wirral forums

More threats to Wirral's Green Belt

Posted By: Greenwood

More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 12:55pm

Front page of Wirral Globe this week - and also on their website - is a map showing many areas in which an interest has been shown by developers. On Facebook I've seen a list of areas and prospective numbers of houses, too. As you might expect, a lot of them are on Green Belt - I mean, what developer doesn't like a nice green field on which to build? Hmph. If all the properties planned for Wirral Waters (will that ever happen?) were actually built, the Green Belt wouldn't need to be threatened. Check, in case a green space near you is under threat.

Attached picture greenbelt threat numbers.jpg
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 1:51pm

How come as I travel around the Wirral I see loads of derelict brownfield sites that aren't being built on?

I also do not understand why we have development area plans, its a crazy situation when small supermarkets can't get planning permission to build on a site because its not the "correct usage" or a go-kart business can't use an industrial site, it creates an unnecessary inflexibility.

It seems to have taken a long time to realise that it pays to have housing close to industrial and business areas, something that was common at one time (look at Unilever).

Everything has to go through planning permission, why have pre-conceived blocks that may not be relevant?

Greenbelt is a difficult decision, if the population grows and we have better standard of living with lower housing density, we need to use more land. Every house was built on land that was greenbelt at one time or another.

The biggest crime is developers and investors sitting on unused land.
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 6:04pm

'Land banking' is indeed way out of order and I think there was talk some time ago of putting more pressure on owners to 'use it or lose it'.

The latest thing is looking at 'soft targets' I think - greenfieild sites near other areas of population, so less infrastructure will be needed. Sure, eeverything was at one stage built on greenfield sites, but people are now realising that once it's gone it's gone and a certain quality of life goes with it. Higher density housing might be needed more than low density, to deal with the higher number of single person households and people needing affordable homes.

Higher density with usable, safe, quality greenspace for all, rather than big gardens for a few, might be the way forward. Green belt release should be an absolute last resort. All brownfield options should be exhausted first.
Posted By: assassin

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 6:47pm

I was driving passed the penny Bridge by the tip and looking at all the wasteland there they could use for housing and it would stop the gypsies from going here every year, just me thinking out loud.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 10:09pm

Originally Posted by assassin
I was driving passed the penny Bridge by the tip and looking at all the wasteland there they could use for housing and it would stop the gypsies from going here every year, just me thinking out loud.


That land is already allocated for the Wirral's Trafford Centre - but don't hold your breath.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 10:43pm



I saw some details about this.

Firstly why should so much land be needed for the Government target of 2020.. 3,500 houses ? Not 12,000 houses as indicated.

Secondly , who has actually drawn this detailed plan of the jeopardised 'green belt' areas, and how have they come to this conclusion ?.

Thirdly, surely we elect our councillors to do the best for each area. If they can't do so that, then they shouldn't be in office. Don't call on the public to do your work and hold protests every time etc. I for one have had enough of being dragged into those sort of things. Let them get on with it, take away the very ethos of Wirral and watch the Peninsula change for the worse. It won't be the 'Leisure Peninsula' for much longer . Congestion and fumes ...

Yes, with regard to Wirral Waters and Peel's Centre.. supposed to be plenty of accommodation in the pipeline for that.

I hope that with all these new houses that WMB appear to be set upon will also result in better facilities, nurseries, schools, road improvements and crossings, traffic lights and speed bumps.. because it will all be needed if encroaching on the less populated areas.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Jul 2018 10:56pm

Just looked at the list Greenwood posted. Might as well say goodbye to most of the wildlife to. All the areas by me where wildlife struggles and needs a helping hand.

I'm disgusted , totally disgusted that these people don't even know and don't care what goes on .

Limbo Lane, 522 houses ? That's a whole new estate for goodness sake ! They'll need another Health Centre as well and school and a whole new road system as congestion at either end Irby/Greasby/Thingwall is bad in peak times as it is. . and traffic running up from the lights at Arrowe Park is a nightmare at times. A constant flow that never stops further down due to lights changing at Arrowe park for the next feed of traffic going down to Pensy/Heswall/ Thingwall.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 13th Jul 2018 12:27am

The target Wirral has to meet is 800 homes per year for the next 15 years, it only has to identify sites for this requirement, it doesn't mean they will be built so basically they have to identify sites for 12,000 homes now. (There are also targets for the number of houses built)

12,000 sounds horrendous but Wirral Waters is planning 15,000 in the long run. Currently the existing number of homes is around 140,000

As Wirral natives generally have a reducing population it would indicate that this housing is not for the Wirral native population.

Replying to @greenwood, I'm not sure about the concept of producing high density housing without gardens and open spaces in preference to having large greenfield areas. The country has been down the concrete jungle route before and it failed miserably with very expensive developments being knocked down long before their expected lifetime not to mention the amount of misery and suffering they caused.

Successive Governments have destroyed the basic concept of family units which has greatly affected native population growth and the average number of people per household.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 13th Jul 2018 9:05am



This councillor must have the wrong end of the stick then :

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...es-of-wirrals-protected-land-to-be-sold/

Councillor Phillip Brightmore, cabinet member for leisure and ward member for Pensby and Thingwall, said: "Residents will be rightly outraged at these proposals.

"The Government knows its targets can't be met on brownfield sites alone, so is pushing for Green Belt to be released to developers.

"But these proposals will fundamentally change the nature of our community by targeting fields off Pensby Road and removing the cherished green space between Thingwall and Irby.
"In effect, they merge these two historic towns.

"That can't be right. I will be meeting with residents to make sure their voice is heard."
Posted By: assassin

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 13th Jul 2018 1:57pm

I know I live off the Dock Road and we had about 7 different plans from peel holdings say it going to take over Tate's and build everything from a new shopping center to a shanghai flats to yachting Lake but f all has been done only the gas holders have gone
Posted By: venice

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 23rd Jul 2018 6:57am

For what it's worth.

https://www.change.org/p/councillor...pment-in-west-wirral-save-our-green-belt

Wonder when an area is considered 'full' ? Do we wait till every Wirralian lives in a concrete jungle with just a few trees and a field to share here and there ? Nice.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 23rd Jul 2018 8:37am

Originally Posted by venice
For what it's worth.

https://www.change.org/p/councillor...pment-in-west-wirral-save-our-green-belt

Wonder when an area is considered 'full' ? Do we wait till every Wirralian lives in a concrete jungle with just a few trees and a field to share here and there ? Nice.



Very good point. Our Labour Council seem to have got caught up in the moment !

When do we consider a luxury golf course development includes a 90 bed - hotel, conference facilities and spa, 2 golf courses and clubhouses, a links academy, large car park, a new link road, maintenance buildings and, so far, 160 luxury houses and 40 luxury apartments (all Band H). ..........................is a more important use of land than affordable homes for those in need ?
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Jul 2018 12:38pm

Consultation now open - scroll down the linked article for opportunities to make your feelings known in advance of the technical consultation in September.
www.wirral.gov.uk/localplan
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 1:03pm

Originally Posted by Greenwood
Consultation now open - scroll down the linked article for opportunities to make your feelings known in advance of the technical consultation in September.
www.wirral.gov.uk/localplan



As we are coming under Liverpool City Region.. is this now the way we have to go with regard to everything. Liverpool dictate ? (maybe to alleviate Liverpool housing problem)
I would like to know who the Consultations have been made with. Which Companies are involved, which Councilors have already approved these plans, who and how many have identified the locations and where they actually live in relation to Wirrals' Green Belt Land.

In addition Harrock Wood, Irby, is in the mix.. That belongs to the National Trust (or it did)

https://assets.publishing.service.g...5/Liverpool_devolution_deal_unsigned.pdf

HOUSING AND PLANNING
22. The Liverpool City Region Mayor will exercise strategic planning powers to help
accelerate economic growth and new housing development throughout the City
Region. This will include:
a. Development of a Single Statutory City Region Framework supporting the
delivery of strategic employment and housing sites throughout the City
Region. Such a Framework would require approval by a unanimous vote of
members appointed to the Combined Authority by the constituent councils.
This approach must not delay the development of local plans - Local
Authorities within the City Region commit to delivering local plans by early
2017, pooling resources across the city region as necessary to do so. These
will support development of the single City Region Framework.
b. The power to be consulted on and/or call-in planning applications of
strategic importance to the City Region, subject to the consent of the relevant
Combined Authority Member for the individual authority area.
c. As a step towards a Statutory Framework, the City Region will commit to the
identification of key economic sites for Housing and for Employment, at the
City Region level, by 2017 to support a Mayoral Development Corporation
approach. The City Region will also create a brownfield register to support
this work. This will support the delivery of new housing and employment
growth ahead of any Statutory Plan being produced.
d. The creation of a Mayoral Development Corporation, which will support the
delivery of key sites through Mayoral Development Zones in the Liverpool City
Region. This will include the ability to undertake Compulsory Purchase
Orders to aid scheme delivery. These powers will be exercised with the
consent of the Authority in which the powers are being used.
e. The government and the City Region will develop a Land Commission
(including a Joint Assets Board for economic assets formerly held by the
Regional Development Agency, with the Joint Asset Board’s terms of
reference being jointly agreed, as far as consistent with government priorities
on public sector land and receipts targets) to support the better coordination
and release of public asset disposals. This will include representation from
senior government officials from relevant Departments and NonDepartmental

Public Bodies. The joint approach will aim to increase the
availability of sites for economic growth, housing, and improved
communities.
10
f. Liverpool City Region and the government will continue to discuss the
devolution of housing loan funds and the city regions future housing
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 1:16pm

GREEN BELT SITES

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/planning-...-plan-wirral-2018/local-plan-sites/green

...and considering some of these Green Belt Sites are in more upmarket locations, are these houses going to be for the 'detached 4 bedroom, double garage and large garden , brigade' or for those who really need the homes ?

I see the open land around Caldy is not being targeted !
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 1:34pm



Oh my !... yes it is (some) Column Road.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 2:40pm


https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hundreds-homes-built-wirral-despite-14933471
Lead petitioner Jo Bird said the developer Morris Homes had "ignored" the petitioners' concerns over issues such as congestion, pollution and safety.

Morris Homes... not exactly cheap !

https://www.morrishomes.co.uk/new-homes-merseyside
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 2:52pm


Reviews on Morris Homes. : NOT GOOD !


https://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews186193.html#Reviews
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 30th Jul 2018 5:50pm

Meeting tommorrow (Tuesday night) at St Michaels and All Angels in Pensby 6pm about the green belt. Think its been arranged by a Labour Councillor as a Tory bashing rather than by Wirral Council . Hope to be there.



ALSO the Official Council roadshow at various venues around the borough
free tickets booked on line
https://www.wirral.gov.uk/planning-...local-plan-wirral-2018/wirral-local-plan
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 31st Jul 2018 7:38am


I will try to get there, if I remember.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Aug 2018 2:33pm


Who can answer this ?

Average number of pupils in a Primary School in Wirral

Average number of pupils in a Secondary School in Wirral.

Average number of children in 12,000 houses 2/3/4/ bed properties

How many more school places are likely to be needed for the children of 12,000 homes.

How many more schools would have to be built.
How many more teachers
How many more police
How many more fire and rescue
How many more health centres,
How many more doctors
How many more roads to be cleaned
How many more buses
How many more traffic lights
12,000 more bins to be emptied.

How much more council tax will we all have to pay ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Aug 2018 4:55pm

The more people there are, the less council tax you need to pay because the extra people also pay council tax and fixed overheads become a lesser proportion of costs.

Quite a few of the remaining questions I can probably obtain or estimate, the others I can give a justified guess, not now, maybe later.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Aug 2018 5:32pm


OK Thanks..

I might be getting confused (as we do) but this is the Government Announcement published in February 2017. Unless it's been altered I see no mention of having to use green belt land, in fact quite the opposite.

Best to read it all, although the view of Wirral Council that all homes to reach the projected figure have to be 'new build' seems to be flying in the face of this plan.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...us-plan-to-build-the-homes-britain-needs

Green belt

Ministers have reaffirmed this government’s commitment to the green belt – that only in exceptional circumstances may councils alter green belt boundaries after consulting local people and submitting the revised Local Plan for examination, and set out for the first time all the actions local authorities must take before considering the green belt.

The plan for ‘Urban Regeneration’ includes: strengthening national planning policy to create a ‘de facto’ presumption in favour of housing on suitable brownfield land and to drive up density levels in high demand areas while ensuring that developments are well-designed and respect the character of the local area.

Also taking action to radically increase brownfield development and to bring life back to abandoned sites. That means high quality housing for families in town centres, breathing new life back into our high streets, turning abandoned shopping centres into new communities and increasing density of housing around transport hubs to build homes that people want to live in.

Empty homes

We will also continue to support local authorities to encourage efficient use of our existing stock, making best use of homes that are long-term empty.

Local authorities have powers and incentives to tackle empty homes. Through the New Homes Bonus they earn the same financial reward for bringing an empty home back into use as building a new one. They also have flexibility to impose a Council Tax premium of up to 50% (on top of the Council Tax bill), on properties that have been empty and substantially unfurnished for more than 2 years.

Great progress has been made in recent years and the number of empty homes stands at its lowest since records began. At May 2010 over 300,000 homes in England had been standing empty for longer than 6 months. As of October 2015 the number of long-term empty properties had fallen to 203,596.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Aug 2018 6:04pm

The Government set the target of 12,000 homes in 15 years. brownfield supplies say a third of that, where else can the Council allocate except greenbelt or we go back to the days of Oak and Eldon tower-blocks except taller.

Its classic ploy of this Government, they hold the cards, set the rules and organise it in such a way that the Council gets the blame and the problems.

Saying that, I think the Council have tried to reverse the blame by producing an extreme plan that they know the public will object to and they can go back to the Government and say that 90% of their constituents have objected.

Either-ways, its still the Government that are forcing some Councils to sacrifice greenbelt in an underhand manner.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Aug 2018 10:26pm

I am assuming Ellesmere Port and Neston Council will be facing the same then. Suggested 500 houses on Green Belt in Willaston. Don't know about any others.

They won't have any proof of 90% objections unless they have, (heaven forbid) a referendum !

Compulsory purchase of land for use of in the next 10-15 yrs is wrong. Surely that would be supposing that no other brown field sites would be available in the meantime. Once the land has gone, it's gone for ever . If they need Green Belt now, let them wait until the rest is needed before compulsory purchase of the whole lot.
12,000 homes is a ridiculous number anyway, and starting at £199,000 for a 1 bed house, as indicated in Morris Homes brochures, the people who need them will not be able to afford any of them. If Morris Homes are the developers, most of their homes it would seem from other areas are also 'leasehold', so that's another few hundred pounds every year for ground rent.
If Wirral Council know all this, which they should do by now, they are leading us up the garden path, same as the Hoylake Golf Resort with all the luxury properties and hotel on Green Belt, which the councillors obviously voted for.
I don't know who the developers are for Hoylake Golf Resort, but I do know that Mr Trump was looking at Hoylake a number of years ago, although he may have changed his mind.

According to 'Defend Wirral's Green Spaces' they have calculated that there is room for 18,000 houses on brown field sites.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Aug 2018 5:34am

....and the council website page that I linked on page one, no longer exists.. How strange !

So if you want to see the list that was clearly visible a few days ago, here it is : Reproduced by an 'action group'
(although it hasn't got West Kirby on so there may be others missing)

Here is a petition to sign .

https://www.change.org/p/councillor...development-brownfield-first?signed=true






Attached picture WIN_20180802_062357.JPG
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Aug 2018 7:17pm

the numbers on that petition are clicking up nicely as you watch it..
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 3rd Aug 2018 3:23pm

Originally Posted by fish5133
the numbers on that petition are clicking up nicely as you watch it..


That is partly a trick by change.org,I signed an old petition the other day that looked like it was rising, after a while, it stops, 8 hours later it was still at the same figure. They "count" it up to the current figure and make it look dynamic with votes coming in when there aren't any.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 3rd Aug 2018 11:47pm

your right Granny. The rate it was going it should be well over the 2500
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 9:48am

I am so cross ! Some 'numb skull ' has been knocking on doors in the Prenton area, obviously on behalf of the Labour Council or Labour Party, giving this prospective threat of compulsory purchase of Green Belt Land, as :

'A Tory Land Grab '..

That is very wrong, fabrication, and lies. If this person was told to say such things, that shows up the Council or the local Labour party for what they truly are, or if this person was given free reign to say exactly what he wanted ,then that's false information and corruption of the truth. He could end up in serious trouble .


People should not make up a scenario to suit their own inability to understand the full facts. The Labour council have put forward the idea of claiming so much Green Belt Land, when they don't need to, but that will appease any deal done with the Developers wishes for green and pleasant places.

Here is the quote again from Government..


Green belt

Ministers have reaffirmed this government’s commitment to the green belt – that only in exceptional circumstances may councils alter green belt boundaries after consulting local people and submitting the revised Local Plan for examination, and set out for the first time all the actions local authorities must take before considering the green belt.

The plan for ‘Urban Regeneration’ includes: strengthening national planning policy to create a ‘de facto’ presumption in favour of housing on suitable brownfield land and to drive up density levels in high demand areas while ensuring that developments are well-designed and respect the character of the local area.

Note : We the residents aka local people, have not been consulted prior to the plans being set out.

.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 10:14am

But it is a Tory land grab???

The Tory Government has given the council no option but to include greenbelt in their local development plan.

The consultation is starting in a few days time, you can scream and shout at the council as much as you want they still will not be able to remove greenbelt from their local development plan without breaking Government rules.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 10:58am


There are properties to be renovated , 3000 empty houses on Wirral, there is space for 18,000 houses on Brown Field sites on Wirral.

Not producing a 'Local Plan' prevents council from exercising proper planning control. and leaves greenbelt unprotected.

Wirral Council have failed to produce a 'Local Plan' for more than a decade

Developers use the legal loophole 'viability assessments ' to their own advantage and allows them to build more profitable houses and executive properties. Not suitable for the majority of Wirral residents.

Why didn't Wirral Council produce a 'Local Plan' when requested ?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 11:09am

The Council had problems producing the Local Plan in accordance with the Government rules BECAUSE they realised the amount of greenbelt that would have to be included to meet the Tory targets.

The Government has set a target, the Council have to meet it. Many of the 3000 empty homes can't be included in the plan because there is no committent from the owners to bring them back into use. Just like there isn't any commitment from Wirral Waters for most of their proposed houses.

Labour gave Councils the power to force empty houses into use, the Tories changed the rules making it incredibly difficult for Councils to do that any longer.

Greenbelt protects land, as you have seen here, local plans forced by the Government put greenbelt at risk.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 11:11am


quote from Javid letter to Wirral.

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/javids-withering-letter-to-wirral-on-lack-of-local-plan/

On Friday, Javid wrote to Cllr Phil Davies, leader of Wirral Council, confirming that despite exceptional circumstances outlined by Wirral, plans for an intervention would continue.

“There has been a consistent failure to produce a Local Plan since the last Plan was adopted in 2000. The council has failed to meet milestones in published Local Development Schemes at least six times since 2004,” Javid said.

Wirral’s defence was that plan-making had been delayed by the abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies and withdrawal of Government funding, but highlighted progress in that the council was forming part of the Liverpool City Region’s Single Spatial Plan.


There are no exceptional circumstances to justify why your council has made such little progress over the years… there is no justification for the length of time your council is proposing to take on further evidence gathering.”

Javid confirmed the intervention process would continue, which will “involve a team of experts, led by the chief planner, providing me with advice on next steps”. Javid also said his officials would begin discussions with the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority with the option of inviting it to prepare a Local Plan for Wirral on its behalf.

Meanwhile, Javid backed down from intervening with Liverpool’s Local Plan process, due to progress made since he last contacted the council. However, his letter to Mayor Joe Anderson remained stern: “I will hold you to account for your Council’s actions. Your council needs to continue to your published timetable… Any further significant delays will cause me to have considerable doubt as to whether your council is doing everything that is necessary in connection with the preparation of its Local Plan.”

Wirral Council has been contacted for comment
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 11:35am

The Council had hoped to get commitment from Wirral Waters for their new homes, this would have alleviated much of the target (ie preserved much more, if not all the greenbelt). So the Council delayed and delayed but of course Wirral Waters/Peel is very good at making loads of noise but very little commitment.

The Council are between a rock and a hard place, Government targets vs constituents up in arms about greenbelt.

The Government are playing their usual games of getting the blame on anyone else apart from the Government, looks like they are passing the book from their intervention team to Liverpool City Region now as a continuation of telfon-shoulders.

The whole of the new homes thing is making a lot of rich people even richer. The affordable homes thing is a joke, almost every developer gets permission to ignore the target number of affordable homes because the Councils are under so much pressure to get as many homes built as possible.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 2:41pm


Liverpool and Wirral were the only councils in the North West to have been contacted !

Wirral's excuse as quoted in the above :


Wirral’s defence was that plan-making had been delayed by the abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies and withdrawal of Government funding, but highlighted progress in that the council was forming part of the Liverpool City Region’s Single Spatial Plan.


So when was Government funding withdrawn in relation to not producing plans ?

Regional Spatial Strategies as I understand, means combining the needs for the housing over the whole of , in this case, the Merseyside area.
Liverpool use Morris Homes as developers.
Developers can choose the most salubrious land to develop .
Morris homes like prestigious , affluent, towns and villages surrounded by beautiful countryside....
So who has chosen the huge swathes of Green Belt, Liverpool City Region or Wirral ?
Considering the numbers of properties allocated to each piece of Green Belt, who has already decided the individual numbers of 1/2/3/4/5/ bed houses. Someone must have , otherwise they couldn't have calculated the numbers of houses allocated for each Green Belt site.

We are being kept in the dark and a meeting this week it clearly indicated it was a meeting purely to attempt to appease as the councillor obviously didn't have or wouldn't part with any information , other than 'sign petitions' ,or write to the Minister for Housing. He couldn't even say who the developers are, but clearly one developer is in the frame for the allocated £millions .

This has to be pointing fingers at someone other than central Government.

So I am wondering if Liverpool have taken control of identifying our land, for the benefit of the developers. Developers whom they already have considerably deals with and it is in fact for the benefit of people from the whole of the Merseyside area and mostly Liverpool, and not for the people of Wirral.

Where are the jobs to go with these exclusive houses ? Not around here.

Let's not forget that this council also voted for using Green Belt for Hoylake Golf Resort which includes 160 Band H Executive houses.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 6:51pm

Regional Spacial Strategy works in parallel with the Local Plans, its like a hierarchical structure.

The quantity of houses is a simple formula dependent on area, they don't plan everything down to house level.

This is only a plan, its not a program, if loads of houses get built by a developer on brownfield land that they have been sitting on, it alleviates the requirement of the green belt land. Peel are sitting on loads of brownfield land without committing themselves and this is partly what is causing/creating the problem.

I'm not aware of any special relationship between Liverpool Council and Morris Homes, the allocated housing development partners are Redrow, Willmott Dixon and Liverpool Mutual Homes. There are loads of other developers building homes in/around Liverpool as well, especially student accommodation.

Where would you locate 12,000 homes on the Wirral? The Council would love to know if it can be done without green belt.

Jobs and houses are chicken and eggs, you do both, build houses and build industrial/business buildings and hope it balances out, if you haven't got one available, the other won't work. Likewise the investors that pay for developments won't invest unless their is a strategy for both and businesses won't locate either.

There is always the back-up plan of knocking houses down in crime riddled areas, the politicians in this world are still naive enough to believe you put people in nice new buildings and they are instantly cured of being thugs, druggies etc.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 9:23pm

Morris Homes High Spec New Homes. Head Office based in Liverpool.
Building:
Blundellsands, Allerton, Garston, St Helen's. Acre Lane Wirral (approved), Upton Dene Chester, atm, more further afield like Widnes
Acre Lane:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hundreds-homes-built-wirral-despite-14933471

Redrow have probably used up all their allotted space. Redrow walked hand in hand with Joe.. but he has been told to fire Redrow and they only seem to build luxury housing in prime locations .

https://confidentials.com/liverpool/mayor-joe-told-fire-redrow-and-follow-your-leader

Anyway, obviously all things considered, it appears that you are in favour of the developments, unless you just argue for the sake of it. (?)
I am surprised as it will no doubt be destructive in many different ways to the history of the area. If these plots are needed for houses, how much more will be needed for schools etc, roads, and all the infrastructure. They could get just as many smaller, non executive houses, on fewer plots but once more the ordinary man will not be able to afford anything.

They could in fact flatten most of Birkenhead and start again. It would do everyone a favour and improve the surroundings for those who have to live amongst the tat .

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 10:10pm

Originally Posted by granny
it appears that you are in favour of the developments


Not once have I have not indicated my favour one way or the other. I'm merely pointing out that the Government has forced local councils to allocate green belt land to new build, even though you don't appear to like that fact.

If Birkenhead was flattened and rebuilt there would be an even greater need to build on green belt as the housing density would be reduced. You would also be knocking down around three hundred listed buildings but I guess they are just tat..
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Aug 2018 10:45pm


If Birkenhead was made into a nice place for people to be, then it has to be better. Even if there were fewer houses.

I see there are plans for the two council building North and South Annexe.. now they are tat !

I still don't consider the Government to be the sole responsibility for this , council should have been awake and done what was requested of them, 10 yrs ago and also there should also be clauses incorporated into developers like Peel , having a limited time to complete their promises, After that time has elapsed reclaim the land, just as is happening with compulsory purchase of Green Belt. No one should be purchasing land that will not be used for the next 10 or 15 yrs. That is wrong.!

Now I'm going to sleep.. Nighty night.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Aug 2018 6:05pm

Peel haven't made any promises so they can't be given a time expiration date.

The Tory Government have effectively stopped Councils from taking over unused property.

The 12,000 homes in 15 years target wasn't around 10 years ago. That target is purely of the Governments making and what is driving Councils to have to re-allocate green belt, the Councils have no real say in the matter, they have to obey or get over-ruled. It doesn't matter what the Council does (awake or asleep), the green belt will be re-allocated.

My life in Birkenhead has been much better than when I lived in Heswall, I was pleased to move back.
Posted By: Littlebear

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Aug 2018 8:20pm

There’s loads of space in Caldy, neston, heswall, etc. Stick up some 25 storey flats. Or do people only want four bedroom houses? It sounds daft taking up so much space because people don’t like living in proximity of one another.
Where else are they supposed to build, in space/under the sea?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Aug 2018 9:11pm

Neston isn’t in Wirral it’s in West Cheshire, Heswall and Caldy have a lot of green belt surrounding them as well as protected areas.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 7:39am

Hello, I've read the thread and think there are a few misconceptions about were the demand has come from.

Firstly WBC conducted (or Outsourced to a company in Manchester) the SHLAA which has created the 'demand' As ludicrous as the numbers are this is what has driven the 800 houses per year. The question we must put to WBC is why they ever accepted the findings of the SHLAA and allowed it to be put to government for approval. The leader of WBC has himself admitted the number are ridiculous for a peninsula such as ours.

Who Allowed a company with no knowledge of Wirral to conduct such an important study
Who in WBC checked the numbers
Who In WBC approved there use
Why did WBC not stop the use of the SHLAA which has massively inflated figures.

If you read the SHLAA it speaks about 7000+ extra jobs on the WIrral (from where you may ask?)

The fact is WBC put to the government a SHLAA that use false is grossly incorrect information. The government then accepted this flawed report to assist in its national house building tragets.

What we are seeing today is the culmination of gross mismanagement and incompetence on a scale that should in any other line of business lead to Gross Misconduct and the removal of a failed Council Leadership.

What we must ensure in the interim is NONE of our precious greenbelt scarified because of their failures. What happens in 15 years if they are allowed to do this. Eventually there will none left!

We must get to the root cause of this catastrophic failure by WBC and look at the facts.

A declining Population
Fewer jobs
increase in empty houses
An aging population
Less infrastructure than 20 years ago.

Ask yourself, really, genuinely, where is the demand for 12000 houses on the Wirral?

There is lots the Council can do instead of Blaming PEEL and the Government, challenge the numbers. They have a Legal obligation to produce a Local Plan NOT to give away our greenbelt. Even if the PEEL debacle is pie in the sky there is still plenty of land to regenerate and breath life back into Birkenhead.

Again where is the demand for 12000 houses (The SHLAA which was written by consultants in Manchester using data from Experian stating we would have an additional 7000+ jobs on the Wirral!) All of which was sanctioned and approved by WBC!

WBC have royally f**ked up and must now put the wrong right before they destroy the Wirral.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:28am

I read in a document on councils website that Developers were asked (presumably by the Council) to look at Greenfield sites and come up with what they could build on them and which ones were more suitable (i presume e.g. those close to existing infrastructure and services) Think this survey was about 3 or 4 years ago. . Its a long document about 250 pages with a load of stats and estimates for population growth and birth and death statistics, including estimates for non uk migrant increases.
Council have a financial conflict of interest in the type of housing built with a difference of at least £1500 council tax between affordable housing and higher rated ones .

Apparently 6000 empty homes in wirral would suggest demand may not support 12000 new ones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45079648

Plans to build 460,000 homes on land released from the green belt will not help young families get on to the property ladder, say campaigners.

The Campaign to Protect Rural England said 78% of planned developments on greenfield sites do not fall under the government's "affordable" definition.

Its director said people are "being sold a lie" and will "go on struggling to afford a place to live".

A government spokesman said green belt protections were being strengthened.

He added that the green belt is around 30,000 hectares larger than in 1997 and councils can only make changes to its boundaries in "exceptional circumstances".
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 9:25am

Lets not kid ourselves, the only reason developers build on greenfield sites over brown is due to pre-construction costs (far cheaper to start building on a field) and location.

New builds seem to be 4,5,6 bedroom places. Nobody is going to want one on somewhere like HERE.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 12:07pm

I agree, The problem is though if we let this happen it wont be for the benefit of the Wirral.

Anyone who is able to afford one of these 4,5,6 bed houses isn't likely to work on the Wirral, More likely they will commute to Manchester, Liverpool etc. The reason they will move here would be for the Greenbelt views (or whats left of it)

Wirral Council are in panic mode and hell bent on blaming others, its a real shame as this will inevitably lead to our greenbelt being used for building and the sites like those you posted remaining derelict.

It would be really useful if there was someone who knew how this could actually be stopped. At the moment the Planning Committee under Phils Guidance will always vote 7:6 in favor of development on Greenebelt. They will also attempt to claim they have to do this to meet a Legal obligation. It stinks, Watch Phil Davies admit the numbers are wrong but he is powerless to stop it on the Webcast via Wirral Website.

Make no mistake WBC have already made there mind up, WBC wont pay a blind bit of attention to the consultation. Something stronger is needed like legal action to prevent this now.

As I said it would be of great benefit if anyone did know how it could be stopped?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 12:46pm

There are loads of two and three bedroom houses being built on Wirral at the moment, there is also always a need for bigger houses (5+ beds) but there aren't many of those being built for sale.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 5:39pm

Originally Posted by stato
I agree, The problem is though if we let this happen it wont be for the benefit of the Wirral.

Anyone who is able to afford one of these 4,5,6 bed houses isn't likely to work on the Wirral, More likely they will commute to Manchester, Liverpool etc. The reason they will move here would be for the Greenbelt views (or whats left of it)

Wirral Council are in panic mode and hell bent on blaming others, its a real shame as this will inevitably lead to our greenbelt being used for building and the sites like those you posted remaining derelict.

It would be really useful if there was someone who knew how this could actually be stopped. At the moment the Planning Committee under Phils Guidance will always vote 7:6 in favor of development on Greenebelt. They will also attempt to claim they have to do this to meet a Legal obligation. It stinks, Watch Phil Davies admit the numbers are wrong but he is powerless to stop it on the Webcast via Wirral Website.

Make no mistake WBC have already made there mind up, WBC wont pay a blind bit of attention to the consultation. Something stronger is needed like legal action to prevent this now.

As I said it would be of great benefit if anyone did know how it could be stopped?


If the land is used by the owners, then is it still open for compulsory purchase ? If it isn't, can we spread all the horses and cattle out for grazing land. We have been threatened with food shortages after Brexit by those who don't want it. Maximise the land now for the next few years for raising livestock and grain harvest, or even crops and maize for animal feed, should our summers be getting hotter and drier and reduced stock for winter fodder.

There are enough large houses on Wirral have a look along the Meols strip, Hoylake , Caldy, Heswall, Irby, they don't need any more 4/5 beds. For every 4/5 Bed house with double garage and plot to compliment. at least 2 3 bedroom semi detached houses could be built. Over all reducing the amount of land required . If some of the run down areas were also rebuilt that would at least include decent homes and more pleasant surroundings and contribute to the overall figures of new homes. Alternatively, the old rundown properties are likely to remain for a much longer time, without any improvements .
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 6:00pm


There are 850 4 plus beds price range up to £700,000 for sale on Wirral now. Nearly 1,000 in total including the 850 ,over that price.

Why would we need more, and more with 'leasehold' ?

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E93365&minBedrooms=4&maxPrice=700000
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:40pm

That's right, that is why there aren't many developers creating new builds for the 4+ bed, <£700,000 market at the moment.

Part of the reason there are so many higher priced houses on the market is that a temporary interruption to the natural upward flow of house ownership has occurred, partly by creating new build and partly because the cuts in income. The news today shows the extremely rare occurrence of rents being reduced for the Wirral.

The Government has set arbitrary new build targets which aren't based on demand. The Council has zero input on these target figures, they are imposed.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:40pm

There is no housing shortage on the Wirral.

There are 6000+ empty properties though in need of being forced back into the market place, perhaps WBC could look into that?

What there is a demand for is single occupancy homes / flats due to Wirrals aging population, This would in turn 'free' up family homes from where the single occupants have once been.

'Think outside the box' is what I believe Council Leader Phil Davies stated was needed.

Building on greenbelt is hardly thinking at all, more like brown envelopes filled with cash eh Phil?

Half your housing shortage is sorted just from sorting out the empty properties.

Try building what we do actually need (single occupancy housing) allowing housing of all sizes to naturally be released back into the market and maybe you could be actually be thinking outside the box Phil.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:46pm

Originally Posted by stato
There are 6000+ empty properties though in need of being forced back into the market place, perhaps WBC could look into that?


Labour introduced law that enabled this to happen, the Tories changed that law making it virtually impossible for the Council to be able to do this.

The Council is snookered, the Government is controlling what Councils do.

The Government has set a target of 12,000 new builds in 15 years for the Wirral, the Council has to specify where these could be built.

I think your 6000 figure is a bit high for Wirral Council's area, I believe the current figure is somewhere between 2000 and 3000 and that is homes, not properties.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:47pm

This isn't quite correct,

WBC have actually set the demand through the creation of the SHLAA which they commissioned and then sent to Whitehall for approval. So actually WBC have created there own mess.

What they can do though (WBC) is acknowledge the data they used to create this ridiculous demand is flawed and needs re assessing.

This is the only way to get a true Local Plan that actually does what it needs to.


Rental on the Wirral has decreased whilst everywhere else has increased over 5%, this is supply and Demand at work nothing else. Another clear signal that Wirral does not have a housing shortage or need for 800+ houses per year
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 8:51pm

That is not correct, the SHLAA was produced in accordance with the demands of the NPPF which is produced by the Government. However I am fairly sure the goal posts were changed by the Government after the last Wirral SHLAA.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Aug 2018 9:02pm

"The Government has produced a standard method for calculating the minimum number of homes needed in a local authority area. This is based on nationally-published population and household projections. This calculation shows an overall minimum need for new housing of 12,045 new dwellings over 15 years, equal to 803 dwellings per year (net of demolitions). "

The Government set the method of calculation and hence the final target, the Council cannot control this, if Council calculations come up with smaller numbers the Government over-rules them.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 7th Aug 2018 7:07am

Yes and No,

The Evidence Base comes from Wirral Borough Council, which is then sent to Whitehall for approval, It does use the NPFF yes but that only sets the rules, it doesn't provide the Evidence base to calculate the numbers. This comes via Wirral Borough Council

Have a read through these:
https://www.wirral.gov.uk/sites/def...20SHMA%20Final%20Report%20May%202016.pdf


The SHMA is to big to attach but its one of the most important to read. Wirral Borough Council Appointed (NLP) its this Evidence that has been used to set the housing target. Its this Evidence which is fundamentally flawed

Its the SHMA that needs to be corrected via WBC


The SHLAA also contains a lot of errors in how the 5 planning rules have been applied but thats separate and just an issue of WBC incompetence.

What we need to happen is an acknowledgement that the numbers are wrong and a promise that they will be reassessed using competent people who actually know the area rather than an out of town consultancy.

Attached File
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 7th Aug 2018 10:15am

Originally Posted by stato
Anyone who is able to afford one of these 4,5,6 bed houses isn't likely to work on the Wirral, More likely they will commute to Manchester, Liverpool etc. The reason they will move here would be for the Greenbelt views (or whats left of it)


You're right. The massive building schemes on former farmland and fields to the north of Preston, and on the outskirts of Southport are being sold with the taglines of ideal commuting distance to Manchester, Preston, Blackpool and Lancaster.

There are literally thousands being built:

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/politics...-new-homes-to-north-of-preston-1-9280748

I saw an advert for the new builds in Upton saying the same but for Chester and Liverpool.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 7th Aug 2018 5:10pm

Does the Govt 12000 homes figure actually state size of houses? They must have calculated the potential population increase to be far more then 12000 people. That would be an interesting document as it would show the anticipated numbers of children, elderly etc..

I noticed a large building site starting in a field on saughall massey road near Girtrell Road ----- oops just realised its the new fire station. not a housing development.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 8th Aug 2018 9:47pm

I cant see a joined up approach either. Just over in Little Sutton Redrow are building a massive housing estate over 4 phases. 1000s of houses. It spans all the way from Little Sutton to Capenhurst!

The M53 in both Cheshire and Wirral are becoming swamped with developments. How many have the misfortune of trying to get back onto the Wirral between 4 and 7pm. The Roads cannot cope, it is at walking pace everyday from Cheshire oaks all the way upto the Eastham junction.

Any poor soul thinking they might want to go to the croft at the weekend from west wirral has to endure the pain that is spital crossroads and the rounadabout at the bottom of the dip, there is no other way across the Wirral from Heswall or Clatterbridge. When will the Council learn it cannot keep shoe horning housing in every orifice of the Wirral and expect the already dated infrastructure to take the load.

Just look at the state of the A41! does anyone remember when this road was set up so you could drive at 40mph and the lights would all be on green? now even contemplating using this road means enduring a set of traffic lights every couple of hundred metres, what type of qualifications do these town planners have?
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 9th Aug 2018 3:34pm

I think they got a job lot of road signs and traffic lights a few years back. Just as bad going into Birkenhead in a morning from Pensby. Stop, start, stop, start. However, saying that, if these intentions continue and complete I have every sympathy for people going through the Mersey tunnel in a morning. Congestion at Arrowe Park, Congestion at M53 junction 3, same at junction 4, (probably more on route) congestion at both tunnel entrances and congestion trying to get out of the tunnel at the other side in Liverpool.

Add to that cars from the following proposed properties in thislocation and vehicles travelling towards Liverpool, Chester, Manchester . Grid Lock !
Irby 206
Landican 468
Barnston 504
Barnston 189
Irby 182
Irby 522
------------------------------- Total 2071 properties. very mean estimate of cars from those places would be 2250 .

Another 839 houses planned for north of Clatterbridge , so an estimate of an extra 1250 cars on the road from that one place every morning. So we could be looking at over an additional 3,500 cars on the road at least ,during the rush hours from these locations alone .
It did say in Javids remit, for properties to be built by railway stations or regular bus routes where possible. I don't see that is the case in most of the areas listed.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 9th Aug 2018 3:49pm


The obnoxious thing in all of this, is that it was a 'leaked' document !

Would we have even found out about all this before it was too late ? That is Council whom we are supposed to trust and whom are supposed to act on OUR behalf.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 9th Aug 2018 3:55pm



There is still this petition. https://www.change.org/p/councillor...development-brownfield-first?signed=true


What happened to the one Councillor Phillip Brightmore was supposedly starting to be sent to the Minister of Housing? I can't find it anywhere.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 9th Aug 2018 10:23pm

Peel homes promised to build 18000 homes by 2040 on brownfield sites according to latest press release...... oh ye!
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 9th Aug 2018 10:35pm

Originally Posted by fish5133
Peel homes promised to build 18000 homes by 2040 on brownfield sites according to latest press release...... oh ye!



Yeh, and acquire the green belt for fracking ! ??
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Aug 2018 8:20pm

I've been looking at who owns some of the sites in question. A lot of them are owned by House builders already! They are owned by dormant companies like ideal homes north west.

The one thing i did note though was the Farmers hold a lease for in some cases 3 generations or 100 years which ever is sooner.

I guess the only way these can be built on is if they buy back the lease? Any ideas

One I know for certain is on the third generation already and is quite large and on the M53, Another a bit further away has 22 years left on the lease.

Did anyone pick up on Big Phils comment about a garden village? Is this a big hint that he is actually looking somewhere smack bang in the middle of the Wirral where a new junction from the M53 could be added and link to the railway? Is this going to be his attempt to mitigate the infrastructure argument?

I don't agree with any of it, especially the very underhanded way WBC are trying to justify it.

Has anyone wondered why if the review is to look at all options it doesn't include all of the Greenbelt?

Sad state of affairs, even sadder knowing WBC will just do whatever the hell they like.

How come there is money for these studies and there was none to help the people of New Ferry?

WBC have failed to look after our most needy yet somehow they appear to be able to find 17M to build roads for a golf course?
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Aug 2018 11:14pm



I still can't find Philip Brightmore's promised petition to the Minister of Housing.

Here's anther petition. This is to the Minister of Housing from anyone who wishes to sign , not just Wirral, but it's not doing very well so far. Are people complacent or do they just not care ? They'll be the ones screaming and shouting if things go ahead as planned.

https://www.change.org/p/minister-o...een-belt-land-future-generations-need-it
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Aug 2018 11:43pm

If we stop and think about Wirral Waters Development plus all the new housing planned.. nobody will get anywhere in a day. We are after all a cul-de-sac, in fact we will plainly be an extension of Liverpool.
Liverpool's Granny Annexe, both sides of the river just like the Thames , sporting Dubai style sky scrapers and Chinese takeaways .
Bye bye Wirral, welcome pollution, flooding , traffic jams, and noise.

It's quite amazing really , when people go on holiday they can't wait to escape to the beautiful country side, the open spaces and the villages of old England. Have a pint by a log fire in the old world pubs in the Lakes or the Cotswolds, Yet, the same people are responsible for taking the very same pleasures away from those who they are supposed to represent, all in the name of progress .

What about knocking down Brighton Street and King Street, and replacing all the shops that have been bricked up and turned into homes .The Council have been talking about regenerating Brighton Street for years. They could build some lovely houses along there and make the area a lot more appealing and pleasant for residents. It's like another Smithdown Road, Liverpool. So long as the waterfront looks amazing, sod the rest. A beautiful Wallasey Town Hall in the depths of pretty bad surroundings . I also wonder what the intentions are for Birkenhead Town Hall.

Think I'll go to Wales.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 15th Aug 2018 8:01am



Is this magic number anything to do with HS2 and the undoubted influx of people moving north from the 'City' ? The Northern Powerhouse ! Nice new houses, in beautiful locations and did someone talk about a company from Manchester who came up with the figures ?
That would make the whole thing even worse IMO.
If that should be part of the reason so many are needed, it will not contribute to affordable housing for anyone.. prices will rocket and no longer will anyone here be able to purchase, it will have the opposite effect.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 15th Aug 2018 5:55pm

Figures are based on data from the Office of National Statistics (ONS).

The full calculation (corrected) is HERE

Which shows it should be 784 houses a year not 803, so the figure is a meagre 3% wrong.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 15th Aug 2018 9:56pm


Don't trust any of them.. not after they came up with the bright idea a few years ago about combining Wallasey and Kirkdale for an electoral region.
They must have thought the River Mersey was a trout stream.

Has Ellesmere port and Neston also been given a mandate for building large numbers of houses, does anyone know. ?
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 12:48am

Just twigged why Peel not building the houses...NO DEMAND
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 12:54am

Ellesmere Port is building houses in the Cromwell Road industrial area as well as other places.

Chester has plans for at least 1300 homes on Wrexham Road green belt.

Hooton has 265 homes planned for the old Roften site which was classed as green belt even though it is a brownfield site.

Little Sutton has a 460 home development about to go ahead on former green belt, in addition to the two nearby sites that have already been built.

I think West Cheshire targets for new homes is slightly less than ours at around the 700 homes per year but that figure might have been increased recently.

Virtually all the Councils have much the same problems as Wirral because of the enforcements by the Government.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 11:59am

Originally Posted by fish5133
Just twigged why Peel not building the houses...NO DEMAND


Correct! no demand ! neither will there be unless something extraordinary happens on the Wirral

Census data shows a stagnant population on the Wirral.

Remember the Fictitious 'demand' all originates from WBC endorsed figures from the SHMAA they commissioned.

The ref to the incorrect calc may well be true. But the fundamental evidence it uses, as supplied by consultants to WBC is complete nonsense

Heres the link again

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/sites/def...20SHMA%20Final%20Report%20May%202016.pdf

The Government will look to enforce the Local Plan which will use the evidence provided by WBC to complete the Calculation.

WBC Must remove the incorrect evidence they presented for the Local Plan calculation.

Anything over 200dpa is complete nonsense

Have a look at how many people lived on the Wirral 20 / 30 years ago compared to today.

Basically WBC have completely messed this one up, The figures create a false demand, which Big Phil thought he could use to justify his Luxury Golf Course Project on greenbelt.

If Big Phil and his Labour Cabinet are true to there word and will develop brownfield first, they only need to accept they messed up and produce the correct evidence to support the Local Plan. The government WILL hold them to THERE Evidence which produces the 'demand'

The 'demand' IS NOT PRODUCED BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Ask yourself why are WBC forcing this through so quickly? Its not to conform to what the tory government want is it. Its Big Phils Last chance at approving his golf course. If he does what he is supposed to and provide accurate evidence his Golf course will never get built.

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 1:44pm

The projected housing demand is produced by the ONS and is the source data used by the Council hence they are Government figures not Council.

The population size and number of homes do not correlate, the number of people per household has changed dramatically over the years and also varies by area.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 4:43pm

Sorry but you really need to read the SHMA to understand where the demand comes from, I can assure you its not the Government.

The Council have to produce a local plan based on the evidence they put forward.

IN WBC case this was produced by NLP consultants not the ONS.

If it was just ONS and government led why would every council have to produce a local plan?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 5:22pm

Originally Posted by stato
Sorry but you really need to read the SHMA to understand where the demand comes from, I can assure you its not the Government.

The Council have to produce a local plan based on the evidence they put forward.

IN WBC case this was produced by NLP consultants not the ONS.

If it was just ONS and government led why would every council have to produce a local plan?




Why do you think Wirral's figures coincide exactly with the Government calculation using ONS data? Is this a remarkable coincidence or that they are using the same data and the same calculation? Whether its the Council or NLP writing the figures the source data is ONS and the calculation method is the Government's.

The reason that each Council has to write this garbage (as well as thousands of other pieces of garbage) is the same old thing this Government do best, the Government keeps control but passes the blame elsewhere. In theory the Council can come up with different figures to the Government but they have to justify the difference, if the Government doesn't like the different figures they overrule the Council by sending in their own consultants/auditors etc or just punish the Council, especially if its not Conservative.

It doesn't pay a Council to disagree with the Government, the Government have replaced budgets with arbitrary grants which can dry up very quickly.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 8:07pm

Could you provide a link to the figures you mention, it would be good to see them to compare ONS data and WBC data. I cant find Wirral stats specifically on ONS website.

NLP do use ONS Data yes agreed, but you have to look at what they are doing with it in their own model and scenarios they agreed with WBC.

A small extract from NLP below

NLP’s HEaDROOM framework was used to identify locally generated housing
needs based upon an analysis of the demographic, economic, and policy /
supply factors within Wirral. Based on past trends and context of the Borough,
a number of scenarios were identified and agreed with Council Officers
reflecting alternatives for potential future growth within Wirral.


The scenarios agreed with WBC are where the number really start to get inflated.

Irrespective of where , who what or when, does anyone actually believe the Wirral is capable of 800dpa ? Thats a lot of houses and extra people for a Peninsula with rising unemployment, aging population and no major Employers like there once was .

What are all these people going to do for work?

how Will Arrowe Park cope?

im not sure what the schools or doctors surgeries are like in your part of the Wirral, but from the limited part i can see where full! there is no more room, unless a massive infrastructure programme is completed before all these extra houses are built.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Aug 2018 8:59pm

The calculation is explained in John Brace's blog to which I previously posted a link HERE

That gives the relevant ONS links in the explanation which gives household projections for every five years.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 17th Aug 2018 9:49am

This chap appears to have done a thorough analysis and has captured the fundamental flaws

Its worth a read

https://wirralleaks.wordpress.com/2018/08/15/green-belt-do-you-want-facts-and-figures-or-fake-news/
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 17th Aug 2018 10:30am

Originally Posted by stato
This chap appears to have done a thorough analysis and has captured the fundamental flaws

Its worth a read

https://wirralleaks.wordpress.com/2018/08/15/green-belt-do-you-want-facts-and-figures-or-fake-news/


Yes, doing exactly what this Government wants, blaming it all on the Council. The Council is forced to produce those documents and know it doesn't look good for them, no doubt in retaliation they have played devils advocate a bit to try and rescue their reputation.

I haven't checked but has the Council said it needs to allocate all that Greenbelt land or is it a list of potential areas for inclusion in the allocation list?

The idea that building expensive luxury houses in greenbelt land gets higher rates is totally flawed, the Council makes more "profit" from high density areas than more sparsely populated areas.

Whatever, the source of the problem is the ONS data that species our projected housing growth, here are some actual figures of housing for Wirral (from ONS), unfortunately its rounded to nearest thousand. Finding tables of historical number homes for Wirral is proving elusive.

2009 107,000
2010 107,000
2011 105,000
2012 105,000
2013 103,000
2014 103,000
2015 101,000
2016 102,000
2017 102,000

But this doesn't necessarily correlate with number of households, I found a figure 0f 154,411 for 2016 for number of households.
Posted By: venice

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 20th Aug 2018 8:26pm

Where you say high density housing is more profitable for the Council DD , I wonder if that is still correct in 'poorer' high density areas where there is a rebate for people on low incomes. Most people on Income Support, Jobseekers Allowance Income Based, Employment Support Allowance Income Related or Pension Credit Guarantee will qualify for full Council Tax benefit and would not pay,and half of the ones that ARE supposed to pay just dont, and get away with it .

Is it perhaps more profitable in other ways , like maybe more money for the actual land itself if its allowing more properties on it - or anything like that?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 20th Aug 2018 11:36pm

Very astute Venice! The Government grant to councils used to cover some of the exemptions/discounts of Council tax, I'm not quite sure where they lie now as the Government are reducing the grant to a target of zero in exchange for Council's keeping all of business rates (which is obviously a doomed plan as it is self-degenerating, if a council is in financial trouble one year it is not in a position to be able to recover).

An example that relates to one aspect of my statement - a largish property say Band E would be charged £2198.88 If this property is divided into four flats, even if they are rated Band A, that property gets £4,623.28 Council tax. Even taking this to the extreme, if the Property was the top Band H it would still get less than dividing it into four flats at Band A (noting this would be a highly unlikely scenario, the flats would be unlikely to be Band A). There can be some reverse examples but overall the statement holds.

The road sweeping, bin collection, street light maintenance, grass cutting etc is proportionally more expensive to the Council for a luxury house in the suburbs when measured by property numbers or population size. Not forgetting that many other non-council services (although not directly relevant to this discussion) are also subsidised in suburbia eg gas, electricity, telephone, post, fire service, water, sewage, ambulance etc.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Aug 2018 3:40pm

check out the latest here

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/planning-...y/local-plans/core-strategy-local-plan-7

Hopefully someone at WBC has read there own litrature and will see sense!

I found the following particullay interesting given all the talk abouthe naughty government imposing ONS data in the SHLAA!.

The resident population in Wirral using the 2013 Mid-Year Estimates, was 320,295 (males
= 154,247 and females = 166,048).

At strategic and operational levels plans to increase levels of physical activity must not be
set in stone, they should be flexible and respond to predictable changes in age structure,
gender and ethnic composition. The most recent ONS projections indicate a rise of 3.4%
in Wirral’s population (+10,970) over the 25 years from 2012 to 2037.


Oh dear WBC! So by the naughty governments own numbers you quote for playing pitches, you only need to find housing for an extra 11000 people over 25years.

I guess everyone wants to live by themselves in the future!!!! and some of us will need a second home on the Wirral !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Aug 2018 4:12pm

Yes, that's the problem, everybody knows the housing growth is much less than the Government figure but the Government calculation says otherwise.

It is not just ONS data they have to use, its the Government formula as well.

WBC are well aware of the problem, most of the Wirral population are also well aware but the Government doesn't care.

There maybe needs to be a slight amendment to your calculation, because houses are over-priced on the Wirral (according to another Government formula), there is an adjustment to over-supply housing to bring the prices down. This is totally unreal, a developer is not going to over-supply houses, they will take longer to sell. Most developers are on a build-to-demand scenario these days, they aren't built until the buyers put their deposit down.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Aug 2018 4:22pm

So they have the evidence

Why don't they just challenge the numbers and show its unrealistic rather than pushing ahead and releasing swaths of greenebelt

They need to grow a backbone and start standing up for us.

If in September any greenbelt is released it shows how weak our council is.

Whats the point of paying anything for these people if they cant do anything and will just bend over and take it.

Its a disgrace, if they just took some action rather than blame each other they may win back some respect.

At the moment I just see a bun fight were we end up being the losers again.
Posted By: Excoriator

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Aug 2018 10:06pm

I'm getting fed up with every bit of land on the east coast being built on whilst the west coast is preserved as 'green belt.' It is a concept which originally applied to London anyway, not the Wirral.

About time West Kirby, Hoylake and Heswall saw a lot more building if you ask me.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Aug 2018 11:55pm



Probably right but I think it would be far better to build a bridge from N Wales across the River Dee, motorway across Wirral to join the tunnels to Liverpool. That would reduce the traffic problems from N Wales to L'pool, make easier access to Wales and beyond once the Panamax port is fully operational and provide work for the locals.
Make a new town in Wales by using farms that serve no purpose other than providing milk for UK only and turn Offa's Dyke into an expressway .
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 25th Aug 2018 5:01pm

Originally Posted by Excoriator
I'm getting fed up with every bit of land on the east coast being built on whilst the west coast is preserved as 'green belt.' It is a concept which originally applied to London anyway, not the Wirral.

About time West Kirby, Hoylake and Heswall saw a lot more building if you ask me.




You are correct about the m53 a41 corridor. But in general the Wirral isn't I need of any further development.

It doesn't have the London / liverpool/ Manchester popowerhouse. Its rural with small business.

When will WBC learn!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 27th Aug 2018 9:26pm

Originally Posted by stato
When will WBC learn!


Here is the Council cabinet meeting, watch it through, Meeting (and sound) starts at about 2:25 and lasts about 20 minutes.

https://wirral.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/365456
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 28th Aug 2018 9:22am

Yes unfortunately I had the pleasure of watching this live.

Its always someone else's fault!

There are ways they can take control as they speak of. Its the called the SHLAA. If WBC didn't apply the growth scenarios they insisted went into the SHLAA to support Phil Davies other role in the Liverpool city region of growth and enterprise then we would have a more realistic number, Using ONS data of 3.4% over the next planning period.

This would equate to approx 10,000 extra people or (approx 278 dpa)

The SHLAA with WBC growth scenario (that they, WBC choose) equates to an extra 28,800 extra people or (approx 800 dpa)

To take back control as they discuss they (WBC) must scrap the existing SHLAA and write another using the correct information. This is how they regain control, I fear though it isn't what Phil actually wants as it doesn't align with his other role in Liverpool city region or his plans for a golf course.

A 28,800 population explosion on the Wirral over 15 years? that would require massive investment and serious employers setting up substantial operations on the Wirral. It just isn't going to happen.

Whilst the sham consultation plays out though (as we have seen with all other issues on the Wirral recently) we will all be left worse off again.

It would be refreshing to see WBC actually make some positive moves to doing something about this rather than continuously passing on the blame. They can stop this, they just don't want to.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 28th Aug 2018 11:11am

But the SHLAA is only an informatory document, it is not a plan. The Government will still harshly challenge any figures that deviate from theirs.

Every Council that I have checked has the same problem, they are all releasing greenbelt land against the wishes of the Council and their constituents, its not a problem unique to Wirral, the common factor is the Government.

You only have to look at the planning appeals that have gone to the Government and overturned the Councils decision to realise we are on a hiding to nothing while this Government is in power.

The LGA should be acting as a whole and putting the Government under pressure. Even many Tory Councils are under considerable pressure now, there has to be a point where the LGA has to use its power of numbers.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 28th Aug 2018 11:26am

Sorry yes i meant the SHMA 2016 not SHLAA.

Well lets hope WBC put up a better fight.

Will have a look at the LGA website. Have they done anything for any council that you know of regarding greenebelt?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 28th Aug 2018 7:18pm

Originally Posted by stato
Will have a look at the LGA website. Have they done anything for any council that you know of regarding greenebelt?

https://www.local.gov.uk/search/all/greenbelt
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Sep 2018 7:27am

So the new greenbelt boundary according to WBC is the M53 and the trainline to north wales!

Pensby and Irby will be merging due to WBC use of settlement areas

The M53 / A41 corridor will be filled with developments.

No word on any development for Birkenhead or New Ferry!

WBC where unable to answer any questions raised at the 'consultations' yesterday, some where quite technical granted but most where very basic yet WBC failed to answer any.

Site selection takes into account areas and boundaries that WBC know cannot built on but are being used to create a 'substantially enclosed' status of land parcels. This makes there removal from greenbelt much easier even though the area that can actually be developed has a completely different boundary that would fail the criteria for being 'substantially enclosed'

We wont be able to view answers from other residents either until the consultation has closed! seems to be a one way process in an attempt to 'tick' the consulted box yet there is know one at WBC capable of answering any questions raised.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Sep 2018 9:12pm

Anyone get their letter from our council leader blaming peel holdings for renaging on their promise to build 13000 new homes and not ruling out giving up greenbelt land but intimating they will challenge the governments figures. Already merged upton with moreton with new housing estate on manor drive. Looks like the play park opposite is getting geared up for more housing ....big pipes being put in along moreton spur.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Sep 2018 10:10pm

NPFF section 60

To determine the minimum number of homes needed, strategic policies should be informed by a local housing need assessment, conducted using the standard method in national planning guidance – unless exceptional circumstances justify an alternative approach which also reflects current and future demographic trends and market signals. In addition to the local housing need figure, any needs that cannot be met within neighbouring areas should also be taken into account in establishing the amount of housing to be planned for.

We have exceptional circumstances so Big Phil should have already been looking at this before this sham Consultation.

I've reviewed the evidence available at Wirral.gov. It is full of errors and incomplete. It has been cobbled together and makes rash decisions like the removal of Eastham Country Park from the greenbelt because they have taken all of the land parcels out of the greenbelt in between!

The biggest con though is there use of Urban sprawl and claiming sites are highly enclosed using boundaries that cannot be developed upto. This means sites that include parks woodland, nature reserves etc are classed as highly enclosed when in reality the small proportion that could potentially be developed would infact be poor enclosed.

I think the only way out of this now is to do the work for WBC, there hearts aernt in it to save our greenbelt and from the performance I witnessed last night they are not capable of producing accurate information to be put forward in the Local Plan.

They have rolled out old SHLAA info because they are not prepared. No transport study, No flood assessment, Highways input lacking yet sites are being assessed and housing numbers calculated!

I was hoping the meeting on the 10th Sept would align our councillors to protect our greenbelt but from I witnessed its full steam ahead from WBC with no answer to any questions raised so I see the meeting turning into a complete bun fight.

Last resort but emigrating is a serious consideration now, Zero confidence in WBC, they are about to destroy the Wirral and wont even put up a fight.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Sep 2018 11:49pm


I just see the whole thing designed for Liverpool overspill.

Phil's words :

In February 2018 the Leader of Wirral Council, Councillor Phil Davies stated “I am not prepared to allow our Green Belt land to be built on. I am resolute about that commitment. It is the Jewel in Wirral’s Crown and greatly valued by our residents”


What changed Mr Davies ?

https://www.change.org/p/councillor...development-brownfield-first?signed=true
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Sep 2018 1:14am

Perhaps houses should be built on politician's gardens before infiltrating green belt.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Sep 2018 8:19pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Perhaps houses should be built on politician's gardens before infiltrating green belt.


Would never fly, they all live on unsuitable sites according to the maps!

On a serious note though it is interesting to see that from the sites that have been shortlisted WBC already know half are not viable, even with the sites proposed when the real parcels are revealed it still wont meet the numbers WBC want to meet.

I suspect there is another twist in this saga, Big Phil might just get his Garden Villages at Clatterbridge and north of Brimstage after all.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Sep 2018 7:03pm

Take a look at WBC Core Strategy for Wirral.

https://www.wirral.gov.uk/sites/def...0Wirral%20Spatial%20Options%20Report.pdf

The New land grab is in direct conflict with the broad spatial areas created.

WBC have effectively abandoned Spatial Area 1 (Birkenhead) in direct contradiction with this core strategy.


Some other interesting numbers in there like population growth. Worth a look when wanting to challenge the planners at the consultations.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Sep 2018 7:44pm

Sections 5 and 6 of that Core Strategy specifically mention the priorities with the greenbelts included as the lowest priority and include maps of the potential areas that may need to be used..
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Sep 2018 9:04pm

If your referring to the third option then perhaps but there are two preferred options before that one you selected both of which WBC preferred and if memory serves me correct they adopted option 1 not 3. The core strategy clearly states in section 5 for option 1:

Thisprioritywouldapplytoallformsofdevelopment,includinghousing,retail, employment and services. Outside the regeneration priority areas the emphasis would be on maintaining existing patterns of provision, replacing existing facilities andprovidingforidentifiedlocalneeds,unlessspecificstrategicopportunitiescould identified,suchastheWirralInternationalBusinessPark,theManchesterShipCanal
Core Strategy for Wirral - Spatial Options Report100
CreatedwithLimehouseSoftwarePublisherCoreStrategyforWirral-SpatialOptionsReport
andtheHoylakeGolfResort. Previouslyundevelopedgreenfieldsiteswouldnotbe developed until previously developed brownfield opportunities had first been taken up.

What this shows is there was a plan but WBC have failed to deliver it. Jumping the gun now and trying to back fit a far worse scenario than option 3 is ridiculous.

They even highlight he pressures placed on the A41 and Spital road in this strategy but have decided to load them up even more with no ability to ease the burden! Genius!

Spatial Area 1 is no longer Birkenhead, WBC appear to have a new flawed strategy and make Bromborough Spatial Area 1. Birkenhead will be allowed to wither and die.

The evidence they are presenting isnt even complete for the consultation and is full of mistakes.

I hope everyone is pointing out the mistakes to there local councillors for the 10th Sept. This Council has to go, they have no backbone and couldn't fight a wet lettuce.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 6th Sep 2018 10:21pm

Option 1 was on the assumption that Wirral Waters would meet most of the growth requirement which of course isn't going to happen on time if at all.

One annoying factor about Peel is that they own the Cammell Laird land and could be quite nasty, as indeed they threatened a while ago.

Peel acquired MDHC for about £800m, I would be very interested to know if Wirral got any of that money. I would also like to know how much the Cammell Laird land raised for Wirral when it was sold to MDHC/Peel and where that money went.

Peel have a dominant amount of prime land in Merseyside and a monopoly on docklands, there should be controls over this monopolistic empire. They are controlling development in many areas not just Merseyside and abusing their position to the cost of the public amenity and finances.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 10th Sep 2018 9:12pm

So tonight we have just witnessed the Labour council admit they are moving ahead with the release of green belt. They can stop this yet have chosen not to.

Liberal and Conservative Councillors all opposed, Only Labour Councillors in support!!!

What an absolute disgrace, these people aren't councillors, they are crooks, they certainly don't represent the people of Wirral.


There are seven Labour individuals who will against the will of everyone else vote the destruction of our green belt through, Why? What's in it for them? When they state they don't want to yet are backing it all the way when it comes to the actual vote, serious questions have to raised regarding there true motive for this.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 10th Sep 2018 10:40pm

Originally Posted by stato
So tonight we have just witnessed the Labour council admit they are moving ahead with the release of green belt. They can stop this yet have chosen not to.

Liberal and Conservative Councillors all opposed, Only Labour Councillors in support!!!

What an absolute disgrace, these people aren't councillors, they are crooks, they certainly don't represent the people of Wirral.


There are seven Labour individuals who will against the will of everyone else vote the destruction of our green belt through, Why? What's in it for them? When they state they don't want to yet are backing it all the way when it comes to the actual vote, serious questions have to raised regarding there true motive for this.


Plenty of back handers or maybe the land has already been allocated to builders, and it'll cost too much to grab it back. Is that possible ?

So it has to be assumed, that if the Lib/Dems and Tories opposed it, then the fact must be that it can be opposed and does not have to go through !

I also assume that the labour councillor for Pensby/Thingwall who, in the meeting he held at St. Michaels Church Hall a few weeks ago, vowed he would not be in favour of this, would do everything he could to stop it and would vote against it, has actually done the exact opposite ! The same councillor who voted for the development at Hoylake .

There's a lot of sour grapes , I believe , but looking at the suggested green belt sites, the stretch of land along the M53 is huge.

Good luck to them. Irby is built on clay, and they had enough problems with the Wimpey Houses when that estate was built .

I must say that the petition that has been raised is very disappointing. Only 4,000 signatures so far, so we have to assume that most of the public of Wirral are in favour.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Sep 2018 2:18am

Of course the opposition parties voted against it to make themselves look like the good guys protecting the greenbelt but of course their vote made no difference to the outcome and they don't get the fallout.

If the vote had blocked the greenbelt release, the Council would have been non-compliant with Government policy and in would come the Government takeover of the Council. Once that process starts it all goes pear shaped with the Council continuing to get the blame for all that ensues even they are no longer in control.

Have a look at what happened to Thanet over building control.

Have a look at what happened to Northamptonshire over finances.

In both cases the Council gets the blame but it is Government policy and Government intervention that is causing the problems.

Here are two predictions from my crystal ball (provided we remain under a Tory Government).

Firstly, never mind what happens with Brexit (stay, leave, deal or no deal), the Government will use the outcome to justify even more cuts to local Councils.

Secondly, the flow of money to the richest from the poorest will increase.

We have the worst performing Government ever but the focus is on the opposition party, you couldn't make it up! I bet the average person knows more about members of the shadow cabinet than the Government cabinet. Why are we not focussed on the Government and its actions? Talk about deception and deflection, this Government is a master of it.

The Government's official propaganda line on housing is that they want to build more to bring house prices down, which would be very commendable if it was true but its not true. Every time house prices drop, they go into a mad panic about the collapse of the housing market which proves what a lie their incentive is. The real incentive is for money to be transferred to rich investors who fund the developers and invest in property. Having a five year float of housing (their target) is yet another tax on the poor if you follow the money trail.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Sep 2018 7:01am

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Of course the opposition parties voted against it to make themselves look like the good guys protecting the greenbelt but of course their vote made no difference to the outcome and they don't get the fallout.

If the vote had blocked the greenbelt release, the Council would have been non-compliant with Government policy and in would come the Government takeover of the Council. Once that process starts it all goes pear shaped with the Council continuing to get the blame for all that ensues even they are no longer in control.

Have a look at what happened to Thanet over building control.

Have a look at what happened to Northamptonshire over finances.

In both cases the Council gets the blame but it is Government policy and Government intervention that is causing the problems.

Here are two predictions from my crystal ball (provided we remain under a Tory Government).

Firstly, never mind what happens with Brexit (stay, leave, deal or no deal), the Government will use the outcome to justify even more cuts to local Councils.

Secondly, the flow of money to the richest from the poorest will increase.

We have the worst performing Government ever but the focus is on the opposition party, you couldn't make it up! I bet the average person knows more about members of the shadow cabinet than the Government cabinet. Why are we not focussed on the Government and its actions? Talk about deception and deflection, this Government is a master of it.

The Government's official propaganda line on housing is that they want to build more to bring house prices down, which would be very commendable if it was true but its not true. Every time house prices drop, they go into a mad panic about the collapse of the housing market which proves what a lie their incentive is. The real incentive is for money to be transferred to rich investors who fund the developers and invest in property. Having a five year float of housing (their target) is yet another tax on the poor if you follow the money trail.



I understand when people want to defend the party they love, but we have to remember this isnt the labour party. This is a corrupt self centered single minded set of individuals masquerading as labour.

If I was Phil D, I would show the people of Wirral I oppose this and explain (if it is indeed the case) that by standing up for what is right the government will now take over. How can this be any worse than what they are currently proposing or dealing with at WBC.

By showing weakness in this way and complying just to save there skins just shows what a bunch of complete losers we have in charge at WBC.

They should fall on there sword and do the right thing, whatever the consequence.

Seriously what can the Government do when they take over that could be in any way worse?
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Sep 2018 9:30am

What I can't understand is that Feb 2018 WMBC has already secured £6million towards 1,100 new homes by 2025.

http://ymliverpool.com/wirral-1000-new-homes/31105

Peel Holdings 14 March 2018 : Peel announces major milestone for Wirral Waters

Once complete, Wirral Waters will deliver up to 20m sq. ft of floor space – more than the equivalent of 300 football pitches – including 4m sq. ft of office space, up to 13,000 residential units and 1m sq. ft of industrial space at MEA Park.

These projects have been assisted by the announcement from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government of a £6m HIF (Housing Infrastructure Fund) allocation to Wirral Waters.


https://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/news/peel-announces-major-milestone-wirral-waters/


Wirral Waters: November 2016 : Wirral Waters named one of six new Housing Zones

Developers will also be able to apply for funding from the government’s Home Building Fund, which is making £3 billion available to house builders.

https://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/news/wirral-waters-named-one-six-new-housing-zones/

So is Wirral getting two lots of funding, which they've already applied for, and for double the housing. 13,000 Wirral Waters , and another 12,000 in addition, threatening Green Belt ?

That's a total of 25,000 new homes on Wirral and the council is getting funding for both projects ? That's not the criteria so maybe the council just want to land grab now, whilst the going is good. We don't need 25,000 new homes on Wirral, surely.

I see there's a petition out against Joe Anderson selling off Calderstones Park for the same reason. People of Liverpool are needless to say far more concerned , and they have 35,000 signatures already.
The whole thing looks like a desperate act for a reason that is being kept from us...... or is it that developers are allowed to pick and choose their land ? If that's the case, the fact is it's not their land to pick and choose from .

Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Sep 2018 4:53pm

Originally Posted by stato
I understand when people want to defend the party they love, but we have to remember this isnt the labour party. This is a corrupt self centered single minded set of individuals masquerading as labour.


Believe me, I don't like our Labour Council one little bit but that doesn't bias me into slagging them off when blame is not (entirely) due. The Tory Government is far more insidious than our Council and deserve lambasting for all the suffering they are creating.


Originally Posted by granny
What I can't understand is that Feb 2018 WMBC has already secured £6million towards 1,100 new homes by 2025.


That grant was towards the infrastructure to facilitate new homes, it wasn't for use of building any homes, Peel have probably managed to extract most of that money already which will have paid for things to be done to Peel property at the taxpayers expense. That's how Peel works, they extract money from Councils but hardly ever deliver their promises on the expected timescale.

One tactical advantage of releasing the greenbelt is it could develop a race between Peel on their land and the potential of another developer on the former greenbelt. Peel's land will be considerably devalued if large developments happen nearby so this might actually kick Peel into action first and hence cancel the need for the use of greenbelt land, parallel development would be financially disastrous to all parties and probably lead to abandoned projects.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 11th Sep 2018 8:22pm

Originally Posted by stato
Seriously what can the Government do when they take over that could be in any way worse?


Wirral so far hasn't done so bad out of the Government's austerity cuts. Other Councils have had to close the majority of libraries, close children's playgrounds, sell off local parkland, sell off sites of special interest, sell off parts of national parks, sell of profitable assets such as rentable buildings and farms, sell off main museums etc etc

The Councils are highly dependent on discretionary grants from the Government, you show any non-compliance with Government policy and those grants dry up.

Many grants are arbitrary/subjective, there is no precise formula for entitlement nor amount, there is no formal appeal process, the Government says no and you lose them. Many of our recent road repair works have been from grants, the street light program is mostly funded from grants and I'm sure many more. We need those grants to survive, we cannot afford to piss off the Government.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 15th Sep 2018 10:12pm

Obviously a lot of water has already gone under the bridge... one wonders how much !


https://wirralleaks.wordpress.com/2...yre-not-happy-bunnies-at-claremont-farm/


Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 16th Sep 2018 11:29am

Originally Posted by granny
Obviously a lot of water has already gone under the bridge... one wonders how much !


https://wirralleaks.wordpress.com/2...yre-not-happy-bunnies-at-claremont-farm/



This one I find quite interesting as I spoke with the Lancelyn Greens a few months back and they were opposed, so much so there solicitor was writing to WBC. Obviously someone isn't telling the whole truth! The Wirral Waters letter may actually finally see Big Phil Walk, and good riddance.

We just need someone now with a backbone who will stand up for the Wirral.

Another interesting part in the WBC presentation, the additional 20% they added onto the numbers! this was added because they already knew they were going to fail with there brownfield projections, and will allow greenbelt to suffer because of there incompetence.

The Claremont farm post has been very useful as more and more people are not starting to realise how corrupt our council is. The writing is on the wall for big Phil, just hope his band of puppets go with him
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 18th Sep 2018 9:17am



https://www.facebook.com/1070090656...086/1132551820242756/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/1070090656...086/1132551840242754/?type=3&theater
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 21st Sep 2018 5:34pm

The Office of National Statistics (ONS) review has reduced the requirement of new homes in Wirral from 803 to 478 a year.

This shows yet another idiocy of the Government forcing Councils to produce figures that comply with their own immediately before reviewing their own Government figures. Now every Council will have to amend all the documents they have been forced to produce.

Also it has been a waste of time and effort of having the public consultations before the review.
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 21st Sep 2018 10:04pm

DUH... I wonder when they will become aware of the benefits of joined-up thinking? What a waste of resources...
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 22nd Sep 2018 8:02am

Its still far too high, when you look at actual completions on Wirral, Which is the real 'need' driven through supply and demand.

But its a good start, highlighting the ridiculous numbers that have been banded about by WBC.

https://johnbrace.com/

The local plan consultation (sham) must now be stopped, I have not had any feedback to any questions raised and it would appear neither has anyone else. The analysis is flawed and full or errors. I checked just one land parcel (SP043) as WBC seemed to single this one and a couple of others out, and it had over 50 concerns and errors in the data provided. The documents are way out of date and not complete. No highways assessments or environmental impact assessments.

The biggest mistake is assessing land parcels that aren't actually developable (SP043) so they can class them as 'highly enclosed'. They will then chop the site up into developable parcels under the pretense they are also highly enclosed. Its a disgrace.


WBC's slogan 'we are brownfield first' ! This statement keeps being banded about by the WBC numpties yet there is nothing in there local plan of how this will be actually achieved. Show us how your going to actually enforce 'we are brownfield first'

Two more WBC numpties have just resigned, Big Phil you cant hang on for much longer can you?
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 22nd Sep 2018 1:43pm

Originally Posted by stato
But its a good start, highlighting the ridiculous numbers that have been banded about by WBC.


Not WBC it was Government figures and calculations that WBC quoted.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 22nd Sep 2018 3:15pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
Originally Posted by stato
But its a good start, highlighting the ridiculous numbers that have been banded about by WBC.


Not WBC it was Government figures and calculations that WBC quoted.


Im still not 100% convinced its just a Government number, but okay if it is, does this mean the Local plan (proposed) will have to be changed and we may now see the green belt being left alone? We broadly have enough on brownfield to meet the new figure.


The reason I ask is this would appear to do exactly what Wirral residents want (not destroy the green belt) but will WBC react or just carry on regardless?


The reason I say this is I'm not sure there isn't some other motivation at WBC to go along with the inflated figures.


I sincerely hope not for the sake of 1000s of wirral residents whos minds could be put at ease that they wont see our green belt destroyed?

I will ask David Ball and encourage others to do the same, see if he can manage to answer this simple question, If they (WNC) are genuine 'brownfield first' hopefully we will see a swift response!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 22nd Sep 2018 6:48pm

Yes, the local plan etc will be changed to match the new Government figures, as the release date of this review has been known about for ages it shows how ludicrous it was that they had to create the local plan before it. However, some of these documents are not living documents so may need to wait to its next period - I forget which docs are on what cycle.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 24th Sep 2018 5:42pm

Originally Posted by stato
The reason I ask is this would appear to do exactly what Wirral residents want (not destroy the green belt) but will WBC react or just carry on regardless?


Here is your answer https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ne...duction-in-face-of-population-estimates/
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 7:08am

Councillor Davies keen to appease the naughty government again!

https://johnbrace.com/2018/09/28/cl...eally-develop-any-part-of-the-greenbelt/

Just use the ONS numbers Phil, why do you keep making excuses?

Its clear now WBC do not want to use the lower numbers and want to find a way to have them increased (and then blame others)

Continuing with a local plan that includes greenbelt when its not required is very dangerous.

Irrespective of 'need' WBC can now decide what they like!

What this means is WBC WILL be releasing greenbelt first even though the government (ONS) data shows there is no requirement to do so.

And not a single one built will be social housing! well done Wirral Labour party
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 10:18am



Does that mean they are going to compulsory purchase green belt and take it into their control to do with what they like at a later date ?

If it does, that's totally wrong , and particularly considering this Council have now spent about 20yrs trying to sell off their assets !
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 11:08am

They wont compulsory purchase, but they will be releasing land from greenbelt to allow the land owners to effectively build whatever they like.

There is something seriously wrong here. We now have Government data showing the number needed yet our council insist on going back to check if they don't want to increase the number!

What are they hiding? something must have already been agreed behind closed doors
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 11:22am

Build on the golf courses.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 11:36am

Shysusie they wont do that, instead they intend to build another golf course with the full backing of the Council leader! Oh and 140 Band H properties (yes Band H!)

What they are also proposing to do is use High value Agricultural land that provides local jobs and fresh produce to local residents and business to greedy developers for 4 - 5 bedroom houses. It is also removing valuable Free open spaces to residents.

And this Council is supposedly Labour!

Phil Davies blamed the government, he was then given a lifeline with new ONS data last week. Instead of seizing it and throwing out the abuse of our openspaces he has gone back to clarify and make sure they dont want to UP the number again! beggars belief.

I sincerely hope people understand what they are voting for in May. WBC pretend to be something they clearly are not!
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 11:43am

The Council are quite right to check the Government won't change the goalposts (again), as Phil Davies noted the Government have an overall target of 300,000 new houses (to get their developer and investor friends nice and rich), the latest ONS figures does not total that figure so the Government will either have to tweak the requirement calculations or reduce their overall target.

The only thing that is being hidden, even though it is in plain view, is the Government's motives for the housing. If they truly wanted to reduce house prices, they would focus their building in areas where housing is dearest (if you reduce the prices at the top, the prices fall in the structure below) eg London. Also they should continue with the stalled programme of decentralisation. They won't do either of those things because their investor buddies are making huge amounts of money in property and land around London.

There is new Social Housing in the pipeline on the Wirral however its fairly pointless, I paid substantially less rent to my private Landlord than my neighbours did in their social housing, the two are not far apart these days because the Government introduced LHA which effectively becomes a target both for social and private housing.

Once the public start trusting the banks again no doubt the Government will re-start the right-to-buy con which is another way of transferring money from the poor to the rich. The basic theory of right-to-buy is sound however it needs to be controlled, something that intentionally hasn't been done previously.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 12:04pm

Which brings me back to a point I raised a while ago.

If all we have is a council that has to ask and check if everything is okay all of the time, why do we bother having one.

They appear to have no responsibility or accountability for anything. They have become a very expensive post box.

If Phil is genuine why doesn't he just call their bluff and crack on with the figures given, if it messes up the Local Plan then yes he could then legitimately blame the government. Manchester Council have postponed there Local Plan in anticipation of the new ONS Data.

I find this whole ping pong match very frustrating to watch, its like the consultation process, why are we dealing with people who dont make the decisions. Im sure they also find the process as frustrating and none value adding as I do.
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 1st Oct 2018 12:15pm

I know lots of people around Romford did the right to buy thing. Then bought themselves places in Spain to live and rented their former 'social house' to not people who need social housing but hipster types happy to pay the £1200 + per month going rent. So the people like me are priced out. One reason I ended up here.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Oct 2018 6:59am

short terms gains for long term pain unfortunately. Councils liked the idea to get properties of there books. If you've rented a house though for 40 years and you get an opportunity to actually own it why wouldn't you?

The bigger problems with all the houses being proposed isnt about the houses though its infrastructure, jobs, services. No comparison with site selection against 'spare capacity' in the system.

WBC plan of wedging in more and more housing along the A41 has been a complete disaster. There are areas now who dont live in school catchment areas because the schools that were once there have been closed or knocked down. The schools around Eastham and Bromborough cannot cope yet we see more and more developments being approved with no provision for extra services.

Look what the council approved at Acre lane. Shoe horn in another 220 houses onto a plot with only one way in and out on an already high density ex council estate. Oh and then propose to take away the car park at the nearest set of shops to build MORE houses on. Well done WBC planners, another fine example of top town planning ehh.

WBC idea to use a new greenbelt boundary that was first proposed over 30 years ago is now flawed. Since then the services in the M53 A41 corridor have become saturated, there is no spare capacity.

We are no reaping what we sow, and the more p!ss poor planning we get out of WBC the worse its going to get.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if our planners actually planned a proper estate with all the services and infrastructure it needed, rather than adding extensions to existing ones all of the time. They had a opportunity to do this and create a new motorway junction and train station but borked at the idea as it involved doing a bit. No instead its going to be more of the same P!ss poor planning unfortunately.

WBC talk of not just letting any development through, great! then show us the 'need' show us how you have planned in the extra demand on services and infrastructure, show us the Highways and environmental impact studies, show us the local jobs available for these 'new' local people.


Society is going backwards here on the Wirral. WBC seem very keen to create an overcrowded underserviced slum between the M53 and A41, once a beautiful place to live, meanwhile over in Birkenhead, no investment or effort to improve the real 'need' This area is now derelict with even the council offices falling apart.

Building more is the answer for Wirral, We need to build Better!

Grow a pair WBC and take control of the situation!
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Oct 2018 8:41am

It's a shame. The Wirral is a lovely place and these idiots are trying to make it into a concrete jungle. I was talking to an old lady and she is 88 and can remember Wallasey Village having old cottages still and Prenton being fields and all the big estates not being built. Now the last bit we got left is going to be built on. Not to provide cheap houses but very expensive ones.

Seems the planners are quite stupid but then if they were any good at what they do, they would not be working for the council would they?
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Oct 2018 11:25am



Apparently land at the end of the parade in Parkgate , past the Quay pub where the garden centre was, is in the pipeline too, for a couple of hundred. A beautiful location for property developers.
Not sure if that would be WMBC or West Cheshire, but another few hundred on land between Willaston and Hooton station . This is what I have been told.

Imagine Parkgate with that volume of additional traffic ? Bad enough now along the prom on a sunny day or at the weekend.

Maybe these are all suggested sites, but my goodness no stone has been unturned.
Posted By: jimbob

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Oct 2018 2:37pm

lots have been happy to se a big increase of the population in this country and not give a thought to the fact that larger population means more places for people to live in.
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 2nd Oct 2018 3:25pm

Originally Posted by jimbob
lots have been happy to se a big increase of the population in this country and not give a thought to the fact that larger population means more places for people to live in.


Quite agree. I am not racist one bit. Far from it. But just been to Liverpool - ages since I have been - and for a minute I thought I was in North Africa!

Loads of black, Asian and Arabic looking guys standing around in groups or sitting outside cafes without drinks looking really miserable and cold.

I think our wonderful government is just letting everyone in and dumping them.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 3rd Oct 2018 6:46am

Perhaps in London yes. But not on the Wirral?

The only people we have loitering around coffee shops is our ever increasing aging population, you know that really anti social mob of hell blazers causing havoc on there mobilty scooters.

The Young are leaving Wirral due to lack of Jobs not becasue there is a lack of housing.
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 3rd Oct 2018 8:10am

Post Reported and removed.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 4th Oct 2018 7:10pm

its official look!

https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/16961143.pensioners-households-will-grow-sharply-in-wirral/


never mind all those bloody foreigner's! the blue rinse brigade are taking over
Posted By: ShySusie

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 5th Oct 2018 1:20am

OMG! It's already grumpyland! Time to get back to Essex where no one is older than 55.
Posted By: granny

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Oct 2018 12:46pm

Could this have anything to do with land banking in Ellesmere Port area ? Fracking Site land owned by Peel Holdings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28399134


https://wirralleaks.wordpress.com/tag/green-belt/
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 12th Oct 2018 2:22pm

The Ellesmere Port fracking site is at Portside North which is an industrial area beside the Manchester Ship Canal.

I don't have anything against fracking with the safety measures the UK has put in place (including the recent slight relaxation of rules). Its nothing like the virtually unregulated free-for-all in the States and makes us less dependent on importing a lot of our energy.
Posted By: stato

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 19th Oct 2018 8:30pm

And so it's now almost official. Wirral Council is bankrupt. ..


And now we know why Phil the liar Davies has resigned and his team of puppets want to sell off our green belt

Well guess what Phil our pockets are deeper than yours so bring it on. We will fight you all the way. You cheeky b*******
Posted By: locomotive

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 20th Oct 2018 7:53pm

What happened to the money that this council had lent to other Councils, approx £51,700,00 since 2013/14, have they had it back? or why haven't they? surely they can't be bankrupt with all that money out on loan, or is there something we don't know about.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: More threats to Wirral's Green Belt - 20th Oct 2018 10:35pm

Originally Posted by locomotive
What happened to the money that this council had lent to other Councils, approx £51,700,00 since 2013/14, have they had it back? or why haven't they? surely they can't be bankrupt with all that money out on loan, or is there something we don't know about.


Looking through their accounts I can't see those LA loans, "other local authorities" owe the Council £1.1m.

They pale into insignificance compared to the £170m the Council owe.
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