wirral forums

Russia

Posted By: cools

Russia - 14th Mar 2018 6:49pm

After getting myself all worked up over the Trump and Kim thing now I've got to worry about this! We could do without having Russia as an enemy! I mean can they really really prove it was the Russian government who did this or some other source who have made it look that way? I don't know enough about it all really , just find it worrying again...
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 14th Mar 2018 9:47pm

If we managed to identify the nerve agent as Novichok then we must be able to produce it and the same goes for many other countries.

It pays a lot of other countries for this to happen, it is of no benefit to the UK nor Russia.

To identify the chemical as Russian is a joke but of course the USA have goaded us on. Furthermore the Russians are right, we haven't followed the Chemical Weapons Convention.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 14th Mar 2018 10:56pm

Right DD "qui bono" (who benefits) in stirring up discord between UK and Russia?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 14th Mar 2018 11:38pm

Most of the EU countries, the last thing they want when we leave is any sort of pact or co-operation between us and Russia.

USA because their military want the cold war to start again to get more power and funding.

Any of the middle east countries that we have done our best to totally mistreat, they are desperate for attention to wander elsewhere.

Anybody that wanted to test a nerve agent without it being traced to source.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 9:21am

Come on folks, you cant see the wood for the tree's, poor old Russia is being blamed maligned, it wasn't us guv, so why don't they cooperate? any right minded person / government would go out of their way to prove they were innocent but no, deny deny deny, basically we have had the two fingers, they have done it before and got away with it and expected the same to happen again.

As to the middle east dd, I am sure if the had access to Novichok they would have used it in a more effective manner.

The EU involved really, we trained in Germany as part of NATO for years, who do you think the threat was from?

The most likely scenario is Putin is up for election and wanted to send a message to those thinking of opposing him, no place to hide.
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 9:58am

Posted By: Near_Oval

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 9:59am

Another view of election time in Russia is that he is able to show an appearance of strength in power - average Russian citizen has no interest in overseas issues neither are thery impacted by what the UK could bring into play as sanctions.
But they can be impressed by sabre rattling on UK part as being given the figurative two fingered salute.

I believe the nerve agents have specific chemical signatures that can be traced to orignal source/development, how have the powers that be not publicised this?
One source a=stated it can take weeks to unpick the composition is it possible UK has jumped the gun?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 11:41am

I don't think the average voting Russian wants reminding of the KGB, it could be a dodgy strategy. Other than that its true they want a "strong" President that wouldn't keel over at the first challenge.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 1:20pm

casper;;; russia may know its innocent and just wants to make the UK government look complete idiots..you can learn a lot about your opponent and their tactics when you hold 4 aces and they claim to have one. Dont feel too safe after watching the UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson he looks like an undergraduate fresh out of Eaton.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 1:53pm

Don't forget that we are dealing with a culture its history steeped in mistrust, cruelty and mass murder, worse than that of the Nazis if that is possible, that fear still lurks in the background for those that oppose the hardliners, this is a country that has no qualms in murdering its own people and they care very little about what others think, their troops are highly trained in nbc warfare, Civilian aircraft shot down (it wasn't us guv) others murdered on uk streets deny, deny , deny, the question is how long do we turn a blind eye?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 3:08pm

Also don't forget we are dealing with a Tory Government who are used to lying and getting away with it to the gullible Tory voters.

Watching the various comments by May, Boris, Gavin Williamson etc shows how accustomed they are to saying anything they like despite no evidence it is true.
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 5:26pm

DD is correct. I see no motive for Russia or Putin to assassinate a spy who was imprisoned and later exchanged in the cold war, particularly in such a manner calculated to cause hackles to be raised in the West. Blaming Russia is a bit like finding someone bludgeoned to death by a giant frozen Cornish pasty and concluding that the Cornwall County council are responsible! Laughable.

I suspect Ukraine may be responsible. It would have had access to the poison used during the Soviet period, and having lost a lot of what it maintains is its territory to Russia has every motive to discredit its enemy. Another possibility is the UK. It is remarkable how the assassination has swept from the media all reference to the EU's complete rejection of all the proposals made by Mrs. May in her last brilliant party-uniting speech. Also, it will do no harm to the armed forces and the security forces when the next doling out of cash takes place of course.

Casper. It is very easy to paint ANY country as black as you like. Look at the UK with wealth built on slavery, its activities the Scottish clearances and the brutality of the Black and tans in Ireland for instance. More recently we have the 'shoot to kill ' policy in Northern Ireland and Bloody Sunday. In the mainland, we had the police in the West Midlands writing statements to imprison innocent people, and even today we have the most appalling prison conditions, filthy, overcrowded and rat infested. Our streets are littered with people sleeping in shop doorways and food banks because people cannot feed themselves on their wages. I mention this not to 'prove' the UK is worse than any other country, but rather to show how easy it is to paint a false picture of a country.

Finally, I wonder what is meant by 'military grade' nerve agents. It implies there may be 'industrial' grades that will give you a disabling bellyache but not kill you, and perhaps 'commercial' grades that will just make you twitch a bit! But probably the real reason is to make it sound more scary, so nobody will question the government blaming Russia.

Sadly, we have a government to whom the truth is meaningless.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 5:57pm

Casper is half right but like myself many years back i had the rose tinted specs of Great Britain being a wonderful benign country helping to rid the world of Hitler etc etc. Thats part true but as you say EX a closer look at our own history is embarrassing if you wave the pontifical arent we good drum.
The classic false flag was the Israelis who blew up the King David Hotel disguised as arabs..
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 6:34pm

Well, I was born in 1942, and as a young boy firmly believed we had won WW2. As I grew older I realised that it was Hitlers decision to attack Russia, that had 'won' the war for us. It was a disastrous campaign for them as well as Russia, and the Russians lost an estimated 20 million people in it, The German army was defeated by a combination of Russian resistance and their terrible winters, rather than by the UK. Compared to what that did to the German war effort the UK's contribution was far smaller. Had Hitler invaded the UK rather than heading east, there is little doubt we would have lost.

It appears from what I have since read that Hitler was something of an anglophile, and felt that England would eventually come over to his side. There is some justification for this too. A large section of the aristocracy was sympathetic to fascism, and at the time they were a lot more powerful than they are now. The Daily Mail, for instance, actually supported Hitler at one point!

The devil is, as ever, in the detail, and when you start looking into what one thinks are indisputable facts, the smell of sulphur is often very noticeable.
Posted By: Bobario

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 6:49pm

I've never been one for conspiracy theories but I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I think the Russians have messed with us once too often and our government have finally decided to draw a line in the sand and warn them off. Lots of Russian defectors killed on the streets and regular air and sea intrusions on our territory.

Unfortunately there may not be a way to pin this 100% on Russia. Any tom dick and harry could get their hands on the basic recipe as it is in the inventors book. Also, the factory that used to manufacture it was in Uzbekistan (iirc), and was apparently closed down by a US team (who could have taken samples and/or the formula). If its old stock any batch numbers would surely lead away from Russia.

If the PM is right and we have concrete proof that this stuff came from Russia why are we not sending samples to them and the OPCW?

Also, why the hell are we vaccinating our troops against anthrax? Have we got another batch of dodgy vaccines to test on our poor troops like they did in the 1st gulf war?
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 7:48pm

I'am in full agreement with both you and Ex about our odious government, however they are briefed by the military and no doubt other sources in the know that can't be disclosed, which then leaves the question of who is the most likely culprit, fact, the Russians developed this agent, would they give access of it to others outside of Russia? consequence of so doing, it could be used against themselves by one of the many satellite states in conflict or dispute with them.
"
If this attempted "hit" had been confined and contained to a specific property and persons then the consequences might of been less severe, but to have multiple areas contaminated plus a member of the police also contaminated seems to indicate that the operation was bungled and that our response was more than they expected, so their response is prove it, and act as the outraged party.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 8:31pm

Find the timing of this interesting 2 hrs ago. bit late to start asking "how likely". Is this a spokesman just starting to open the door for the climbdown that May and government might have to take.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/43422184/how-likely-is-it-russia-poisoned-ex-spy
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 15th Mar 2018 9:11pm

Originally Posted by casper
If this attempted "hit" had been confined and contained to a specific property and persons then the consequences might of been less severe, but to have multiple areas contaminated plus a member of the police also contaminated


The conundrum here is the doctor who happened to be passing and helped Sergei's daughter Yulia who wasn't breathing and was vomiting, this doctor was totally unaffected by the poison.

The infected policeman seems an unusual case, he was reported as attending the scene but then reported as attending Sergei's home and yet the focus remained strongly around the cafe? What are the odds of a Detective Sergeant being sent and arriving as the first policeman at the incident scene?

There are different reports as to whether Yulia was slumped on the bench against Sergei or slumped at Sergei's feet?

I've not ploughed through all the media in this case but I don't think they have categorically said where the poison initially came into contact with the victims?

The other elephants in the room are how Sergei's wife and son died without any significant questions being asked, was that a UK cover-up?

As usual it is difficult to see what is media elaboration/invention and what actually happened.
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 12:47am

Quote
...the Russians developed this agent, would they give access of it to others outside of Russia...


Well yes, most certainly they would. During the Soviet era, I'm quite sure it would have been accessible to all members of the USSR. And clearly Porton Down knew of it. So evidently it isn't a particular secret. As to Skripal, he had spent a term in prison in Russia. They could have bumped him off then, but they didn't. They swapped him for some American spies I think; itself an indication that he was not a particular danger to them ay more. Given that, why on earth should they suddenly decide to wind up the West and kill him with nerve agent, decades after?

As Poirot was wont to say to his dim stooge: "We do not 'ave a moteeve, 'Astings!"

You have to be dim indeed to swallow the government's line on this without asking a few pointed questions.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 9:36am

Originally Posted by Excoriator
Quote
...the Russians developed this agent, would they give access of it to others outside of Russia...


Well yes, most certainly they would. During the Soviet era, I'm quite sure it would have been accessible to all members of the USSR. And clearly Porton Down knew of it. So evidently it isn't a particular secret. As to Skripal, he had spent a term in prison in Russia. They could have bumped him off then, but they didn't. They swapped him for some American spies I think; itself an indication that he was not a particular danger to them ay more. Given that, why on earth should they suddenly decide to wind up the West and kill him with nerve agent, decades after?

As Poirot was wont to say to his dim stooge: "We do not 'ave a moteeve, 'Astings!"

You have to be dim indeed to swallow the government's line on this without asking a few pointed questions.



Does it not seem strange that it almost a rerun of the Litvinenko murder with the same response from the Russians, prove it? lets look for a motive, Russians do a deal get what they want then take back their part of the bargain, to understand this you have to understand the Russian mentality the motherland, loyalty to the state, behind the McDonald's and designer label culture there is still the inbred link to the Stalin days of loyalty to the state, the outraged reply by the Russians is a typical response, how many former members of the Soviet Union are now still allied to them? and last of all what would the benefit be to others to set us against the Russians, we hold no direct threat to them, we barely have the capability to look after ourselves.

I do hope you are not casting me as Astings Ex
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 11:01am

I don't accept your theories as to the Russian 'mentality'. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that people are much the same and have much the same aims needs and desires wherever they hail from.

But I go back to the fact that the ONLY 'evidence' available is that the chemical used was developed by the Russians many years ago, and is now apparently well known. That is not sufficient to prove anything. May's attempts to assemble an international lynch mob makes me even more suspicious, as does her reluctance to provide the accused with samples of it, her refusal to follow the procedures laid down by the Convention on CBW, and I know to my own cost how untrustworthy and inept she is.

Interestingly, I was drinking with a friend in a pub last night, and at an adjacent table were a group of friends who were discussing the matter. From what I overheard, they were all as deeply sceptical of the government's claims as I am. Hardly a representative sample of the UK population who seem to be easily swayed to the government line, but it was good to know that their propaganda has not been 100% successful.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 11:07am

Appreciating all the differing opinions here keep it up..Nothing like a good spy story...just sad its nearly resulted in 2 deaths. Seem to remember in the Litvenko case he survived for quite a while before finally dying are we going to see the same in these 2.

Like you DD i noticed differing or drip fed bits of information ...suppose not surprising with the way media put their stories together. I think what is more intriguing is what we are not being told and the way in which the Govt handle it. I doubt May and Boris know what MI5/MI6 know.

Whilst on school crossing duty yesterday i had an agitated lady (not picking kids up) who walked past me a couple of times and then again after i finished i saw her again jabbering away on her mobile in russian or polish.. Never seen her before there and dressed in black leather jacket, black tight leggings and trainers....reminded me of Max Wall.... !!
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 12:58pm

Plot thickening ?

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

Quote
Of A Type Developed By Liars 187
16 Mar, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig murray|
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:
Posted By: cools

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 1:54pm

Ummmm could be even those EU skunks trying to make us see how much safer we are staying with them and not brexiting, stronger together and all that against the big bad bear!!..
I am being facetious , think that is going too far or is it??
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 2:09pm

Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 5:05pm

Thanks snowhite. sheds more light on the handling of it from Govts side
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 16th Mar 2018 10:07pm

rumours in press that the agent was in the daughters suitcase (planted of course..not deliberately brought in which would ruin Govts stance.. ) heard once it was referred to as "an accident" rather than deliberate.. If that is the case will we see the Tories collapse and along with it Brexit negotiations and pave the way for new election in which Corbyn might stand a chance???
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 17th Mar 2018 12:23am

Originally Posted by cools
Ummmm could be even those EU skunks trying to make us see how much safer we are staying with them and not brexiting, stronger together and all that against the big bad bear!!..
I am being facetious , think that is going too far or is it??


Well cools its certainly worthwhile looking outside the box especially when its being so neatly wrapped with a big Russian Bear stuck to it.

A little research can find plenty of "reputable" sources showing that Novochoks were produced in other countries than Russia and that the Americans were involved in one factory in Uzbekistan. (According to a BBC article in 1999)

I suspect the speed of poison id and who dunnit , before full investigation is more about controlling the UK public and giving a semblance of control.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 17th Mar 2018 9:49am

Originally Posted by fish5133
Originally Posted by cools
Ummmm could be even those EU skunks trying to make us see how much safer we are staying with them and not brexiting, stronger together and all that against the big bad bear!!..
I am being facetious , think that is going too far or is it??


Well cools its certainly worthwhile looking outside the box especially when its being so neatly wrapped with a big Russian Bear stuck to it.

A little research can find plenty of "reputable" sources showing that Novochoks were produced in other countries than Russia and that the Americans were involved in one factory in Uzbekistan. (According to a BBC article in 1999)

I suspect the speed of poison id and who dunnit , before full investigation is more about controlling the UK public and giving a semblance of control.



I think the confusion here arises from the word Novichoc, Novichoc is a generic word that covers a list of nerve agents with a particular makeup that varies in the degree of strength, the milder forms of this agent where indeed manufactured at other locations however this particular deadly strain was allegedly only manufactured by the Russians, and was supposed to have been destroyed under supervision.

I must agree that the rabid statements given by Bobo Johnson and the other muppet that told the Russians to go away do nothing to enhance further investigation and only sour relationships further, maybe this is the plan to direct the focus away from the minefield Brexit has become, what next tweeting?

Back to the motive, if we take a step back in time to 1942/43 when the Russian organised groups to form a counter intelligence / espionage agency, whose motto was Smert Shpioanam ( death to spies ) believed to be still active in the cold war days, I have added this to highlight the mindset and culture we are dealing with, to reiterate Putin a former hard man of the KGB is a disciple of Uncle Joe, and as such doesn't like losing and won't tolerate disloyalty to the state, the long arm reaching out to dispense justice.
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 17th Mar 2018 1:27pm

UPDATE.

Posted By: Excoriator

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 10:01am

I see the Russians have now mentioned the proximity of Porton Down where they are perfectly capable of manufacturing the stuff. For all we know, someone dodgy there could have supplied it to Skripal for use elsewhere by almost any group in the world. I noticed some footage shown of Skripal buying a scratch card, which implies he was not exactly rolling in cash.

The conservative lynch-mob have howled this down, but as Porton Down is only eight miles away and deals in the stuff it is at least plausible. Of course, it might be just coincidence...
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 10:24am

Originally Posted by Excoriator
I see the Russians have now mentioned the proximity of Porton Down where they are perfectly capable of manufacturing the stuff. For all we know, someone dodgy there could have supplied it to Skripal for use elsewhere by almost any group in the world. I noticed some footage shown of Skripal buying a scratch card, which implies he was not exactly rolling in cash.

The conservative lynch-mob have howled this down, but as Porton Down is only eight miles away and deals in the stuff it is at least plausible. Of course, it might be just coincidence...



The proverbial "red" herring, next they will be saying there was an escape of agent from there, it appears you would rather take the Russian explanation Ex, no doubt the waters will be muddied further in the next few days, so Skripal was short of money bought some agent from Porton Down with money he didn't have and infected himself and his daughter with it.
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 5:31pm

Hi folks. Just can't get my head around all this lot. Too many points to ponder. I have not read all the posts made so not referring to any of them, just my thoughts going down on print.

Bad stuff happens, always has done, but for use of a nerve agent in a public place seems totally irrational (IMO) being instructed by Putin. He's no fool and would know the implications and the consequences of such an act .
Why the perpetrator wait to do the dreaded dead until his daughter had arrived on UK soil ?. Why was the attempted assassination not done previously either by the same method or with a different method as in the suspected murder of the Russian last week, and many more besides. ? This highly toxic nerve agent never used before and knowledge it was against all international laws.
Why has it been reported that only Russia had this nerve agent , when yesterday in an interview on BBC, one guy said 'as we all know USA developed this agent in 1996' ?

Why today is BBC and others reporting the gas coming from Russia, how there could be a cyber attack, black-out threat. ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43421431

I am finding all of this as a way of initiating conflict and I tell you why .
Syria : Assad's only friend is Russia. Russia has it's gas pipelines going through Syria and Iran to Turkey and onto Europe .
Israel have found gas in the medi and want to pipe it through Syria, Lebanon and onto Turkey, which means that Russian supplies will be affected.
USA wanted regime change in all the middle eastern countries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz5fZziMWEE


We have US supporting the anti government terrorists in Syria we have Turkey killing the same people off in Afrin. Afrin is the area that the pipeline will go through , so far as I can see.
We have UK paying over £20million to the White Helmets who are supporting or connected to Al Nusra ( allied with Al Qaeda and enemies of (ISIS )
We have Assad being accused of chemical weapon attacks on his own people, in the region of East Ghouta , however, international bodies cleared all the chemical weapons from Syria . However, ISIS, Al Nusra, FSA, and others who inhabit East Ghouta have chemical weapons, they also have stored caches of military weapons that are French, US, Israeli and others.

Now that Afrin is just about cleared with goodness knows how many dead (which we do not hear about) only what is suspected of Assad's crimes, but no one mentions that the hospitals, schools, and many other institutions have been taken over and run by the terrorists . The people are in fear of the terrorists.
Now listen to this guy, Tom Duggan. He has lived in Damascus for 5 yrs (about with his family) A British journalist. I tend to hear what he's saying rather than the media reports we get in this country, and possibly because my daughter met a number of Syrians when she was in UAE, all of whom said they were happy with Assad, no one disliked him, they had a good life and all religions got on together. The country was a beautiful country.
I believe that now Turkey have cleared Afrin area of the Kurdish militia, Erdogan stated that it would be their territory from now on and now the coast is clear for more invasion by US and 'allies',(that's us) to finish the job off. UK need an excuse and this nerve agent is a damned good one to get the peoples support for war. I think of our young men , yet again possibly being dragged into something that does not concern us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnhWzoPUFo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSPgUCY1X_8

Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 5:38pm



2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGSDude-bPs
Posted By: cools

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 6:40pm

Great you're back Granny. What a worrying and murky state of affairs this is. I don't know all the ins and outs just that it's like something out of a spy novel and I don't like it at all...
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 18th Mar 2018 10:09pm

Originally Posted by granny
Nice to see you back Granny
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 22nd Mar 2018 5:59pm

Its all back firing on THERESA MAY.

Blame the RUSSIANS again, Nothing burger as usual
Posted By: cools

Re: Russia - 22nd Mar 2018 6:13pm

Think Boris Johnson is way out of line on this. His comments are very provocative and sabre rattling. Nothing's been proved beyond doubt and don't like the way this situation is being handled.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 22nd Mar 2018 7:09pm

Originally Posted by cools
Think Boris Johnson is way out of line on this. His comments are very provocative and sabre rattling. Nothing's been proved beyond doubt and don't like the way this situation is being handled.


The man is a complete buffoon and shouldn't be allowed to mix with the grown ups, its not like the buller club were you insult everybody cause damage and then get your check book out, this is the real world with severe consequences for the wrong words being spoken, he's already got someones sentence lengthened, perhaps with a few more well chosen words of his thoughtless wisdom he can cause Armageddon, surprise, surprise, who pays again?
Posted By: RUDEBOX

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 1:04am

Nutshell.

Attached picture Russia Propoganda.jpg
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 1:14am

Hi girls , Cools and Snowhite(thanks for comments good to see you are still around ) , and Casper.. I'm just popping in (again)

Follow up on my last posts.

Can't understand why May is making such a massive issue in EU over this. It's like her path to glory. Rallying the troops ? Is it synonymous with becoming a leader of a Government that they have to create an explosive situation ? The badge of honour maybe ?

Crown Prince Do Dah from Saudi Arabia visited. Do we know why ? More arms for the oncoming slaughter ?

Trump has fired Gen McMasters and replaced him with John Bolton, who served under Bush's administration .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43509695

President Donald Trump is replacing US National Security Adviser HR McMaster with Bush-era defence hawk John Bolton.

In a tweet, Mr Trump said he was thankful for Gen McMaster's service and he had done an "outstanding job". Mr Bolton will take the job on 4 April.

Mr Bolton, who has backed attacking North Korea and Iran, told Fox News his job would be to ensure the president has "the full range of options".

YESTERDAY:

Ten yrs since and Israel only just admit to it ? Sounds very similar to Colin Powell's speech at the UN , giving all the reports of chemical weapons, nuclear missiles and everything else that was written into his script to provide false evidence in favour of invasion and weapons inspector David Kelly dared to argue . Remember him ?

This is another lie of Israel in my opinion ... lets not forget, what Israel wants , Israel gets by fair means (not very often) or foul.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...tage-of-2007-air-strike-on-syria-reactor

Israel has for the first time confirmed that it destroyed a suspected nuclear reactor being built in Syria in 2007.
+++++++++

Some might see this as conspiracy, but the West and Israel wants Assad out of Syria, and the only way it seems (as Assad is making ground now and retaking his towns and cities) is to get involved . How are they going about it ? By making a case against Russia,(Assad's only ally).
Boris (although he didn't say the initial comparison which is causing fury in the East, someone else did ) agrees with it, and is acting in a very confrontational manner. It's either complete stupidity or deliberate .. with intent ! Can't decide which , but he's not giving confidence as Foreign Secretary in such difficult circumstances.

Great fun while he was playing tennis, but the last service sent the ball over the wall and now he can't get it back.



Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 9:03am

Hello granny, nice to see you back, I don't see the Skripal episode as a conspiracy, I think the Russians were involved, as I said before the assassination was bungled and caused some collateral damage and contamination which wasn't part of the plan, it is now being manipulated by Mrs May the same way Thatcher manipulated the Falklands conflict (god save the Queen) and used it for political gain nothing suites the Tories more than waving the Union Flag, perhaps Boris should have studied modern history before he made his comments and looked up those L.ords and members of the Tory party that were ready to jump into bed with Hitler in 1939
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 10:42am

As you notice on the fake news[BBC1] Theresa May, Merkel and the French prime minister all sitting together cosy on the seats supporting this Russian nothing burger poisoning.

I really hope this back fires on them big time

I wonder if the victims will ever be able to tell what really happened !
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 10:43am

Originally Posted by granny
Hi girls , Cools and Snowhite(thanks for comments good to see you are still around ) , and Casper.. I'm just popping in (again)

Follow up on my last posts.

Can't understand why May is making such a massive issue in EU over this. It's like her path to glory. Rallying the troops ? Is it synonymous with becoming a leader of a Government that they have to create an explosive situation ? The badge of honour maybe ?

Crown Prince Do Dah from Saudi Arabia visited. Do we know why ? More arms for the oncoming slaughter ?

Trump has fired Gen McMasters and replaced him with John Bolton, who served under Bush's administration .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43509695

President Donald Trump is replacing US National Security Adviser HR McMaster with Bush-era defence hawk John Bolton.

In a tweet, Mr Trump said he was thankful for Gen McMaster's service and he had done an "outstanding job". Mr Bolton will take the job on 4 April.

Mr Bolton, who has backed attacking North Korea and Iran, told Fox News his job would be to ensure the president has "the full range of options".

YESTERDAY:

Ten yrs since and Israel only just admit to it ? Sounds very similar to Colin Powell's speech at the UN , giving all the reports of chemical weapons, nuclear missiles and everything else that was written into his script to provide false evidence in favour of invasion and weapons inspector David Kelly dared to argue . Remember him ?

This is another lie of Israel in my opinion ... lets not forget, what Israel wants , Israel gets by fair means (not very often) or foul.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-...tage-of-2007-air-strike-on-syria-reactor

Israel has for the first time confirmed that it destroyed a suspected nuclear reactor being built in Syria in 2007.
+++++++++

Some might see this as conspiracy, but the West and Israel wants Assad out of Syria, and the only way it seems (as Assad is making ground now and retaking his towns and cities) is to get involved . How are they going about it ? By making a case against Russia,(Assad's only ally).
Boris (although he didn't say the initial comparison which is causing fury in the East, someone else did ) agrees with it, and is acting in a very confrontational manner. It's either complete stupidity or deliberate .. with intent ! Can't decide which , but he's not giving confidence as Foreign Secretary in such difficult circumstances.

Great fun while he was playing tennis, but the last service sent the ball over the wall and now he can't get it back.



Your welcome Granny x
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 23rd Mar 2018 7:05pm

Lets see we have a Russian "formerly" in the spying business living close to Porton Down. His daughter goes on "holiday" to Russia and comes back with a nerve agent in her suitcase (according to some MSM )
1) she could have been smuggling it into the country for a) an assassination hit or b) for Porton Down

The nerve agent escapes in the home of spy and after many hours the couple take ill around about the same time. Police officer visits spy home and takes ill immediately?

still so many twists and little facts evidence ..
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 2:21am

I'm even more suspicious now. When have we ever seen this level of "support" from other EU countries without at least 3 months of manipulation, bribery, blackmail etc?
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 9:44am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
I'm even more suspicious now. When have we ever seen this level of "support" from other EU countries without at least 3 months of manipulation, bribery, blackmail etc?


Perhaps they are getting worried DD, if the Russians can covertly deliver a nerve agent to our Island nation then think how easy it would be to do the same to the European States.

From what I can gather Novichoc is a binary agent and can be mixed with another compound that is obtainable ( it also makes it easy to transport), it is a persistent agent which basically means that the area remains infected.

My theory has now changed somewhat, that the area was in fact picked because of its proximity to Porton Down, and the attack was meant to cause maximum media exposure, the Russians throwing in Porton Down as a joke, which was in fact meant to cause concern and confusion among the local populace and create doubt about their own involvement, it appears to have had some success as Porton Down has been mentioned on these pages as the source of contamination and I bet many more are wondering.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 1:27pm

The ultimate conspiracy theory.....

The nerve agent had been stolen from Porton Down and the Skripals were the intermediaries moving it on, perhaps to Russia.
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 1:59pm

Also been said that Pablo lives in Salisbury.


https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Pablo_Miller

and Mr Steele living in Yemen atm .

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Christopher_Steele
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 4:53pm

Nice one! Granny
An open mind will take you to places a closed mind wont, better to put out the known facts than unfounded accusations. Hope you are well H.
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 5:00pm

Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 6:28pm

One thing that has come to light,out of all this is that very few people have trust or indeed any faith in this government,and see them as underhanded and untrustworthy, well best to call a spade a shovel , liars !
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 24th Mar 2018 10:43pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The ultimate conspiracy theory.....

The nerve agent had been stolen from Porton Down and the Skripals were the intermediaries moving it on, perhaps to Russia.


Or the reverse.. Skripals daughter brought it back from Russia in her suitcase to give to Porton Down.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 25th Mar 2018 8:05am

Originally Posted by fish5133
Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
The ultimate conspiracy theory.....

The nerve agent had been stolen from Porton Down and the Skripals were the intermediaries moving it on, perhaps to Russia.


Or the reverse.. Skripals daughter brought it back from Russia in her suitcase to give to Porton Down.


In both cases, with Novichoc being a binary agent surely it would be stored and transported in its inert form, unmixed,
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 25th Mar 2018 4:02pm

Originally Posted by casper
In both cases, with Novichoc being a binary agent surely it would be stored and transported in its inert form, unmixed,


That is the curious thing, if they were targetting Sergei by using his daughter, how did they set up a scenario where he was bound to be present when the pre-mixed container was opened or the separate agents were mixed? How did they ensure customs didn't get hit instead etc etc.

Its hard to believe that the UK wasn't involved as the PM declared the sanctions before they appear to even know what has physically happened and where contamination may exist.

What possible convincing information could the PM have told all the other countries that she couldn't also have released to the UK public?
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 25th Mar 2018 5:35pm

It's all a bit unclear DD, it is suggested that they were infected through the ventilation system of the car, but who knows? hence all the conspiracey theories, another curious thing is if Novichok is so deadly how did father and daughter manage to contaminate so many different places, surely in an enclosed space if it was in the car then they must have had a deadly dosage,and immediate symptoms???
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 25th Mar 2018 6:46pm

How did they manage to contaminate so many places without contaminating the doctor who resuscitated the daughter?

The BMW was stuck in snow the day before the incident, that would really interfere with the window of opportunity to tamper with it.

Nerve agents can be slow acting, there are no set rules. Its doesn't have to be destructive in itself, it can be a very indirect way of causing parts of the body to shut down.
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 25th Mar 2018 7:15pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper


Nerve agents can be slow acting, there are no set rules. Its doesn't have to be destructive in itself, it can be a very indirect way of causing parts of the body to shut down.


Odd they were both affected at the same time on a park bench !

Something just doesn't add up . Copper contaminated ( also reported that was when he went to the house.) and it was a female doctor who first attended them so I heard on the news, initially.
Someone could be making it up as they go along, I suppose.
Even more strange that there are no living relatives to vouch for the facts , such as them still being in hospital or still critical etc. unlike the last, Litvinenko.
I hate to get too involved in fantasy... BUT maybe it wasn't even his daughter whom met him. CCTV showed the suspected couple walking and she had blonde hair, the female doctor said she had brown hair.

Hi Dusty, yes, I'm fine and thanks . Hope you are ok too. Sorry, but I have just turned your previously nice comments , upside down. laugh
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 8:28am

It certainly not fantasy granny, who knows what exactly went on, my guess is it reeks of Russian involvement, no doubt misinformation has been leaked to the media to muddy the waters and maybe the reports have been watered down, we now must wait to see what the final outcome will be from the tests being carried out, if they do prove that this was the work of Russia then. they will have fall guys in place to take the blame.

Apparently Novichock was designed overcome all current NATO measures against chemical attack, including personal NBC equipment and measures against contamination.

Very observant of you to notice the hair colour granny, some pictures do show her with blonde hair
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 3:07pm

Originally Posted by casper
It certainly not fantasy granny, who knows what exactly went on, my guess is it reeks of Russian involvement, no doubt misinformation has been leaked to the media to muddy the waters and maybe the reports have been watered down, we now must wait to see what the final outcome will be from the tests being carried out, if they do prove that this was the work of Russia then. they will have fall guys in place to take the blame.

Apparently Novichock was designed overcome all current NATO measures against chemical attack, including personal NBC equipment and measures against contamination.

Very observant of you to notice the hair colour granny, some pictures do show her with blonde hair


Read in the news today Skripal has been seeing a Russian girlfriend, mmm the plot thickens.
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 4:23pm

From the start this Saga has had a poor script and even poorer actors. We used to call it propaganda now it is called news. Get ready for the egg fight I have a feeling there is going to be plenty about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent Soros and his muppets must be laughing their socks off.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 7:44pm

The next part of the plot will be the death of one or both of them. Any news if they have been questioned? or which hospital they are in?
If our Govt can name the agent in 48 hours how come the chemical weapon scientists havent come up with anything yet.
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 7:58pm

This is quite entertaining far to much information for my mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 26th Mar 2018 11:42pm


Who mentioned SOROS ? If you want what is going on this is extremely interesting. Long , but well worth it. Alternatively , go to
30 mins, for the start of the real surprises, or to 40 mins if you're in a hurry to catch up with George Soros.

Vanessa Beeley giving a talk on how it all works, links in, NGO's that aren't NGO's at all and much more. She is given an introduction to her background first of all. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYKrKQFO32c
Posted By: dustymclean

Re: Russia - 27th Mar 2018 10:20am

Who mentioned Soros ? I did because, Vil Mirzayanov the Soviet chemist worked under the Soviets for thirty years on novichok. He was arrested in 1994 and charged with divulging state secrets. Intervention by the US government The Soros Foundation and activists including his wife an American secured his asylum in the United States.
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 27th Mar 2018 6:29pm

Originally Posted by granny

Who mentioned SOROS ? If you want what is going on this is extremely interesting. Long , but well worth it. Alternatively , go to
30 mins, for the start of the real surprises, or to 40 mins if you're in a hurry to catch up with George Soros.

Vanessa Beeley giving a talk on how it all works, links in, NGO's that aren't NGO's at all and much more. She is given an introduction to her background first of all. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYKrKQFO32c


Vanessa Beeley, describes herself as an independent journalist, however she has been described as an anti imperialist a friend of Assad and a communist puppet, adept at twisting the truth, must admit she comes across as sincere,but Having said that the more confusion there is, the easier it is to manipulate people.
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 27th Mar 2018 10:20pm


Vanessa Beeley could very well be all of those things you mention, but the facts she makes about how all the NGO's are connected and backed by foreign Governments, and the CIA, with Soros pivotal , gives a clear indication of how the NGO's are truly not what they are given to be. Soros has poured £ billions into his Open Society Foundation (backed by the CIA) . A little over 12 month s ago it was reported that Trump ordered Pompeo to sever CIA ties with Soros.
Admittedly, there's a lot of tripe on the internet, which comes from both sides. Who to believe is always questionable. It is interesting to try to understand what all these 'Foundations' are for. Something that has crept in with money being poured into them from individuals, where it would seem money is being given away ,.. there has to be a method in their madness. I would suggest Beeley's take on that is correct, i.e. for NGO's to cause civil unrest and the regime changes that have for so long been planned.
Soros , the crook that Dusty describes, gets into everything and is like King of the World.
Another article that we can read, digest and maybe discard as propaganda , but is it ?
https://www.mintpressnews.com/212798-2/212798/

Getting back to the original topic, seems now Mrs May has succeeded in getting the support and backing of so many countries expelling Russian Diplomats, everything has gone quiet again on the Skripal incident. Job done ! (that's the way I see it anyway).
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 8:59am




Getting back to the original topic, seems now Mrs May has succeeded in getting the support and backing of so many countries expelling Russian Diplomats, everything has gone quiet again on the Skripal incident. Job done ! (that's the way I see it anyway).
[/quote]

We didn't have to twist their arms up their backs for support, most have been on the receiving end of Russian interference and have had enough.

Theresa May strutting the world stage with her best Winston Churchill Face on, some of the media saying we are taking our place as world leaders, it must be manna from heaven for the Tories with Brexit dropped from the headlines, every cloud has a silver lining for some, Boris may even get a Nobel peace prize for his delicate handling of the situation.
Posted By: cools

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 9:21am

If it wasn't so serious and scary you would laugh wouldn't you but it frightens me...worry beads at the ready. I would not be going anywhere near Russia World Cup or not! Thousands of tickets been sold it sounds surreal everybody so against them but they hosting football World Cup!!
Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 9:41am

Originally Posted by cools
If it wasn't so serious and scary you would laugh wouldn't you but it frightens me...worry beads at the ready. I would not be going anywhere near Russia World Cup or not! Thousands of tickets been sold it sounds surreal everybody so against them but they hosting football World Cup!!


It's not the Russian people cools most of them are like us they just want to live their lives, it would be a disaster for Russia if anything was allowed to happen at the World cup on top of everything else.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 7:52pm

Originally Posted by dustymclean
This is quite entertaining far to much information for my mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist



Key info in it quote "“It could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 8:39pm

Originally Posted by fish5133
Originally Posted by dustymclean
This is quite entertaining far to much information for my mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist



Key info in it quote "“It could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”



A media sensationalist version of "The main route of exposure is thought to be by inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure."
Posted By: granny

Re: Russia - 28th Mar 2018 11:48pm

Tonight they say that the highest traces of the nerve agent are on Skripal's front door. Just maybe he'd had enough of life, he had the agent and his plan was to commit suicide and take his daughter with him. Anything is possible .... they did after all pay a visit to the cemetery first thing !
Posted By: cools

Re: Russia - 29th Mar 2018 7:53am

This gets stranger by the minute, that is very possible Granny..If it had been put on front door by whoever they're not very professional! Poor postman , anybody calling at the door could have been infected. It just sounds very, well sloppy really!! The daughter had only just come from Russia the day before had she not? Had she brought it over to do what with who knows? Don't think we'll ever get the truth about this
Posted By: snowhite

Re: Russia - 29th Mar 2018 9:43am

Posted By: casper

Re: Russia - 29th Mar 2018 1:35pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by fish5133
Originally Posted by dustymclean
This is quite entertaining far to much information for my mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist



Key info in it quote "“It could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”



A media sensationalist version of "The main route of exposure is thought to be by inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure."


Ex forces personnel will remember being taught the methods of delivery, pre treatment, treatment for symptoms, and methods of entry into the system, inhalation absorption and ingestion.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 29th Mar 2018 9:28pm

Originally Posted by granny
Tonight they say that the highest traces of the nerve agent are on Skripal's front door.


And yet this policeman was unaffected!

Attached picture DZfCCr4W0AAVQi9.jpg
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 29th Mar 2018 10:40pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by granny
Tonight they say that the highest traces of the nerve agent are on Skripal's front door.


And yet this policeman was unaffected!

Good shout DD




I presume that photo of the copper would have been taken after Det Sgt Nick Bailey had become ill and it had been quoted by one of his bosses that it was likely he was contaminated at Skripals house..does seem rather odd you would then post another copper outside the house. Contrast that to the men in chem suits and masks pottering around in the open air..

Depending on the draught seals on a door you often see dirt on the inside of the frames because thats where any draughts carry the dirt

Anyone found out why it was a Detective Sergeant first on the scene and not a regular PC..
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 5th Apr 2018 9:28pm

Like this comment just seen on a youtube clip


nextgenprepper
3 weeks ago
"Russia kills a russian spy, Teresa May we will not tolerate russians putting british peoples lives at risk on british soil..... 3 islamic terror attacks on british soil in one month, Teresa May- lets light a candle"
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 8th Apr 2018 11:21pm

George so eloquent as usual..

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Russia - 9th Apr 2018 12:16am

Originally Posted by fish5133
George so eloquent as usual..


I love him ....

"if you believe that story, you are not a sheep, you are an idiot"

I know he's very theatrical but I love his diction and I know his message is much more likely to be true than anything coming from the front bench.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Russia - 9th Apr 2018 8:42am

Wearing a leotard almost puts him in the idiot class but at least it was unllikely to inflame international tensions.....used to like boris for his bumbling but he has gone too far now and become a dangerous liability. Starting to think now its time for a change of government on health and safety grounds........
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