonisation program.
The EU has got harmonisation of all taxes in their sights.
All our laws have to be scrutinized by the EU to see if they conflict with their principles or regulations (ask Poland!).
The EU do control pensions of some Countries (ask Greece!).



Yes the European army does exist, the UK has a veto and therefore is not required to be a part of any such venture, however we do work closely with our allies in Europe, as you can imagine our perceived enemy Russia borders on a lot of EU members countries, its quite easy to make statements that may imply such changes without detail ie: a sentence or headline can appear misleading as to the content, Greece was overpaying itself, people retiring early with full pension and taking up another job, taking the piss, we only see what we want to see.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 2:26pm

Originally Posted by casper
Greece was overpaying itself, people retiring early with full pension and taking up another job, taking the piss, we only see what we want to see.


When there are large numbers of unemployed people it makes sense to encourage people to retire early. It is better that the young have jobs than the old.

The UK is encouraging people to retire later (new state Pension scheme increases your payment if you continue to work past state retirement age without taking the state pension). This is silly as there is a large shortage of jobs (if you ignore the Government stats that hide the numbers by counting anyone working more than one hour a week as being employed and those in "training" as not being unemployed)

Over 10% of UK pensioners have a job (about 1.2 million people), it is not taking the piss, taking the state pension and being employed are not related other than both are counted as incomes for tax and benefit purposes.


Originally Posted by casper
Yes the European army does exist, the UK has a veto and therefore is not required to be a part of any such venture, however we do work closely with our allies in Europe, as you can imagine our perceived enemy Russia borders on a lot of EU members countries, its quite easy to make statements that may imply such changes without detail ie: a sentence or headline can appear misleading as to the content.


Whether the UK takes part or not will not stop the further formation of the EU army which is well on its way, in reality we have extensively co-operated with the idea despite not formally tying ourselves to it. Further than that the EU-NATO agreement means that the EU can influence NATO which we are committed to.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8216
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 3:33pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
Greece was overpaying itself, people retiring early with full pension and taking up another job, taking the piss, we only see what we want to see.


When there are large numbers of unemployed people it makes sense to encourage people to retire early. It is better that the young have jobs than the old.

The UK is encouraging people to retire later (new state Pension scheme increases your payment if you continue to work past state retirement age without taking the state pension). This is silly as there is a large shortage of jobs (if you ignore the Government stats that hide the numbers by counting anyone working more than one hour a week as being employed and those in "training" as not being unemployed)

Over 10% of UK pensioners have a job (about 1.2 million people), it is not taking the piss, taking the state pension and being employed are not related other than both are counted as incomes for tax and benefit purposes.


Originally Posted by casper
Yes the European army does exist, the UK has a veto and therefore is not required to be a part of any such venture, however we do work closely with our allies in Europe, as you can imagine our perceived enemy Russia borders on a lot of EU members countries, its quite easy to make statements that may imply such changes without detail ie: a sentence or headline can appear misleading as to the content.


Whether the UK takes part or not will not stop the further formation of the EU army which is well on its way, in reality we have extensively co-operated with the idea despite not formally tying ourselves to it. Further than that the EU-NATO agreement means that the EU can influence NATO which we are committed to.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8216


Your missing the point DD, the Greeks were retiring at 55 on full pensions,( taking the piss) very nice if you can get it, there is a difference to people working here past retirement age to survive,( not taking the piss) the Greek economy was in dire straights so they had to be bailed out (overpaying themselves) who in their right mind would bail someone out with that going on without strict terms? but you already know that.

My response about the European Army was quite correct, if they wish to form an army fine, but we have no obligation, our kids will not be conscripted as granny suggested, scaremongering by the Tory press again.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 4:14pm


Merkel on a European Amy.


Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 4:16pm


Guy Verhofstadt on European Army.

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 5:06pm

Originally Posted by casper
[quote=diggingdeeper][quote=casper]Greece was overpaying itself, people retiring early with full pension and taking up another job, taking the piss


I still don't get it?

Most EU countries now have retirement ages the same as us (Greece is more than ours at the moment) but get much more pension, in the past we generally have had the worst of both worlds and find it difficult to judge other countries with what seems to us as a better deal.

Did more than 10% of pensioned Greeks have a second job? With high unemployment it seems unlikely especially as they had a reasonable pension. Of those, how many were actually the old tax fiddle of spreading "employment" around the family in family run businesses, something that is also rife in this country even before retirement age.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 5:16pm

Anyway, back to Brexit, one of our very few referendums will on Monday be over-ruled. Democracy yet again walked straight over. We will now become the Dalit of the EU, thanks guys!

Getting Boris into power all makes sense now, the whole ploy was to cancel Brexit.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Sep 2019 10:53pm


Alexis Tsipras was turned over by the EU.

The Greeks were starving, and couldn't pay their electricity bills. They used less and the companies raised the prices (not to lose their profits. Sound familiar ? ) He came into office after the protests, and Merkel immediately took him under her wing and corrupted him . What did he ever do for the people who elected him ? Nothing !
My son lived in Greece for a while, so I know how hard it was for them.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Sep 2019 6:12am

Tsipras didn't have much choice, Merkel held financial power over Greece and she totally abused that power. The end result? Virtually complete asset stripping of Greece, they will never own their own country ever again and are stuck as a puppet nation.

What is most annoying is the lack of empathy by Germany, they were helped to rebuild and restructure after WW2 with crazy amounts of money written off and yet Germany didn't return the favour to Greece.

If we get out the EU I would like to think in time we would offer Greece an escape route/lifeline. Other than the ridiculous issue over the Elgin Marbles our two countries have been close allies for many years.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Sep 2019 7:53am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Tsipras didn't have much choice, Merkel held financial power over Greece and she totally abused that power. The end result? Virtually complete asset stripping of Greece, they will never own their own country ever again and are stuck as a puppet nation.

What is most annoying is the lack of empathy by Germany, they were helped to rebuild and restructure after WW2 with crazy amounts of money written off and yet Germany didn't return the favour to Greece.

If we get out the EU I would like to think in time we would offer Greece an escape route/lifeline. Other than the ridiculous issue over the Elgin Marbles our two countries have been close allies for many years.


Regarding the Second World war, you could say the same about our country almost bankrupt after the war yet we still had to pay our debts off, whats the old adage, no sentiment in business, whilst Germany and Japan thrived practically rebuilt.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Sep 2019 1:27pm



Does Germany still have the restrictions imposed on their Military after WWII ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Sep 2019 5:22pm

Originally Posted by granny


Does Germany still have the restrictions imposed on their Military after WWII ?


Yes!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Sep 2019 11:44pm


Never a day goes by without another trauma !


Piers Corbyn, made a vey nasty attack on his brother in the Mail online !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 8th Sep 2019 8:13am

Not really, that’s a bit of journalistic licence.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Sep 2019 10:47am



Watched it all last night . The Election Debate to the suspension of Parliament. Sickening.. the whole lot. It was a 4 hour (or more) theatrical side show for the public gallery
They are all a disgrace to the people of this country and when activist and protesting MP's bring their street habits into the House of Commons , where so many well respected men and women have passed through, over centuries, it shows what low life many of these MP's are, and have no respect for themselves, let alone the public they are voted to represent. Low life doesn't have to mean 'lay abouts' and 'drug addicts' !


Disgusting, disgraceful, and defeatist.
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Sep 2019 10:58am

This is all going to drag on and on Granny, think they should have just let Boris get on with it and end it one way or another!!
Watched that supercilious Emily woman this morning , she comes over as a conniving weasel in my opinion.
I don’t know what the answer is to all this but just let it end aaaaaaaahh!!!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Sep 2019 11:57am



She is a weasel along with so many of her 'friends'. .

I don't think it will drag on now. I believe Boris's commitment about leaving on the 31st October. He is adamant that it will happen. How.. who knows, but I am even convinced he is so passionate about delivering on the result of the referendum , that he would go behind bars if necessary. Going down in the history books for dedication to democracy , none of the others will ever be able to say that.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Sep 2019 6:16pm

Originally Posted by granny


Watched it all last night . The Election Debate to the suspension of Parliament. Sickening.. the whole lot. It was a 4 hour (or more) theatrical side show for the public gallery
They are all a disgrace to the people of this country and when activist and protesting MP's bring their street habits into the House of Commons , where so many well respected men and women have passed through, over centuries, it shows what low life many of these MP's are, and have no respect for themselves, let alone the public they are voted to represent. Low life doesn't have to mean 'lay abouts' and 'drug addicts' !


Disgusting, disgraceful, and defeatist.


I take it the lay about is Jacob Rees-Mogg, as I have said before most of this behaviour wouldn't be tolerated in the work place, yet time and again these people are allowed to carry on, they tell us they are there to serve us, that we pay their wages, they change their alliances their party politics just to stay on the political gravy train,the world looks on, a once proud country being turned into a soap opera, star struck royalty only adding to the decline.
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Sep 2019 10:47am

Yawn yawn this is such a boring game of political chess. Your move Boris!
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Sep 2019 10:53am

Originally Posted by cools
Yawn yawn this is such a boring game of political chess. Your move Boris!
I have faith in Boris,He will deliver our Brexit on the 31st.
Notice the remainers are putting every obstacle in his way to stop him.

Good news is some have resigned and he has drained a swamp quicker than Trump lol.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Sep 2019 12:44pm

Originally Posted by snowhite
Originally Posted by cools
Yawn yawn this is such a boring game of political chess. Your move Boris!
I have faith in Boris,He will deliver our Brexit on the 31st.
Notice the remainers are putting every obstacle in his way to stop him.

Good news is some have resigned and he has drained a swamp quicker than Trump lol.



His next move could well be out of the door, his prorogation of parliament has been deemed illegal, I can't understand why someone would champion the likes of Boris Johnson, a proven liar, fornicator, bigot and racist, wouldn't like to be in a lifeboat with him, untrustworthy in private life, untrustworthy in government, no doubt more revelations to follow.
Posted By: svenlock68

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 9:04am

The countrys falling for the remainer biased scare mongering....
They will stop at nothing just like irish 10 yrs ago with lisbon treaty , wear u down , then give you two choices that arent really leaving.
Its so transparent.
" no food ,no water ,bills go up, no drugs blah blah blah " its comical .
Weve been thro wars sad scared prog liberal weak whiny britain.
Its cause of MPS why its all so long winded & painful cause we didnt do what they wanted in 2016.
Sad.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 3:40pm

Originally Posted by svenlock68
The countrys falling for the remainer biased scare mongering....
They will stop at nothing just like irish 10 yrs ago with lisbon treaty , wear u down , then give you two choices that arent really leaving.
Its so transparent.
" no food ,no water ,bills go up, no drugs blah blah blah " its comical .
Weve been thro wars sad scared prog liberal weak whiny britain.
Its cause of MPS why its all so long winded & painful cause we didnt do what they wanted in 2016.
Sad.


How is it scare mongering? the governments own document has laid this bare as a reasonable forecast after first denying it, I don't think its comical, I think that Johnson and his far right cronies have been outed as the liars and charlatans that they are, their aim to turn this country into a low wage economy and to reduce or remove workers rights, after a vicious austerity programme designed to make people compliant and willing to accept anything, and to give us all the impression that all will be well they are starting to spend money they say we didn't have, and to rebuild industry that they destroyed (shipbuilding) why didn't they do this years ago? why didn't they invest in this country? they stutter and splutter when asked to explain, defending the lies that have been told.

We now have all political parties even Tory party supporters rallying against a no deal, what does that tell you? oh I forgot he does have an ally Farage.

If we are weak then it is because we have been let down by our government, our armed forces run into the ground, a tanker taken by the Iranians a simpleton could see happening yet they allowed it to happen, we can't even defend our own shore line against illegal immigrants, because everything has been pared to the bone, yes you are right there we are a laughing stock, but its not down to those that work so hard, but by a money obsessed government.

If anyone is transparent it's Javid with his sale of the century, now that's comical.
Posted By: svenlock68

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 4:37pm

Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by svenlock68
The countrys falling for the remainer biased scare mongering....
They will stop at nothing just like irish 10 yrs ago with lisbon treaty , wear u down , then give you two choices that arent really leaving.
Its so transparent.
" no food ,no water ,bills go up, no drugs blah blah blah " its comical .
Weve been thro wars sad scared prog liberal weak whiny britain.
Its cause of MPS why its all so long winded & painful cause we didnt do what they wanted in 2016.
Sad.


How is it scare mongering? the governments own document has laid this bare as a reasonable forecast after first denying it, I don't think its comical, I think that Johnson and his far right cronies have been outed as the liars and charlatans that they are, their aim to turn this country into a low wage economy and to reduce or remove workers rights, after a vicious austerity programme designed to make people compliant and willing to accept anything, and to give us all the impression that all will be well they are starting to spend money they say we didn't have, and to rebuild industry that they destroyed (shipbuilding) why didn't they do this years ago? why didn't they invest in this country? they stutter and splutter when asked to explain, defending the lies that have been told.

We now have all political parties even Tory party supporters rallying against a no deal, what does that tell you? oh I forgot he does have an ally Farage.

If we are weak then it is because we have been let down by our government, our armed forces run into the ground, a tanker taken by the Iranians a simpleton could see happening yet they allowed it to happen, we can't even defend our own shore line against illegal immigrants, because everything has been pared to the bone, yes you are right there we are a laughing stock, but its not down to those that work so hard, but by a money obsessed government.

If anyone is transparent it's Javid with his sale of the century, now that's comical.


" yellowhammer " ( silly name ) is a scare mongering worse case senario by guess who ? ? Remainer government civil servants.
Why do u think that just conservative mps or pms are at fault....weve been lied to via treason & corruption since ted heath in 71.
All parties are scummy...youre stating the obvious !!!
We know this.
By freakin out & worrying , you completely pander to them.
Yes mps and pms have asset stripped uk long ago ...whats your point?
They need to be all sacked. Theyre useless narcissists.
Go onto youtube and watch " rodney atkinson talk about magna carta & queens treason "
Albert burgess " a case for treason ted heath "
And best , david noakes " end the eu " ( 10 yrs old btw )
The EU is built on lies / raping uk / corruption etc etc .
Uk folk are so dumbed down by consumption / distraction / confusion / frustration .....exactly what they want
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 5:15pm

Originally Posted by casper
How is it scare mongering? the governments own document has laid this bare as a reasonable forecast after first denying it, I don't think its comical


Its a worse case scenario, the same would apply at any time not just Brexit. The media are sensationalising this as "what is to be expected", that is perverting the intent of the document.

At the end of the day, neither side wants to stop the trade across the border, especially the EU, the balance of trade is in their favour. Why would they stop trade movement???
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 6:31pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
How is it scare mongering? the governments own document has laid this bare as a reasonable forecast after first denying it, I don't think its comical


Its a worse case scenario, the same would apply at any time not just Brexit. The media are sensationalising this as "what is to be expected", that is perverting the intent of the document.

At the end of the day, neither side wants to stop the trade across the border, especially the EU, the balance of trade is in their favour. Why would they stop trade movement???



I think the wording was, reasonable worst case scenario, what could be expected might be a more correct evaluation, if the yellowhammer document wasn't damaging then why refuse to publish it? and yes you are quite right neither side wants to stop trade, its the logistics that would / will cause the worst problems, do you honestly think BJ is doing this for the good of the country, perhaps he was way ahead when he purchased the water cannon we paid for, always a method in their madness, underneath the jolly japes lies a very dangerous man.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 8:03pm



Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Sep 2019 11:16pm



....and Blair and Mandelson are still tinkering about behind the screens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-PsBG-tvXxoqZZ_HEa-r7HhIzLKqNAvNJpstV6ds


I watched the Politics Show today. An ex KGB Agent was on it. He now owns the Evening Standard and the Independent newspapers . Although he said he has no input into what those papers report, when asked to give a yes or no answer to whether or not Russian money is undermining democracy in this country, his answer was 'yes'.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 9:54am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.


The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?), however May changed this with her red lines and things had to be done within a specified time frame, so what was then a simple yes or no with options, has progressed to the tangled web of article 50.

As to BJ's motives he has now seen support for a no deal drop away rapidly and keeps repeating that he is desperately seeking a deal, yet there is no evidence of this from any quarter, so now from promoting himself as the saviour of brexit and the hopes of becoming a great PM who led us out of the desert of Europe, he is isolated with his gang, which I can see dwindling as the trappings of power slip away after riding high on the coat tails of the leave voters, and believing that they and they alone would carry him to power.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 11:06am

Originally Posted by casper
The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?),


When the EU still controls what goes on INSIDE our borders and/or our relationship with other non-EU countries then that is wrong, the leave vote was clearly a vote of independence. There has not been any deal yet which has come close to making us independent, we would remain a subservient non-sovereign state of the EU.

BJ was a fall guy who was carefully chosen because if he self-destructed it wouldn't also take down the Tory party. That is how manipulative the Tories are, they don't put their best people up front in case they get shot down.

As to the remainers refusal to acknowledge the half-leave concept, if it was all reversed and we had voted to remain but the Government had started to negotiate a lesser integrated deal with the EU, the remainers would be up in arms.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 12:48pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Whatever BJ's motives it seems the outcome he wanted matched the democratic outcome of the UK.

Do I think he's capable of being PM of the country? no, but that doesn't mean he is going to be wrong all the time.

The public voted to leave the UK
Parliament voted to leave the EU on more than one location.
We had laws (more than one) to leave the EU.

Nobody voted to half-leave the EU.
Parliament have never voted to half-leave the EU.
There have never been any laws to half-leave the EU.

The public voted against staying in the EU.
Parliament did not vote to stay in the EU.
There are no laws to stay in the EU.


The public voted to leave the EU, and when that vote was taken, it did not exclude us from being members of the single market, the customs union or some kind of relationship to follow on ( do you consider this as half leaving?), however May changed this with her red lines and things had to be done within a specified time frame, so what was then a simple yes or no with options, has progressed to the tangled web of article 50.

As to BJ's motives he has now seen support for a no deal drop away rapidly and keeps repeating that he is desperately seeking a deal, yet there is no evidence of this from any quarter, so now from promoting himself as the saviour of brexit and the hopes of becoming a great PM who led us out of the desert of Europe, he is isolated with his gang, which I can see dwindling as the trappings of power slip away after riding high on the coat tails of the leave voters, and believing that they and they alone would carry him to power.
Originally Posted by granny


....and Blair and Mandelson are still tinkering about behind the screens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-PsBG-tvXxoqZZ_HEa-r7HhIzLKqNAvNJpstV6ds


I watched the Politics Show today. An ex KGB Agent was on it. He now owns the Evening Standard and the Independent newspapers . Although he said he has no input into what those papers report, when asked to give a yes or no answer to whether or not Russian money is undermining democracy in this country, his answer was 'yes'.



Oh granny the Russians have been undermining us since the end of WW2, its nothing new, I seem to remember the comments on this forum about the Novichok incident when many comments on here poo pooed the idea of Russian involvement rather believing it was a leak from Porton Down,no doubt there are many in the hierarchy that have availed themselves of Russian money and influence to add to their portfolio's, mmmm Profumo springs to mind.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 2:11pm

The point I am making DD is yes we voted to leave, if everyone voted to leave without any opposition and the government then said however will still carry on being members of the common market ? customs union, would you consider that defying the vote of the people? because in the referendum there was no mention that this could or couldn't happen, well there wasn't much mention of anything really was there? just two choices, yes or no.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 4:48pm

We voted to leave their jurisdiction, it was never in any question that we would end up with some sort of trade deal, of course we would/will.

BUT there is no way that the EU should legally control what happens inside our borders, especially if we have no part in the process that decides those legal controls. There is no way the EU should be part of our law making process, if they are we most certainly haven't left the EU.

Can you think of any example where you leave an organisation yet they still have control over your life as though you had never left? Or an organisation where you have to pay them much more than your normal annual fees to be allowed to leave? Its like an alternative universe where every concept is suddenly reversed!

I've been a member of all sorts of organisations and part-owner in others, when I left, I left, if they wanted control over me they would have to pay me for the privilege and it would be my choice whether to accept or not.

We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU? They should be thanking us for everything we have given to them and wishing us well for the future.

I bet you can't name one thing your MEP has voted on and know which way they voted, ninety something percent of the country can't name their MEP. The EU is autonomous and undemocratic, Its a hidden level of Government that we have no control over and our attempts at leaving have demonstrated that more than ever.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 6:30pm

And do you think we would get a trade deal DD with Boris telling them they can whistle for any money owed? from my experience you don't go into negotiations banging the table, and yes apathy has a lot to do with the state of the country, never mind naming MEPS most cant name their local MP, they have more interest in supporting a local football team, the only time people are interested is when an unpopular piece of legislation hits them (poll Tax), but its to late then the damage is done.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 13th Sep 2019 8:48pm

There is absolutely no doubt that we will have a trade deal with the EU.

Its not apathy, its careful manipulation by the Tories (and I include Blairites in that title) and the media to disorientate the general public.

Most of the successful businessmen are table bangers.

We do not owe the EU one penny, that is a complete fallacy. The EU budget is set annually with a long term strategy set in six year intervals, the current long term strategy runs out in 2020. How can we be held to payments that have not even been budgeted yet? The EU's income varies, they adjust the budget to match, we leave, they get less money, they have to adapt.

We may have to pay UK MEP pensions but that will then be a UK payment, not an EU payment, we cannot "owe" the EU that money.

I notice you have not answered "We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU?".
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 14th Sep 2019 4:20pm



I still believe the Skripal case was constructed for a specific purpose and by us or the CIA, Casper . Far too many discrepancies that have not been answered.

Now we have Jo Swinson hoping to revoke Article 50. New brooms sweep clean.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 14th Sep 2019 6:10pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
There is absolutely no doubt that we will have a trade deal with the EU.

Its not apathy, its careful manipulation by the Tories (and I include Blairites in that title) and the media to disorientate the general public.

Most of the successful businessmen are table bangers.

We do not owe the EU one penny, that is a complete fallacy. The EU budget is set annually with a long term strategy set in six year intervals, the current long term strategy runs out in 2020. How can we be held to payments that have not even been budgeted yet? The EU's income varies, they adjust the budget to match, we leave, they get less money, they have to adapt.

We may have to pay UK MEP pensions but that will then be a UK payment, not an EU payment, we cannot "owe" the EU that money.

I notice you have not answered "We have been a massive cash-cow to the EU, in what way have we benefited from the huge amount of money we have sunk into the EU?".


The Owen owens money I believe came from the deal made by TM that we would pay x amounts cant think of the figure off hand if we left before 2020, don't know if it still stands, details were very scarce, who knows what has been agreed ? and yes we pay a lot of money into the EU, and so do other countries that wish to trade with the EU but are not member's ( friends without benefits), not that it makes it right, we have had benefits back via the public and private sector but yes we pay in more than we get out, but I'll say this better the devil you know.

So you forecast we will have a trade deal with the EU, but we will still be paying money in without anything in return and maybe free movement and other bits and bobs, we have to weigh the good against the bad, it will be all in the detail.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 14th Sep 2019 8:49pm

All in good time, after Brexit, the EU needs a trade deal more than we do. France is trying to step up to take over from Germany as the dominent power, if you look at France's economy that isn't going to last long.

The "divorce bill" that has been calculated is largely for money way into the future (up to 2028), normal payments up to 2020and the much smaller amount for pensions. It didn't take into account we are shared owners of many EU assets.

The normal payments were calculated as gross but minus the UK rebate, it did not deduct for money the UK would have normally have "received" from the EU and the EU has placed conditions on us qualifying for such money. Not that we really receive any money from the EU, it is our money and it always stays in the UK.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 23rd Sep 2019 9:51pm

The Labour Party Conference voted against Remain. I always thought the average socialist would be against the EU and it was a media Blairite myth that they were pro-EU.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 24th Sep 2019 8:00am



Oh dear ! Where does that leave Owen Jones and all the other red faced clowns ?
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 24th Sep 2019 9:21am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The Labour Party Conference voted against Remain. I always thought the average socialist would be against the EU and it was a media Blairite myth that they were pro-EU.


Did you see the show of hands though - it was still pretty much 50-50. And that's Labour's problem. Remainers are now drifting to the Lib Dems and Leavers to the Tories and Brexit party.

Corbyn sits on the fence becuase he's scared of actually leading and making a decision - and that shows why he'd make a poor PM. He can't even manage his own party, what use would he be on the world stage?

Then you have Kier Stamer. He thinks he can hop over to Europe and negotiate the best deal ever, even when Europe knows he's a staunch Remainer.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 24th Sep 2019 2:11pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
Did you see the show of hands though - it was still pretty much 50-50


It wasn't anywhere near 50-50, the show of hands was clearly against the proposal and that's why it didn't go to a card vote. It was confused by Wendy Nichols messing up and getting things back to front,


Originally Posted by Gibbo
Corbyn sits on the fence becuase he's scared of actually leading and making a decision - and that shows why he'd make a poor PM. He can't even manage his own party, what use would he be on the world stage?


Corbyn isn't in a position to make a decision, that is called democracy.

Name another party leader that has managed their own party successfully? Corbyn is no different in that respect, we don't want a dictator running this country, parties will be a "broadchurch" just like the population are but those parties should stay in their own corners..

Considering Corbyn took over a socialist party whose MPs had been very heavily infiltrated by Tories he has done an amazing job, not helped by the MSM being bribed/cajoled/blackmailed by the Conservative Government.

They used to say he wasn't strong enough, he has survived more attacks than any other leader in UK political history and is still there and is still supported by more people than any other individual politician in the EU, is that not showing strength?
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 9:09am

It appears Boris is the only one who believes he's right, speaking on the outcome of the court case, he didn't agree with the result, it sounded like a parking ticket he was disputing, when asked questions while sitting with Trump he appeared stuck for words, Trump just shrugged it off as another day at the office, two peas in a pod arrogance and contempt.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 9:28am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
It wasn't anywhere near 50-50, the show of hands was clearly against the proposal and that's why it didn't go to a card vote. It was confused by Wendy Nichols messing up and getting things back to front,


Watch: the moment Labour almost backed Remain
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/watch-the-moment-labour-almost-backed-remain/


Was this when the fix went in? Moment Labour conference chair changed her mind about result of crucial Brexit vote after Jeremy Corbyn's loyal lieutenant had a word
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...al-lieutenant-saved-Brexit-disaster.html

If the vote was so overwhelming for Corbyn, why the refusal of a card vote?


Majority of 2017 Labour voters think Jeremy Corbyn should step down as leader, poll finds
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...my-corbyn-step-down-leader-a9115976.html


What's worse is that the party has now lost some of its more moderate MPs like Chuka Umunna, and he'll take the voters to the Lib Dems with him.

When it looked like he was going to be the leader in 2015 I felt that the party had turned a corner and that with him at the helm it would lead to a fresh start from the disastrous last days and Brown and Blair, and the punishment Miliband got because of them (although I still say they chose the wrong Miliband).

But Corbyn fans can't see this. They've got the old style Labour leader they've sorely missed, but its costing them power. And McDonnell and his zany schemes of 30 hour weeks, £10 an hour wages for kids and free healthcare isn't helping. I hope they're planting those money trees on Corbyn's allotment.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 6:17pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
[quote=diggingdeeper]

But Corbyn fans can't see this. They've got the old style Labour leader they've sorely missed, but its costing them power. And McDonnell and his zany schemes of 30 hour weeks, £10 an hour wages for kids and free healthcare isn't helping. I hope they're planting those money trees on Corbyn's allotment.


I thought we already received free health care, Scotland and Wales already get free prescriptions so why not us? why is a 32 hour week zany? manufacturing industries are dying, we have robots doing more and more of the mundane repetitive jobs, the future is becoming a reality the times they are a changing, and what is the Tory answer, if you have no job starve, if you are working carry on until you are in your seventies, but then they have always gone for the easy option, if your business is in trouble grab the cash and run, never mind those that are left behind without a livelyhood or those left with huge unpaid bills or depleted pension pots, if brexit has done nothing else it has turned the spotlight on those that purport to govern us they are shown for what they really are.
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 9:16pm

OMG!! Watching that shower shouting and bawling in the House of Commons today, what a pantomime!! To think this lot deciding our future makes you shudder!! Makes me want to go off grid somewhere to escape it all!...a bit trivial but couldn’t help notice that Jo Swinton looks like Sturgeon in looks, anyone else think so ?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 10:30pm


I think they might be surprised to know how many people have tuned in and watched their antics. Have to agree with you Cools.
Jo Swinson , well she has the gift of the gab, like Sturgeon does. Is it all Scots who shout and bluster their way through everything.

Did you see the clip when Boris exposed Swinson's letter to the President of the EU Commission asking him not to do a deal with UK ? That was an eye opener .

Seem like anarchy has reached Parliament .


Here :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49833561/lib-dem-leader-jo-swinson-demands-apology-from-pm
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 25th Sep 2019 10:41pm



So far as free prescriptions go in England... pensioners get them, unemployed get them, students get them, children get them, tax credits get them, low income get them, medical conditions with disability get them, maternity/pregnant mums get them.
In fact just about everyone does, apart from healthy working people above a certain income and I'm sure most Labour supporters would consider the rich should pay for their prescriptions.

A wasted promise to be used as a vote catcher.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 26th Sep 2019 12:36am

Originally Posted by Gibbo
If the vote was so overwhelming for Corbyn, why the refusal of a card vote?


It wasn't a vote about Corbyn it was a vote to remain.

Wendy Nicolls (who wants remain) as Chair was the only person who could decide if there was a card vote or not, she chose not to have a card vote because she knew a review of the videos would show there was an overwhelming majority of votes against the remain motion and therefore she couldn't go to a card vote.

Originally Posted by Gibbo
What's worse is that the party has now lost some of its more moderate MPs like Chuka Umunna, and he'll take the voters to the Lib Dems with him.


How anyone can think Jo Swindon is a moderate is way beyond me, her voting record is more right wing than IDS, but the media aren't publicising her policies just how she attacks other politicians. She hasn't got an ounce of empathy in her body, vote Jo and you get Attila.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 26th Sep 2019 8:04am

Originally Posted by granny


So far as free prescriptions go in England... pensioners get them, unemployed get them, students get them, children get them, tax credits get them, low income get them, medical conditions with disability get them, maternity/pregnant mums get them.
In fact just about everyone does, apart from healthy working people above a certain income and I'm sure most Labour supporters would consider the rich should pay for their prescriptions.

A wasted promise to be used as a vote catcher.


And thereby lays the problem granny define low income, we are into the same territory as the 75 plus tv licence, just a few £'s can take people over the defining line for all kinds of benefits and assistance, and £8.80 is outrageous, so much for a free NHS, now I wonder who put these charges up ?
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 26th Sep 2019 8:54am

Originally Posted by casper
I thought we already received free health care, Scotland and Wales already get free prescriptions so why not us? why is a 32 hour week zany? manufacturing industries are dying, we have robots doing more and more of the mundane repetitive jobs, the future is becoming a reality the times they are a changing, and what is the Tory answer, if you have no job starve, if you are working carry on until you are in your seventies, but then they have always gone for the easy option, if your business is in trouble grab the cash and run, never mind those that are left behind without a livelyhood or those left with huge unpaid bills or depleted pension pots, if brexit has done nothing else it has turned the spotlight on those that purport to govern us they are shown for what they really are.


This is the care I was talking about:

A missed opportunity? Why Labour's social care policy has had a lukewarm response
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/25/labour-social-care-policy-lukewarm-response

As for the 32 hour week, explain how that will work for teachers and in schools?

And the retirement age in the UK follows the trend of most other EU countries. In the Netherlands the retirement age is 68 years old. People are lving longer, they're more capable of working in older age than in the past, and many don't want to stop working.

Although you're wrong about people working "in their seventies". The age of retirement is due to rise to 69 in 2046, and steadily rising the same in every other EU country. So don't blame the Tories for something that's happening across Europe.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 26th Sep 2019 9:45am

Originally Posted by Gibbo
Although you're wrong about people working "in their seventies". The age of retirement is due to rise to 69 in 2046, and steadily rising the same in every other EU country. So don't blame the Tories for something that's happening across Europe.


Just because leaders are in cahoots with each other doesn't make it right, it mainly exposes how inhumane they are.They are rich or get rich and want the country to become a bipartite wealth and social system.

The low wages for the young leaves a black hole in the pension system so they are increasing the pension age, they should be paying the young a fair wage instead .... but that wouldn't be in line with the greedy rich.

We have have a social system that financially discriminates against people up to the age of 35 now and other steps at 18, 21 and 25. these have all gradually crept in chipping away at the poorer majority of society.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 27th Sep 2019 8:18am

Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by granny


So far as free prescriptions go in England... pensioners get them, unemployed get them, students get them, children get them, tax credits get them, low income get them, medical conditions with disability get them, maternity/pregnant mums get them.
In fact just about everyone does, apart from healthy working people above a certain income and I'm sure most Labour supporters would consider the rich should pay for their prescriptions.

A wasted promise to be used as a vote catcher.


And thereby lays the problem granny define low income, we are into the same territory as the 75 plus tv licence, just a few £'s can take people over the defining line for all kinds of benefits and assistance, and £8.80 is outrageous, so much for a free NHS, now I wonder who put these charges up ?


Not for me to define low income, that's already been defined by Government. I know all about the few £'s taking one over the defining line.. I live with it , but I:m not so jealous of someone else receiving all the benefits that I am not allowed . However, take away the prescription charges from those earning over £17,000 up to £500,000 plus and what is it going to achieve.. ? Nothing ! All it is going to do is reduce the revenue already used to support the Health Services. Maybe he will introduce a new Bill where those earning more pay a higher charge for medication. Nothing would surprise me with him and his Marxist cohorts.
I take it, Casper you agree with Corbyn on other issues too ?

Anyway, each to their own, and I still love you, as we are grown up and we don't need to spit venom across the internet as so many MP's did across the floor of the House on Wednesday . Kissy, Kissy wink
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 27th Sep 2019 8:48am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Just because leaders are in cahoots with each other doesn't make it right, it mainly exposes how inhumane they are.They are rich or get rich and want the country to become a bipartite wealth and social system.


It doesn't make it wrong either. Many studies have revealed numerous benefits associated with working longer.

Working later in life can pay off in more than just income
Benefits such as mental stimulation and social engagement are associated with staving off chronic disease.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stay...ife-can-pay-off-in-more-than-just-income
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 27th Sep 2019 11:30am

Funny how most of the gentry live to a ripe old age and don’t do much apart from chase the chamber maid. It keeps you young though.

Anybody that’s daft enough to be a couch potato is bound to suffer health problems.

Are you “living” iif most of your life is in employment, it’s only a form of slavery.

Regardless how old people live to, generally their health and fitness starts sliding downhill long before death. Forcing them to work is in humane.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 27th Sep 2019 6:45pm

Originally Posted by granny
Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by granny


So far as free prescriptions go in England... pensioners get them, unemployed get them, students get them, children get them, tax credits get them, low income get them, medical conditions with disability get them, maternity/pregnant mums get them.
In fact just about everyone does, apart from healthy working people above a certain income and I'm sure most Labour supporters would consider the rich should pay for their prescriptions.

A wasted promise to be used as a vote catcher.


And thereby lays the problem granny define low income, we are into the same territory as the 75 plus tv licence, just a few £'s can take people over the defining line for all kinds of benefits and assistance, and £8.80 is outrageous, so much for a free NHS, now I wonder who put these charges up ?


Not for me to define low income, that's already been defined by Government. I know all about the few £'s taking one over the defining line.. I live with it , but I:m not so jealous of someone else receiving all the benefits that I am not allowed . However, take away the prescription charges from those earning over £17,000 up to £500,000 plus and what is it going to achieve.. ? Nothing ! All it is going to do is reduce the revenue already used to support the Health Services. Maybe he will introduce a new Bill where those earning more pay a higher charge for medication. Nothing would surprise me with him and his Marxist cohorts.
I take it, Casper you agree with Corbyn on other issues too ?

Anyway, each to their own, and I still love you, as we are grown up and we don't need to spit venom across the internet as so many MP's did across the floor of the House on Wednesday . Kissy, Kissy wink




Yes granny I think most of us are sensible on here and try not to offend or upset each other when trying to make a point, although none of us may admit it, we can see valid points from all sides of a discussion, and no I am not a Corbynista, but I wouldn't touch the Tories or the Lib Dems with the proverbial barge pole, Its nice to know that I am still held in your affections, yours as ever casper xxx wink smile
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 28th Sep 2019 7:40am

Good morning Saturday and Casper hi

Just for the record, I can't think of anything more confusing as is happening these days. If we don't leave on the 31st October, there will be a General Election ,as Corbyn and Swinson want. The way people are feeling in many places is despair and we can all see the devious twists and turns to achieve the end result against the democracy of the referendum.

If Farage stands in a General Election, he will win hands down and the crazy thing about that is, he didn't want to become a PM. or be in such a position. That is how I understood it, & why they were called the Brexit Party, as a temporary party intending to disband once we left the EU but they held a position of defiance and stood up for our democratic principles in the EU parliament.
Posted By: keef666

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 28th Sep 2019 5:18pm

Been married for thirty something years, now getting fed up of the nagging, so going for a divorce and packing my bags but don't worry i will be back each Sunday to get my Sunday roast and take my laundry to be washed and may even get a bit of nooky, That's whats the Brexit deal is about, we voted to leave so leave!, Don't remember having deals before we joined!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 28th Sep 2019 5:20pm

We definitely voted to leave as a democracy, its only the MPs who don't want this, they will have to work for their living instead of just following the EU.

We had agreements before we joined, we will have agreements afterwards, what we don't want is to have a compromise on every single agreement by putting it into one package called a deal.

Attached picture Referendum2016result.jpg
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 28th Sep 2019 9:30pm

The problem is, everything has moved on a lot more. They managed to secure Mrs May's exit.

Now it's become the best way to get rid of PM Boris, bring down the Government, and put Corbyn as temporary PM. How long after that might a General Election be held ?
In the meantime, Brexit would be cancelled and we'll be left with a Marxist Government .
All calculated and being actioned with the constant dragging up of muck to throw,the Supreme Court, the inquiries into alleged wrong doings of Boris when Mayor, Farage being questioned by police about a comment he made.
Someone somewhere is really throwing this country to the wolves.

But, I remember back in the 70's when the military were on alert waiting for civil unrest. I cant; remember what it was about now, but a programme was made revealing the extent of how, where , why and when they would move into action.
I can see similar happening if things get out of hand, but unfortunately if there's a military coup or martial law, then we are all doomed. Blow me, we could all run to the EU and escape, 67million of us !!

With regard to language being made in Parliament this week, people have conveniently forgotten :


https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/26/four-times-remainers-used-toxic-language/

Take Labour MP Jess Phillips, who today will ask an urgent question in parliament about the PM’s ‘toxic’ language. In 2015, she said that, when the time came to oust Jeremy Corbyn as leader, she would knife him ‘in the front not the back’.

Lib Dem Ed Davey also led the condemnation of Johnson’s language last night. Well, in June, he said Remainer parties should unite to ‘decapitate that blond head in Uxbridge and South Ruislip’ –

Labour shadow chancellor John McDonnell has long refused to recant a speech he gave in 2014, in which he repeated calls from activists to have then DWP minister Esther McVey ‘lynched’, to big laughs


what then should we think about this chestnut from David Lammy MP. When asked on The Andrew Marr Show if he wanted to take back a comparison he had made between the pro-Brexit Tory European Research Group and the Nazis, he said that, if anything, his comments were ‘not strong enough’.


[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTf6BwaX4AAINT5?format=jpg&name=small[/img]


I think we can make our own minds up !

Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 28th Sep 2019 9:51pm



......and I knew that Madam was up to something.

Amber Rudd : The rebels have even discussed using the legislation to give Mr Bercow the power to appoint a new British commissioner to the EU, with pro-Remain former Home Secretary Amber Rudd mentioned as a candidate.


Catch up on EU politics here : https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/World+News/International+Organisations/EU
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 29th Sep 2019 9:07am

[quote=granny]The problem is, everything has moved on a lot more. They managed to secure Mrs May's exit.

Now it's become the best way to get rid of PM Boris, bring down the Government, and put Corbyn as temporary PM. How long after that might a General Election be held ?
In the meantime, Brexit would be cancelled and we'll be left with a Marxist Government .
All calculated and being actioned with the constant dragging up of muck to throw,the Supreme Court, the inquiries into alleged wrong doings of Boris when Mayor, Farage being questioned by police about a comment he made.
Someone somewhere is really throwing this country to the wolves.

But, I remember back in the 70's when the military were on alert waiting for civil unrest. I cant; remember what it was about now, but a programme was made revealing the extent of how, where , why and when they would move into action.
I can see similar happening if things get out of hand, but unfortunately if there's a military coup or martial law, then we are all doomed. Blow me, we could all run to the EU and escape, 67million of us !!

Yes I remember the 70's as well granny, certain people wanting to overthrow a legitimate government that was in office, David Sterlings GB 75 along with others to depose alleged Communist spy and traitor Harold Wilson(poor old Harold really), even Sterling got cold feet when he realised that some from the far right wanted to go further, so much for Tory democracy, power at any price, Just watched Boris on Andrew Marr, bumbling and bluffing his way through the interview, couldn't give a straight answer, the blustering and hand gestures giving him time to think of a get out.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 29th Sep 2019 11:12am


Now you reminded me , it was Harold.

I think there was a lot more to it than that ,Casper. I do remember that his offices has been broken into and searched at one point .

Here is the account

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 29th Sep 2019 11:32am



Apparently there is a new 'Malta Agreement' been agreed this last week. Concerning redistribution of migrants throughout the EU countries. Unfortunately, Poland won't have anything to do with it, as they like Ukranians, rather than 'black', and they wish to keep their Christian cultures intact. (that must mean they don't want Muslims)
Anyway, I wonder how one country can choose, use their reason as having been under communism during the cold war, and now relish their freedom, but forget that many other countries now in the EU were also under communism during the cold war, so can they decline the Malta Agreement too.
Poland could easily agree with our exit from the EU and veto, but she won't because we benefit Poland more than Poland benefits the Poles.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...opean-union-migrant-redistribution-plan/

Universal Credit was brought about by the hope for simplification of a benefits system throughout Europe, enabling the process for EU members in other countries to be more easily processed and linked .
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 9:22am

Originally Posted by granny

Now you reminded me , it was Harold.

I think there was a lot more to it than that ,Casper. I do remember that his offices has been broken into and searched at one point .

Here is the account

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories



Frightening times granny, we now have MPs being threatened by phone this appears to only happen to opposition MP's, far right nutters probably who have attached themselves to the leave campaign, I fear there will be no happy medium for Brexit either outcome could result in civil unrest that could give an excuse for those within the establishment that would wish to intervene to further a political outcome, history repeating itself maybe?
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 11:45am

Just heard that shocking statement , Boris put his hand on my thigh!!!!!Oh Pleeeeeeeeese give me strength!!
Really scraping the barrel now!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 12:00pm



Could be correct in your assumptions, but we must also remember the abuse Esther McVey was subjected to. McVey Murderer, the Wicked Witch of Wirral , and "Why aren't we lynching the barstard?" amongst others.
Where did it all start ?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 12:06pm

Originally Posted by cools
Just heard that shocking statement , Boris put his hand on my thigh!!!!!Oh Pleeeeeeeeese give me strength!!
Really scraping the barrel now!



A new one every day, isn't it , Cools. Twenty years to decide to raise the issue ?? I think the public are becoming well aware of the insidious means being used to get rid of him.

I wonder how many touchy feely acts the same woman has embarked on over the years to enhance her career ? Works both ways.

She's Robert Peston's partner ! It does make you wonder .


[img]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...B1kyMt0B_WY_iIKNyqmXqlQ.jpeg?imwidth=450[/img]

Robert Peston's words :

The father of two, who rose to prominence through his reporting on the financial crash of 2008, also revealed he found women were "predatory" towards him because of his role as a television presenter.

'I think there is a stalky thing that happens and I think women (presenters) talk about it more than men normally. You have to be slightly careful," he said.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 6:09pm

Originally Posted by cools
Just heard that shocking statement , Boris put his hand on my thigh!!!!!Oh Pleeeeeeeeese give me strength!!
Really scraping the barrel now!


Many women have come forward years after an assault, if it happened then it should be investigated what about all the abuse committed years ago by members of the clergy, if it was your daughter/ granddaughter ( or even son these days) then you would want justice, a lot of these abusers have been getting away with this behaviour for years, and now fob it off, Trump being an example, personally Boris wouldn't get a feel of my coat.
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 7:02pm

We’re talking about hand on the thigh here Casper hardly an assault...I’m pretty fed up of all this nonsense by women making minor things out to be more than what they were, man chancing his luck! And 20 years later , ridiculous! I’m of an age where this happened on buses , trains and anywhere else pervy creeps thought they could do it , they always got short shrift from me and shamed . That was it not nice but nothing to dwell on, told them where to go , over!
We all know why she’s decided to come out with this and don’t get me wrong I’m not a lover of Boris indeed all of them p me off at the moment I don’t know what’s going to happen but if you going to try and bring him down pick something better than that. ....I wonder if you would have been so outraged if it had been Corbyn!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 8:50pm



Well, I was accused of scare mongering not so long ago.. What do people make of this ?


Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 9:08pm

God it’s frightening isn’t it Granny...I can quite believe it of those scheming megalomaniacs EU lot...I don’t trust them one bit.. two world wars with Germany and yet they still may win...our ancestors will be turning in their graves all for nought....
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 30th Sep 2019 9:37pm

Originally Posted by cools
God it’s frightening isn’t it Granny...I can quite believe it of those scheming megalomaniacs EU lot...I don’t trust them one bit.. two world wars with Germany and yet they still may win...our ancestors will be turning in their graves all for nought....


Goodness knows what's going on and yes it is scary, Cools. Germany had the worlds biggest intelligence HQ opened in Berlin , Feb this year.
14,000 windows and 12,000 doors and size of 36 football pitches ! Not bad for a country that was decimated 70 yrs ago !


With regard to your previous post, I'm with you all the way. I bet there isn't a guy on Wiki who can honestly say that he hasn't groped a boob, a leg or a bottom of a woman when he was younger, and taking that into account, who knows what position they would hold in the future, and who knows which ordinary women will start to retrace their old boyfriends and start a marathon of accusations . It doesn't stop with the big names, once the ball starts to roll .
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 1st Oct 2019 8:20am

Originally Posted by granny


Well, I was accused of scare mongering not so long ago.. What do people make of this ?








You don't actually believe this do you granny? it is without doubt a load of old bollocks, the guy is a Walter Mitty.

@ cools Yes I would have been outraged at Corbyn or anybody else, who or what you are or represent doesn't give a right to do as you please, and women or for that matter men who could see their careers affected if they speak out tend to keep quiet, a whole different set of circumstances to the dirty tickets on the bus and train, and yes if we are seeing someone the circumstances change again, horses for courses, as in most cases people speak out when the perpetrators are in the media's glare, look at the prince Andrew thing or many other cases, Saville, the clergy, football coaches, turn the stone over and all the rot is exposed, Boris is no different, its not about stay or leave, its about the character of a man that is in a position of power, and at the moment is doing his very best act of deny deny deny.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Oct 2019 6:26pm

Simon Bean, as seen in the video has apologised and withdrawn his statement regarding the European army, no letters were received confirmed by the Generals involved, scaremongering of the worst kind, this guy stands on the same platform as the far right nutters.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 5th Oct 2019 9:52pm

Originally Posted by casper
Simon Bean, as seen in the video has apologised and withdrawn his statement regarding the European army, no letters were received confirmed by the Generals involved, scaremongering of the worst kind, this guy stands on the same platform as the far right nutters.



Far from a total denial, he stated ...

Quote
I need to make a public apology to General Riley and Admiral Sir Roger Lane-Nott. They did not receive any letters but rather they received details at a meeting at the Royal United Services Institute. It is believed that commitments and assurances have been made by Government figures to the EU. Who has made these commitments and what are they?

Since last night’s stream things have gone bonkers. I implore veterans and the public to keep things non-violent and we need an urgent dialogue with Boris Johnson and Defence Minister Ben Wallace over EU Defence Unification.

If Bercow becomes interim PM we as a nation are finished.


Furthermore, in response Admiral Sir Roger Lane-Nott stated ....

Quote
I am not going into Parliament with Gen Reilly. Veterans for Britain has been warning about the EU Defence Union and the under the table agreements made by the May Government for some time. No Parliamentary Scrutiny from MPs or Defence Select Committee.


You can see what Lt Gen Jonathon Riley said about a month ago on this subject HERE
Posted By: muzzy2

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Oct 2019 9:35am

I find all this terrifying and so confusing. Having seen this video, just who do we believe? I do not understand all these committees and everything with capital letters without having to look each one up. Also just how many of the general public would be aware of all this?
Regarding handing all our defence and security over on the 31st October, would this be happening if Brexit was cancelled or we left with no deal? Had all this been arranged long before Brexit anyway? How can anyone vote to remain if they know all this could happen! I just wish we had someone who could tell us just what's going on in plain English, for everyone who wants to stay English before it's too late, but I think it probably is too late already!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Oct 2019 4:39pm

Your not supposed to understand any of it, it is just a smoke-screen to put you off trying to understand what is going on.

What is really going on is the general policy (globally) of keep the "erks" under control and poor.

This Government has spent more money than any other Government by a long long way. Yet It is very difficult to find where that money went, almost everything you have heard of has had cuts, yet that money went somewhere!

Coming up to election time and they are offering back 10% of those cuts as a bribe, what happened to the other 90%? What happened to the huge amount of extra money they borrowed?
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 6th Oct 2019 6:37pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
Simon Bean, as seen in the video has apologised and withdrawn his statement regarding the European army, no letters were received confirmed by the Generals involved, scaremongering of the worst kind, this guy stands on the same platform as the far right nutters.



Far from a total denial, he stated ...

Quote
I need to make a public apology to General Riley and Admiral Sir Roger Lane-Nott. They did not receive any letters but rather they received details at a meeting at the Royal United Services Institute. It is believed that commitments and assurances have been made by Government figures to the EU. Who has made these commitments and what are they?

Since last night’s stream things have gone bonkers. I implore veterans and the public to keep things non-violent and we need an urgent dialogue with Boris Johnson and Defence Minister Ben Wallace over EU Defence Unification.

If Bercow becomes interim PM we as a nation are finished.


Furthermore, in response Admiral Sir Roger Lane-Nott stated ....

Quote
I am not going into Parliament with Gen Reilly. Veterans for Britain has been warning about the EU Defence Union and the under the table agreements made by the May Government for some time. No Parliamentary Scrutiny from MPs or Defence Select Committee.


You can see what Lt Gen Jonathon Riley said about a month ago on this subject HERE


Simon Bean was mischief making with his video, he is a UKIP supporter and has stood on the same platform as Tommy (Yaxley Lennon) Robinson, he (Bean) threatened to close down ports at Dover and cause disruption in London with his imaginary army of 40,000 veterans and threatens unrest if we don't leave, and these are the people that tout the word democracy in every sentence,whilst waving the union flag, shades of the 1970's with army chiefs putting in their two penn'orth, a dangerous mix of the military and the far right.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 7:15am

Originally Posted by casper
Simon Bean was mischief making with his video, he is a UKIP supporter and has stood on the same platform as Tommy (Yaxley Lennon) Robinson, he (Bean) threatened to close down ports at Dover and cause disruption in London with his imaginary army of 40,000 veterans and threatens unrest if we don't leave, and these are the people that tout the word democracy in every sentence,whilst waving the union flag, shades of the 1970's with army chiefs putting in their two penn'orth, a dangerous mix of the military and the far right.


No, Simon Bean and many others are people who know how many lives were thrown away to keep our country's sovereignty and independence.

Germany might be having a slight hiccup at the moment (planned or otherwise) but I can guarantee they will come back to dominate the EU again.

How can you justify being in the EU to anyone who lost relatives in WW1 or WW2. It is not like the EU is a peace-keeping entity, it run by war mongers the same as most leaders in this world.

The common factor throughout is the creation of a bipartite society, the rich rulers and the rest. Any Government that allows a failing company to award its leader £40m for failing is a corrupt Government.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 8:36am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by casper
Simon Bean was mischief making with his video, he is a UKIP supporter and has stood on the same platform as Tommy (Yaxley Lennon) Robinson, he (Bean) threatened to close down ports at Dover and cause disruption in London with his imaginary army of 40,000 veterans and threatens unrest if we don't leave, and these are the people that tout the word democracy in every sentence,whilst waving the union flag, shades of the 1970's with army chiefs putting in their two penn'orth, a dangerous mix of the military and the far right.


No, Simon Bean and many others are people who know how many lives were thrown away to keep our country's sovereignty and independence.

Germany might be having a slight hiccup at the moment (planned or otherwise) but I can guarantee they will come back to dominate the EU again.

How can you justify being in the EU to anyone who lost relatives in WW1 or WW2. It is not like the EU is a peace-keeping entity, it run by war mongers the same as most leaders in this world.

The common factor throughout is the creation of a bipartite society, the rich rulers and the rest. Any Government that allows a failing company to award its leader £40m for failing is a corrupt Government.


I agree DD the UK being one of the biggest warmongers amongst those you mentioned, and yes I served in Germany and I know the cost I have family buried in France, and in the Atlantic, a brother in law killed in Aden and a friend lost on RFA Sir Gallahad, so I don't need a lecture on the cost of war, the biggest criminals are those in power that use us as pawns in their war games while raking in the cash and those that profess to be patriots amongst them members of the Royal Family and Lords that were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis but will always be at the back of the queue when it comes to paying the full price,
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 9:33am

Originally Posted by casper


the biggest criminals are those in power that use us as pawns in their war games while raking in the cash and those that profess to be patriots amongst them members of the Royal Family and Lords that were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis but will always be at the back of the queue when it comes to paying the full price,


Are you saying our Royal Family supported the Nazi's ? No they did not.

Considering you make those accusations, how is it you are happy to remain 'in bed' with the Germany of today(the biggest criminals of all) ?
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 12:13pm

Here here Granny x
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 1:27pm

Originally Posted by granny
Originally Posted by casper


the biggest criminals are those in power that use us as pawns in their war games while raking in the cash and those that profess to be patriots amongst them members of the Royal Family and Lords that were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis but will always be at the back of the queue when it comes to paying the full price,


Are you saying our Royal Family supported the Nazi's ? No they did not.

Considering you make those accusations, how is it you are happy to remain 'in bed' with the Germany of today(the biggest criminals of all) ?







Whoa granny were did I state I was in bed with Germany? I said I served in BAOR as many others did, some even married German girls ( the biggest criminals of them all )they are human beings with hopes and fears the same as us

Prince Edward was a known Nazi sympathiser aIong with his wife and many other peers were put under surveillance due to Nazi sympathies, he was a member of the Royal family was he not?

I am also a bit p'd off being branded a traitor or remoaner because I used my democratic right to vote for my preference, I do not call leaver's names, they made their choice also and are entitled to their opinion I have as much right to stand under the union flag as those that wrap themselves in it and use it as a symbol of their patriotism.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 2:08pm

That is the point, the EU is an entity that is little to do with the innocent population, its an unnecessary political entity run by the very people we don't want running our affairs, that is much the same as our own Government and many others but having two Governments in our hierarchy makes even less sense. Furthermore, if the national and EU Government have different policies, the EU trumps the national Government. The absolute power of Veto disappeared with the Lisbon Treaty which incidentally also introduced the supposed right to leave the EU which has since been shown to be a double edged saw.

Virtually all EU good "laws" could have come about with agreement but without the need to make the EU and this would have allowed the personalisation that each country needs. How is it possible to have the same currency with such disparate nations, how is it possible to have common policy between industrial nations, agricultural nations and tourist nations, you can't, it will always be biased towards the richest or most powerful nation at the expense of the others. The EU is not about commonality, it's policies promote division and eventual destruction of countries within the EU.

I fail to see how giving the country's independence and power away to another entity against the democratic wish of the people cannot be called traitorous? They may not be a traitor to the Government, they may not be a traitor to themselves but surely they are traitors to the nation?

We never voted to join the EU, we never voted to join the common market, we never voted on the Lisbon treaty but we have voted to leave the EU.

Perhaps we should leave the same way as we joined, leave and then have a referendum after two years, if that system was good enough to join then the EU should accept that it is good enough to leave (or not).
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 3:40pm

Exactly DD we never were given the chance to vote when we joined we never voted on the Lisbon treaty but all of a sudden we now have democracy when it suits, these choices were made for us ( the good of the country) allegedly, it chokes me to use or hear the word democracy, as if we really had it !!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 4:32pm

Originally Posted by casper
Originally Posted by granny
Originally Posted by casper


the biggest criminals are those in power that use us as pawns in their war games while raking in the cash and those that profess to be patriots amongst them members of the Royal Family and Lords that were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis but will always be at the back of the queue when it comes to paying the full price,


Are you saying our Royal Family supported the Nazi's ? No they did not.

Considering you make those accusations, how is it you are happy to remain 'in bed' with the Germany of today(the biggest criminals of all) ?




Whoa granny were did I state I was in bed with Germany? I said I served in BAOR as many others did, some even married German girls ( the biggest criminals of them all )they are human beings with hopes and fears the same as us

Prince Edward was a known Nazi sympathiser aIong with his wife and many other peers were put under surveillance due to Nazi sympathies, he was a member of the Royal family was he not?

I am also a bit p'd off being branded a traitor or remoaner because I used my democratic right to vote for my preference, I do not call leaver's names, they made their choice also and are entitled to their opinion I have as much right to stand under the union flag as those that wrap themselves in it and use it as a symbol of their patriotism.



Who has branded you a traitor or remoaner ? I haven't seen that anywhere and nobody has called you names. ( we wouldn't do that ,Casper old chum)
My inference to you wanting to remain 'in bed with Germany' IS directly connected to you wishing to stay as part of the EU, but you seem unable to see how the Germany of today is still on a path of control with the recently named 'project' as it is now being referred to . What is a project other than in this case, further integration of all member states to diminish and destroy any national patriotism for one main purpose ? As Blair once said EU is not about peace it is about power ! He being one of the most influential and powerful behind closed doors to get his own way to benefit all the other types you have accused of being the biggest criminals ! So to me your view that staying in the EU goes against all your principles you mention.
When you say the members of the Royal Family were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis (albeit one Royal who met Hitler in 1937 and shook his hand, by which point he had already abdicated) it would indicate that you are opposed to German infiltration.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 5:49pm


[/quote]

Who has branded you a traitor or remoaner ? I haven't seen that anywhere and nobody has called you names. ( we wouldn't do that ,Casper old chum)
My inference to you wanting to remain 'in bed with Germany' IS directly connected to you wishing to stay as part of the EU, but you seem unable to see how the Germany of today is still on a path of control with the recently named 'project' as it is now being referred to . What is a project other than in this case, further integration of all member states to diminish and destroy any national patriotism for one main purpose ? As Blair once said EU is not about peace it is about power ! He being one of the most influential and powerful behind closed doors to get his own way to benefit all the other types you have accused of being the biggest criminals ! So to me your view that staying in the EU goes against all your principles you mention.
When you say the members of the Royal Family were ready to jump into bed with the Nazis (albeit one Royal who met Hitler in 1937 and shook his hand, by which point he had already abdicated) it would indicate that you are opposed to German infiltration.

[/quote]

Yes I see what you meant, DD also explained, I took it a bit personal naughty me, I'am afraid it was a bit more than a handshake that Prince Edward shared with Hitler, there is lots of info regarding this some that may never come to light (to save embarrassment to the Royal Family) even talk of a plot for the Nazi's to install him as a puppet King albeit unproven, but without doubt he was moved to the Bahamas following advice from MI5. and no one on here has called me a traitor a remoaner yes, I have spent some time researching far right fascist groups who seem to think they are the saviours of the UK and it really got up my nose that this ... claim to represent our country, anyway enough of all this , do you still love me? smile
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 7th Oct 2019 9:15pm

Dear Casper, of course I love you.. did you ever dare doubt my affections ? wink


One more thing .. chuckle, chuckle.

Germany , going back to the 1870's a period known as the second industrial revolution , they set up a scheme of rapid industrialisation which led to 'integration' in the Foreign Direct Investment.

The Foreign Direct Investment was an investment in the form of a controlling ownership in a business in one country by an entity based in another country.

So in my opinion, and I could be wrong , Germany have always had this ambition, which now seems to be paying off (hopefully without us), although they do own or have control over a huge number of businesses and industries in this country already, and every other country too. The very reason our mines were closed, as to become a member of the EU, we had to integrate our coal and steel industries so that production was controlled by a central administration, notably Germany and France . They said it would prevent another war ... Ha,ha, poor excuse to take control and make our mines redundant. Slowly ,slowly the long arms are gathering up one thing after another, and what's more, we have paid for the bloody privilege .

Now I'm quite sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, but so far as I understand things, that's how it has and will continue to work in Europe.

And another thing.... Trump pulled out of Syria, he's said that it's up to Turkey .Syria, Russia, Iraq ,Iran and Europe to sort it out now. What the jiggery pokery has Europe got to do with it ? We need to be careful because it could feasibly explode into a nasty situation and if it spills over into Turkey, which I suspect it could do, then Europe will be in , without any choice .


Nighty night, Casper. Shhhhhhh ! I don't want Dilly getting jealous
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 8th Oct 2019 12:11am

You've missed the obvious FDI granny, the asset stripping of Greece, which country is next?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 9th Oct 2019 9:47am



The way things are going.. us probably.

Merkel put the kibosh on another deal. Maybe that's a deliberate move so Germany are not likely to have to bail Ireland out again (on their own) .
I think she's just handed a 'no deal' to UK. and then Ireland can make their own arrangements. Another way of the EU kicking the can down the road for someone else.

I can see masses of suicides in the not too distant future with all of this. I for one ,will feel like doing myself in if then we don't leave.

Greater than that, if it doesn't happen, there will be more than Extinction Rebellion on the streets of this country , and every MP who voted against Brexit, when their constituents voted for it, will need to hold their heads in shame for turning our people from a democratic vote to a game of individual personal gain in the HoC's.

All our MP's are a disgrace, they have brought Parliament into disrepute and bare no resemblance to high standing officials to whom we should at least have some respect !
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 9th Oct 2019 10:28am



This is getting ridiculous. Scottish Courts deciding whether or not the courts can send a letter to delay Brexit instead of the PM.

What good will a delay do ? I bet there's some tiny clause which an eagle eyed poisonous dwarf has spotted, to stop the whole process.

We can almost guarantee that the Queens Speech vote will not be passed by Parliament. Attempting to force Boris into resignation, although he is not obliged to resign. If he did,,, well I wonder who is likely to stand in his place ? Maybe that's what Mrs Merkel and the EU are hoping for and then to change direction of all things .

Anarchy in Parliament is not good, but led by Corbyn and fairly typical of todays present mind- set,-- out on the streets which is where he does best.
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 9th Oct 2019 10:29am

Originally Posted by granny




All our MP's are a disgrace, they have brought Parliament into disrepute and bare no resemblance to high standing officials to whom we should at least have some respect !



If nothing else it has turned the spotlight on the shambles that is Government, the veneer of respectability, responsibility and the outdated practices, we now have the bare bones,squabbling children name calling each other, they have managed to do more damage to the credibility of this country, all that is missing is fisticuffs, the illusion of a Great Britain, Big Ben, bobbies on bicycles two by two has been replaced by demonstrations and protests, as you say granny so depressing.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Oct 2019 10:58pm


According to the BBC , Boris and Leo Varadkar met in 'Cheshire ' today. If they can't get that right, what do they get right ? Laura Keunsberg explained it in her cynical fashion, as a Tudor building built in the 19th century, where Colleen Rooney got married.

Anyway, that's not of importance, but Leo seems to be giving a glimmer of hope after the talks today , but I don't think this is to be taken as a serious hope.
My view is, he will string Boris (and the rest of us) along until the final hour, but it will not be finalised by 31st October which will mean an extension , and in that period of time, the talks will fail again, and there will have been a General Election, in the hope of starting all over again and remaining in the EU .

Remember my words,...

Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 10th Oct 2019 11:43pm

Originally Posted by granny
Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Wasn't it in London with David Sassoli, the European Parliament President which is the equivalent role of the House of Commons Speaker? Despite the media hype, two speakers talking to each other doesn't sound that wrong or unusual.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 8:32am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by granny
Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Wasn't it in London with David Sassoli, the European Parliament President which is the equivalent role of the House of Commons Speaker? Despite the media hype, two speakers talking to each other doesn't sound that wrong or unusual.


Yes, correct. It was the new President which makes no difference to the problem of Bercow stepping out of his remit of being impartial . Which ever it is, according to the media it would appear that they have discussed various aspects of Brexit, and that is not for Bercow to do.
Maybe he was snuggling up for a new job in the EU Parliament. There won't be one here for him and that man is clearly unhinged. As many others would appear to be also.

The latest unhinged big gun on the political stage is Erdogan. He reminds me of Hitler. Apparently Naples and Barcelona have blocked check-ins for Turkish Airlines.. now that makes sense instead of voices from the dark saying,, "we don't like what you are doing, you must stop it , Mr Erdogan, and stop right now, you naughty boy "
Posted By: casper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 9:25am

Originally Posted by granny
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by granny
Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Wasn't it in London with David Sassoli, the European Parliament President which is the equivalent role of the House of Commons Speaker? Despite the media hype, two speakers talking to each other doesn't sound that wrong or unusual.


Yes, correct. It was the new President which makes no difference to the problem of Bercow stepping out of his remit of being impartial . Which ever it is, according to the media it would appear that they have discussed various aspects of Brexit, and that is not for Bercow to do.
Maybe he was snuggling up for a new job in the EU Parliament. There won't be one here for him and that man is clearly unhinged. As many others would appear to be also.

The latest unhinged big gun on the political stage is Erdogan. He reminds me of Hitler. Apparently Naples and Barcelona have blocked check-ins for Turkish Airlines.. now that makes sense instead of voices from the dark saying,, "we don't like what you are doing, you must stop it , Mr Erdogan, and stop right now, you naughty boy "





And if Europe carries on criticizing us we will flood you with refugees, nice man, Trump has done the dirty on Syria which leaves us with the possibility of the ISIS prisoners escaping, another fine mess.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 9:26am

Originally Posted by granny
Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZPTZuwwHng
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 12:45pm

Sorry but I know what I would have liked doing to those Isis ... and that is get rid of them all in one go for once and for all,,,I'll leave it to your imagination , many ways to do it!!! Sod human rights and all did they give any thought to their hostages who they beheaded, NO!!! Another thing that I hate is calling them , The Beatles,,what an insult to our group, I would have objected if I were Paul or Ringo....
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 2:36pm

Originally Posted by cools
Sorry but I know what I would have liked doing to those Isis ... and that is get rid of them all in one go for once and for all,,,I'll leave it to your imagination , many ways to do it!!! Sod human rights and all did they give any thought to their hostages who they beheaded, NO!!! Another thing that I hate is calling them , The Beatles,,what an insult to our group, I would have objected if I were Paul or Ringo....


But if you reverse that and were a country that had many other countries interfering and invading your land you end up with exactly the same statement and that is what happened. We should stop warmongering, invading and destroying other nations.

Trying to impose our standards on countries that are in a different stage or type of development to our own is never going to work, it is always going to create a mess. Its not that long ago that what we now consider atrocities were carried out in this country.

We go around bombing countries that we aren't at war with - does that make any sense?

Generally strict regimes come about because countries need it, wiping out those regimes just leaves total instability.
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 2:50pm

I agree DD , Gaddaffi and Saddam Hussein were monsters but they did keep control , a huge mistake to get involved in middle east etc it's just one nightmare situation...
What's to become of those Isis fighters now though , they will regroup and all start over again in strength, I would have liked them gone for ever ...
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 3:04pm

Originally Posted by Gibbo
Originally Posted by granny
Why on earth was John Bercow having private meetings with Junker yesterday ?


Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZPTZuwwHng


Hahaha ! Not a smile on his unfortunate face.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 3:36pm

Originally Posted by cools
I agree DD , Gaddaffi and Saddam Hussein were monsters but they did keep control , a huge mistake to get involved in middle east etc it's just one nightmare situation...
What's to become of those Isis fighters now though , they will regroup and all start over again in strength, I would have liked them gone for ever ...


There are still ISIS members and groups affiliated to them active in Syria.
US , UK, France should have made it clear what they were up to from the word go. They obviously wanted to bring down Assad, the Syrian Kurds although protected by Assad wanted their own Governance in N.E.Syria. The Turkish Kurds are according to Erdogan terrorists, and closely linked with Syrian Kurds. The SDF are the fighting force of the Syrian Kurds; SDF were trying to bring down Assad, (as West were allies in such).; SDF and West were trying to rid NE Syria of ISIS, whilst Assad rid the rest of the country of them; and now the West have pulled out and left them to wallow in their own muck.
Assad will not now protect the Syrian Kurds as he has called them traitors to their own country, butt it looks like Assad will try to regain the land that Turkey is now invading.

Understand ??? What was it all about in the first instance . Young Assad was thought highly of by his own people in most places, and still is, (his father and wife were not, she is still alive ) . There had been severe drought for a few years and the people from the countryside were moving into the towns. The Kurds came in from the mountainous regions but once the trouble started it was Turkey that supported the Free Syrian Army, who were Syrian Arab Army military defectors and TURKEY WAS HAPPY TO ALLOW AT ONE OF THE ONLY PLACES WHERE ISIS RECRUITS COULD CROSS THE BORER INTO SYRIA. When Iraq was liberated the ISIS members went north of MOSUL towards TURKEY and probably crossed into Turkey, I doubt they could have gone backwards.
So I see Turkey in it up to their sweet little necks and I wouldn't put anything past them.
Israel have also had a part to play. We don't hear much about the 200 bombing raids they have done on Syria, but they have , until in the last couple of weeks,when Russia have put the cards on the table.... so now Turkey takes up the baton.
Why did SDF, stick with US ? Because they were paid highly, whilst in places like Aleppo, people were being paid NOT to go to work, resulting in the partial breakdown of the economy and a way of recruiting more. Who was paying them NOT to go to work ... ?
Now the charities want the public to raise funds to help these poor people with rebuilding their infrastructure.
Charities that host names such as Soros and Milliband.
It's like a game of poker ............. and the bottom line is, loss of lives human misery, and mental anguish that will never leave those children who have been faced with and witnessed the trauma inflicted. Even hardened soldiers suffer mental health issues from what they see and deal with. Some of those Syrian babies are 8/9 yrs of age. Another 8/9 yrs they will be taking revenge, somewhere, I have no doubt about that.


Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 9:52pm

omg Turkey have bombed US Special Forces in Northern Syria

and US have sent 3000 military to Saudi Arabia.


(wrong topic, sorry DD but it's just following on the previous. )
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 11th Oct 2019 10:12pm

Originally Posted by granny
US have sent 3000 military to Saudi Arabia.


Iran next?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 12th Oct 2019 10:40pm



So, Kier Starmer thinks there should be another referendum.
He says as :
a) Do you want to accept this deal ?
b) Do you want to stay in the EU ?


NO, NO, NO , Mr Starmer... we have already voted to leave the EU

a) Do you want to accept this deal ?
b) Do you want to leave with NO deal ?
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 18th Oct 2019 7:06am


These are our 'politicians', they are all becoming a laughing stock.

This has to be one of the best ever . She hadn't even read the proposed Withdrawal Agreement at this point !


https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-is-forced-to-correct-lib-dem-brexit/
Posted By: cools

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 19th Oct 2019 3:30pm

And so it goes on and on and on and on!!!!!!!!! When will it end ? I don’t think whatever deal is presented , it could be a great deal but I just don’t think we will ever leave stinking EU mafia ... All this will have been for nothing, beam me up Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 19th Oct 2019 4:42pm

Originally Posted by cools
And so it goes on and on and on and on!!!!!!!!! When will it end ? I don’t think whatever deal is presented , it could be a great deal but I just don’t think we will ever leave stinking EU mafia ... All this will have been for nothing, beam me up Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!


I think the same Cools. Everything is positioned to overturn the 2016 referendum. If that does happen, the country will be the worse off in the long run, well for a generation at least. Those who voted will never vote again IMO, and the youngsters aren't interested.

I don't understand why the rhetoric about 'workers rights' keeps getting banded about as an issue . Maybe someone can explain because 'workers rights' can surely be altered , changed, upgraded, or whatever once we can have our own jurisdiction, laws, rules, sovereignty and anything else we will secure, by leaving the EU ?

Please explain , someone .
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 19th Oct 2019 8:29pm

Originally Posted by granny
I don't understand why the rhetoric about 'workers rights' keeps getting banded about as an issue . Maybe someone can explain because 'workers rights' can surely be altered , changed, upgraded, or whatever once we can have our own jurisdiction, laws, rules, sovereignty and anything else we will secure, by leaving the EU ?

Please explain , someone .


Yep, project fear kicking in again. Our workers rights progressed quite well compared to most of Europe before we joined the EU (ECC or whatever).

I wonder how long before the media start stating that the Government could start charging window tax again?

We need one Government who are directly answerable to the people.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 20th Oct 2019 7:42am

The Labour Party commuted suicide yesterday with senior leaders (excluding Corbyn) coming out in favour of remain.

You can’t be a principled Democratic Party and go against a democratic result when it suits you.

Worse still, this has opened the door for another four years of tories robbing money from the worlds fifth richest nation.

Well done McDonnell, Abbott and Thorrnberry, you out manoeuvred yourselves instead of following your leader who stood a chance of winning an election.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 20th Oct 2019 9:18am


Thanks for reply on 'worker's rights' DD

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The Labour Party commuted suicide yesterday with senior leaders (excluding Corbyn) coming out in favour of remain.

You can’t be a principled Democratic Party and go against a democratic result when it suits you.

Worse still, this has opened the door for another four years of tories robbing money from the worlds fifth richest nation.

Well done McDonnell, Abbott and Thorrnberry, you out manoeuvred yourselves instead of following your leader who stood a chance of winning an election.



Purely for face value and obstinacy some of these people have got themselves into such a corner, they have little to no way of wriggling out now, making themselves look stupid. Corbyn is in that mix too. They have to keep up the pretence.


There is of course, many who have spouses with vested interests and top jobs in the EU network of one degree or another. Many of whom WILL lose their jobs. Are these the jobs that Corbyn keeps batting on about, along with 'worker's rights' ? If so, I couldn't give a monkey's about that corrupt brigade in Brussels losing their jobs.

Not sure what you mean about the Tories robbing money. If you refer to the Austerity of the UK , which we did actually come through better than other EU countries, well the whole of the EU has also had the Austerity pinned on it for the last 10 yrs.
That was not a political issue, that was recovery position. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176

Many have a personal interest IMO, and others will now be wondering what the next step on the promotion ladder might be. No jobs in Brussels or the EU Parliament for them now. Maybe we will get back to true politicians rather than 'career politicians' who cosy up for the next job.

There were a few more besides the three you mention, who showed their contempt for the 'democratic vote' of the people .
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 20th Oct 2019 3:38pm

Austerity was only 10% of the money that was handed to the rich few, the other 90% was primarily funded by the ridiculous amount of money the Government borrowed. We have come out of the austerity very poorly, as a nation we might be rich but the average person has lost a lot. Both personal debt and national debt is continuing to escalate.

There was never any need for the austerity program in the UK, it was an invention to undermine the general population. Gordon Brown had done a fantastic job as Chancellor in minimising the effect of the global recession.

Corbyn as a person is a leaver however he has had no choice as a democratic leader but to follow the choice of his party.

Conference (and hence party policy) is against remain. These three cowboys are undermining the whole party and its socialist principals. The previous stance of the party was somewhat confusing, that has now changed to being untenable. TBH I expected better of McDonnell, the other two are irrelevant.
Posted By: granny

Re: Defend Democracy Protests - 22nd Oct 2019 9:33pm


Ah well... to the lot of them lamethrower

Brexit Party , here we come !
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