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Another Parking Ticket

Posted By: fish5133

Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 12:52am

Popped over to a church in Liverpool . Whole area was either meters with a 2 hour max £4.40 which was no good as service was 2 hours long at least. Rest of the streets were single yellow but with no time designation saying when you could park. Managed to find a space where the yellow line had been removed and tarmaced over giving the impression of a parking space... so squeezed in imbetween the 2 ends of the single yellow. Got a ticket! Took a load of photos for my evidence but noticed the photos on Liverpool council website even show there is no yellow line.... Made an informal challenge to it..

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Posted By: Dougiem

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 6:13am

Good luck with the appeal, could also tell them that rule 238 of the highway code states you can't park on yellow lines and it's obvious that the lines have been removed and there should also be a timeplate on a post or street lamp nearby showing the times of restricted parking. Think someone was too eager to give a ticket out to think about the legality of it !
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 7:02am

Originally Posted by Dougiem
Good luck with the appeal, could also tell them that rule 238 of the highway code states you can't park on yellow lines and it's obvious that the lines have been removed and there should also be a timeplate on a post or street lamp nearby showing the times of restricted parking. Think someone was too eager to give a ticket out to think about the legality of it !


Not sure about the timeplate thing ..will check the code but i think it says if there isnt one then you cant park. had missus check on phone while we were there. The area is deserted on a sunday and the only couple of cars we saw were parked at meters. Also heard that the church had come to some arrangement with the council about parking on sunday. Dont know what people do around there in the week as 2 hours max on a parking meter is not much if you work there. Area back of T J Hughes ff London Road..

The pastor of the church told the congregation he had spotted the warden and 3 or 4 people left. Heard the warden ask a couple of people to move as they had parked between the yellow line and the church building..not really a pavement. I didnt bother as the only place to move to was a meter and I was in that couldnt give a monkeys mood so bring it on council..
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 9:23am

Originally Posted by fish5133
Rest of the streets were single yellow but with no time designation saying when you could park.


They got rid of the old individual signs is many towns and cities years ago in favour of "controlled zones":

https://liverpool.gov.uk/parking-travel-and-roads/controlled-parking-zones/

Quote
A controlled parking zone (CPZ) is an area where all on street parking is controlled. When you enter a zone there are entry signs to tell you what restrictions apply within it. When you are in a zone, parking is only allowed in designated parking bays. Waiting restrictions (yellow lines) apply everywhere else.

There is no free parking within the city centre between 8am and 6pm.


Posted By: venice

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 1:32pm

Think you may be a bit snookered fish - last course of action to try if all else fails is compassionate grounds. --Oh, Im sorry to hear that fish, your poor old granny !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 3:46pm

As far as I am aware, the CPZ only removes the requirement for sign posts, it doesn't remove the requirement for a yellow lines ie the CPZ only applies to yellow line areas.

You could also mention religious discrimination whereby religions with long services are being discriminated against, sounds picky but sometimes the absurd carries more weight than common sense (eg the law on turbans for bikers).
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 18th Jun 2018 10:18pm

Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
As far as I am aware, the CPZ only removes the requirement for sign posts, it doesn't remove the requirement for a yellow lines ie the CPZ only applies to yellow line areas.

You could also mention religious discrimination whereby religions with long services are being discriminated against, sounds picky but sometimes the absurd carries more weight than common sense (eg the law on turbans for bikers).


Thats what i would have thought..council cant solely rely on some hidden legislation or a sign 400 yds away.

The code on the PCN says "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours" No idea where the "prescribed hours" are prescribed (apparently on a controlled zone sign somewhere). Was more interested in the blue P signs trying to look for somewhere to park. A "controlled zone" sign doesnt tell you where the boundaries are for that zone..
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 19th Jun 2018 9:23am

I think the appeal will be successful, others have won for badly marked bays or faded / broken / tarmaced over lines.
Posted By: venice

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 19th Jun 2018 9:46am

Fingers crossed for you fish!
Posted By: Salmon

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 19th Jun 2018 9:53am

If it actually says "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours" this is different from a CPZ .

A Restricted Parking Zone (RPZ) is an area where if you wish to park or wait - you can only do so in a designated parking bay - even if there are no double yellow lines painted on the roads.

Loading or unloading your vehicle is also not allowed outside of bays.

Fingers crossed for you Fish, not a nice thing to happen at the best of times but seems worse while in a church.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 19th Jun 2018 10:46am

Lets hope that it is a CPZ and the ticket issued was incorrect. CPZ's are bounded by the sign, there are end of CPZ on the back of them, the same as speed limits.

Interestingly, Liverpool doesn't mention RPZs on its website, only CPZs and Residential Parking Zones.

Like @fish says, trying to keep track of road signs is not at all easy if areas are zoned most of us are pre-programmed to be looking at the standard speed limit signs and such-like. I remember stopping at a set of traffic lights and counting over 40 signs etc visible from that point, its ridiculous.

Liverpool could be more helpful by putting maps on their website of restricted zones but that would be asking too much wouldn't it.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 20th Jun 2018 9:37am

Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (non-goods vehicles)

This is known as Contravention code 01

Quote
Contravention code 01 is summarised as parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (non-goods vehicles).

Non goods vehicles

Contravention code 01 shall be used for non-goods vehicles (cars, motorbikes, and so on) seen to be parked in contravention on double or single yellow lines.

A five-minute observation period will be applied to non-goods vehicles.

Single yellow lines

Single yellow lines must be accompanied by a time plate which indicates the hours during which the restriction applies.

A time plate is not required for single yellow lines within a controlled parking zone (on-street pay and display area).


The photo you have of the tarmacced over line will win you this.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 19th Sep 2018 11:48pm

3 months later they notify me that my informal challenge to the PCN is rejected saying i parked on a single yellow line.. ... . Funny i parked where the single yellow line had been removed..Oh well will take it to the next level
Posted By: granny

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 20th Sep 2018 12:20am



Tell them they should go to Spec Savers !
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 20th Sep 2018 2:30am

If you are either really bored sometime or just determined to fight this, it might be worth checking the size of the CPZ .....

Parking guidance and statutory guidance 31st March 2008 issued by the Government to Local Authorities states that a CPZ should not be larger than 12 streets.

“Clause E5: The Secretary of State's view is that motorists cannot reasonably be expected to read, understand and remember the parking restrictions at the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone that covers an area of more than a dozen streets. CPZs rely solely on zone entry signs to give times of operation and to remove the need for time plates within the zone, except on lengths of road where the restrictions apply at different times to the rest of the zone. The area of a CPZ should, therefore, be restricted to, for example, a Town Centre shopping area. A single zone covering a whole town, or suburb of a conurbation, would be much too large. Conventional time plate signing, without zone entry signs, should accompany the yellow sign markings where large areas have waiting restrictions. Time plates are not necessary where there are double yellow lines.”
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 20th Sep 2018 5:24pm

I will fight it because a) i think the PCN is invalid and b) just fancy the experience.. Useful website www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk who are allegedly independent and will adjudicate your case for you. Got to wait now for the Notice To Owner letter and then i can make a formal representation which then gives me another 2 months grace. Would be nice to win as i then have a parking place in Liverpool...till they paint yellow line !
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 27th Nov 2018 12:07am

This one still rumbling on . All adds to the rich tapestry of life . Had my informal and formal appeals rejected. Have now escalated it to the traffic tribunal. Bing maps has provided me with some fantastic evidence that a yellow line has never existed where i parked. A new kerbline was added because it was originally a turning / pull in. The new strip of tarmac came about because they installed a new kerbline across the turn in. The bing aerials shows the line of the original yellow line. I have asked if Liverpool Council have proof of when they dug up the tarmac and evidence of a yellow line ever existing there. Fun and games
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 27th Nov 2018 12:59am

Your suspicions are quite correct, there has never been a yellow line there, this was a vehicular entrance to the previous building and the pavement stopped either side, after that building was knocked down it was used as a car park with this bit as its entrance, then Falkland House was built and while they put a pavement and kerb across it didn't have the yellow line.

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Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 27th Nov 2018 5:08pm

Yep thats one of the photos i found. Also one when Falkland house was there and it was a little pull in. My lad was there few weeks back and took another photo and still no yellow line painted. Makes the councils statement that a " reasonable person could logically conclude that a yellow line was there" seem rather weak.. We will see.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 6th Dec 2018 12:56pm

Rather uneventful telephone parking tribunal because Liverpool City didnt want to take part and would rely on the adjudicators decision. Had all my "guns" loaded and powder dry. Adjudicator (expert lawyer in parking matters) ran through his take on all the evidence gave me chance to state my case but cut me short to say I wouldnt need to pay the fine! Felt like Citizen Smith "Power to the people". I did ask the lawyer if i could park there again and he said my case would be weaker knowing Liverpool Council dont want you parking there and they should have yellow line painted. He said if somebody else parked there and was ticketed they would have the same grounds to appeal that i used.
Posted By: diggingdeeper

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 6th Dec 2018 2:07pm

Well done, should never have come about in first place, if there is no indication you shouldn't park there why on earth did anyone assume you can't. It is about as ludicrous as it would have been if they charged you for blocking the entrance that no longer exists.

Lawyer's reply is him playing safe, there are loads of things the Council don't want to happen and is totally irrelevant to any legal case.

You going to put in a small claims for loss of earnings due to the time spent pratting around with the case? It would be hard to see how any quantifiable loss wouldn't win.
Posted By: fish5133

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 6th Dec 2018 6:03pm

If theres never been a yellow line there for last 7 or 8 years I wonder how many other tickets they have issued for that spot since they put the kerb in. Will read the small print about claims but not that bothered. It was worth it for the ride.
Posted By: Gibbo

Re: Another Parking Ticket - 7th Dec 2018 9:45am

Great outcome, I said you'd win back in June!
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