It would seem that this is about to be stopped in it's tracks if possible, but it would also appear that there is likely to be trouble if that does happen.
Another system in Spain that takes their money and puts it in a different money bag for use elsewhere.
I'm not sure why they are being driven to this independence referendum, but neither am I thinking that Spain has such force as to legally stop it.
Scotland were allowed to have their referendum, we didn't object.
It seem to me that there is trouble afoot in every political corner these days, and the EU ( or more Brussels) seem to be very much on the 'clamp down' of anything they don't like.
Very concerning for the future..IMO. There again I don't think any one group of people can control approx 750million without such over riding authority and extremes .
The lid is likely to blow off Europe very soon, and I hope we are out before it happens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41457238
link press here now the police are fighting the fire crews it's nuts
Basically it all goes back historically to the twelfth century but in more recent times the Spanish Civil War and Franco's iron fist - not removed until 1975, the repercussions linger.
I don't see how having a vote can be illegal and warrant the actions against the Catalonians by the Spanish police.
Whether the referendum is legal or not is another issue and nothing to do with the people voting. It comes under the right to free speech, it is expressing an opinion. Lets see what the mighty EU has to say on a blatant breach of one of their supposed prime principles.
Imagine putting a poll on WikiWirral and the heavy brigade arriving and bashing down your door!
Anyone for the International Brigade?
I havent really been closely following the lead up to the Catalonian situation so Im not really sure of all the background, but ignoring the terrible inexcusable violence for a minute and whether the vote is legal (which hasnt yet been decided by the constitutional court), would I be right in getting the impression that Catalonia is a hugely wealthy privileged area of Spain, a real hub for finance etc and they dont want their rich regions ways and economy , averaged down to a less desirable level, by being subjected to being ruled by the democracy of a 'whole' Spain , so want to vote for independence for their area to maintain their present standard of living and culture , meaning that with the high earning and productive bits gone, the rest of Spain would end up basically poorer as the Govt would have less income (from the taxed rich) to play with ?
Is this similar in principle to the talk you hear from London of wanting to be independant from the rest of the UK because the majority of them didnt want Brexit? Not about proper democracy at all, just about limited democracy ie within an area wanting to keep something that is particularly beneficial to itself?
I havent really been closely following the lead up to the Catalonian situation so Im not really sure of all the background, but ignoring the terrible inexcusable violence for a minute and whether the vote is legal (which hasnt yet been decided by the constitutional court), would I be right in getting the impression that Catalonia is a hugely wealthy privileged area of Spain, a real hub for finance etc and they dont want their rich regions ways and economy , averaged down to a less desirable level, by being subjected to being ruled by the democracy of a 'whole' Spain , so want to vote for independence for their area to maintain their present standard of living and culture , meaning that with the high earning and productive bits gone, the rest of Spain would end up basically poorer as the Govt would have less income (from the taxed rich) to play with ?
Is this similar in principle to the talk you hear from London of wanting to be independant from the rest of the UK because the majority of them didnt want Brexit? Not about proper democracy at all, just about limited democracy ie within an area wanting to keep something that is particularly beneficial to itself?
A separation agreement can have adjustments to level the relative wealth. However I think the majority of Catalonians want independence for political and social reasons not economic, if that is true then they would accept the financial balancing.
[youtube]v=Z5kBe4WwXJ4[/youtube]Nigel nails it on the head once more.
Here Here Nigel, I'd vote for him to be PM if only we could Snowy.
Well, I don't know if it's right or wrong. Prince Filip has had his say, the only worry is that once discontent gets a hold in a region, there are usually those with influence from outside, and we see what happened in the middle east. Considering Spain has a big migrant population, we don't know if the bad guys could get installed and wage war through Europe by getting a stronghold in Catalonia.
Just my thoughts, but we saw the same mass demonstrations in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria .
Maybe I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but it is a situation that could explode if some so wished to make it that way. Either far right or far left.
Here Here Nigel, I'd vote for him to be PM if only we could Snowy.
We only can wish Cools.
....Hope you are feeling better lollipop x
Thankyou! Snowhite!!!!
Yes back in work next Monday, parents went back to Wirral on Sunday and iam healing well still a bit tender though!! All good! X
Glad to hear your feeling better , surprized your going back to work so soon tho , Take Care .
The lid is likely to blow off Europe very soon...
Well, once again, your delusional claim is totally unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.
Because you'd LIKE to see this doesn't make it LIKELY to happen. In fact, the EU is doing well economically, the Euro is strong, and the 27 will soon become the 32 or 33 as a further clutch of nations join. It is growing and growing faster than us and the US in terms of its GDP. Unlike us, the threat of brexit appears to have been to their benefit, whilst we contemplate falling growth, growing inflation, a growing trade deficit, and the imminent departure of our banking industry along with a number of manufacturers.
To the disappointment of Farage and various other ranting troublemakers, the 'domino effect' of other countries deciding to leave has not happened. The EU remains as popular as ever with its members.
They are now trying to talk the Catalan thing up as if they want to leave the EU. They don't of course. Even the 'leavers' there want to stay in the EU. It is Spain they want to leave.
I think Madrid has handled this very badly. They would have been better advised to organise a proper referendum which as far as I can make out would have resulted in a defeat for those who want independence. The truth is that - according to numerous polls - the majority of Catalan residents do NOT wish to leave Spain, something that the fuss over this dodgy referendum has obscured.
Ex your trolling is becoming very boring ! Go find yourself a hobby.
I hope to see one day soon the EU implode on itself and shatter putting all those arrogant supercilious foreign morons out of their cushy jobs!!!! Just caught the end of a debate on one of the news channels and this little smug B... Calling Britain a useless country and to pay their bills etc. Wish I'd got his name French I think he was, damn cheek!!!
N.B. Ex, a polite request .Please refrain from further comments on any of my posts. I suggest you put me on ignore rather than being antagonistic
a polite request from Granny.
In fact, the EU is doing well economically, the Euro is strong, and the 27 will soon become the 32 or 33 as a further clutch of nations join. It is growing and growing faster than us and the US in terms of its GDP. Unlike us, the threat of brexit appears to have been to their benefit, whilst we contemplate falling growth, growing inflation, a growing trade deficit, and the imminent departure of our banking industry along with a number of manufacturers.
And that is its downfall, the stronger the Euro gets, the better for the stronger countries like Germany but in the meantime the weaker countries like Greece are hit even harder. Of course, this is what Germany wants, unless the EU becomes one state then the idea of having all their currencies tied together won't work. Its a stealth move to create the United States of Germany.
Nonsense. Spain is currently growing fast and will soon be booming again. I see no real movement to remove sovereignty (whatever that is) from it or any other EU country.
Why cannot you accept that the idea of turning Europe into a sort of USA is a straw man constructed by the likes of UKIP? The whole concept of the EU is that it is a union of Nations, not a new country, and this is evidently a stable development model that works.
It has the advantage that countries CAN do things their own way if they choose, yet still act together when this is to their mutual advantage.
I will point out - once again - that despite the crazed propaganda of the brexiteers, the EU has NO law-making powers in the UK or indeed any other nation. It is the member nations governments that pass these laws having agreed to do so within the EU because they have determined it is to their advantage to do so.
I am sorry, but if anyone insists on talking nonsense, I reserve the right to point it out. I, of course, extend this right to you too, should you feel I have talked nonsense.
I will undertake not to abuse anyone, and concentrate on their views rather than the person. Hopefully you will too.
YOU talk nonsense Ex, never!!! hUH!!!
Nonsense. Spain is currently growing fast and will soon be booming again. I see no real movement to remove sovereignty (whatever that is) from it or any other EU country.
Why cannot you accept that the idea of turning Europe into a sort of USA is a straw man constructed by the likes of UKIP? The whole concept of the EU is that it is a union of Nations, not a new country, and this is evidently a stable development model that works.
It has the advantage that countries CAN do things their own way if they choose, yet still act together when this is to their mutual advantage.
I will point out - once again - that despite the crazed propaganda of the brexiteers, the EU has NO law-making powers in the UK or indeed any other nation. It is the member nations governments that pass these laws having agreed to do so within the EU because they have determined it is to their advantage to do so.
I didn't mention Spain because they are in the middle and so not so much affected by the Euro but Italy, Portugal and Greece are at one end, they can't control their currency to balance out with their GDP.
Take the recent drop in the pound, as it became cheap abroad this increased foreign trade so the GDP wasn't affected as much as the drop in the pound, its sort of self-regulating and prevents a cliff edge drop happening.
Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Cyprus and Greece haven't got that luxury, their currency isn't matching their GDP because it is affected by other EU countries that are doing better than them.
I wouldn't say Spain is doing well, just because they have avoided a road of destruction doesn't mean they are on the road to recovery.
Tell me the difference between the future United States of Germany and the current United States of America. The only difference as I see it is that the USA hasn't got a dominant state.
Well, I would welcome your pointing out where I have talked nonsense, and expressing your opinion, hopefully, accompanied by some supporting evidence.
Unfortunately, a falling pound is NOT compensated for by lowered costs. This might be the case were products 100% sourced in the UK but few are. Most of the stuff we sell is assembled here but the basic manufacturing is done elsewhere which means it has to be bought in from overseas. There will be some cost reduction but not much. Tourism will do well, but that's not a huge part of the UK's foreign earnings.
Most of the countries that suffered during the Euro crisis are now well on the road to recovery, by the way. It's not just Spain, and unlike us are not looking at a further devaluation in their currency due to brexit.
There is one big difference between the United States of America and the 'United States of Germany', by the way, and that is that the former exists and the latter is entirely fictional and exists only in your imagination.
Getting back to the question of Catalan Independance, I think its a measure of the fact that the EU has no ambition to be a USE as it has clearly respected Spain's right to run it's own country. You may recall they took little interest in Scotland's independance bid either, for the same reason.
The EU is a Union of Sovereign states, that's all. I can see no evidence whatsoever for any ambition to change that, although harmonisation of standards and laws across all member states would probably be advantageous to all and in time will tend to happen.
It is a model that seems to work. Europe is now richer and bigger than the US, and the ethos of the EU is quite different from the American rejection of social responsibility and exaggerated respect for gun-totin' individualism. Who, within Europe, would want to emulate that? I suspect very few, thank god.
So you don't think Merkel/Germany has more clout in Europe than any other leader/country?
I didn't say that. I said that the EU is a union of nations, and not a nation itself. This seems to suit everyone, and there is no good reason to change it.
Of course, richer nations have more clout than poor ones, but even there Lithuania's votes count just as strongly as Germany's. The EU is designed not to allow any one nation to take it over completely.
I would remind you, too, of Objective One. Funding will be made available to bring the poorer parts of ANY nation up to an acceptable standard. This principle is fundamental to the EU, but would be anathema to any American. Nobody wants a United States of Europe. There is not even any real enthusiasm for a European Army.
I think you have managed to frighten yourself with a straw man constructed by yourseves.
The European army that's being built on the quite you mean?
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/22/germany-is-quietly-building-a-european-army-under-its-command/A few more interesting stats ...
Within the EU the UK has the worst trade balance with other European countries.
Within the EU, the UK has the second worst trade balance with non-EU countries.
While the EU appears to be doing well, without Germanyit would have a negative trade balance.
Italy's trade balances (EU and non-EU) are both positive.
Spain's trade balances (EU and non-EU) are both negative.
I didn't say that. I said that the EU is a union of nations, and not a nation itself. This seems to suit everyone, and there is no good reason to change it.
Nonsense - as our recent referendum indicates.
I didn't say that. I said that the EU is a union of nations, and not a nation itself. This seems to suit everyone, and there is no good reason to change it.
Just an opinion.
I think you have managed to frighten yourself with a straw man constructed by yourseves.
See me.
foreignpolicy.com??
Hmmmm. Bit of a neocon rag in my opinion. I'd be careful what you believe in it.
foreignpolicy.com??
Hmmmm. Bit of a neocon rag in my opinion. I'd be careful what you believe in it.
Ok, how about the thoughts of Germany's outgoing Federal Minister of Finance Wolfgang Schäuble who is soon to become Speaker of the Bundestag....
"Mr Schäuble also welcomed plans to turn the EU into a more integrated bloc, with an EU army and a single tax system "
There is huge financial disparity within the EU, sharing a currency, sharing a tax system does the opposite of levelling things out, its a ball and chain around the lesser performing countries which will defeat them.
Contrary to previous claims that Brussels haven't interfered with the Catalan situation, they have. They have spoken to Catalonia and condemned their actions. Furthermore they are co-operating with Spain to put a financial squeeze on Catalonia which has already started. Brussels has also stated that if Catalonia was to become independent they would no longer be in the EU and have to negotiate entry from scratch - that is of course unnecessary, a transitional arrangement could be made without kicking EU citizens out of the EU.