Hi, not sure if anyone else has a a poll on the forum but I haven't seen one.

We are about 3 weeks away now and I'm keen to see what the people of Wirral are thinking about which way they will vote.

PLEASE DONT USE THIS THREAD TO DISCUSS REASONS, THERE ARE OTHER THREADS FOR THAT, THIS IS JUST TO SEE HOW WIRRAL WILL VOTE

I wish you luck with your poll Compo, but our late lamented Granny tried to run a similar one and couldn't muster any enthusiasm from our apathetic membership.

The reason I asked is I saw another poll on another forum and it was a wider uk audience, it was a car forum so had people from all walks of life but the result was nearly 90% voting out. I wondered how do the official stats have it at 50/50 when I only know 1 or 2 people who are remain campaign

I'm afraid that Celebrity Big Brother gets more attention here.

I still think its more about loads of people still not knowing which way they are going to vote. I keep changing my mind all the time . Having been listing to OUT for a while, today ,and yesterday Michael Goves lack of performance (in my eyes anyway) and the challenges from the audience that he didnt really address convincingly , have left me wavering again. I know both sides are lying and bigging up their own arguments, but I wish the OUT side would just say that yes, we might well have a ropey couple of years adjusting if the OUTERS win just whilst the dust settles , instead of implying everything will be fine from the outset- it would give them more credibility in my view. Certainly Ive been more influenced lately by the figures being brought out by the REMAINERS , if you listen to the claims the OUT lot are making , about all the different projects that are going to get money thrown at them , money saved by not giving it to the EU - the figures dont balance any which way . Loads more is being promised than is being saved from the EU.

The issue is absolutely nothing to do with UK politicians, its about whether you want to be under the control of unelected EU politicians who are totally unaccountable to the public.... or not.

We aren't voting for or against UK politicians (outers or remainers), its not an election.

It is a chance to bring some sort of democracy back to the UK instead of being dictated to.

But at the end of the day the outcome will affect politics in this country, look at the line up of the main outers, mainly right wing Tories, they can smell the money and the opportunity, sale time in the UK again, you will almost certainly see the NHS gone, a haven for spivs and dirty money investment, cheap labour, look at the history of the Conservative party every time they have been in power there has been civil unrest, the police the Army being used, perhaps Boris de Piffle has been planning ahead with his water cannon, good old bumbling Boris, but wait till the mask slips, so dd we need to take a long hard think, its not as simple as you make out by just cutting the ties with the EU, its what we will be left with here, no running to the EU courts when your workers rights are taken away, think about it.

Uk politicians are our servants unlike many of the Brussels's faceless multitude.

We have u-turned this government a number of times without hardly trying.

Surrendering ourselves to servitude cannot be better than using democracy

Don't forget that the EU is also selling the NHS down the Swanee via TTIP.

Uk politicians are our servants, sorry dd that made me smile a bit, you wouldn't think so the way they behave and lets face it they don't believe that, as to surrendering ourselves to servitude I think you are right on that one but it wont be to Brussel's, without EU legislation it will be increasingly hard to u turn anything, the laws can be changed here to favour the government and to back any contentious issues that may arise from the plebs, as to Boris saying there are countries lining up to snap our hands off with trade deals, its more like they are lining up to be first in the great GB sale.

That is where we are going wrong, we are gradually allowing our democracy and accountancy to get eroded away, the EU is a huge step to help the politicians take total control.

EU legislation doesn't help democracy/accountability, it removes it totally.

If I understand the supremacy structure correctly, the most politically powerful person in the UK is Jonathan Hill - have you heard of him?

This thread was only supposed to be for people to vote, not opinions!

Sorry cools you're right my apologies , but I think we should take every opportunity to discuss as its so important that we have all the facts both for and against, I fear for our grandchildren and their prospects, I don't want them to go to uni or further education for them to end up in McDonalds or Subway because that's the way I can see our economy going a service industry Country for the well heeled.

I know Casper it is important but I think when someone puts a poll up don't start to lose it with all the talk. People lose interest in the actual poll then, there is other threads for the discussion.I would have been interested in the vote but don't think anyone knows it there now. Consider yourself told off, lol.

Its a good job I wasn't admonished by granny, it might of ended up with a spanking

.you miss granny and her debates.Sad she has gone.

Nigel Farage will be on ITV tomorrow with David Cameron but it won't be a debate like Farage did with Clegg twice in 2014 were Farage completely savaged him.

Very true, she kept us in line

even if we all vote out,they won't let it happen the eu is a prison
for your mind

You are right Joe, apparently 72% of other EU members have to agree to let us out and then the EU commission has the final say, according to Article 50.

Not quite, under article 50 any state has the right to leave the EU without "permission".



The 72% comes from normal voting rules in the EU [Article 238] and will apply to the any agreements made concerning the exit terms.

Questions 9pm ITV Tonight

Cameron and Farage set to face public questions on EU referendum

Haven't watched this yet ,was it any good?

Try this www.theguardian.com/profile/espen-barth-eide

Yet another over-simplistic analysis designed to create fear, for a more complete picture try http://www.cityam.com/240684/the-no...-paying-into-the-eu-without-having-a-say

A bit frugal with the truth though dd, no mention of free movement, although they did mention the schengen agreement, however schengen does apply to Switzerland, so the truth is not out there, they are all still at it with half truths

It was a reply to one statement which very clearly showed the statement was false.

The whole campaign has been to see who can get away with the most extreme statements - it is politicians playing political games instead of A. representing the people B. doing what is the best for the people of this country.

The politicians have to be ignored, we need to vote on the basics - to be taken over by Germany or to remain in the UK.

Germany exports more to the USA than they export to any EU country and imports more from China than they import from any EU country - the few other EU countries I have checked have other EU countries as either their main export or import market.

The tariffs and quotas imposed by the EU favour Germany's trade more than ours.

We will eventually become another Greece if we stay in, totally powerless, trade being taken away from them when they are supposed to be growing trade to recover. Greece is Germany's 47th largest import market and 39th largest export market - not a lot of support there!

I am still not convinced about leaving, if the brexit campaign had a viable trade plan in place it may make a difference, but we have nothing, which I think puts us at a disadvantage in seeking new trading links, those whom we are seeking to do business will have the advantage on a take it or leave it basis, I have a feeling of deja vu, remembering when the Tories became unpopular and everyone I spoke to denied having voted for them, if we leave and its a disaster I think this will happen, mass denials.

The EU holds trade back, its a protectionist organisation but as usual the rules seem to impact us more than Germany and France.

Our fishing trade has been decimated by the EU, our own fish are being sold back to us.

Our sugar industry has been decimated.

Our steel industry has been decimated.

Our power industries have been decimated.

80% of our trade is in the service industry, we can not carry on making money out of nothing we need our industry.

Our biggest net export of food and drink is whisky, in fact I think that is the only one that is a net export, we import more of everything else than we export.

We are gradually being squeezed into an untenable position so we can be taken over/wiped out overnight.

We ignored the writing on the wall twice before, lets not make it a third time, we might not be so lucky this time.

All the European countries that are in the EEA/EFTA but NOT in the EU are doing very well.

You cant blame the demise of industry on the EU alone lets not forget the great British sell off AKA privatisation, deregulation and the Westland scandal under the Tories, how they fought the EU on the TUPE regulations take a long hard look at the main Tory players in the brexit campaign a more mealy mouthed bunch you are ever likely to meet, you can smell the self interest from Westminster, the only jackboot we need fear is already ensconced in parliament, they have set about destroying the industry infastructure here ready to rebuild in the Tory thousand year reich.

EU trade has the same problem as the Euro, you can't make one shoe fit all feet.

When you have problems with trade the main control the government has is to set tarifs and quotas, these are often negotiated across a band of items (eg we won't tariff your bananas if you don't tariff our steel). Within the EU this is set community wide, an individual state can't control it.

How can you possibly have common tariffs across different states with such a wide range of economies and completely different industries.

We also are not allowed to subsidise any of our industries and yet the EU has very extensive subsidy programs, again, the individual states can't control to match their own requirements.

The whole thing is like dictating to Asda and a small car dealer that both have to have the same profit margin on all their products - it just can't possibly work, they are completely different markets in terms of turnover, product and quantities.

Out all the way........

Don't forget that George Osborne backed an EU loan of £80 million to move Ford Transit production line from Southampton to Turkey in 2013 resulting in 600 job loses.

Labour Remain were canvassing parents outside a school and I had a pleasant chat with them. What struck me though was that 90% of the parents were all for "Leave".
Think the floating voters will vote Remain just because people are scared of change.

The lie on which the out campaign is based, is that the EU makes laws with which we have to comply.

In fact, it has no law-making powers. Any EU rulings are the result of agreement by the UK beforehand. Directives are issued, but we have already agreed to them. probably as a result of horse trading to secure the support of other nations for a directive we want. They also have to pass through the EU parliament which is staffed by MEPs for which we vote. It is rather more democratic than what goes on in Westminster.

The 'faceless bureaucrats' are civil servant, many of them on temporary contracts from the individual countries. The UK is very poor at this, because of our weak language skills so we are unrepresented but that's our fault. They are no more or less 'faceless' than our own civil servants, by the way, and probably rather less corrupt.

Much of the case against the EU is at the same level as the nonsense about straight cucumbers and bananas.

This is one from years ago-- decide if it was accurate or not

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...26F941430720&fsscr=0&FORM=VDFSRV

And since then we signed the Treaty of Lisbon

Sorry, Computerlab. Most can't read instructions,(as posted on page 1) let alone abide by them !


Put it up here so the public can view it if they wish.

[youtube]oAq1q1_swyM[/youtube]

hello granny its good to see you back again.

Yea so glad to have you back Granny the forumn definitely suffered by your absence. It just wasn't the same. Welcome back x

Thanks Cools and all. Had no one to talk to ! Computerlab, I have voted on page 1.

Welcome back granny,

Welcome back Granny---was just getting over the bereavement!

Excoriator said "The lie on which the out campaign is based, is that the EU makes laws with which we have to comply."

Can you justify that Excoriator as all the searching I find states that EU law takes precedent over UK law and where there is conflict EU law takes precedence and UK law has to be ammended

Panic over, Joey Essex is going to give us the true facts, this will be interesting he believes that his show will help those that are wavering to make up their minds, there again if you watch his show he probably could.

Have at look at david noakes site about the eu
Eu was started / grown by nazi party agenda in the 40s
Eu is about consolidation of power
The lisbon treaty as mentioned above has finally abolished the uk in 2009
Free masonary & bilderberg members run the gov and the eu
Thatcher looked anti eu and was quickly replaced by major
The eu is an unelected polit bureau like the soviet union
If you read 30 year old treatys hes right....

Dammit - Ive just voted on your Pg 1 poll Computer Lab and acting too quickly , voted for Leave instead of Remain. Apologies.

Still time to change your mind, Venice


Putting this thread up so people can open it up see where to vote Computerlab.


https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1012128/1.html

The poll so far is, 65% leave, 23% remain, it would be wonderful if this represents the nation as a whole. But only 48 votes out of a possible 12,000ish. McGee was right, apathy rules, who cares.

I've done loads of online polls including the national newspaper ones, in the recent week or so they have all been coming up around 70% leave and 30% remain. I'm presuming there are a larger amount of undecided than the official pollsters find and that most of these will succumb to the fear campaign to remain.

Hi dd. I am not doubting your research but if these figures are correct, how come the EU referendum Poll Tracker has shown them neck and neck for many weeks?

I'm wondering, I did an express poll about an hour ago and it was 70/30, just did another express one and it is 91% with quarter of a million votes, try it yourself HERE about quarter of the way down the page.

Yer,but it's The Express. Enough said.

Will it be the day of Independence or the Same as before??

Its just too close to call, the few people ive been chatting to today think the undecided would probably vote to stay in, and anyone who may be worried about job security would also vote to stay in.

I guess if we stay in, we can watch our politicians tear themselves to bits. And if not they will probably move to Europe lol.

What will happen??

The majority I've spoken too in the past all age groups is for "OUT" which sort of reflex all the Polls I've done,and yet Main stream News say its neck&neck,don`t make sense ...

My fear is if the Remain camp wins it will give the green light to totally sell our country down the pan. But as the song goes.... "Its better to have fought and lost than not to fight at all."

Sorry folks, don't want the border control back, difficult times.

So good luck REMAIN...

Gibralter 96% remain 4% leave ??

Fully expected apparently, the few people I've come across from there must be amongst the minority.

Newcastle was good news for Leave.

Sunderland wipeout - yeah!

Brilliant. I think that's a poke in the eye for the Remainers

Looks like Corbyn should have listened to himself and his members instead of his MP's #LEXIT

Looks like the Dimbleby and Laura Kuenssberg are getting more ashen faced with every vote that's announced.

They can probably see their investments dropping out of the bottom.

I am annoyed about the constant remarks made that the 'leave' voters have used it as a rebellion against the government etc. They couldn't possibly imagine that we who wear clogs and cloth caps, might just have a wee brain to work things out for ourselves. Arrogant lot down there in The City !!!

So far

Every English area apart from Newcastle (nearly 50/50) has been Leave

Every Welsh area is Leave.

Every Scottish area is Remain

North Ireland seems to have West:Leave, East Remain.

71% turnout in Wirral, 172,137 votes.

Getting quite excited. London thought they had it wrapped up.

Keep our fingers crossed. If Kieran wakes up to a 'Leave' win he'll be ecstatic.

Can you imagine the feeling of euphoria when we go out tomorrow ? Hold that moment, I think it will be precious.

It would be pretty bad if we vote in, when many others want a referendum and they vote leave. We'd be in it on our own, near enough.

St Helens = Leave

Are you on BBC ? Old spider legs has stopped dancing around. Think he's gone home...

Leave on 48.3 % now!

67% nationally, allegedly

Knowsley = Leave

Liverpool = Remain!!!!

Liverpool remain ????? Surprise !

Leave in lead again.

Boston 75.6% Leave, highest mainland score so far I think.

Birmingham might throw a spanner in the works for a while.

Brexit in the lead by 176,888

Wirral = Remain!!!!!

That's an even bigger surprise. Casper must be snoring or he'd be shouting about it....

Manchester and Tower Hamlets being strong Remains weren't a surprise.

Sefton - Remain!!!

Oh dear! Only just woke!!!

Nationalists kicked off already on local news....

#were'smehelmet

First time i have ever voted for the winning side....must do lottery this week.
In politics the nation has always been divided and often with more people not voting for the winning party.

Not bothered who is in power ....as long as they govern well.i dont see it as a change of pm.

What we dont want is the big money makers and industry seeing their rrrrs and taking the ball in with them.

OMG what a momentous day...whilst I am glad we out I can't help but feel very anxious and worried about the future. I think we are in for a very rocky time. David Cameron is now stepping down, who will take over ,will it be Boris? Hopefully this will be a testing time but at the end of it we will triumph.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ve-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe

Can I just say before you go David .. thanks for giving us the option to vote,Huge respect Sir and good luck for the future ..

Love him or hate him David Cameron I feel did his best to try and get this country back on its feet, I know many of you will shout Rubbish! I have a lot of respect for him and echo what Van says. Jeremy Corban will be next I suspect to go and I think for the Labor party that would be a good thing.

I agree with what you say, Cools. Unfortunately , he wasn't strong enough to deal with the EU machine, as they were not about to give him or us an inch. So, in many ways he in now the sacrificial lamb but we are free of that dreadful controlling body of bureaucrats, and now there are calls coming in from other EU countries ,wanting the same.
UK has put it's two fingers up to all the threats, and fear that has come from leaders, US, European leaders, EU Commission, World Bank , and London are probably reeling right now, but he has given us the chance. So thanks Dave, we won't sink, we will swim, and his legacy will be a far better one than Mr Blair and Mr Brown.

Petrol is up to £2 a litre, the Tesco shelves are empty of croissants, edam cheese, and champagne. The ferries to Calais have stopped running and the security at the Eurotunnel have spat their dummies out and gone on their jollies !

How will we survive ?

Nothing will change for you my little wage slave cog.Keep on turning and "Dream On" I will oil you just enough to stop you squeaking as usual.This country will still be run by the privileged few for the privileged few.

oil comes cheap at the moment.

I wonder what Scotland will do ? As France, Holland, Italy, Denmark so far, are this morning also calling for a referendum , I think Scotland will stay with us.

We could have been the only mugs left in Europe if they might get the chance to leave and we had voted to Remain. Us, Germany and eastern block/asia.

Markets are no different really to the beginning of the week, when they rose quite sharply. Maybe manipulated so the impact would see the overall drop as minimal. Same with the £ against euro.

Celebrating with Afternoon tea and a small slice of Victoria sponge sandwich cake later.

Oh my god!!! Its all happening. Its only hours since the vote/result!

Talk on the radio here already, that were "Coming for the 6 Counties!!!"

See, there not " plumb" here, give them an inch and they want a mile.

Yes yes yes
Uks grown some balls
Up yours tories
Im glad to be wrong
As usual " nation didnt do what i say im off " cameron resigns
Says alot
72% turn out . Get that in an election. Never. Ha

My concern is how companies who've been forced to adhere to EU rules will now conduct themselves.

Do you think the likes of United Utilities who have to spend millions of their profits to keep our seas, rivers and beaches clean will do so out of the goodness of their own hearts?

How long until raw sewage and waste is being dumped directly into the sea and rivers again? And for a region surrounded by water on three sides, I don't hold out much hope.

We were known as the "dirty man of Europe" for many years. Our foreign neighbours were shocked at how filthy we were, how we didn't recycle.

Lots of Union Jacks flying and in Windows today, wonder why? Lol....

The argument is that we will be able to set our own standards on such things. It could be said that if the Govt might be so keen on industry getting on its feet fast, they will relax rules - but normally , we are the country who takes difficult EU rules that the likes of France bend or ignore , and obeys them to the letter, even interpreting them more severely than necessary. Who knows what will happen. Can you trust any Govt?

I can understand your concern lollipop. There will now have to be a manned border will there not if one half is not in the EU ?

EU furious ! Furious at Cameron, and saying they don't want to wait 3 months to start negotiations. Turning the screws already.

Who wanted to be with an organisation that makes threats to decapitate anyway ?

That spells out that they were hoping to manipulate Cameron in the case of the Brexit vote. I wonder if he has suspected that, and has also decided to resign with that possibility in mind, rather than having his arm pushed up his back.

Wait and see. I bet he gets a job offer from Merkel or Schultz to be on the renegotiating team for our exit from the EU .Whether or not we will hear about that, remains to be seen.

We are the second largest contributor to the EU and without our money paying the bailout fees for all the others, ECB and IMF are in a really bad situation.

All of those things are encompassed in UK law, virtually all EU Directives are encompassed by National Legislation.

The discharges into the Mediterranean had far less treatment than the UK into its coastal waters, it is just that there was less people/industry around the Med so less pollution.

The Mediterranean is not tidal either, so what sits, stays.

Good on the uk to have the balls to say enough
Cameron so behind the uk hes off like a ferret. He knows we hate him and his destructive agenda & lies.
Sturgeons wittering on like a spoilt baby.
I bet the city bet & made alot of £ out the pound falling. They dont give a toss
Euro market is a small part of world trade
Calm down britain . Itll right itself
Its a big up yours to scumbag tories...more than anything

Watch all the other euro ( destroyed by the euro) countries want referendums themselves soon
Italy for example
Germany etc etc
All weve done is voted to be a " normal " country
Govern ourselves
Im made up!!
Go for a drink tonite

Watch all the other euro ( destroyed by the euro) countries want referendums themselves soon
Italy for example
Germany etc etc
All weve done is voted to be a " normal " country
Govern ourselves
Im made up!!
Go for a drink tonite

Are they serious? Theres a petition online , with Londoners demanding a second referendum as the 'out' result didnt suit them. The Govt is going to have its hands full dealing with Scotland , and Ireland , without problems in the capital . Surely theres no which way this petition can get anywhere, so its just a waste of precious time debating it -- time thats needed for politicians to work with Europe to sort out the best route through this divorce. Unpatriotic . undemocratic and selfish in my opinion.

Civil unrest maybe Londoners would like a Lexit from the rest of us. This us only the first day hope things settle down and this turns out ok. The EU are going to make an example of us to deterr others. Definitely a grit your teeth and hold on tight, it's going to be a bumpy ride...

Can't wait, it would be the ultimate action that would backfire on them, they might make our life difficult for a short while but the retaliation from other EU countries would be immense.

Why ? Arent the other countries feeling miffed at us and would like to see us squirm a bit ?

Already more than enough votes on it to command Parliament to debate it.

Is it just me or is the media attempting to put the 'Leavers' on some sort of a guilt trip?

Yes, right. Just been looking at the share prices. The ones I've looked at have soared by the end of the day. Higher than they have been for weeks.

The media are still promoting the fear factor. London ! say no more. Threats from Scotland and all doom and gloom. The media also seem to be trying to blame the over 60's. How very disingenuous. If the young didn't vote, not our fault.

We will be brilliant. Time to set up your own business !

What a weird day it's been. I had thought all along the Remain camp had it in the bag so to speak and even though I voted to leave, I was quite shocked and surprised to see the results. I am happy and yet feel somewhat 'flat' for some reason. As someone said earlier, it's as though the media are trying to make those who voted to leave feel guilty.
I don't like the way the younger generation (my children included) are disgusted with the way the vote turned out, but I honestly believe we have made the right decision. I truly hope that in time these youngsters will eat their words and kiss the ground we walk on by thanking us for doing this.
I hope that other European countries demand referendum for themselves after seeing that we've had the balls to leave, and in time hope the EU implodes up it's own ass.

Turmoil was expected and the markets always react negatively to change. There does appear to be small signs of recovery but I wish some from the Leave campaign would come out with a bit of re-assurance. I must admit that I am worried.

I truly hope that in time these youngsters will eat their words and kiss the ground we walk on by thanking us for doing this.

Lets hope your right then Elizabeth, I think its a bit to soon to be talking about right or wrong.

Boris wants us to take our time in leaving, no confidence, cold feet? Juncker has said you voted to leave don't hang around lets get it done,why drag it out, he's got a point, why not start talks asap? looks like the European vindictive streak is starting to show,I 'am sure we'll find out within the coming weeks.

I was being abit flippant yesterday when I said London maybe would like to exit from the rest of us, surprised to read that this has been said to the mayor Khan let London separate from Uk because they want to be in the EU!! What the hell is going on soon we,ll all be reverting into our own little clans /tribes, the mind boggles.....

Morning Casper . Lovely day
and good morning to all our lovely Brexiteers.
and a special good morning to our long lost Elizabeth , nice to see you

(Thinking )
Junker and co. are hoping to get Cameron in on the details before he goes, rather than dealing with someone they don't know how to manipulate from the Brexit side. I believe they are going to go for the jugular in an attempt to stop others from calling for a brexit. It's already been reported this morning that they are thinking how to dissuade other countries (or should we call them States ?)
This simply points to the control the EU wields and I wouldn't mind betting they will somehow dissuade by denying any other country, in the not too distant future, from doing the same.

We are the lucky ones to have escaped . I personally don't know what their problem is. They don't like us, they don't want us, they didn't listen to us. Remember Cameron saying he didn't want Junker in the hot seat. Merkel insisted Junker was the one for her. Unelected as are many others, they are simply put into position. That is not democracy, a system they took from the Greeks and now deny the Greeks the same.
Well, we are better than that and will keep our democracy, and apart from all the hysteria at the moment, I have no doubt and huge confidence in this country and it's people. We don't need to be shoved around ,we don't need to be blackmailed, threatened, scared, or twisted into doing what another wants and that is a lesson that each one of us should now remember. Bullying has also become part of the landscape since we joined the EU. Let's move in without the dog eats dog approach, we will be far better for it.

This is what happens with the politics of division,North/South divide, rich/poor.

Sadiq Khan is a trouble maker. He's shouting on behalf of the immigrants that are more populous in London than native Brits. That's why he was voted in. It's only individuals who initially cause the divides, usually in an attempt to secure their future position .

Didn't Stan Boardman tell a joke about a german Junker or was it another Fokker

The Labour party in Westminster struggled to reflect the language and aspirations of our traditional working-class communities. These Labour voters, aware of the long-term neglect of their voice and their aspirations, decided the result of the referendum.

It should be no surprise to anyone that they chose to comfortably ignore the Labour call to vote remain.

The national campaign washed over their heads. Instead they discussed and decided their views in the workplace, in the community and at home. With an extraordinary consensus, working-class Britain voted to leave.

Some Labour MPs now calling for a vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbin blaming him for the leave vote winning.
How they (PLP) can say they represent the views of the people who elected them shows how much out of touch they are with ordinary Labour voters.

Was this a speech I could make or Yvette Cooper with her eyes on the big job again

Let’s be honest, Labour needs to get its act together too. We’ve always believed in international cooperation, but we didn’t convince people in our industrial towns or coalfield communities that there would be a better future staying in Europe, nor were Labour’s answers on immigration convincing. That’s why so many people voted out.


I’ve long called for sensible immigration reform. And that’s what we should be setting out in a calm and serious way. It’s not enough for Labour to be a party for the big cities – now, more than ever, the Labour leadership needs to speak for the whole country.

Dread to think what would happen if it was left to the PLP to elect the leader as will happen in the Conservatives.

The Gettysburg Address

"government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

As long as we ignore the EU demands to speed up the process we will be fine.

Well the Eu will want to put the pressure on, the headless chickens here don't seem organised, most probably sharpening the knives to do each other down for the leadership, Boris looks like he's found a penny and lost a pound, I think there is a reluctance to take charge in case it all goes belly up and no one wants to take the responsibility of a massive fook up.

Think Liverpool will take a hit now EU projects still on the go and obviously no further money for that and may even try to claw back funds. It's a worrying time allright.

But until the UK Government formally invokes Article 50 we remain a full member of the EU as before and cannot be discriminated against. The UK Government can hold this off as long as it likes, I would consider somewhere around 6 months to 1 year as appropriate.

Well there's the first failing by UK to exit correctly - Lord Hill resigned as European Commissioner.

I think now they have achieved what they wanted, they have realised the consequences and are starting to bottle it.

Did you hear what he was just beginning to embark upon or had already started ? Securing finances from Insurance companies and similar, to be invested because they don't do much with their profits, and embedding us into the single market even further.

Now I think that's right, but you DD will probably correct me if it's wrong. What ever it was, he was now unable to continue the process to integrate the finances any more.

So his job was really redundant as from yesterday.

But now we will be EU-finance blind during our negotiation time. His replacement will be in charge of EU-tiddly-winks or something, it isn't finance.

It was a senior role in the commission given to UK as a trade-off with Junker's appointment.

Just think, in two years time we won't be paying money into the EU, and if Scotland bales out we won't have to pay for their free prescriptions, care home fees and University fees, all the things that we have to pay for ourselves in England, we would be quids in. Wouldn't we?

Congrats to the Leavers. I sense a bit fear after
reading some of regrets on having voted to leave. That
is "Buyers Remorse". Not to worry, I believe the
result was the right one. Here are some thoughts
from across the pond.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/06/24...awa-share-thoughts-on-referendum-results

Hello Granny, it's nice to see you're still here too

Yes, still here Elizabeth. They managed to shut me up once, but I cam back, not to be beaten.

Comments from Snowshoes , the link you put up I think is a lot mis -informed, just like the Remainers in London. They are verbally spouting that (quote" it's the ignorant people up north who don't want the immigrants".) Unfortunately the media will play on that, and to my mind it is wrong.
Most have had enough of Brussels telling us what to do, eating up all the money, letting governments take the blame for the changes they are having to make , due to EU legislation etc.etc. We can see how we were becoming more and more entrenched in this organisation, and we would not be able to escape or make any changes in the not so distant future. It's a good move and I honestly believe in the English and Welsh, and we can make it better again with gusto, because no fockers from the other side can stop us or interfere. Immigration was a part, due to housing and services but most certainly not the majority of reasons I don't think.

loco...you hit the nail on the head. Scotland ? I just don't know about her. There were 1 million who voted to Brexit, but she's going to take them all with her to her own eutopia. If she feels so strongly , then she'd better go, we lost something of our affection for the Scots in their last referendum. Let them go.

Yep, those northern counties like Cornwall, Devon, Kent, Suffolk, Norfolk and Dorset amongst many others! In fact the majority of counties north of Land's End

Only just looked at the region results, out of the nine English regions, London was the only remain.

With all this trouble going on about the vote, wouldn't surprise me if they overturn it somehow.

Its shocked America that the UK has now got the guts to get out.They are not even sure about there future president as they are saying both are corrupt.
We should stay out and keep out for the better.
France will be next to leave.

thanks Snowshoes.

Fishy sturgeon is looking at ways to get scottish msps to veto a uk exit..

Nicola Kranky, is trying to throw a spaniard in the works, did you see her with the others on Andrew Marr this morning? none of them could answer a straight question, sorry they could but didn't want to.

Isn't she just. 'My mummy said I'm a proper little madam' !

If there should be another referendum, does it mean that every time there is a General Election, and not satisfactory to some, we can have another one ?

Also sick and tired of hearing about the young people and their percentage of votes for staying in the EU. Anna Soubry another one who has just batted on about it on Question Time. Well I say to you Anna, when the election comes, would you like the over 40's to abstain and see the Tories sink to depths of despair for ever more ?

All these cabinet members from both sides are absolutely steaming, in particular Diane Abbot. Would it surprise us that promises of continued careers have been suddenly, put on the back burner.

Sorry. Could not resist

When do we stop? Second referendum? Third referendum? No sympathy for those who did not research before putting their X in the box and are now spitting the dummy.

Also. where is 'Gideon' aka Chancellor George Osbourne? Not been seen since Friday.

It was directed at Anna Soubry.

How many posters have signed the petition calling for a rerun? It's well over 3.5 million at the moment. Over 10% of the people who voted. It would appear that a lot of people who voted out, have at last realised the implications of leaving and are regretting it.

I was amused to hear that the petition had been started by a Brexit supporter, worried they might lose. Even more amusing is the current UKIP line about a lot of the signatories coming from the Vatican. Unfortunately for them you need to submit a UK postcode for your vote to be registered, and the system also monitors your URL so it you are not in the UK it will reject your signature! In other words its the same sort of lies as conned people into voting out in the first place!

You've not made that very clear. Is this what you are talking about.

Second referendum petition: Inquiry removes at least 77000 fake signatures, as hackers claim responsibility for 'prank'

Some 39,411 residents of Vatican City, home to Pope Francis, appeared to have signed
Telegraph.co.uk‎ - 6 hours ago

Vatican Population is only 451 !!

followed on by more of the same :


And documents passed to the BBC suggest Jeremy Corbyn's office sought to delay and water down the Labour Remain campaign. Sources suggest that they are evidence of "deliberate sabotage".

One email from the leader's office suggests that Mr Corbyn's director of strategy and communications, Seumas Milne, was behind Mr Corbyn's reluctance to take a prominent role in Labour's campaign to keep the UK in the EU. One email, discussing one of the leader's speeches, said it was because of the "hand of Seumas. If he can't kill it, he will water it down so much to hope nobody notices it".

A series of messages dating back to December seen by the BBC shows correspondence between the party leader's office, the Labour Remain campaign and Labour HQ, discussing the European campaign. It shows how a sentence talking about immigration was removed on one occasion and how Mr Milne refused to sign off a letter signed by 200 MPs after it had already been approved.

The documents show concern in Labour HQ and the Labour Remain campaign about Mr Corbyn's commitment to the campaign - one email says: "What is going on here?" Another email from Labour Remain sources to the leader's office complains "there is no EU content here - we agreed to have Europe content in it". Sources say they show the leader's office was reluctant to give full support to the EU campaign and how difficult it was to get Mr Corbyn to take a prominent role.

Its hardly a secret that Corbyn is anti-EU, his initial motivation to back remain was because he was concerned what the Tories would do with power handed back to them.

He was pushed into a hypocritical situation by his own MPs regardless that the opinion of the party members who he represented was uncertain.

He was not in either official campaign teams, why should he have pushed the matter hard? I should imagine he was uncomfortable with the lies that were being promoted by both sides - should he really have joined in with the deception?

Strangely enough, the um um party are in the depths of despair at this moment in time. Another "HOW MANY" resigned over night ?

They can probably understand, (and better later than never), what the majority of the population could see from the word 'GO', that he cannot lead a march of ants and no one will want to be cosying up now, to (as they used to be known)'The Reds Under The Beds'.

It's not difficult to reason who their supporters are.
We didn't want those fools in the 1970's and most with any sense will avoid them like the plague now.

Another HOW MANY have resigned overnight. Oh dear, oh dear, who's laughing now ??

Not many left now eh Casper ? Probably find Angel Eagle has been caught is a noose.

When people (especially politicians) say the majority of, or most of the people see the sense of their argument or statement I tend to think they don't know how the majority think until proven by a vote.
Jeremy Corbin was elected by the largest majority of any leader by those who voted for the leadership.
It's the platform he stands on (anti austerity, workers rights) - not that he can outshout or tell better lies more convincingly than most politicians.

I say let's see how it goes if there is another leadership contest and if he wins again.
I wouldn't be surprised if he won again those who say they couldn't work with him will split the party and possibly break away

I agree. Corbyn was chosen by the people because they were sick of New Labour, and that's all the other candidates were.

He's not the best choice (Alan Johnson or Chuka Umunna would be mine), but he was the best of a bad lot.

I can't wait until Corbyn gets another large mandate, blow the wind out of the right wing "labour" MPs.

How dare they argue with the members, if you don't want to represent them then just flip off to the tory party.

I just renewed my Labour party membership two days after the referendum.

Yep its all happening granny, poor old Jeremy, et tu Tom, Angela,etc, I think he is a decent guy genuine, but not leadership material, anyway things look brighter for the ums, Boris walking around like a wet dream,Gideon says no emergency budget, "yet" (wait till autumn) its all happening, or not, Merkel says no favours, but we will give you a "bit" of time to pack your jimjams, as Stan and Olly used to say another fine mess mmm.

It's a right old mess indeed, we could do with a superhero MP to come and sort it all out but they only exsist in comic books, don't know what's going to happen. I still feel they may overturn this decision you know.

I think it depends on how they see the economy shaping cools, that's why its the long goodbye, one foot in the door still

Hearing lots of people are joining or re-joining L.P

34 shadow Ministers have now quit. According to the Telegraph 2 mins ago. Angela Eagle went earlier in the day.

As I said in a previous post, it's fairly obvious now that there is about to be a new 'break away party', and Jeremy is about to stick with his own little clan despite votes of ' no confidence'

I find it odd, that he wanted the party to be behind him in the referendum, he hardly aspired to being convincing in his own beliefs for remaining and now this.

That in itself is worrying, as most leaders would quit in such a position, and this action of his gives cause to think of a mini Putin.

"You're stuck with me and I won't go no matter what" !!

Maybe he's setting up his own commy party. through the back door.

Great scenes from Parliament Square.

No mention of the referendum though...not one word.

He (Corbyn) is playing a very dangerous game now.

how many of these mps who have quit will walk back in to their job, I think once you quit thats that you're gone no walking back into your job. how can we trust a mp who quits then is back as a mp within days

They haven't quit being MPs, they have only quit their shadow cabinet position.

Corbyn has the mandate of the party members.

Not many. The members will de-select them.

Easy. Just change their names (and avatar) and nobody will notice!!

Just seen this and thought it to be extremely poignant !


It seems some British young are still complaining that the older generation has robbed them of a future in Europe.
Well fair enough, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
I've added two photos.
The first is a group of British kids around 20, who feel robbed of their futures in Europe (Ibiza

I watched a programme about messages to Blighty from soldiers in the war. These newsreels have just been discovered and shown to families of them. These men were very young and even though they were in Hell they tried to reassure their folks Back here. Lots of them never came home. Very poignant. The same thoughts came to me, how different to today's youth. I know which I prefer .

The very men who gave their lives to prevent us from being invaded by foreigners.

Lets not tar them all with the same brush, don't forget we have some of the same young ones defending our country now, just saying.

Oh yes I agree Casper they're not all like that but unfortunately these don't get the same publicity as the idiots do.. Our armed forces moral must be very low at the moment.All Heros in my eyes.

Take a peek at this, www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/project-betrayal-victims-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn

My thoughts exactly

I'm getting very worried about the number of "Remain" politicians and media that seem to be stirring up racial hatred just so they can blame it on "Leave".

http://brexitnotracist.com/

This is an interesting article on the issue of particularly the London remainers claiming the leavers are uneducated racists. Dont agree with everything he says , but his view on the darker side of the EU is pretty clued up as is his take on a lot of youthful Londoners.

A very interesting read there, Venice

I don't think anyone can deny that the main reason people wanted to leave was immigration, people became frightened by the vast numbers of immigrants/asylum seekers marching through Europe, all it would appear heading for the UK or so it seemed, tales of women being molested by immigrants all over Europe, terrorist attacks, all increased the fear factor, then we have a poster featuring immigrants, declaring coming near you soon, and who put this poster out dd? who planted the seed? now its come back to bite them.

Doesnt it strike you as odd that the main leave campaigners have all denied being associated with the claims made about the £350 m,the immigration poster etc, so who did it? Farage bigging it in Europe, if we are leaving lets go with some dignity, not with some childish na na remarks.

"Stirring up" or just reporting it?

Racist Attacks After Brexit Soar As Hate Crimes Reported To Police Increase By 57%

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...714594e4b08d2c5639adcb?qda9nrtud4fg5vcxr

Spot on Gibbo, the brexit campaign made promises they cant keep lit the fuse and stood back now all of a sudden the remain side are the bad guys fanning the flames of racism.

Farage is spouting in Europe giving them the two fingers, again fanning the flames, this makes it more likely the EU will dig its heels in, they have made it crystal clear that there will be no deal done on free movement, Farage basically replied well we don't have to trade with you, carried away with his own self importance, all I can say if we do accept the four main terms for trading within the EU there will be some very very unhappy teddy bears causing more division and upset, and could lead to the rise in popularity of an extremist political party.

I think Farage's behaviour was nothing short of outrageous , despicable , conceited, rude, arrogant , and like the raving of a meglamaniac. He definitely will have made the EU parliament feel more hardened towards us.

Which indeed shows how bad the EU is, it is exactly the same situation as having to appease the Mafia - do what we say or you will be punished. It is not a progressive free trade organisation it is a protectionist organisation run virtually by one country to the detriment of many others.

The Remain side are lighting the fuse on the racist stuff. If politicians repeatedly start saying "do not attempt to snort mustard" guess what happens to hospital admissions for snorting mustard and guess what happens to the number of reports of suspected mustard snorting. It is the worst kind of manipulation!

Youre not alone DD. Scary stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9otn_5LVQq8

Why is Mr Cameron not allowed to attend the EU meetings if everything is supposed to be the status quo until we leave. We are still having to pay in fully, a full member, so why doesnt he have a right to attend ?Surely things will be happening within the 2 years that he should be allowed to have a say in , even if the pm doesnt set off article 50for quite a while ?

I've been looking into this, Article 50 is a very short document and the media and politicians have been misleading what it says on a number of aspects.

It prevents Cameron from taking part in council decision process ONLY on Council matters regarding the exit negotiations during the two year period after Article 50 has been invoked.

As you quite rightly say, Article 50 has not been invoked yet so it should be business as usual but even if it had been invoked then all non-exit matters should be business as usual until the final exit. Though the wording isn't very exacting, reading it the other way doesn't make sense.

The same was said of Farage the other day, however Article 50 does not mention any limitations on MEPs or EU Parliament matters, only on Council matters.

ARTICLE 50

Thanks DD
What a horrible web of lies and deceit the country is caught in . Also -worst crisis since lord knows when , and looking at the TV live parliament, the MP seats are two thirds empty.

Other than question time and a few other matters, its normal to only have about a dozen MP's in parliament.

So by saying don't pander to racism, they are encouraging it and that they planned that as a tactic to encourage it, is that what you are saying dd? or possibly they could have said nothing and been accused of doing nothing to prevent it, on that reasoning they should have said go out and abuse immigrants and no one would have bothered, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

They are politicians not police.

I don't think a politician telling criminals not to commit a crime has any positive affect whatsoever. However, politicians repeating things like this and it being echoed in the media makes it sound like it is a common place thing to do and increases the likely hood of that crime.

Blaming it on the Leave campaign shows how un-moralistic it is, there was nothing racist about the leave campaign but again, politicians are repeating it was racist and that can only encourage racist behaviour.

The more people that are perceived to be doing something, the more chance more people will do that thing. I'm not suggesting a news blackout on it, but unnecessarily increasing the publicity for political reasons can only increase the chances not decrease it.

Did I imagine the poster with queues of immigrants on it and Farage implying that we were going to be overun by immigrants and facing a Turkish invasion, oh wait I forgot, he denied he had any involvement with that, Boris also denied he had anything to do with it, why? because that propaganda was viewed by all sides as racist and distasteful, however it served their purpose job done, it has without doubt shown a disturbing undercurrent within our society, it chills the blood to hear that some have been told to back their bags and go and children told they don't belong here, the power of suggestion eh dd.

Immigration/border controls are absolutely nothing to do with racism, very nearly every country has immigration controls - its nothing new - but yes it is political fodder to twist and rehash into inciting racial hatred by proxy.

The picture was real not faked, but people are getting vilified for stating facts these day.

I understand the picture was of real asylum seekers in Europe but we all know what it implied, nod nod, wink wink, I am totally in agreement with stricter controls on immigration, a point that could have been made without the poster,throughout history posters have been used to influence people certainly during the last 2 world wars, and those that gave the nod to its use knew exactly what they were doing and the impact it would have, and they weren't wrong were they?

And there is the problem, the "nod nod wink wink" comes from the Remain side not the Leave side.

The Leave campaign didn't even say it was going to reduce immigration.

The poster wasn't just a poster - it was a photograph showing real events. This was inexplicitly compared to another picture of a queue which was pretty much unrelated other than the perverted convenience of incorrectly linking it to Nazism.

Morning dd, yes you are quite right they didn't promise to reduce immigration, but as I said earlier they implied it, by the very use of the poster/photograph and the words breaking point, they have been very clever(now there's a surprise) they have weaseled out of their non existent promises, and on that basis alone I am now glad I didn't vote to leave I would have felt suckered, UKIP and leave misled people and they have been dishonest both before and after the referendum, and you can bet your bottom dollar we will do a deal with Europe including free movement, and a watering down of workers rights to follow, stitched up like the proverbial kipper.

I don't feel suckered and I voted leave.

I do feel disgusted by the antics of both Leave and Remain campaigns and equally if not more disgusted at the antics of many EU bureaucrats.

But as I have said before - the referendum vote is nothing to do with people or campaigns, it could have been Attila the Hun running the Leave campaign and I would still have voted Leave.

The Referendum was about political issues in the EU and our national independence and that is what the vote was for, not if you fancy Gove at your birthday party etc.

I hope by now that it is realised that Boris was actually a complete set-up to discredit the Leave campaign in a deal with Cameron - but it backfired with gusto!

I agree with DD on the reason for voting to leave. Not interested in any view on Boris, as the important thing is we as a country can now start to go forward in the wide world.

I look at it very different to you dd, as you say the whole brexit charade was the brainchild of morally corrupt and dishonest politicians, needless and uncalled for, look at the result brought about by people, so no I wouldnt follow any Tom Dick or Harry nor Attila the Hun, the people of this country were used, the referendum was a sham a fallacy a tool used to further someone's political ambitions.

Which political issues in the EU have directly affected you?

Which EU laws have been introduced that have been negative to you?

Just wondering what views of the Socialist and Democrats (S&D) Group in the European Parliament are over the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn and the PLP.

Support for or against Jeremy Corbyn remaining as leader?
Can't seem to find anything in the media (possibly not what the media want to hear)

The direct affect on an individual is irrelevant to something on this scale, but as you ask ....

Having to prepare contracts for euro-tendering despite there not being a hope in hell of an offshore bid. This cost us a lot in time, money and delays.

The price of everything I buy is affected by us being in the EU, mostly adversely.

The inability to support British businesses through my purchases.

The annoyance that some of my non-EU purchases are not fully taxed. While that makes things cheaper it also means that EU and especially UK businesses are at a disadvantage.

That I have to see abominations like the New Brighton clown knowing that money could have been spent better elsewhere, our own government is capable enough of wasting money, we do not need yet another level doing it as well.

That companies like peel holdings can get a monopolistic hold on important land and nothing can be done about it

Having to spend money and time supporting campaigns to get us out of the EU.

Being worried about my and others safety when shock absorbers have been removed from the MOT test.

Knowing that some of my money goes to pay the ridiculous cost of EU bureaucracy when there are British workers unemployed through the actions of the EU.

Being disgusted that family members (and others) died in the wars and now we are giving our sovereignty away to the country they tried to protect us from.

It is a pointless question, it is similar to asking what affect the tide has on a single grain of sand, it affects it in loads of ways but its totally irrelevant compared to how the tide affects the whole beach.

Well put DD

Hear, hear DD, have you ever thought of running for public office?

Who cares? I doubt they do now we are leaving. If there is going to be a credible Labour party, he must go as soon as possible.

Hi Chris , nice to see you. Glad that Wiki is still a draw. From what I heard this morning, there is a new plot plan afoot in the Labour party to do just that .

Its becoming a joke really....
The rats are leaving the sinking ship
All the waffle about seeing britain through it....
Then they get off...
What annoys me is this " its not the result we wanted & expected" BS where the country want to back track on the nations decision...as tho we where un intelligent bigots race haters etc etc
Its done!! Get on with it....
What a mess

It was never about what the people wanted, we were just used in a politicians game of thrones, Cameron was pushed into calling a referendum, now their little "game" has become reality they don't know what to do, we were manipulated and lied to, and ultimately and as always it is the majority who will pay the price.

Casper what i meant is the massive negative media spin & view of brexit being the wrong way to go
It was the right way.
I did it to stir the pot if anything
All mps are incompetent narcissist corrupt ... bags who feather their nests from an eton clique.
I listen to chris hitchens george carlin noam chomsky etc when i want a "truth"

I know sven, I do it myself sometimes to get the debate going, we have a lot of informed people on wiki and although I don't always agree, I do respect their input and point of view.

Corbyn's position reminds me of a few lines from "The Black Cottage" by Robert Frost.

"For, dear me, why abandon a belief
Merely because it ceases to be true.
Cling to it long enough, and not a doubt
It will turn true again, for so it goes.
Most of the change we think we see in life
Is due to truths being in and out of favour.
As I sit here, and oftentimes, I wish
I could be monarch of a desert land
I could devote and dedicate forever
To the truths we keep coming back and back to."

Corbyn's position isn't a problem, he has the support of his party, its the sneaky divisive manipulation of a relative few who are the problem.

Angela Eagle can call a leadership election whenever she wants - but she knows she will probably lose to Corbyn.

If she waits, she is hoping Corbyn will resign in which case it would be highly unlikely he can enter the leadership battle.

Which is the most democratic? Which one ignores the majority of the party?

Her actions are very selfish, even if Corbyn resigns the membership will follow him. Eagle for all her divisive actions will be hated.

She might get the support of the MP's but she risks getting deselected by her constituency or even thrown out the party all together.

There's a bloke who comes in our pub by the name of Friedrich Nietzsche who says "There are no facts, only interpretations", clever bloke Fred.

members of a party elect a leader, but all remember at the end of the day its the people of the country that elect a government and after a period of time if those people live in a democratic country they are given a chance to elect the same or a different government.

That's true for the Labour Party, its not true for the conservatives.



Yes, democracy, but do you think there is another Labour candidate that will get decent support from the Labour party members.

A lot of Labour supporters voted UKIP because the party was not listening to its members, likewise quite a proportion voted Leave. Many have looked at the Green party or Respect. There is a risk that the Lib Dems manage to resurrect as well

If any Labour government wants to be elected, it must be able to rely on a substantive amount of votes from Labour supporters before standing a chance in a general election.

There is only Corbyn got that support at the moment, the votes of 40 MPs mean absolutely nothing in a general election, especially if they have been deselected by their constituency.

Wrong; members of the Conservative party elect a leader, even though they are only given a choice of two.

Jeremy Corbyn is clearly incapable of leading an effective opposition in the commons. If he doesn't step down, I'm convinced that what will happen is that a new, centre-left party will form; let's say they call it the Social Democratic Party, and the result will be that no party will be able to remove the Conservatives from government.

Corbyn wont get anywhere anyway....hes too socialist vegetarian grandad for the self interests out there
I listed their "plan" before on here
Like farage got....hell be character assasinated/ puppet tory media bashed to the hilt even from within
If you watch david noakes on edge media on youtube
Its a plan thats been forged from the nazis since the 40s
No one gets anywhere if not from eton & a bilderberger and in the right clique

We chose to ignore it twice before and the politicians are ignoring it yet again, quite a lot of the population can see it but are afraid of being accused of racism.

I believe Jeremy Corbyn is sincere enough, and he doesnt seem extreme to me, but as someone said, truth is a matter of perception ,and it seems in politics that its a permanent seesaw , sliding from one extreme to the other ,pausing for a while centrally, so I think its likely that the present Labour situation may well be perceived by those who remember, as a similar scenario to the seventies where the genuinely sincere Labour leader John Hamilton was carefully nudged into position to eventually be used as a puppet by Militant tendency led by Derek Hatton -Could Corbyn = Hamilton once he's in?

Not clued up enough in politics to know if this is the same sort of thing or not, people are saying its not, but it does look similar and I agree with Chris , that if you end up with someone who is perceived as too left wing, (whether he is really or not) then it means you wont attract people who are sitting on the left margins of Conservatism , so how can you increase the Labour votes.

.

[youtube]v=h2D8MB5s8Jg[/youtube]

There is a way out ..
Source
My mouse must be playing up

That's worth two

lol! Brilliant.

If some of you didn't see the breakdown of this referendum , it does make interesting reading. Particularly at the bottom where all areas have been printed. Scotland's vote was not as extreme in favour of 'remain' as one might have thought either i.e. in percentages .


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028