Seems that the free licences for pensioners WILL end next June, except for those receiving pension credit.

It would be much fairer to limit the free licence to people born before 1945, that way the free licence wouldn't be taken off anybody but any new 75+ year olds will have to pay.

I find it difficult to believe that the BBC have sole choice in this matter?

Google 'bbc tv licence' for full details.

I find it difficult to believe that the BBC can justify astronomical salaries but find it easy to end the free licences . We don't have to pay a BBC licence fee , so I understand . Apparently if we just watch programmes on iPlayer, we don't need a license fee. OK for those of us with a laptop etc. but many pensioners who might be just a couple of £'s above the pension credit limit, in many cases probably don't have the facility of internet .
They've also probably experienced the same as most of us with a hike in council tax and energy costs.

We'll all be voting for euthanasia next. What's the point of trying to keep going when all the odds are stacked against the basics .

These days you need to register and sign in to watch Iplayer. They ask if you have a license but don't ask for license number............. yet!

Not any longer,

You also need a licence to watch any live program from any broadcaster.

You need a licence to watch any BBC programs whether live or not on iplayer.

You can watch non-BBC, non-live programs without a licence.

It is unclear whether you need a licence to watch a non-live BBC program that is not through iplayer, eg on youtube

Thanks, I'm pleased you've cleared that up.

I know of a couple of people (not personally) who said that's what they do, so maybe they have got away with it so far,... don't know.

Its not that long ago that they introduced the requirement to have a licence for BBC catchup (Iplayer). Before then all catchups didn't require a licence.

Need a comma there or it looks like BBC programs on Netflix/Youtube need a licence.

You have changed my statement but kept it as a quote. Which is misleading.

No, the comma shouldn’t be there, that makes it vague, it is an absolute statement without but the sentence would be better if re-arranged.

I can now correct my other statement and say watching catch-up BBC from anything other than iPlayer does not need a licence, this would appear to be a bizarre arrangement. I can only presume the BBC can claim that anything from iplayer is being broadcast live as a repeat by themselves.

I didn't think the licence was anything to do with the BBC. It is actually a licence to own television receiving apparatus. and you need it to watch television from ANY provider, not just the BBC.

Personally, I'm quite pleased they've introduced it. I can afford to pay it and it is just another nail in the tories' coffin at the next election. They truly are a very nasty party indeed. Selfish, stupid and incompetent.

The licence is not about "owning a TV" its about "using" a TV or such devices to watch broadcasts. The 9 years worth of licence reminder letters at the back of my filing cabinet remind me of that. I think the BBC are losing revenue because the numbers of non licence payers is on the increase. The licence inspectors say they visit unlicensed home every 6 seconds (use to be 5 seconds...slacking!). Not had a licence for 40 years and so disappointed they have not called.

It turns out the Government used to pay the BBC for the free TV licenses but now don't under a deal made in 2015.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33414693

I don't think the BBC should be applying means tests to its viewers.

The government should be paying for those entitled for free licences, not the Beeb, and they, the government, should run the scheme. They are simply evading their responsibility.

We really do need to get shot of this lot! Even by Conservative party standards, they are rubbish!

We should not forget that BBC received funding and has done for a number of years from the EU. They seem to be able to take money from all sides and use it for high wages. They certainly don't do much in the way of programmes other than foreign documentaries of air flight over the Sahara desert.. for example. !
Oh and NEWS, political programmes every which way , with high salaried presenters telling us how it should be through they eyes of the BBC, that has always sided with the EU..

Was the EU gaining control of our media ? I believe there is a very definite YES we only have to see how much news is NOT reported on the BBC in relation to what they don't want us to know. Where do the guidelines come from ?

BBC should be able to fund it themselves. When the EU fund something , that something loses control, as with farm subsidies where the EU have control of what is grown on that land... so indirectly it's their land. Same applies in many areas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...oups-seeking-state-control-of-press.html

When you go abroad to countries with only commercial TV stations you see the difference the BBC makes to our television quality across all our channels.

When you look at the price of Sky TV and pay-per-view television it gives you a hint of what would happen without a (comparatively cheap) TV licence system.

The cheapest Sky TV package is £264 a year.

Saying that, I haven't bought a TV licence for ten years or so.

Maybe so, but It has also been said by people who live in other countries that the BBC do not report the truth. I assume that is the world service.

You find any media organisation that is universally claimed to tell the truth, at least the BBC costs less to be lied to?

Theres a brilliant docufilm ( only on the net , rare ) called "911 incontravertable " by tony rooke.
Mr rooke didnt pay his licence saying " cause they fund terrorism , such as telling us WT7 had fallen on 911 live before it did .
Bbc took him to court. Hes wasnt fined & never has paid since.
Says alot. Like the old guy who went against the official narrative about 7/ 7 . Went to court. He produced evidence to show the changed bus routes on the day and trains etc weirdly no cctv worked despite london being choc full of cctv.
There was a " terror threat exercise " on that day too. Strange that.
Anyway no charges where full filled.

That is misleading representation of the outcome of Tony Rooke's case, he lost his case so had to pay £200 costs and got a 6 month conditional discharge. This is a lenient sentence but it was still a sentence.

£200 is nothing. Less than a years licence fee. The REAL issue is he didnt pay on purpose & continues. Youd get more if you drank in the street.
Im quite sure the bully bbc wanted to whack him in court like the 7/7 old guy.
This forum really annoyingly concentrates on the miniscule & not the overall wider picture.
Very much like society who dont like or know historical facts & are distracted . Or dont want to know them.
Someone went on about not sayin nazi just german in another thread but in 1917 after the 1st WW i doubt people in britain liked germans / nazis whatever & saw them as one. Its not important.
The point was the queens lineage IS german.

Elizabeth's mother just happened to be of Scottish decent . Elizabeth's parents and all four grandparents were born in England and
people like to say the Royal Family is German. When Queen Anne died, the throne passed to the House of Hanover, which is German. But the Hanovers were not just any German family. The Hanovers were descendants of the Stuarts, a dynasty from Scotland. And the Stuarts came to the throne because they in turn were descendants of the Tudors, who were from Wales.

OK ?

Really svenlock68, you accuse the BBC, yet you have given misleading or wrong information in many of you posts, it was me who corrected your statement about the Royal Family, you just can't turn a German into a Nazi or change a time in history to suit your purpose because that distorts history and the truth, so yes it is important that we get our facts right, many of those that contribute on here go to great lengths to make sure their information is correct as this benefits us all,its not the X files.

No granny
Grandparents ....princess alex of denmark
Francis duke of teck
Mary of cambridge ALL german danish .
Youre cherry pickin.
Its dead funny people banging on about the war etc
Yet look at the saxe gothaburg dynasty.
Its the same as charles pays no tax cause hes duchy of cornwall but he does cause it looks bad.
Theyre as self interested as the rest of us. People put them on higher ground for some stupid reason

I don't know why you have so much hatred in you . You will never be any higher than where you are now, neither will I, but I do have a heritage and it's called appreciation and respect. Maybe you don't, you jealous little trump.

With regard to the BBC, why are they showing unproven footage such as this. A disgrace and brings back memories of Colin Powell showing us the movement of vehicles supposedly carrying WMD's Remember ?

This appears to be so fake.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

Ha ha its not hatred...i just dont follow the sheep . I dont follow what they want me to think or know

Jealous of the royal family....ha i wouldnt be them for all the tea in china !!

I picture you as Citizen Smith (wolfie) from the old tv programme Sven... you seem so angry about everything that I never understand what you want to convey in your posts , don't let it rile you Granny we love our royalty they are abit of stability in this ever changing and not for the good world...

Citizen smith Sven in case you don't know who I'm talking about.

Hilarious , i look alot better than him. Im in my 50 s and look good on it. Ive seen alot / traveled, although im very unlike most as i do not suffer fools and can retire soon unlike most too. Smart with money with zero debt & own my home .
A rare beast indeed.
I bet in 2006 07 on housing bubble would fail & made money while most suffered. I look ahead and try to be ahead of our distracted consumption led narcissist robot follow the crowd society.
I have something called critical thinking. Most dont use this. This is why im 100 % atheist.
While most look up to retards on love island tv chefs and morons on reality tv , i look up to brilliant exceptional people like chris hitchens , richard dawkins , shaun monson , david noakes , brian gerrish , ian r crane , pete hitchens , george carlin etc etc
This country has melted away & been stripped dry by parasites and ISNT good at all and we do failure incompetence inefficiency apology with no learning very very well . It ISNT great britain. At all. The agenda here is to keep us in personal pleasure spectrum of consumption while they run off with everything and yes were too dumb to notice .
Ha if this makes me angry im the incredible hulk ( sarcasm ) while you think that ill be sailing away from the uk into the sun on my big pension

Really Sven, do you honestly think that you are the only one that realises whats going on? by the way you missed something out, you are really good at blowing your own trumpet.

If thats true then , why do people say " youre angry " when i point out the obvious?? I see little changing.
Its only gona get worse than better in years to come.
I think i have a lot of street wise intelligence via experience good / bad and theres nowt wrong in saying it.
Most people are the same & dont impress me esp in britain.
Wirral people are v small fish in a v small pond but think they know it all but have never even lived outside it or in other countries.

Just trying to get my head around these stats thats on my latest TV Licence warning letter asking if i will be home 27th June..

"We visit 8,550 addresses a day. Day,evening and even weekends..


8550 x say average 15 minutes per visit including driving time between address
say 6hr workings . i man must visit 24 homes
8550 / 24 = say 356 employees

356 men on say £18k a year is a bill of £6.4 million spent chasing non licence holders. Looking for stats of how much they recoup through fines. Apparently they catch 700 a day

Is that wild guesswork?




There will be a lot of flats where they press every buzzer and get no response.

Total cost of collection is just over £60m, 10% on enforcement foesn't sound unreasonable, even if it does pay financially it must have a large deterrent effect ie if they didn't spend £6m on enforcement more than 10% more wouldn't bother with a licence.

And you know this how sven ? it seems a rather bold statement to make seeing as the only contact you have with us is via Wiki, no disrespect, but you have an annoying habit of talking down to people, 50 odd years old and you know it all, sorry to piss down your trumpet, but to hazard a guess I would say a few on here have seen and done more before you were born.

Wirral people , even though i unfortunately was born here , are the type who think that theyre the big cheese at times yet go outside the little penis of land it is....its a big world out there.
When i lived / worked in north london 20 years ago they didnt even know or where wirral is or was and thought i was a " scouser " ha.
I dont claim to be the oldest ( you made that verbal leap ) i try to claim the intelligence though ha.
Age doesnt define intelligence just intelligence itself
Look whos getting " angry " now ha sad

With money buying so little these days, you generally don't retire in your fifties unless you're a drug dealer , footballer , TV star etc -- OR you preserve and grow your earnings in preparation for early retirement by investing your hard earned cash in stock markets ,evil banks and other capitalist stuff . You've always seemed from posts to have a real down on the immorality of capitalism and on the hypocrisy of human beings .Serious question --- Im curious to know if you have found it possible to retire in your fifties having made and preserved money in ethical ventures only , because from what Ive seen, such ventures give slow and poor returns as they just cant compete with the ruthlessness of capitalists.

Thank god I retired in my forties

Best asking digging deeper hes making out hes retired now ha
Maybe hes the crack dealer youre referring too.
Mind you depends what lifestyle you want when retired.
Im misanthropic yes dystopian yes not a fan of britain yes or whats left of it...
Btw most footballers are retired by 35/ 40 . Oh yes i hate that game ....drinking fighting mass dross of scallys follow that one.
My father was a sales man for 30 yrs a good one he taught me all about not trusting salespeople ironically . Working hard . Learning by mistakes . Not following the crowd. Having your own mind / ideas.
Not having pain in the rear kids is helpful. Being obsessed by kids as the uk is. People having 8 kids that are taxpayer funded etc
Uk s is packed full of people now. Its annoying.
Seeing whats ahead eg the recession and not being a fool with money like most drowning in debt.
I have no debt at all. Not a tenner.
Make my words theres a slow burner down turn comin in 2020 21 not as over night as 2007 but just as bad.

I’m well retired, my only income is my pension, I volunteer for a charity two days a week mainly because I really enjoy the work.

I’m not as old as granny but I’m older than you @sven.

Mentioning the way your dad brought you up sounds like you need/want to talk to someone?

[/quote]

Wirral people , even though i unfortunately was born here , are the type who think that theyre the big cheese at times yet go outside the little penis of land it is....its a big world out there.
When i lived / worked in north london 20 years ago they didnt even know or where wirral is or was and thought i was a " scouser " ha.
I dont claim to be the oldest ( you made that verbal leap ) i try to claim the intelligence though ha.
Age doesnt define intelligence just intelligence itself
Look whos getting " angry " now ha sad[/quote]

Why do you find it surprising that they Didn't know where Wirral was or that they took you for a scouser? I'am sure you've come across this many times on your many and varied travels around the world, it's not unusual on hearing the accent they associate it with Liverpool, ah! Beatles, football.

And no sven I wasn't angry, I can't fathom why you have such a downer on Wirral and it's inhabitants, whom you class as big cheese's who apparently know very little and have never ventured outside of it's borders, some quite sweeping statements there, and you are quite right age doesn't define intelligence, but it does have the advantage of wisdom, angry no mate, I just see someone that is so insecure that they have to build themselves up and put other's down.

You're a conundrum Sven

Various points.. London people are locked in their own bubble, that's why they've never heard of or been interested of places outside the capitol. eventually, they did hear about it due to the Golf in 2006 . Despite the journalists giving nasty vindictive reports about why would anyone attend the International Golf being held in a place called Kirby. .. Yes they did... ignorant would probably describe them.

When I lived and worked in Suffolk, they'd heard of Wirral, and when I lived and worked in Kent they heard of Wirral. You've travelled far and wide, so have I, and when I lived in Greece, I went home to Liverpool on return. Even though Wirral is not my original home , my own father and my mother's Grandfather were born here , my father's family going back to 1500's. and I feel Wirral is home to me after leaving and returning so for the best part of 30yrs Wirral has been my home and it is by far a more pleasant place to be.
If you don't like an area or place it's best to move on, so why don't you ? Follow your father's directions. It sure sounds as if he loved having a son like you..

Another point @ DD how do you know how old I am and if I am older than yourself ? That is taking the hiss !!.

This is hilarious....caspers just said " no im not angry " i never said you actually where ,hence the inverted commas....!!??
Im takin the pee.
Just like when you appeared to think i was angry.
As for " talking to someone " whether you mean a doctor or being on here , i need neither. I dont care for people at all as ive mentioned many many times.
Most are loud obnoxious wannabes or chavs .
Very few people impress me . I say again.
Why is wirral really that good to you ??? Wallasey liscard ford noccy bhead etc are run down chavy sh** holes and heswall thingwall willaston caldy west kirby ( sailing click ) is plastic fur coat no knickers ponce world who if plonked into london say for example wouldnt be able to buy a 3 bed terrace in shoreditch.
Yes granny its a diff world and now still in 2019 the wirrals meaningless unheard of to londoners. Yes that HASNT changed thats the point.
Im leaving for a safer quieter , zero chav ,less kids less pollution more sun more efficient country when i retire not crappy uk i can tell u.
As for being " insecure " thats just not me. I tell it like it is and dont care really. I knock things that need knockin & say the offensive....guess why ? I think its true.

Must be thanks to your friend Keef then DD

Cant imagine where one would go in the world to find less problems that we have in the UK . Arent people pretty much the same everywhere Sven ?

Youve got to read my posts properly....its always in ref to wirral or uk

To return to the original subject of the thread, I'm a bit uncomfortable about the whole 'free licence for anyone over 75' thing. I rely on a state pension and appreciate it, but will lose out when I hit 75 as I'm just over the benefit threshold. Some family members (dead now) were financially comfortable and very well able to pay a licence fee; I used to think that money could have been much better used elsewhere. Same with the winter fuel payment. Drawing the line is the hard part. Maybe they'd have been better to keep it free for anyone below the threshold for paying tax, rather than using Pension Credit? Don't know how they would monitor that, though.

Good point Greenwood, my mum in law was in the same situation just a few pounds over the threshold, had it been her she would actually have been worse off than those on pension credit after paying the licence fee.

Same here. Not that I am eligible for a free license yet, but I'm not eligible for pension credits either because like those mentioned above, I am about £2 per week over the threshold.
Whoever says that people on pension credits are the poor in our community , with all the added benefits , it is in fact those who tried to pay into a small private pension for their old age that have once again come up against the rock and a hard place and get nothing apart from rising bills and council tax increases.
I don't want to hear anything from any political parties, to use this as a vote catcher.. they have all assumed that if you aren't wealthy you're on pension credits.. well it's a lie and that's why many of us sit and freeze in our beds all winter. If the free tele license is now to be removed for the over 75's... we might as well vote for euthanasia. Now, which political party will put that in their manifesto ?

Even Rachel Johnson (Lib Dem, Boris's sister) on her Sky programme yesterday was spouting how most pensioners from the baby boom era are all very well off and those that aren't are on pension credits, so no one will suffer. Another political party out of touch !
All I can say is that the politicians should actually engage themselves more with reality.. instead of being locked in the London bubble. If they don't know what's going on, they shouldn't be doing the job they are getting paid for.

.... and as all the political parties will now be looking for new ways to steal the electorate , they need ideas and no doubt another quiz put on the internet for those who consider themselves better able to make suggestions , rather than the people who it concerns and who possibly don't even have the internet !

Nothing new, just the same old merry go round, that's jarred us all off.

signed
One very disillusioned , grumpy, unforgiving, Royalist.


Maybe one idea would be to introduce a law where once a person is receiving their state pension, they should no longer be working.
I find it bad that jobs the young people need are being hogged by those who reach pensionable age but continue to work and some are working until they're 75-80 .
If they want to work, then no state pension until retired. That should accumulate some money in the coffers for the Government .

Heres an idea just give it free after 75 , with a turnover of 3 billion and profit of 130 mil and being public owned . Stop moaning as a obsessed by money uk corp that soon people will just turn off from & stop paying to make a point.
The mantra of taking things away from people who have paid into all their lives just to me is the stereotypical uk MO . Yawn i hate it.
" mmmm what can take back ? or make people pay more for when they get less "

Oh sven and there I was thinking you didn't care about us.

The over 75 licence was only brought in nineteen years ago so nobody will have being paying in for it all their lives.

It was a straight bribe for votes along with many other measures.

I disagreed with its implementation, it should only have been households where everybody was over 75 or perhaps 65 would have made sense.

You've lost me (admittedly it doesn't take much these days ) I don't understand your reply ? You said

"Im leaving for a safer quieter , zero chav ,less kids less pollution more sun more efficient country when i retire not crappy uk "

So Im asking what country or countries have you noted outside the uk , that fit your above criteria?

Looking on the bright side at least we get something from Labour with their bribes something that can't be said for the Tories.

Ive got time for old pensioners at times not young wasters who have contributed nowt .
Theres to many of gormless useless lazy youth

How about switzerland... not good for kids, no tax , no crime , 26 cantons that ask you what u want instead of imposing it (via referendums) , clean air , clean streets , quieter reserved people. Ok weather. Lovely scenery Efficient health care and transport....very expensive but do able

Aiming high sven, Switzerland indeed, you would probably require £70/80k a year to live on plus money at the back of you, an extremely hard country to gain access to live even as an EU citizen, so better get your skates on (or skis) before we leave.

If Switzerland is utopia, I wonder why the suicide rate is so much higher than the UK?

Its the biggest killer of men under 40 in the uk but many people just dont man up & get on with life. Mental health and all that is the new progressive liberal mantra these days. Never talked about during the wars years ago cause men had balls and didnt run away from things & winge like babies. Funny enough swiss have compulsary national service . Uk has always needed that. But it was stopped. What a pity.
Men in the uk dont get off their ass and work for things theyre busy doin their hair & playing computer games while eating macs. Turning up for interviews in trackys so they get their dole cheque.
Ive seen it all.
What you do is make yourself an LLC and use residency lump sum taxation law. Its used here for foreigners.
London is a great place from someone from say russia to not pay tax....this is the irony.
Example ...a US business man earns millions in usa but pays pays 50 / 60 % tax on it.
He applies for a malta passport and pays lawyers so all he will pay is the yearly cost of his outgoins & rent and nothing else. You cant be taxed in 2 countries. So he saves alot. Dual nationality law.
Italy portugal malta swiss etc all have lump sum yearly residency payment law. You only pay once . The OECD and common reporting standard has cut down on black money / money laundering over the years but you can get round that. This is why F1 drivers live in swiss.

UK suicide rates remained pretty constant through WW2, there was a reduction in WW1 but many suicides weren't recorded as such in the battlefields, the first (gradual) peak was 1905 then it peaked again during the great depression in the 1934, again in the 1960's then again in recent years.

Overall it has decreased this century compared to the last, both 1905 and 1934 had 30.3 suicides per 100,000 people, I believe we are around half that figure now.

Try to get the wimps to sign up today. Doin national service would be against their " human rights " . I doubt it. As with most things years ago we werent aware or should i say force fed images of war . Were now TOO aware. A false sense of national pride makes people go to say eg iraq in 2003 , when really it was just an illegal invasion to overthrow a west supplied " dictator " for oil profits & bush blair war criminals vanity.
We can just evaporate " enemies " by drone now.
Its nothing to be proud of , suicides , then or now. Thats why as a country we drink / take drugs so much..to fuzz out our meaningless lives.
Alot of army lads are from care & the army IS their family. Ive worked with them.
I doubt , going back , that the reason swiss kill themselves is the same .. theyre probably bored or fed up.

You have a distorted view of how things relate sven, on one hand you say we went to war over national pride, then you say it was about oil and money, if you are in the forces you go where you are sent,the forces take away a lot of peoples independence and they become reliant on the way of life with a lot of day to day responsibility of living taken up by the MOD,that is why when they leave they have difficulty in adjusting to civilian life.

Men didn't sign up for National service , they were sent enlistment papers along with a railway warrant to report, so no choice unless you had a reserved occupation eg; NCB or MN.

My own view on suicides, is that a lot are caused by being bombarded with media propaganda about how we should look what we should have, who we should be, and you are right in some aspects the dross shown on television people seeking instant fame and being egged on by those that believe they are fit to judge another human being, best to just enjoy what life we have, the sun shining( sometimes)the birds singing and fresh air and dealing with things one step at a time, you can do that in Great Britain sven, stop looking at the negatives.

This has gone very off topic from the original subject.

Yes it has Gibbo , but no harm done, it happens.

Back to the BBC,, and the political debate last night !

Did anyone watch it ? My opinions were that Mailtis was typically usual in her interrupting (mostly Boris) from finishing what they had to say. A programme that was as weak as dishwater and the candidates who were painfully out of ideas and using the same old rhetoric.

Then we see this, this morning. No doubt Boris and others would have know who these people were, but BBC just seem to plead ignorance !

https://order-order.com/

Have to agree constant interruptions spoiled the debate, then again they did not guarantee anything. Does it really matter the only people, who will decide is the small number of conservatives members

Its because you look at my posts , not fully , then give the two pennyworth without fully understand my meaning / intent.
What i actually said was alot of the young DO go to war esp in iraq afghan etc thro a distorted view of " national pride / loving the uk " ( id never ) when 15 years later we all know the TRUTH now ...it was a war crime.
Slaughter of the innocent for oil domination.
This " amazing " country treats its vets like dirt ( we all know that ) end up homeless druggys or kiilin themselves PTSD. My answer is why do that for scummy queen & country who dont give a toss about the individual. Never understood that. We all deep down know it. !!!
Its like goin to a bank or parasite loan company thinking they " care " no way theyll just feed on you.
Im not negative i know how things go. How it is.

I never said you can get out of NS i said ( a good thing ) we need it now aside from wartime ( as the swiss do ) as our youth are lazy gormless useless head down in phones loud obnoxious stoned snowflake plonkers who cant make a bed.
Parents fault spoiling the idiots. Or morbidly obese tv mongos.
Futures buggered for youths. Funny.
Were creators of our own problems britain. Our own downfall.
I think ill write a book called " weapons of mass consumption " or " head down " mind u pete hitchens wrote " the abolition of britain " years ago & was spot on.

Funny thing is that ironically lots of oaps will actually cost scummy torys / BBC MORE now than save cause its highlighted to oaps into getting & looking into more benefits theyre allowed to get....that cost will end up greater than the supposed " saving " by taking the licence away.
Advisors telling them to look into everything to claim back. BBC " saving " laugh = 750mil now becomes additional benefits owed once looked into = 1.5 billion..You couldnt make it up ....how the corrupt stupid bbc and gov ' are

[/quote]

A false sense of national pride makes people go to say eg iraq in 2003 , when really it was just an illegal invasion to overthrow a west supplied " dictator " for oil profits & bush blair war criminals vanity.

I fully understand what you have written, the King commands and we obey, over the hills and faraway, so the song goes, only it was the government, nothing to do with national pride, governments make wars, the young pay the bill.

What the hell am I reading? 😦