.

I never have and probably never will vote UKIP but tonight I watched their Party Political Broadcast at tea-time on ITV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnrFddSJWsk

It helped me make up my mind.

Not forgetting that Turkey has been offered some back door deals to get into Europe in exchange for co-operating with our attacks on the middle east.

There is no way that Turkey could meet the entry requirements for Europe inside the next 25 years but could well happen regardless. The same happened with Greece and look what has happened there, Greece's government are at the beck and call of Germany.

I vote unreservedly UKIP in the European elections but its not a party I want to run our country, however if it came to a choice between Liberals, Green Peace, Conservatives and UKIP, I would put UKIP in parliament. The UKIP May 2015 helps explain my decision HERE, at least UKIP are realists.

Did anyone see Frank Fields interview on tv today? He spoke a lot of sense. Not really criticizing Mr Cameron, but putting forward certain changes that should also be made to secure our sovereignty. He was very interesting to listen to and made points in easy to understand explanations.

Going on what he said, I think there is so much more that must be dealt with including having our own Supreme Court, which Boris Johnson has also called for, instead of us having to be under Germany's Federal Constitutional Court.

I'll be voting for out, unless things change drastically in our favour. It might cost us a fortune, but we will no doubt re-coup that over the years in saving the millions we pay for the privilege to be a part of it.

As he said, EU will take us to the 'enth degree before making real concessions or decisions as they did with Greece. We need to be guarded on the unfortunate double dealing and tricks that could come out of all this.

We already have a Supreme Court, although technically it is out-ranked by the European Court of Human Rights but this in word only - if a UK court and the ECHR have different rulings it is up to the UK government to choose how to resolve the case. The UK Government cannot overrule the ECHR's decision but it can ignore it.

The ECHR cannot overrule a UK court's decision.

A UK court cannot overrule a ECHR's decision.

Yes, I think I meant to say that he would like there to be a Supreme Court in the UK., as the German Federal Constitutional Court.

What I think you meant to say is that BJ wants the UK Supreme Court to have the power to challenge EU law in the same way as the German Federal Constitution Court can.

However, the German federal Constitution Court was set up to challenge Germany's own laws independently of the rest of their legal system, I don't think its power over EU law has been tested as yet but presumably they can impose will on their Chancellor which is a more democratic solution than we have.

Another point of view to UKIP's broadcast:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ng-advert-denouncing-turkey-islamophobia

Probably right. Turkey population has doubled in 40 yrs from
40 million to 80 million. Turkey is huge a concern, and always has been. They will run in this direction if given the opportunity. These people are fed up living in their own countries in squalor, and who can blame them ? They don't even need the money for their air fare anymore, they can walk from there.

Why does everyone jump on the Islamophobia band waggon ? We could start shouting that Islam is anti-semitic and anti Christian .....stupid people.

Europe, as it was intended is actually finished in my opinion and only those with significant interest such as businesses or EU jobs will be wanting to remain.

@DD. Yep, I think you might have got it there. That's what he was saying.

The trouble is that they don't want to stay amongst their own squalour but come out of it and bring all their medieval baggage with them and believe me they won't be satisfied until we all toe their line. You've only got to watch the programmes in which they appear, have a good old moan and then say that we should change our ways to accommodate their world view. Last Sunday's "The Big Question" is a good example of what I'm on about, they couldn't agree amongst themselves about what they wanted. Had experience of Turks in West Berlin for 7 years, they're not all bad but those who are more than make up for those who aren't. I even ended up in court because of one of the lying gits. Cleared by the way and in true German fashion he got done instead for telling porkies. Believe me, there may be trouble ahead. (As an adjoiner, the Turkish Cypriots were brilliant, no chip on their shoulders with the Brits.)

That is not what the UKIP broadcast said, it said 15 million could leave for Europe not the UK. Why are newspapers allowed to get away with drivel reporting like that! It is just plain irrefutable lies.

I lean towards 'out' most of the time based on what Ive heard so far, but its hard to call , with all the flipping lies that are being trotted out and not a lot of reliable information .
I feel sure that after a bit of Brexit sorting time, economically and securitywise , we would manage fine but my main worry would be that I believe our exit would upset , seriously irritate, and alienate many countries (including America) big time and I fully imagine that whereas on a level playing field, we would have survived Brexit well, we may instead be looking at spiteful sabotage, plotting ,exclusion techniques and general revenge behaviour by the members of other governments, which if carried out in 'gang' mode , could seriously prevent us getting ahead economically. Although we are an island, and should be able to defend ourselves better than some, I can imagine that the remaining EU countries wouldnt lift a finger to help if we got into difficulties securitywise/invasionwise . Look at Ireland during the war, its said they deliberately left lights on to guide the bombers to the uk.

I imagine the huge percentage would wish to end up in the UK. English is their second language as is the same with most countries. Not only that, for decades, all these countries had a dream of getting to UK, why do you think they all declared undying love for any English woman ? A means to an end. Same in the Arab countries, some of them have wives all over the world. Australia, UK, France... Very convenient!

You need to read the Cranborne Report, while Ireland was officially neutral, they assisted the allies on the largest scale possible while keeping the facade of neutrality. 50,000 Irish people joined the UK armed forces voluntarily.

Ireland risked the wrath of America by remaining officially neutral, the UK even tried to bribe the Irish government by offering them Northern Ireland if they dropped their neutrality and joined the allies. Overall it didn't do Ireland any harm, the Americans seemed to forgive them overnight as I am sure they would us if we left the EU.

America are a bit scared of the EU developing into a super-power, if the UK broke up the EU we may even be treated as heroes once the dust settled.

Weird this. Last night I was telling some guys at my snooker club that I had started this poll and just out of interest we decided to take a poll in the club. The result were exactly the same as the results, so far, here. If this is an indication of the public's feelings it does make you wonder where the 'Stay' votes will come from.

Youre right DD, I havent really read much about Ireland in the war myself. Maybe the bit Id heard about was just actions of the IRA in places, and not 'normal' Irish.

If we pulled out of the EU it might break up (since we are the second biggest financial contributor) and I think America would miss being able to torment Mr Putin with their military excercises etc as the EU boundaries creep closer to Russia!

Say if our financial imput isnt as important as Im imagining ,so the EU didnt break up , how much capacity do you think they (remaining EU) have to 'hamper' us in our journey without them?

Because this and your straw poll respondents are very local, similar, and not representative of an entire nation?

Could we keep this poll running and up to date as once it's gone off the screen , many members won't be aware of it. I'm sure there would be more votes by now.

Try pm Palemoon,Muzzy he/she put the thread up

I have forwarded a request to Mark.

I cant see an end date to the Poll so it would keep running.

Just been listening to Nicola Sturgeon. How well these politicians can twist and manipulate to get the end result they wish for(or try to) .

She will campaign to stay in EU. In 2013 she was campaigning to become independent from the rest of UK. Now she wants the rest of the UK to vote to stay in EU.

If we vote to leave, Scotland will have to have a referendum to go independent from UK. So what's the change ??

She can take Scotland to where she wants. I believe that Scotland has lost all credibility with the rest of the UK due to her actions.
Strong, she may be, but the general population of the rest of the UK, couldn't give a monkey's anymore. You can't pull the same stunt twice and we'll vote how we want to, without listening to what Scotland may like us to do.

A cynic may think she wants to stay so she can use it to split with Scotland, if we vote to stay does that mean she will then not try to split again?

If we vote leave she will use it saying we "Scots" cant control our own destiny. ironically why we are having the vote in the 1st place.

I suppose which ever the vote goes she can spin it too suit her agenda.

I think Wee Bernie would like to see "The Auld Alliance" reinstated. Listened to her this morning as well, she's a crafty one I'll give her that. Still, politician, say no more.

I think it's time we in England had a referendum to remove Scotland from the United Kingdom.

I think we should have a referendum on which referendums ( referenda?) we should have.

Now we shall have to sort the chaff from the wheat, but will voluntarily be excluding anything that comes forth from Ian Duncan Smith.
What a shame he's in the out team. Boris could make the case, whilst the other jerk mentioned above, could destroy it in one easy sentence.
Chris Grayling comes across as a weak character too, but he probably isn't.
Benn, doesn't sound so convincing that he truly believes in the 'yes' camp, but hands are bound. Saying that, neither did Cameron. Maybe he's not actually happy with the deal but can't change his mind.

Lots for us to think about.

Chancellor George Osborne says quitting the EU would cause a profound economic shock

What authority does someone, whose financial qualifications stretch to a BA in history, have to make a statement like this?
My 'A' level in Maths surely trumps him

I suppose the same as Gordon Browne. Another with a First Class Honours in History.


There must be a connection with history and Chancellors, which we have yet to understand.

Not going to vote as the news knew who won the election 5 mins after the polls closed so it all fixed anyway, and if everyone in the UK did vote with all the people from the EU living here the vote will be to stay anyhow

Duck,..... ? Election results are not known before the election. What happens is; that people similar to 'market researchers' stand outside the polling stations all day (on the day of the election) and as voters exit the polling stations, they are asked who they have voted for.

All the figures are scrambled into a computer and an overall pre-result is spat out from another computer.
That's how they get a pretty good idea of who wins. Elections are not fixed, in this country !

People from other EU countries living here will not be allowed to vote. It's British only votes.

Now do yourself a favour, Duck, and vote when the time comes.

Well said Granny. Everyone should vote in this, it's so important.

I don't even discuss politics with family if they don't vote. If they don't feel it's important then in my opinion the points on any issue are useless.

I understand if people go and spoil if they can't decide as that shows no faith but to point blank refuse in my opinion is wrong, I would make it compulsory with a vote for no party added.

Were only in it cause as usual decisions where made in self interested labourites etc ( in 2004 to open the door fully)
Cameron the actor ,as pete hitchens says, is 100% pro europe but panders to having to look like he isnt ,like hes doing us a favour....if ukip wasnt around would he even bother!?
Anything this scummy gov says to do....i do the opposite. Out out out i say.
All the scaremongering goes over my head....banks & big companies run this country so theyre not wanting out. No way !!

im out, what did we do without all the "EU" workers 10 years ago, we all done okay, get shut of them, no more claiming benefits for housing or working tax credits, more room for OUR children in school and hospitals, and more jobs for our children in future, these people have 2 options, stay here or go back home, us English people have to stay here, once they have bled the county dry off they go to their new life back home with OUR money that we have paid in taxes, i work 7 days a week, over 70 hours a week to get a holiday and a deposit for a mortgage, and dont claim a penny, we are an island and ill sink if we carry on the way we are

Mr Farage....we may not like all of him, but he certainly puts the case forward here for a Brexit.
Frau Merkel and Monsieur Hollande look quite uncomfortable.

[youtube]SGg4czAEHD4[/youtube]

...and Donald Tusk

[youtube]IenXucdmfDk[/youtube]

I've always liked Farage. I would never vote UKIP but there's no denying he's like a breath of fresh air to politics.

Yeah! look at the gobs on Merkel and Hollande.

Hear Hear Mr Farage....

I like him.he is straight to the point and what he is saying is true.
Thanks for sharing granny

Its easy to be liked and popular, you just tell people what they want to hear, hail fellow well met,likes a beer, thoroughly nice chap, he reminds me to much of a car salesman, the same ilk as Cameron and co, I mean look at IDS, what a genuine thoroughly nice bloke he turned out to be who would have believed it? worrying about the disabled and the non Tory voters, the salt of the earth.

UKIP was the only party with a fully costed budget at the last national elections - you can't do that by just saying what everyone wants to hear.

Farage's attitude completely changed when he realised he was actually in with a chance of getting a decent number of votes and he stepped up to the mark.

I'll vote UKIP at every European Elections, we can't allow the United States of Germany to develop any further. They run the European Bank and now they are building up their population yet again - we never learn, these things need to be nipped in the bud early, not late.

Has anyone seen the report on tv about the trading posts in the Sahara, Niger ? Blimey, they're coming to Europe from everywhere. Cameroon, Liberia, the money changing hands and hundreds being driven off into the night to their destination. I assume that will be Libya, Morocco or Algeria . The African migrants are destroying Italy, and the Syrians are now going via Libya to Italy again.. There's no stopping them.

Shut that blasted tunnel.

Will we be in a different position altogether in the future, if we stay in Europe ?

I watched it today gran, talk about scary!
From what I know I would definitely be voting
to leave.

Hear Hear the EU is our downfall and its supporters, call me Dave Cameroon and Ossie Imbecile Osbourne are a joint disaster planning to happen. Out is the in thing ...... and I am a Conservative voter - oh wo is me .......

One thing that I do like about the In/ Out debate is that Tory voters are going against 'Call Me Dave'.

Let the Civil War continue
..hehe

another hear hear.we need to get out.

It's absolutely nothing to do with someone's political preference is in this country. This is not an election for our governing party, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously hasn't a clue about what's going on ! Here's a very brief outline and a helping hand .

[youtube]ywJS7swbqeE[/youtube]

Have you got a link for this Granny?I did not see this if it was on in the daytime.

Here is some of it snowy
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35923510
and
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32534302

Thankyou Snowshoes.

Another little surprise involving the EU:

John McDonnell has been banging on about re-nationalising the steel industry. He obviously doesn't now much as according to this, EU rules don't really allow it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904

The UK government has said it will consider helping Port Talbot steelworks - but any intervention risks falling foul of European Union state aid rules.

The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.

The final decision on whether state aid is allowed is down to the European Commission.

It applies rules agreed by every country in the EU.

But the steel industry is a special case.

Because the European Union already produces more steel than it needs, the member states of the EU agreed to allow uneconomical producers to go bust, rather than let governments save them.

So that is the first question for Port Talbot and the other parts of Tata Steel UK - can they survive on their own? If they can't then the government's hands are tied.

Possible exceptions

There are some ways round the rules.

The first is national security. Under the 1957 Treaty of Rome, one of the founding treaties of the EU, countries can "take any measures necessary" if an industry is essential to national security.

This is supposed to refer to arms, munitions and "war material". Does it apply to hot rolled steel? Legal experts think it's unlikely, although Lord West, the former First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff has told the BBC that UK production is vital for the defence sector.

The second is a move to avoid "a serious disturbance to the economy". This was one of the arguments used to justify the bank bailouts.

It might also be used to justify aid to the Greek banking system.

But the loss of 15,000 UK jobs - or even 40,000 UK and European jobs - may simply not be considered a serious enough disturbance by the European Commission to justify a government handout.

When state aid isn't state aid

The last option isn't state aid at all. A government can own a company under state aid rules but it is not allowed to keep it going if it would otherwise fail.

This is the closest the government can come to "nationalisation".

If the government can convince the European Commission that buying a business is a sensible move that any investor would make for a profit then it is not classified as state aid.

However with Port Talbot reportedly losing £1 million a day this may be a tough sell.

So how are we allowed to own

BBC
Channel 4
Wave Hub
Student Loans Company
Working Links

Then you can look at localised companies - who exactly owns:-

Merseytravel
Manchester Airports Group

Other European countries have been running unapproved state aid for years, eg France and their indirect power subsidies which created an unfair advantage to all of of their industry.

The Tariff system is their for a purpose, its to protect our own country from financial assault from other countries.

Despite our Government about us being so productive etc, our balance of payments are the worst they have ever been since 1782 or something, have a look at the graph since 1955 HERE

Possibly because they are not competitive with EU member states, i.e. Industry . Everything is all so tied up hidden facts, agendas and treaties, it's difficult to reason on anything.

BBC is paid for by the license fee, so the public must own it.

Student Loans, is non profit making, and Working Links is in public, private and voluntary ownership. Don't know about the others, but that could be something to do with such organisations.

Surely everyone knows that State subsidies exist in the E.U. often in obscure form. France and Italy are notorious in this respect. Our problem is that we're British, and so follow the rules.

So are the steel works!

Did anyone see News Night, last night. A full programme given to the subject of Sovereignty and the EU .
Interesting, and a few more bits we didn't either know or realise. Peter Mandelson on it for the 'IN' campaigners and what a pain he was.

I'm convinced he going off his trolley, but another one of those who constantly interrupts another who is speaking. Tactics , yes, but annoying and rude, as we need to hear exactly what is being said. So, he has made me more determined to support Brexit.

They are going to do another one (next week I think) and it seems to be all that is being given , so far.

Mandelson always was the epitome of what a Brit and a politician shouldn't be like.

He's a worming little tyke. All I see is Gollum/Smeagol

According to todays news, the IMF (International Monetary Fund) says that Brexit could cause severe global and regional damage.
Not sure why we should be supporting the globe ! We pay enough in foreign aid, unlike others.


Top 10 reasons to oppose the IMF.

http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose

All the more reason the rest of the world will cooperate with us if we do leave the EU, most countries won't be daft enough to muck up their own financial status as retribution for the Brexit.

It would amaze me if the EU would not be pretty cooperative, they will make a lot of noise before but when it has happened they have little choice or admit that the EU was a diplomatic takeover of the UK.

Dodgy daves "better in" leaflet came yesterday. Does he have the authority to speak dictate as HM Government. He is only prime minister not the government.

Its perverse. Not much different from the government sending out a leaflet saying to vote tory at the next election. I am sure they have breached protocol on this, and maybe the law.

Government pamphlet also arrived here today.

Possibly whilst another arrival of drowning migrants were being rescued between Libya and Italy..............

"There are concerns that the efforts to shut down the Eastern Mediterranean route via Greece and the Balkans could encourage more people fleeing violence in Syria and Iraq to attempt the even more dangerous Central Mediterranean route via Libya.

However figures from the Institute of Migration show that those currently arriving in Italy from Libya are predominately citizens of African countries

Italian authorities, giving details of the rescues carried out in the Straits of Sicily, said 2,154 migrants had been rescued from 16 dinghies and a rowing boat on Tuesday.
Another 1,850 were rescued in the same area on Monday.
Mr Tusk told the European Parliament that there was no ideal solution to the migration crisis: "The deal with Turkey is not perfect and we are fully aware of its risks and weaknesses." Regarding the Central Mediterranean route, the EU "must be prepared to help and show solidarity to Malta and Italy", he said.............

So we are all being called upon again to help Malta and Italy, yet again by none other than Mr Farage's pet hate , the smiling assassin Mr. Tusk.(he just doesn't smile very often)

I haven't read this little pamphlet yet, but the cover says ,Why the Government believes we should vote to remain. The questionable word being 'believes' . None of us know and aren't likely to , until after the event. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We have already had so many years with this EU institution and so far, it doesn't seem to have brought any of us much happiness and agreement. All they do is argue. More time and money spent on meetings and summits and more meetings and flights and limousines and entourage and hotels and reporters and champagne and more failure to agree ,followed by a meeting to arrange a further meeting. What a massive waste of money ! Maybe their should be more transparency on how much that lot costs.
Does anyone remember the 'time and motions' in the 1970's. What happened to them ?

Could it all change ? Doubt it.

Labour party in-leaflet arrived today, I seem to have misplaced it already.

Corby has stated the reason he wants to stay in Europe is because he knows the government will ride roughshod over the people if we exit Europe. Basically saying the Europe is the lesser of two evils.

What a ridiculous argument of his. That's obviously his defeatist attitude coming out already.
Who is to say, the next Government to implement such changes will be Tory ?

My opinion is that, those at the top now, would like to secure promotion for their next position in Europe or World platform. Like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, and many ex prime ministers from other countries have done so.

Where do they go for a job, if Europe is not available ?

I've been wondering if the little snake pays his business taxes as his wife runs a Fair Trade coffee company from his home. She imports and sells it for £10 a bag , whilst the workers on the coffee plantations in Mexico, earn less than the minimum wage. So he has no right to put forward his views as he did today. Double standards in many ways.

Not quite, she sells coffee she buys from from Cafe Mam who are Free Trade certified and in turn get their produce from Free Trade co-operatives. With the source having multiple sequential credentials like that it would satisfy most purchasers.

Let's get this right.

Mrs Corbyn runs a business from Mr Corbyn's home. (not Yew Tree Manor in Shropshire, where he was brought up)

A business that imports Free Trade coffee , originating from the plantations in Mexico.

She sells the organic coffee for £10 per 250gram bag

Mexican coffee plantation workers earn less than the minimum wage.

'Satisfying most purchasers' is not the issue. Mr Corbyn's stance on fairness and trade unions , decent living wage and all of that....Is the issue. Why is he and his wife a part of such exploitation ?

Just for the record. Much the same in Mexico

https://www.organicconsumers.org/old_articles/starbucks/coffeelabor.htm


What are the labor problems and working conditions in the coffee industry?

A: Conditions for coffee workers on large plantations varies widely, but most are paid the equivalent to sweatshop wages and toil under abysmal working conditions. In Guatemala for example, coffee pickers have to pick a 100-pound quota in order to get the minimum wage of less than $3/day. A recent study of plantations in Guatemala showed that over half of all coffee pickers don't receive the minimum wage, in violation of Guatemalan labor laws. Workers interviewed in the study were also subject to forced overtime without compensation, and most often did not receive their legally-mandated employee benefits.


http://graphics.latimes.com/product-of-mexico-children/

In Mexico's fields, children toil to harvest crops that make it to American tables

I meant fair trade, not free trade

The coffee she buys is certified as fair trade compliant. What is she supposed to do, go out there and pick the beans herself to make sure nobody is exploited.

The problem is with the Fair Trade Foundation, not Laura Álvarez.

Any coffee in your cupboard granny? - I haven't drunk any for over thirty years and there is none in my cupboard.

....and how many built an empire on the back of the slave trade ??? Then we wonder why the drug trafficking is so great in South American countries. They have to make a living.
I'm quite sure our trade with the Americas could do well, we'll even have the Panamax vessels coming to Liverpool.

Mr and Mrs Corbyn should be well aware of the problems, without having to visit the plantations.

How? She has chosen a Fair Trade supplier which certifies that these problems don't exist. In fact the problems may not exist in this instance, Cafe Mam is a large well established company (since 1989) without any previous controversy as far as I can see.

Do you thoroughly check all the items you purchase ... glass houses etc.

Agreed,Café Mam is one of the few relatively successful stories ,considering what the people of Chiapas were facing, however, the workers continue to be paid a pittance in comparison.
My coffee comes from Kenya, which is another country we could build more trade with.

I have never professed to be a human rights activists, unlike Mr and Mrs C.

Is she or is she not running a business from there house. Are they paying business rates.

That's what I wondered, Jimbob.

Did anyone see Boris, speaking tonight from Manchester ?

So why are you banging on about human rights?

You can ask Mr C yourself in West Kirby on Saturday

Now, now don't get your knickers in a twist.

Does dd wear knickers?

Thats what i was wondering Snoeshoes.
Does granny know something that we don"t????

I sold them to her, she should know.

No you didn't. You should take more coffee with it !

It was Casper who was after your frillies, I got the wig.

Here is a Boris Johnson interview. He does explain a fair bit more that we have so far been allowed to understand. I did find his brief remark about the CIA getting the EU established, rather a surprise. He really is worth listening to, much more informative than others as he was in Manchester last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36057947



With regard to the democratic voice, we also have to consider Germany's take and how our freedom of speech could change in the future.
Turkey's President, calling the tune already (he's not a democrat). This case is about a comedian who wrote a (rude)poem about the Turkish President who then filed a complaint. Up to 3 years in jail !
Whether it's repealed or not, Turkey is going to cause problems in many areas, because we are different cultures, ...Same thing yet again !


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36055488

Paragraph 103 of Germany's penal code, on defamation of organs and representatives of foreign states, has the following to say:

(1) Whosoever insults a foreign head of state, or, with respect to his position, a member of a foreign government who is in Germany in his official capacity, or a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the Federal territory shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult to imprisonment from three months to five years.

The article dates back to the penal code drafted when the German Empire was formed in 1871, although at that time it just applied to monarchs.

Was talking to someone over a pint yesterday and he said he was voting to stay in for the sake of his grandkids. My opinion is that it will be not in the grandkids interests to stay in because it's them who won't be able to get jobs, houses or anything else because there will be lots of European competition here. I'd like to be wrong but........

Its between a rock and a hard place, do you want your grand kids to be ruled by the idiots in Europe or the idiots in UK Government?

I take the line that we have a bit more control over our Government than Europe. We can vote, we can protest and if absolutely necessary we can riot (in a social manner), the later two would have virtually no effect on Europe's decision making process.

True DD. I agree that we have more of a chance in having control if a government that we elect does not have to abide to rules and laws that come from an unelected gang in the EU

If anyone saw Boris's speech in Manchester, they will remember he raised the topic of the West Coast rail . It has come to attention that EU have decreed that the West Coast line will have more freight trains, less passenger. The relative minister, argued the case saying it didn't need them , he was told (in Boris's words ) to jump in the lake. So the same minister went to the highest place in the EU, and was again told...to jump in the lake.

Reading about the freight trains...guess who owns the rail freight ?

Deutsche Bahn purchased EWS for £309 million[13] on 13 November 2007.[14] On 1 January 2009, EWS was rebranded as DB Schenker along with Deutsche Bahn's Railion and DB Schenker divisions.In March 2016 DB Schenker was rebranded as DB Cargo[15] throughout Europe. [

Were we told about this ? Nein !!

A bit more here
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-schenker-rail-rebrands-as-db-cargo.html

And who sold it off? Conservative PLC, we can all cherry pick things for and against granny.

Typical response from someone who can't see the wood for the trees. Nothing to do with cherry picking, everything to do with UK loss of ownership to Germany, and as it happens 2007 and 2009 didn't seem to have the Conservatives anywhere near the board room or No. 10

Most Governments we have had since 1967 have been asset stripping.

Jaguar
British Telecommunications
Cable & Wireless
British Aerospace
Britoil
British Gas
British Steel
British Petroleum
Rolls Royce
British Airways
Water
British Coal
Powergen
National Power
British Rail
Tote
British Steel Corporation
British Leyland
Shipbuilding
British Transport Docks Board
British Telecom
Amersham International
Associated British Ports
Enterprise Oil

Labour disguised their privatisation as PFI contracts.

Didn't take much interest in politics during these years, but this is SO interesting, if you have 1hr 30 mins., it's well worth watching. All I remember apart from who the Prime Minister was and leader of the opposition at the time, was my father throwing the newspaper at Heath on the TV and shouting 'traitor' ,traitor'.

This is better than TV viewing at the moment and records the initial moves to joining the Common Market.

[youtube]jYNcLJWylWU[/youtube]

Love this quote:


Sir Winston Churchill once said. “We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea

Wasn't it William Hague who said "We will be part of Europe but will not be ruled by Europe" when he was leader. Despite becoming a total Euro-sceptic after that, he is now saying to stay in.

Oop's just bumped into a tree, I was speaking generally granny re cherry picking, there are arguments for staying and the same for leaving, one can be countered by the other, from my point of view the brexit's have not told us much, they just keep saying lets jump in and see if we can swim, so a bit of a gamble,if we leave and its a disaster those that are pushing for exit wont feel the same burden of the rest of us as they are well protected( rats and sinking ships)anyway I digress, I believe a certain Tory minister has heard about spankings on Wirral so might seek membership.

I hate how we shorten words in the uk like i.d.s or brexit or ridic or zio which is a person/zionist/ a stance on euro or the word ridiculous etc etc
What id like is people who come who are criminals who commit worse ones in the uk & use law after havin a kid here walk free or do little time for murder etc facilitated by euro human rights.
The black hole of £ that goes into europe stopped.billions.

The fact that were funding a failing system that we didnt join rightly years ago....the euro.

Going on what I've heard Jeremy Corbins reason for staying in the EU was mainly to protect workers rights, but what do we know could happen to them if the secretive negotiations on TTIP go through.Would like them to be fully transparent before the referendum.
Who are our representatives negotiating and why is it all in secret.
Can we trust some of those negotiating for our best interests not to do some deal that is not for us and later on find they have been rewarded with lucrative positions in the other camp.
eg such as some of our politicians and civil servants
Scores of ministers and officials are cashing in on their time in office by picking up lucrative jobs in the private sector.

click

Ive been looking at david noakes site eutruth dot org uk
I watched him on yt
His 50 reasons to leave list is v relevant
Theres 120k regs that control us in the eu.
Quangos ,dodgy ones like common purpose & bilderberg meetings.
The fact that the queen with blair repealed the treason act in 98 to cover signing the uk 6 treaties over to the eu in 72.
Against her coronation oaths.
As i always say . Everythings corrupt
50 innocent shot dead and 1100 have died in police hands
Very interesting info
Have a look.....

The experts that were so furiously condemned by the leave campaigners were right. The country is in economic chaos and it's likely to get a lot worse. The EU appears uninclined to treat us generously, Westminster is in obvious meltdown, the country is split along age lines and geographical ones, Scotland is going to leave the UK and probably part of Northern Ireland will go too (or the 'troubles' will kick off again. Take your choice)

As a country we appear incapable of even starting the process of leaving. The promises about immigration are already being watered down, companies are stopping recruiting until they see which way things go, and increasingly there is a groundswell of people who feel they were misled by the leave campaign's lies and distortions and regret what they've done.

The financial services sector is already moving staff out of the city of London to places like Paris and Frankfurt, and this is the beginning of the end for the city of London as the EU's financial centre. This will damage our trade balance which is already negative, despite being shored up by the financial services business (As a country, we import every year more than we export, to the tune of several thousand pounds per Briton)

It appears we lack expertise in negotiators over trade deals (it's all been done by the EU on our behalf up to no) and are ill equipped to renegotiate trade deals with ANY countries, let alone the EU, so the future looks very bleak indeed.

There is little doubt that the EU will survive this, and go on to grow and prosper. It would appear that the UK is more likely to collapse like a pack of cards.

In ten or twenty years, things may improve somewhat, but in the immediate future, make no mistake. We are ALL going to have a very, very bad time of it!

And that is where our Country has gone wrong, fixing this should have been the number one priority for many years. Europe has pushed/forced us into doing the opposite of what we need in order to weaken us. Europe limits our trading not enhances it.

Please quote your source for this statement. The HSBC have stated that they MIGHT relocate staff to Paris. No other financial institution has said anything as far as I have heard.

I will simply let events prove I'm right.

Meanwhile:

https://next.ft.com/content/a3a92744-3a52-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/inves...rted-moving-staff-out-of-london-5965060/
http://news.sky.com/story/1718028/londons-future-as-financial-centre-in-question

You can't expect them not to move out. Staying outside the EU would be a ridiculous thing for them to do.

So, your statement that the financial services sector is ALREADY moving staff out of London was not true. Please stop trying to scare people.

There are a few interesting points never mentioned by the leave people. One is what happens to our Nuclear base in Scotland when Scotland leaves the UK? I hope it doesn't get moved to the Mersey, but the chances are that the financially crippled UK will no longer be able to afford to run it wherever it is.

The other bright spots are the fact that Mr Farage will be unemployed and UKIP will wither away, its only aim having been achieved.

I expect turkey to join the EU now, and quite quickly. and the UK trading freely with the EU will almost certainly involve acceptance of free travel with them. This will probably not involve many however. Given the immediate future i can't see many wanting to visit the place.

One other interesting point rarely if ever brought up by the leave camp is our birthrate. At the moment, we are nowhere near sustaining our population with a rate of 1.85 children per woman. In the EU it is even lower and the average is about 1.58. Germany is one of the lowest, which is why I suspect Mrs Merkel was so happy to see an influx of new Germans. In a few decades, we shall be scrambling to attract people here rather than keeping them out. There is little experience of managing a declining population. I will have a disastrous effect on the economy and dealing with it not a skill we possess, nor is there any economic theory as to how best do it.

We are experiencing a catastrophe in slow motion, but it IS a catastrophe.

Scotland would take decades to develop its own security, it would probably be a simple exchange that we offer security services in exchange for the use of bases in Scotland.

England would be nowhere near as financially crippled as Scotland.



Farage has mentioned this himself many times, there are very few politicians who can say they have 100% succeeded at their primary goal, he would become a Lord.



This is assuming that the EU still exists and that the other countries accept them. There is going to be a massive fight for EU money/grants will the EU want to take on another money pit?



Highly unlikely that we will sign up to the free movement of people, as I have stated a number of times the IOM has free trade without freedom of movement of people - there is a precedent. More than likely if the EU exists we will sign of to a near-free-trade agreement with minor tariffs here and there to appease certain people.



A major problem for many parts of the developed world, it applies to remain or leave, with the Muslim birthrate being substantially higher we will become a Muslim country/continent if our birthrate doesn't rise, there is another option to downsize, we do not have to keep on growing, we have automation and equipment that reduces the need for people while increasing production.



There are no shortage of people in this world that live in relative poverty and want their children to live in less poverty. Immigrants will always be available in the next few centuries.

It is about time that we stop the master/slave situation in this world, while there will always be a need to work, there is absolutely no reason that our lives need to be dominated by work. Most people are a slave to their lives, they are either working or bringing up children for the future, we have very little freedom. Because this has not been resolved the birthrate is dropping - it should be the working hours that are dropping.

HSBC said a couple of months back that they would not be moving out of London. So relocating some staff to Paris is probably in accordance with how they move people around anyway.

I don't think its a case so much of what we want, more like a case of, what we will be given, they are going to screw us to the floor, no doubt they have an eye on our economy, it will be like any business deal, get as much as you can for the least you can do.

Well theres about 7000 jobs dependent on that sub base, and plans to increase /improve infrastructure to the tune of £500m are supposed to be starting in 2017 so the Scots would actually lose out a lot if they dont come to some agreement such as you suggested . The reason the subs are situated where they are in their underground sea bunkers, is that its the only place in the British Isles that has deep enough water to enable them to sneak in unseen - the idea being that our enemies are supposed not to know where the active ones are at any given time . (Id be surprised if they didnt know exactly where they are though) . There is always one out of commission being repaired somewhere on the Lake District coast. So - if Scotland did become independent from us I suppose they could use the fact theres no-where else , as a bargaining tool. Mind you , as said, the Scotties need protecting , so hopefully that benefit would outweigh any other advantage they think they have over us in respect of that base.

I did half hear something being discussed about the possibility of the Govt just 'claiming' the promontory where the subs are in Fastlane , but Im not quite sure what was meant/how that could work

Its not much of a secret when the subs arrive or leave Faslane any longer, they don't even bother to try and hide, they go "missing" some distance away.

There is bound to be a back-up base, possibly shared with the USA.

Trident is owned and maintained by the USA, we lease it and only provide our own war heads.

Scotland has already said it would expect England to clear out of Holy Loch, DD. It was said at the time of their Scexit attempt.

The House of Lords is full of crooks. Farage would fit in nicely, except for his inability to stop shouting.

The future of the EU is a lot brighter than that of the UK. It is ludicrous in the extreme to believe it will not survive brexit. It will, but in order to send a clear message to any waverers who may want to do the same, they will not make leaving easy for us. In particular, free market trading will NOT be allowed without free movement. They have already made this clear, and our leave supporters are already backpeddling like crazy on promises to limit immigration made during the campaign.

As to birthrate, you have to look a long way ahead to work out the effect of birthrates now.I reckon we have a birth shortfall of around 250,000 babies a year - a figure curiously close to the level of immigration we've seen. One might even suspect someone in the government has done some demographic modelling and allowed that number in deliberately whilst promising to limit them.

I see Plaid Cymru is now talking about Wales leaving the sinking ship too, just like Scotland, and London is fiercely supportive of remaining in the EU. I wouldn't be surprised to see it too wanting to leave and Join the EU as a nation state. Its a lot bigger than Monaco, for instance, which although it is not formally a member of the Euro is a de-facto member in most obvious ways. It is allowed to print its own Euros for instance.

I hope you think this break-up of the UK, the government chaos, the downward spiral of the pound and shares is worth it, but I most certainly don't.

Not at all, a few members states of EU are doing well, a large number of others are doing very badly and the EU has made it quite clear that they cannot pull them out the ditch.

There are very few countries in the World that are doing badly except those at war, the amount of countries in the EU that are doing badly is disproportionately large.

Greece has suffered deflation for 39 months on the run and they are about to be hit with yet more conditions that limit their growth and employment rate.

Spain is in its 10th month of deflation.

Bulgaria is in its 8th month of deflation.

Croatia is in its 24th month (or more) of deflation.

Cyprus has over 24 months of deflation.

Italy is in its 4th month of deflation.

The EU is in its 4th month of deflation.

France is in its 4th month of deflation.

Portugal will probably go into deflation.

The Czech Republic is probably just about to go into deflation.

Germany is wavering around in and out of deflation.

Austria is just keeping out of deflation.

If you want I will look up the rest but there is no need as I'm sure you get the gist. There are a few doing well, but not many at all (eg UK, Belgium etc)